AI squad building is still terrible, seems exactly the same as FM 23

Players like Gavi and Zaire Emery have basically never been used in the first 15ish games of the seasons. Their managers have been basically using the same lineup (with higher CA players) for the entire start of the season.

Very disappointing

Yeah, it's stopping me from wanting to bother playing a long-term save. I have no idea what's actually been fixed or what's meant to be different here from FM23. I simmed three seasons to test, and the squad building is seriously awful. It might even be worse than FM23, and that was pretty bad. I checked Real Madrid to see what's going on there - they haven't even attempted to sign a striker since Joselu's loan period ended, and now have Rodrygo only in that position. Only 20 players in total in the first team too. Alvaro Rodriguez is 20 years old and played 8 first team games as a sub (16 starts and 14 sub appearances in Real Madrid B, so not really even doing well enough to be anything other than a squad player in their reserves). Endrick has 25 games in the latest season - 3 starts and 22 sub appearances. He's the only natural striker in the squad and should really be getting ahead of Rodrygo. If the AI has deemed Endrick too young (at 19 years old), then it should try to sign somebody older with a high ability to slot into the first team until he's prepped and ready to take the role.

Barcelona just straight up didn't try to replace Lewandowski with anybody after selling him for £24 million to Al-Nasr. Ansu Fati is just their main striker now, given the number 9, and that's that, despite primarily being a winger (see Rodrygo above) and being out-of-favour until that point, used as a squad player with 8 starts and 16 sub appearances before Barca decided he was great enough to be their main goal scorer. Victor Roque is their number 10 but has 6 starts and 19 sub appearances.

'Wonderkid' Fabio Miretti has played a total of 10 first team starts in three seasons. No loans. He was getting sub appearances in the first two seasons (32 in the first, 31 in the second). In the latest season? 1 first team appearance and 7 appearances off the subs bench. He was injured for 3 months that season until the winter, and since then he's been on the bench, but rarely ever put on the field. He just rots there now.

Oh, and Bayern signed an in-form Victor Osimhen for £86 million, and in his first season, he had one first team appearance and 19 sub appearances. Second season - 11 starts, 9 sub appearances. No major injuries at all; he's just backup to Kane and not being used. What a signing.

Winger Samuel Chukwueze is Milan's main striker now (????). As with Barcelona and Lewandowski, Milan didn't bother trying to replace Giroud with an actual striker after his retirement. This happened in FM23 where the AI managers would try to fit wingers into makeshift strikers, instead of looking at the overall squad and thinking 'what positions are we overstacked on?' and 'what does the team actually need?' It seems like the AI can't differentiate between natural positions or something, and sees players that can play multiple roles and think 'that's great!' instead of looking at it as something that it can fall back on if it ever has to (eg., your three actual out-and-out strikers are injured and you need somebody to play in that position). This happened in FM23 too and made journeyman saves really frustrating, because any time you'd go to a new club, nothing would've been built before you got there. I remember Real Madrid replaced Karim Benzema with Datro Fofana (who previously couldn't get a look-in as a winger in the squad before Benzema's retirement) - the AI Ancelotti just used him for a few seasons instead of buying a replacement. He had a 12 finishing attribute to top it off.

Zaire-Emery is currently in PSG2 at 20 years old. He's been marked unavailable for loan and is barely getting near the first team. It's actually gotten less likely he'll get on the first team as time has passed - he was given 7 first team appearances in the second season, then 0 first starts and 4 sub appearances in the third. Gavi's had a mixed experience where he was given 15 first team appearances along with 16 sub appearances, then he was suddenly considered first team in the second season with 31 appearances (only 1 sub), and now he's back to the way things were in the first season.

Edited October 22, 2023 by tezcatlipoca665

Following this. This issue has been plaguing FM for a while. Once you notice it, it kills the immersion.

 

Hopefully once FM goes live we can pass over detailed analysis on this. Over the past few editions, some posters have done some great work highlighting this issue for the FM team.

Edited October 23, 2023 by michael21

I simmed another 3 seasons forward and created another thread with some more of my findings. I really hope they fix this, because I'd love to do a proper journeyman save and be able to move into a team that's already got at least some kind of structure as multiple seasons go by, regardless of whether I agree with the direction the previous manager went in or not. I just want squad transfers, team building and rotations to at least make some kind of sense.
 

