What I really want in FM09 tactics

[jefflackey]

I've been playing FM for many years. I'm a real fan of career sports sims, text based, and I think FM sets the bar. In most ways, FM is really at least as much a role playing game as a sports game, IMO. I love to start unemployed as an experienced but not famous footballer, see if some team will take a chance on me, and see if I can develop a career that leads to the "big leagues" and, if it doesn't, that's life, and at some point when my FM persona gets old enough it's time to retire, I retire, then start a new game.

That said, at one point I got into the whole approach of trying to find some tactic online that would let me win every game, dominate, take my lower league team to the Premiership and make Man United fear me.

But recently I realized that approach negates the strength of FM (for me) which is the role playing part. A tactic that lets me take a LL team composed of part time players and suddenly allow them to compete at a high level and win almost every game is just not realistic.

After playing around with a lot of tactics, what I want is a tactic that allows my team to play the way they should play, given the talent they have. A tactic that allows them to win and maximize their skills and teamwork, but one that is "realistic" if that makes sense. I should win by getting the right combination of talent, watching how they play together, making intelligent decisions on the lineups, etc. and employing a tactic that maximizes their abilities, but not one that exploits the AI. I want the players to play in positions that real footballers play in, play in styles that is realistic football and not "gamey", etc.

Along those lines, I'm dissapointed in what I'm reading about the team talks. It seems to have a disproportionate level of influence and impact on results. I never played professionally, but I played for 4 years at the college level, and did some coaching, and while team talks have some impact, they certainly don't usually dominate the result. I get the feeling that my team talks have as much to do with winning and losing as the tactics and player decisions. They should have a very minor effect in most cases. If we're playing our hated rivals in a cup final, I really shouldn't have to be careful about what I say and how I say it pre-game and half-time: these guys are pros and don't need me to tell them how important it is. Sure, I may need to tell a young kid who just got put in the starting line-up, hey, I have faith in you, just get out there and play to win and don't play "not to lose" and you'll be fine. But I almost feel like there's a rock scissors paper game going on with the team talks that feels out of place and gamey, in what I know was intended to be an attempt to add more realism.

Just the two cents/pennies/phennigs/yen from a long time CMer, fwiw.

[TPA]

I'm not sure if team talks have very much influence really. I have assigned team talks and all that media stuff to my assistant. Once in a while may correct something if I disagree what he wants to say but most of the time I don't really bother.

[jefflackey]

I'm not sure if team talks have very much influence really. I have assigned team talks and all that media stuff to my assistant. Once in a while may correct something if I disagree what he wants to say but most of the time I don't really bother.

There are a number of threads on here regarding team talks that appear to show they have a huge impact.

[isuckatfm]

There are a number of threads on here regarding team talks that appear to show they have a huge impact.

I'm not doubting they have an effect but generalisations on here should be taken with a grain of salt. I've seen others post as such complaining about an AI comeback but on the rare occasion they post a pkm of the match there's usually a change in AI tactics that plays a part.

What you need to do is decide if you want to adjust. An example

- player A is 'fired up'

- he is directly opposite my player B

- consequently player A is taking the ball from player B consistently with strong tackles

- what you see is player A consistently winning back possession before player B can even get it under control

You then have choices

- create greater separation generally (mentality, forward runs, width)

- if you have a stronger alternative player who might hold off the challenge, make a change

- set up so Player B gets rid of the ball as quickly as possible (Run with Ball lower, tempo higher, provide supporting outlets)

Before I get flamed by someone who has suffered 2 goals in 5 miutes after half time, I'll say this is just my opinion on things you can control Whether or not team talks boost players beyond their means when attacking is another story.

Also before Run With Ball fans attack me, yes it does limit the player in attacking but my own choice is that it is the lesser of two evils for that scenario. I'd rather keep possession and do little with it than just concede it right back because my player can't deal with a fired up, hard tackling defender.

[Zebedee77]

It's all a bit of everything really, isn't it?

The greatest team talk in the world won't cover up serious tactical problems. Likewise the greatest tactics ever won't be so successful if you're giving the worst teamtalks in the history of mankind. And neither will really allow truly awful players for their level to become world beaters on a regular basis (although they will allow for over-achievement).

I've noticed that the mythology around 'teamtalks being too powerful' does have some basis in truth. The actual explanation of them being 'too powerful' seems to be incorrect, but it is possible to turn things round with teamtalks in specific circumstances. Those circumstances are when you have a set of tactics which should give your team a chance but players who are grossly underperforming. If you can then turn this motivational issue around, or even trigger a major player reaction to your teamtalks, then you will then see a better performance second-half, and the opposition will suffer demotivating match events (conceding goals being a big one) which could trigger a collapse in their motivation which will further heighten the gulf, leading to potentially more goals being scored...

