Open letter to SI

[midlothian]

Zoli, I think you were wrong to include the part about the skins... that's hardly a game-breaker, even if you don't like it. I don't want SI to waste their time creating additional custom skins, that's for the fans who provide absolute top-notch ones.

A külcsíny meg a belbecs viszonya, ugyebár...

[weeeman27bob]

I think it's pretty hard thinking that this is not a fictional letter.

Some comments made me "lol".

4. Less bugs, less patches.

5. Indeed.

6. For the 10th time.. Improving things like the press conferences, or tweaking the confidence system wouldn't take more resources away. People just say things..

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fiction

So if it's a fictional letter it doesn't contain any fact then? So it's all rubbish.

4. Ideally yes, but in practice it isn't going to happen

5. I'm just going to ignore this one, because I think it's pretty obvious that you're just being irritating for the sake of it.

6. So all these new features below, you want them but you want the game to require lower specifications? That would be quite hard to achieve.

I do agree though that we need press conferences fixed/changed slightly, but I never suggested that would require more resources.

Finally, focus more on minor things.

Confidence system is a brilliant idea. Make it perfect! It still has flaws.

Focus more on minor leagues and the development of minor teams. After winning the Champions League, I don’t want my board to tell me that I can only scout in Europe + Argentina and Brazil. After I win 5 UCL titles, I don’t want a player to tell me that I’m not good enough for him, even if I’m from the snowy and rather cold Russia.

Focus more on player development. It’s not perfect, despite many people having great ideas.

Show us a thing or two about the upcoming tactics system. We are curious and it sucks not being able to prepare for it. Hopefully yous manage to allow us to place players in every position, not just in the 20 dots you are allowing us to do now.

Update training. New 7 star coaching is a step on the right direction. Make training even more important though. Make players having a hard time fulfilling their potential.

Multiplayer games are boring. Add spice, or limit system resource-needs, to make it accessible for people with bad connections.

Stop focusing so much on England. Majority of people play there and I think you are to blame. Partially. We have 20 or something English leagues and 3 from Spain or Italy. You think other people don’t buy your games? Newsflash, the internet is full of foreign sites!

If possible, give us more options in the Editor. Many essential things are hard-coded and a touch of an expert is needed to realize simple things as adding nations.

[weeeman27bob]

I should say though, I'm not sitting on my high horse somewhere suggesting that SI are perfect and you're an idiot. ( Although both might be true )

Of the ideas you suggested in your opening post I like 1,4 and 6. I'd love for less bugs, less resources needed and more attention to detail in features.

I'm just arguing with your logic over some points. It's quite clear that some of your ideas aren't going to work or aren't going to be as effective as you'd have liked.

[Wiitastic]

I will openly chop my dick off on webcam and broadcast it live ont he internet when I see a sports game of this nature released without any bugs, I'm that confident it will never happen in my lifetime.

And with so many players in world soccer, it is impossible to get 100% of the information correct. And as for skins ? I must be plain & dull, because I use the default skin every year.

If you want future FM releases to run better, Update your computer, it's not hard to do that & these days it is reasonably cheap as prices keep going down on computer parts eg - RAM and processors.

But what I want is an improvement on the media side. Media Interviews needs to be expanded big time and limited ! Media interviews should be limited to star player signings, retirements & last but noit least, big games like derbys or important league games which also include Cup Finals.

And how many times will I have to enquire about Managerial contracts ? it was told to us that it would be included in FM08 & FM09, alas it didn't appear in either.

[weeeman27bob]

I will openly chop my dick off on webcam and broadcast it live ont he internet when I see a sports game of this nature released without any bugs, I'm that confident it will never happen in my lifetime.

And with so many players in world soccer, it is impossible to get 100% of the information correct. And as for skins ? I must be plain & dull, because I use the default skin every year.

If you want future FM releases to run better, Update your computer, it's not hard to do that & these days it is reasonably cheap as prices keep going down on computer parts eg - RAM and processors.

But what I want is an improvement on the media side. Media Interviews needs to be expanded big time and limited ! Media interviews should be limited to star player signings, retirements & last but noit least, big games like derbys or important league games which also include Cup Finals.

And how many times will I have to enquire about Managerial contracts ? it was told to us that it would be included in FM08 & FM09, alas it didn't appear in either.

You disgust me. I nearly threw up.

[bones2]

Thanks for you opinions ZoL!, we take our community very seriously and when we can we all take time out to read what you guys say and think. For future reference though I wouldn't speak on behalf of everyone - just yourself! Obviously we can't respond to every post and idea but we do as said, try to read as much as we can. In terms of fan sites and the infighting etc, I'd be interested to hear what you have to say regarding this in more detail so please email me at neil.brock[at]sigames.com about it.

Thanks.

Please do not take any notice of Zol regarding the release of patches. I would rather support a developer who patches faults in a game.

[ZoL!]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fiction

So if it's a fictional letter it doesn't contain any fact then? So it's all rubbish.

4. Ideally yes, but in practice it isn't going to happen

5. I'm just going to ignore this one, because I think it's pretty obvious that you're just being irritating for the sake of it.