 

I really hope we are going to get some answers from the developers on the matter. This is completely unacceptable, borderline scamming your customers. There is literally ZERO difference in squad building, if anything it got worse. We deserve an answer.

Following this closely and yes we are still in beta but this was a headline feature so it simply must be drastically improved.

It’s a little concerning that there are no official responses or acknowledgements. Likewise I’d hope the main streamers draw attention to it.

I got a reply in my thread saying that the issues were known and being looked into, so hopefully everything described both in here and in there will be fixed!

4 ore fa, tezcatlipoca665 ha scritto:

I got a reply in my thread saying that the issues were known and being looked into, so hopefully everything described both in here and in there will be fixed!

Problem is this is the answer I’ve been getting for the last 2 years

1 hour ago, abcdf said:

Problem is this is the answer I’ve been getting for the last 2 years

I only recently returned to the series myself after a long time not playing, so I haven't even seen how the previous two games were. If this is the case, and if this isn't fixed, this is legitimately the last FM I buy, and I'll happily skip the next generation of the games from FM25-onwards. I'm only interested in long-term saves and moving around from club-to-club - I don't want to dominate with one team after a few seasons pass by just because the AI managers can't figure out how to buy players for their tactics, find adequate cover for positions, nor plan ahead.

3 hours ago, tezcatlipoca665 said:

I only recently returned to the series myself after a long time not playing, so I haven't even seen how the previous two games were. If this is the case, and if this isn't fixed, this is legitimately the last FM I buy, and I'll happily skip the next generation of the games from FM25-onwards. I'm only interested in long-term saves and moving around from club-to-club - I don't want to dominate with one team after a few seasons pass by just because the AI managers can't figure out how to buy players for their tactics, find adequate cover for positions, nor plan ahead.

Unfortunately, not enough people think like this. In my experience the vast majority just want to win and really don't pay much attention to what's going on outside their own club. When you look just below the surface you quickly realise that the AI teams are regressing from the moment you started playing your save and are incapable of even maintaining a squad let alone building one. That's a black hole for me, I can't invest hundreds of hours in something that's not functioning on such a basic level. 

It's been announced as a Headline Feature, that's not something they'd just "make up" so I think it's safe to say they are still working hard at getting it right. From everything I've seen and read its like the improvements aren't even part of the beta release because if anything the introduction of Saudi Arabia as an entity willing to over pay for players has actually made the situation worse than previous versions. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by janrzm

I couldn’t tested it yet,but if this is this way, I don’t expect this to be solved. There was a change in FM22 that broke the development and the AI transfer and it must be so difficult to solve

I submitted another ticket about this earlier, hopefully they'll look into it, but, you know...

 

12 hours ago, janrzm said:

Unfortunately, not enough people think like this. In my experience the vast majority just want to win and really don't pay much attention to what's going on outside their own club. When you look just below the surface you quickly realise that the AI teams are regressing from the moment you started playing your save and are incapable of even maintaining a squad let alone building one. That's a black hole for me, I can't invest hundreds of hours in something that's not functioning on such a basic level. 

It's been announced as a Headline Feature, that's not something they'd just "make up" so I think it's safe to say they are still working hard at getting it right. From everything I've seen and read its like the improvements aren't even part of the beta release because if anything the introduction of Saudi Arabia as an entity willing to over pay for players has actually made the situation worse than previous versions. 

Yeah, even when I see FM streamers and content creators on YouTube, they're really insular and only pay attention to their own clubs. YT recommended a video to me yesterday of some guy showing how central defenders with poor finishing make great strikers, but he wasn't saying it as a criticism - he was just telling people that it was a great way to perform well in FM24 and that everyone should try it out. I don't understand how people use things like plug-and-play tactics and exploits and not consider them as game flaws. If you're constantly winning with mediocre clubs and making them world-beaters in less than 10 seasons, it's not because you're a great manager - it's because your competition is bad. Idk, I guess people really are happy just winning regardless of why it's happening.

5 horas atrás, tezcatlipoca665 disse:

Yeah, even when I see FM streamers and content creators on YouTube, they're really insular and only pay attention to their own clubs. YT recommended a video to me yesterday of some guy showing how central defenders with poor finishing make great strikers, but he wasn't saying it as a criticism - he was just telling people that it was a great way to perform well in FM24 and that everyone should try it out. I don't understand how people use things like plug-and-play tactics and exploits and not consider them as game flaws. If you're constantly winning with mediocre clubs and making them world-beaters in less than 10 seasons, it's not because you're a great manager - it's because your competition is bad. Idk, I guess people really are happy just winning regardless of why it's happening.

unfortunately thats exactly how the majority of people think and we are the annoying ones.....