AM teamtalks seem to actually be very 'neutral' - you'll rarely get amazing results, but likewise, you'll rarely get truly shocking results from them (by results, I mean in terms of motivating or demotivating your players). And there are dangers in trying to motivate your players - while you can potentially trigger a match-winning performance, you could also wind the player up so much he goes out to break legs, or you could demotivate him so much that he loses all confidence in his own ability and performs even worse. It's not quite so deterministic or easy to judge to make it broken. The more you play with it, the more you understand, and the less you really 'know', has been my experience.

[SFraser]

What was it Benitez was supposed to have said at half time in Istanbul? "Give yourself the chance to be heroes"? I'm pretty sure that would have made the hairs stand up on the back of the neck for a couple of the lads in the dressing room.

It reminds me quite a lot of the folklore Ferguson teamtalks like when 3-0 down to Tottenham at half time, "score next and you have them".

You can almost feel the veins sticking out in the respective captains of those teams.

As a lifelong United fan and an absolute worshipper of Ferguson, if one thing stands out from the last 16 years of English football it is man management, the motivation of personalities and the commitment of players. Alas I am only 26 and cannot remember much before Cantona. As far as I am concerned it is motivation and man management that is the decisive factor in competitive league football and this game represents that element to a degree.

[TPA]

There are a number of threads on here regarding team talks that appear to show they have a huge impact.

Fair enough. I haven't noticed any difference in performance when I handled team-talks by myself instead of AM. Maybe they have a huge impact and I had just picked wrong team-talks, I don't know. I might do much better if I always did team-talks by myself instead of AM. But that's not the way I want to play the game. If you don't like doing team-talks, then don't. Simple as that. Peace :-)

[jefflackey]

Well, to be fair, since I play FM in a role playing manner rather than a "gamey" manner - i.e. I play as if I am actually the manager and do what I think a real manager would do, rather that try to figure out the "tricks," I do just say what I think I would say in a real world situation, to the team and individuals. My comment was only directed at those threads that seem to give the appearance that half the game is figuring out the team talk (in fact, one popular thread says to forget the words in the team talk and don't think of what you'd do in real life, then proceeds to give "the formula."

[this_game_is_unrealistic]

What was it Benitez was supposed to have said at half time in Istanbul? "Give yourself the chance to be heroes"? I'm pretty sure that would have made the hairs stand up on the back of the neck for a couple of the lads in the dressing room.

It reminds me quite a lot of the folklore Ferguson teamtalks like when 3-0 down to Tottenham at half time, "score next and you have them".

You can almost feel the veins sticking out in the respective captains of those teams.

As a lifelong United fan and an absolute worshipper of Ferguson, if one thing stands out from the last 16 years of English football it is man management, the motivation of personalities and the commitment of players. Alas I am only 26 and cannot remember much before Cantona. As far as I am concerned it is motivation and man management that is the decisive factor in competitive league football and this game represents that element to a degree.

I believe Fergie's halftime team talk against Tottenham was, "I've ordered Howard Webb to give a penalty as soon as anyone dives in the box. Once that happens, Tottenham will be demoralized and we can come back to win!"

[this_game_is_unrealistic]

What was it Benitez was supposed to have said at half time in Istanbul? "Give yourself the chance to be heroes"? I'm pretty sure that would have made the hairs stand up on the back of the neck for a couple of the lads in the dressing room.

It reminds me quite a lot of the folklore Ferguson teamtalks like when 3-0 down to Tottenham at half time, "score next and you have them".

You can almost feel the veins sticking out in the respective captains of those teams.

As a lifelong United fan and an absolute worshipper of Ferguson, if one thing stands out from the last 16 years of English football it is man management, the motivation of personalities and the commitment of players. Alas I am only 26 and cannot remember much before Cantona. As far as I am concerned it is motivation and man management that is the decisive factor in competitive league football and this game represents that element to a degree.

I believe Fergie's halftime team talk against Tottenham was, "I've ordered Howard Webb to give a penalty as soon as anyone dives in the box. Once that happens, Tottenham will be demoralized and we can come back to win!"

[Tejaswi]

I believe Fergie's halftime team talk against Tottenham was, "I've ordered Howard Webb to give a penalty as soon as anyone dives in the box. Once that happens, Tottenham will be demoralized and we can come back to win!"

Your point being?