6. So all these new features below, you want them but you want the game to require lower specifications? That would be quite hard to achieve.

I do agree though that we need press conferences fixed/changed slightly, but I never suggested that would require more resources.

As Los_ches said, it's pretty weird that you are getting hung up on the "behalf of" part. I think it is very obvious to distinguish the fictional part from the rest. It might be just me though.. Probably my education wasn't good enough.

4. Basically my point: FM has more bugs than other games at the start. Seen worse, but it's pretty bad. Don't get me wrong, I downloaded all the patches and I still play FM09. Played lots on it. I just think it has some issues which CAN be fixed.

5. Oh, please do so.

6. Fixing flaws won't take more resources. I might change my username to that.

Also I am glad that some agree, at least with some parts and that not everyone is willing to be negative about it. Apart from the fact that someone working for SI actually replied, I consider this to be a success.

[Wiitastic]

You disgust me. I nearly threw up.

But you still laughed !

[weeeman27bob]

As Los_ches said, it's pretty weird that you are getting hung up on the "behalf of" part. I think it is very obvious to distinguish the fictional part from the rest. It might be just me though.. Probably my education wasn't good enough.

4. Basically my point: FM has more bugs than other games at the start. Seen worse, but it's pretty bad. Don't get me wrong, I downloaded all the patches and I still play FM09. Played lots on it. I just think it has some issues which CAN be fixed.

5. Oh, please do so.

6. Fixing flaws won't take more resources. I might change my username to that.

Also I am glad that some agree, at least with some parts and that not everyone is willing to be negative about it. Apart from the fact that someone working for SI actually replied, I consider this to be a success.

You're starting to make actual sense now.

4. I'm not denying that there are too many bugs, or that some of them can't be fixed. All I'm saying, and not mainly directed at you, is that it's impossible not to make a game without any bugs.

6. Not all of the things you've suggested are flaws though. e.g Changing training, depending

on how you change it, could use more resources. More leagues and a different tactical appraoch would as well. Although not all of them would of course.

And yes I did laugh

[weeeman27bob]

Just read your last sentence though, and that makes no sense whatsoever.

Either you didn't want an SI person to reply and so because one did, it's not a success, or you did want one and one did post some stuff :confused:

[ZoL!]

@wee: Aye, just read through and it does make no sense. Still I'm Hungarian, living in Romania and I learned English from some drunk Scotsmen, so please forgive me

Wanted to say that success #1 is SI replying, success #2 is some people agreeing.

And I think there is a considerable amount of speed alteration between FM08 and 09. Really, I can't think of another reason than some of the features implemented. Mainly 3d, as this is the issue that can cause some more memory usage. Don't get me wrong, I like it and use it, but if my FM would go faster because I chose not to install it, then I wouldn't .

[weeeman27bob]

@wee: Aye, just read through and it does make no sense. Still I'm Hungarian, living in Romania and I learned English from some drunk Scotsmen, so please forgive me

Wanted to say that success #1 is SI replying, success #2 is some people agreeing.

And I think there is a considerable amount of speed alteration between FM08 and 09. Really, I can't think of another reason than some of the features implemented. Mainly 3d, as this is the issue that can cause some more memory usage. Don't get me wrong, I like it and use it, but if my FM would go faster because I chose not to install it, then I wouldn't .

Then your English is much better than my Hungarian and Romanian.

[.Hilikus]

To summarise a few things;

1. The game should be released in a better state then what is has been. We dont expect a bug free game, nor will we ever get one. But that's not to say what was dished up with FM09 was acceptable, it wasn't. There are bugs that simply shouldn't be missed during testing and passed off as good enough to include in the packaged game. Then require you to download a patch straight away just to fix those things.

Fix first, then release. Not release then fix.

You only have to see the amount of people coming here ****ing and moaning not long after they get the game.

2. Performance wise, FM09 is as slow as molasses compared to other versions. Processing between match days is much slower compared to before, even with minimal leagues loaded on a decent computer. This is quite evident when you switch back to FM08 or earlier, those games process and run so much smoother and quicker when up against FM09. Part of this is down to the inclusion of the 3D Engine, while the 2D engine in 09 is also laggy on a regular basis. Long gone are the days when you could complete a season in a good 6-8 hours, it now takes around that amount of time to get though half a season. Its one of the biggest annoyances to me, particularly when you consider the game is a glorified spreadsheet. Yet I can run games like Crysis smooth and problem free and it requires a greater system. Go figure.

3. Solidify the current game features before adding more new features. Adding new ones seems to take away attention from current ones that need work. Im greatly against the 3D Match engine, and felt including it took a lot of attention and time that could have been used fair more productively in getting sound moral and confidence features, press conferences, match engine tweaking etc.

Id rather less new features and have the current ones almost working in perfect order.