@Kyle Brown could we get some sort of answer?? Is this being looked into? Is it going to be solved?

I'll second that. Very concerning that the AI completely fails to develop young players. Saw another Ticket here regarding squad rotation that might me related to this issue. Hopefully this gets fixed for the full release.
 

Some examples from a two season sim:







 

11 ore fa, Rofocale ha scritto:

I'll second that. Very concerning that the AI completely fails to develop young players. Saw another Ticket here regarding squad rotation that might me related to this issue. Hopefully this gets fixed for the full release.
 

Some examples from a two season sim:







 

Squad rotation is probably one of the biggest components of the issue. AI does not rotate, even when their key players are super tired

Hello everybody, thank you for posting we appreciate the feedback. 

To answer some of your questions:

. We have identified an issue which is causing a lack of rotation with AI teams. We are looking to make changes/improvements to this in future updates.

. Another known issue we're investigating is the AI not using their substitutions enough during games.

. In terms of the AI making transfers, there will always be instances of new signings not playing or making the breakthrough at new clubs. It was not our intention to make the AI transfer market mistake free.

- If you have good examples of bad transfers or poor squad building, then we will need save games provided at the start of transfer windows, or just before bids for players are made, in order to fully investigate, thank you.

The changes we have made to AI Squad Building for FM24 cover some of these other aspects:

- A players form is considered more when the AI target a player for a transfer, so you might see a player from a less high profile league but in good form getting moves to bigger leagues
- AI managers targeting players based on their tactical style more. For example a Wing Play manager will look for pacy wide players and target men strikers, Control Possesion manager will look for Techinchal Central Defenders, Gegenpress manager will look for energetic midfielders etc
- Managers will now better identify gaps in their squad based off their style and look to make signings suited to their style to fill those gaps
- These tactical styles will also help to improve user and AI manger decisions when sending young players out on loan to better aid their development
- Some managers will now have more of a preference for PA in backup/rotation shortlist slots than in previous versions. Where CA would be preferred resulting in ageing players often being signed for backup/rotation slots.
- A review of how players reputation can increase/decrease based off of in match performances, meaning that players reputation can increase/decrease more naturally over the course of a save game

39 minutos atrás, Zachary Whyte disse:

Hello everybody, thank you for posting we appreciate the feedback. 

To answer some of your questions:

. We have identified a key issue which is causing a lack of rotation with AI teams. We are looking to make changes/improvements to this in future updates.

. Another known issue we're investigating is the AI not using their substitutions enough during games.

. In terms of the AI making transfers, there will always be instances of new signings not playing or making the breakthrough at new clubs. There is still and always will be bad transfers just as there are in real life (and with human FM players), it is not our intention to make the AI transfer market mistake free.

The changes we have made to AI Squad Building for FM24 cover the following aspects:

- A players form is considered more when the AI target a player for a transfer, so you might see a player from a less high profile league but in good form getting moves to bigger leagues
- AI managers targeting players based on their tactical style more. For example Wing Play manager will look for pacy wide players and target men strikers, Control Possesion manager will look for Techinchal Central Defenders, Gegenpress manager will look for energetic midfielders etc
- Managers will now better identify gaps in their squad based off their style and look to make signings suited to their style to fill those gaps
- These tactical styles will also help to improve user and AI manger decisions when sending players out on loan
- Some managers will now have more of a preference for PA in backup/rotation shortlist slots than in previous versions. Where CA would be preferred resulting in ageing players often being signed for backup/rotation slots.
- A review of how players reputation can increase/decrease based off of in match performances, meaning that players reputation can increase/decrease more naturally over the course of a save game
- Our testing and the debug tools we have indicate this has had a positive effect on AI transfer behaviour and this has changed since FM24

The changes we've made are covered in this blog post - https://www.footballmanager.com/features/smarter-transfers-squad-building-and-finance 

If you have good examples of bad transfers or poor squad building, then we will need save games provided at the start of transfer windows, or just before bids for players are made, in order to fully investigate, thank you.

Hi Zachary,

 

Thank you for providing an update to us, Its good to know that we dont loose time when we try to point some issues that we think that shouldnt be happening.