I'll be the first to admit that Fergie, although very good at tactics, isn't really the best there ever was. But he's probably the best ever in understanding players, their psychology and probably one of the best in using that to manage players. Man management his heavily underrated these days. The egos in the Chelsea dressing room and Scolari, Grant's comments after they've left and then Hiddink coming in and setting them right was the prime example. I believe FM can improve a lot more in the man management aspect, but since noone really knows what happens in the dressing room, it's really hard. Also, one of the most important ways in which you can manage players is during training sessions on the weekdays. That can't be implemented either because it makes the game just go on endlessly, way too long. And given that most of us here are transfer muppets, that'll bore the **** out of us.

It's perfect the way it is. Iron out a few bugs from the ME and keep improving it and I'm fine.

[Tejaswi]

I believe Fergie's halftime team talk against Tottenham was, "I've ordered Howard Webb to give a penalty as soon as anyone dives in the box. Once that happens, Tottenham will be demoralized and we can come back to win!"

Your point being?

I'll be the first to admit that Fergie, although very good at tactics, isn't really the best there ever was. But he's probably the best ever in understanding players, their psychology and probably one of the best in using that to manage players. Man management his heavily underrated these days. The egos in the Chelsea dressing room and Scolari, Grant's comments after they've left and then Hiddink coming in and setting them right was the prime example. I believe FM can improve a lot more in the man management aspect, but since noone really knows what happens in the dressing room, it's really hard. Also, one of the most important ways in which you can manage players is during training sessions on the weekdays. That can't be implemented either because it makes the game just go on endlessly, way too long. And given that most of us here are transfer muppets, that'll bore the **** out of us.

It's perfect the way it is. Iron out a few bugs from the ME and keep improving it and I'm fine.

[Zebedee77]

Well, to be fair, since I play FM in a role playing manner rather than a "gamey" manner - i.e. I play as if I am actually the manager and do what I think a real manager would do, rather that try to figure out the "tricks,"

The problem is that what you think you're saying to the players isn't always what the game engine thinks you're saying to the players. It's not 'gamey' to understand how top level man-managers work - that's on a par with saying that understanding how real-life tactics work is 'gamey'. Just different aspects of what a real-life manager must be able to do. Some are good at it, others aren't. Some follow the route of getting players in who will respond well to their inability to deal with personalities who don't respond to their man-management style, others are less constricted in this way.

[jefflackey]

The problem is that what you think you're saying to the players isn't always what the game engine thinks you're saying to the players. It's not 'gamey' to understand how top level man-managers work - that's on a par with saying that understanding how real-life tactics work is 'gamey'. Just different aspects of what a real-life manager must be able to do. Some are good at it, others aren't. Some follow the route of getting players in who will respond well to their inability to deal with personalities who don't respond to their man-management style, others are less constricted in this way.

Oh, I think we violently agree on this!

And that was my original comment. I've played at the university level for 4 years, managed a wee bit, understand man management and motivation (in fact, my current full time job is a high level technical director for a company, and I spend a good bit of time coaching my managers at my business the importance of motivation in getting the most out of our R&D team!) My issue is that it IS "gamey" because what we "say" in the virtual locker room is quite limited and the results/how the game engine interprets what we say is not at all clear. Thus the threads on here that discuss an almost rock/scissors/paper approach to what to click on in the team talks based on score, rating, etc.

[SFraser]

At the very root of gameplay there may well be a rock/paper/scissors element to the game and to be fair anything else when dealing with the context of motivation and man management in a game would likely produce far too much randomness for it to be viable.

Having said that the rock/scissors/paper gameplay requires alot of contextual awareness of personalities, match difficulty and perception, ingame actions and the root causes of motivation/demotivation events outside of teamtalks and that is all on match day. There is no tested evidence but there is plenty of circumstantial evidence and observation that short term motivation plays a large role in long term motivation, so that the teamtalk strategy that works in season 1 is less effective in season 2 and downright ineffective in season 3.

What is certainly true is that while match day teamtalks can have a big effect on results and short term motivation techniques can turn games around, over the longer term complacency and indifference is a massive issue and forces a different approach. Season 1 shows you the potency of half time teamtalks, season 3 demands that you consider not only the opponent and turning around the result but ensuring you actually turn up for the first half. Whether this is linked to your previous teamtalks or is just a factor of your results is irrelevant, it necessitates a different approach.

I believe Fergie's halftime team talk against Tottenham was, "I've ordered Howard Webb to give a penalty as soon as anyone dives in the box. Once that happens, Tottenham will be demoralized and we can come back to win!"

I was talking about the 5-3 reversal in 1999, although as you point out that is the second time Ferguson has sent a team out at half time 3-0 down against Tottenham and won the match by two clear goals in less than a decade. I think anyone that has followed Fergusons career understands that he is defined by his man management and motivation ability. You can practically hear him telling the United dressing room that the world doesn't think they can perform with Ronaldo gone, that they think United were a one trick pony and the pony has bolted the stable.