Im happy with what you said and I agree with you about the topic of how you think transfers should occur over time, but, about the substituissions issue, I really hope you dont let pass this other one that Ive opened in another thread. I know you have put it under review, and even if you guys can fix the substituition issue, please make it look like if it was a real manager changing the players. It doesnt matter if substituitions happen or not if AI just replaces defenders by other defenders when its loosing. Substitutions have to work, but, it has to make sense. AI managers need to have (or at least try to have) options in the bench for every position in theyre system and should prioritize attacking players like a real manager does in real life, because those are the players that get off of the match most of the time. If AI looks for players in the transfer market that fit like a glove in theyre tactical system, the bench needs to have the same logic, needs different players that are ready to play in any position in case of an inury, by one of the starters playing bad, it doesnt matter, even if the the only attacking player available to be in the bench is a 17yo, AI must call him to the game, thats how youngster are unvealed many times in real life, by an unexpected opportunty. What it doesnt need, is a bench like Man City in one of the images i attached,

Hope the issue is related to mine and all goes well when the full game is released.

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by FASP

Ever since FM 2022, AI manager has sucked with development and transfers. It's like they are purposefully trying to make it worse to make the game easier for casuals.

Il 27/10/2023 in 19:53 , Zachary Whyte ha scritto:

Hello everybody, thank you for posting we appreciate the feedback. 

To answer some of your questions:

. We have identified an issue which is causing a lack of rotation with AI teams. We are looking to make changes/improvements to this in future updates.

. Another known issue we're investigating is the AI not using their substitutions enough during games.

. In terms of the AI making transfers, there will always be instances of new signings not playing or making the breakthrough at new clubs. It was not our intention to make the AI transfer market mistake free.

- If you have good examples of bad transfers or poor squad building, then we will need save games provided at the start of transfer windows, or just before bids for players are made, in order to fully investigate, thank you.

The changes we have made to AI Squad Building for FM24 cover some of these other aspects:

- A players form is considered more when the AI target a player for a transfer, so you might see a player from a less high profile league but in good form getting moves to bigger leagues
- AI managers targeting players based on their tactical style more. For example a Wing Play manager will look for pacy wide players and target men strikers, Control Possesion manager will look for Techinchal Central Defenders, Gegenpress manager will look for energetic midfielders etc
- Managers will now better identify gaps in their squad based off their style and look to make signings suited to their style to fill those gaps
- These tactical styles will also help to improve user and AI manger decisions when sending young players out on loan to better aid their development
- Some managers will now have more of a preference for PA in backup/rotation shortlist slots than in previous versions. Where CA would be preferred resulting in ageing players often being signed for backup/rotation slots.
- A review of how players reputation can increase/decrease based off of in match performances, meaning that players reputation can increase/decrease more naturally over the course of a save game

Has the rotation issue been somehow fixed/improved with full release?

 

6 minutos atrás, abcdf disse:

Has the rotation issue been somehow fixed/improved with full release?

subtitutions keep happening late and just 2 or 3 subs are made .... AI keeps calling just defenders to the banch so it cant subsitute attacking players,,,, im really disapointed because it seems the same game that we played so far. Hope this happens because today was just to make the full release of the game in order to be available for everyone  and theyre planning to do a release with a huge update in the next weeks with the bug fixes....

9 minuti fa, FASP ha scritto:

 

subtitutions keep happening late and just 2 or 3 subs are made .... AI keeps calling just defenders to the banch so it cant subsitute attacking players,,,, im really disapointed because it seems the same game that we played so far. Hope this happens because today was just to make the full release of the game in order to be available for everyone  and theyre planning to do a release with a huge update in the next weeks with the bug fixes....

Ok so we’re altrady saying that in order to deliver what was advertised by THEM they will need some more weeks after full release. Great. And on some other post they called me whiny because I said that not posting a changelog after full release was a least a bit suspicious.

great, just great.

Edited November 6, 2023 by abcdf

The first match of this image was played today, with the full game downloaded and installed. Its an AI match.

 

2 subs made at the 91st minute....

 

Look at this banch...... 5 defenders, 4 of them are center backs, not even a single winger. The 9th sub that is missing in this image but we can see in the match statistics its just a joke

 

A 15 YO wonderkid, yet... another defender, making a total of 5 center backs out of 6 defenders in a banch of 9 players... this is just pathetic SI im sorry to tell you, the ME feels so good and then this takes away any kind of joy for players that like realism, specially if we talk about AI Managers.

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by FASP