4. From a personal view I feel the tactical system could be changed up a bit and made a lot simpler, while still remaining in-depth and expansive. Sliders should be removed or have less notices, this will allow greater tactical control and will result in less fine tuning and tweaking, thus saving time. Telling a midfielder to play 18 mentality isnt really realistic and is to variable, IRL your either going to tell a player to be more attacking, balanced or defensive. 20 slider notches is far to extreme and could be done better. With its current state it does overcomplicate tactics and positions, because a player a notch or so to high or low can result in your entire tactic being either a success or flawed.

5. 3D Match Engine should be a optional install feature. I dislike it because its harder to assess you tactics and I being a older player of CM/FM, 2D engine makes the game what it is. I've had it turned off from day dot and have only used it a handful of times to record a couple goals/odd things. Disabling it is all well and good but it still effects the games overall speed, while takes more HDD space for something not being used. Let the individual decide if they want it or not, that way everyone wins. Those who dont will have a slightly quicker game, while those who want to view matches in the "glorious" 3D can.

Everyone's happy.

6. Transfer system could be improved and allow the user to have some more options/flexibility. Things like the ability to sign a player but loan them back straight away to the club they were at. Being able to have some more flexibility with Co-ownership deals, like if the player is at your club your still able to loan them out elsewhere. The Lanzafame situation I mentioned earlier on would be solved with such a thing.

Another thing that I've seen is top clubs like Man Utd sign basically 4-5 players over a 3-4 year period with all transfers in being Goalkeepers, leaving them with a really weak squad a few years in as they always have far more departures. Have also seen similar limited purchases by Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool, with majority of the time being players that arent needed and end up unhappy/sold the following transfer window or season.

7. Super Arsenal, yes I know but come on. Adebayor is not a 40+ a season goal scorer and they certainly are not the force they once were. I dont care what anyone says, but they are hugely overrated for some reason in FM.

8. Lastly, bring back some of the fun. FM is slowly turning itself into a full-time job with the amount of hours needed to actually play. There is no real pickup and play value like there once was and this will in-turn put people off, be it new or older players. The game is no longer suited to the casual gamer who just wants to manage a team and have some fun, without the need to invest the hours it currently takes.

SI really need to think hard about the direction they want to push the game, because many fans have already gone back and more will follow in the future if the games carries on as is.

9. Activation methods need a real thinking over and fix. Probably one of the biggest shambles of any game I've ever played has been the systems FM09 has used. Users shouldn't have to have such painstaking procedures to play a game.

--

Take the above as you will, not expecting much to be taken on board or agreed with but I feel they are all valid points.

[Hershie]

To summarise a few things;

1. The game should be released in a better state then what is has been. We dont expect a bug free game, nor will we ever get one. But that's not to say what was dished up with FM09 was acceptable, it wasn't. There are bugs that simply shouldn't be missed during testing and passed off as good enough to include in the packaged game. Then require you to download a patch straight away just to fix those things.

Fix first, then release. Not release then fix.

You only have to see the amount of people coming here ****ing and moaning not long after they get the game.

It seems to be the same people over and over again. There were bugs in the initial release, but this were soon patched. Even with them the game was hardly unplayable

2. Performance wise, FM09 is as slow as molasses compared to other versions. Processing between match days is much slower compared to before, even with minimal leagues loaded on a decent computer. This is quite evident when you switch back to FM08 or earlier, those games process and run so much smoother and quicker when up against FM09. Part of this is down to the inclusion of the 3D Engine, while the 2D engine in 09 is also laggy on a regular basis. Long gone are the days when you could complete a season in a good 6-8 hours, it now takes around that amount of time to get though half a season. Its one of the biggest annoyances to me, particularly when you consider the game is a glorified spreadsheet. Yet I can run games like Crysis smooth and problem free and it requires a greater system. Go figure.

Of course the game requires more CPU and processing power, just as CM01/02 requires more than CM2. You can't seriously expect SI to hold back on their game development for the sake of some people's aging computers? Even on lower end machines, the game still works fine.

3. Solidify the current game features before adding more new features. Adding new ones seems to take away attention from current ones that need work. Im greatly against the 3D Match engine, and felt including it took a lot of attention and time that could have been used fair more productively in getting sound moral and confidence features, press conferences, match engine tweaking etc.

Id rather less new features and have the current ones almost working in perfect order.

[/Quote]SI can't win. If they focus on improvements they're called unambitious, and if they try new things they're accused of not putting in the effort they should on other features. Just because you don't like 3D doesn't mean SI can't implement it, or that others don't want it. With its inclusion, other areas were also improved, and as always, they will be improved for future versions. Do you seriously think SI would benefit from having a game missing so many of these features in exchange for a couple you prefer being slightly more polished, and pretty much neglecting the aim of realism?

SI have hired numerous new testers (me included) so expect better from FM10. Having said that though, do you really have anything to say constructive other than 'fix it'?

4. From a personal view I feel the tactical system could be changed up a bit and made a lot simpler, while still remaining in-depth and expansive. Sliders should be removed or have less notices, this will allow greater tactical control and will result in less fine tuning and tweaking, thus saving time. Telling a midfielder to play 18 mentality isnt really realistic and is to variable, IRL your either going to tell a player to be more attacking, balanced or defensive. 20 slider notches is far to extreme and could be done better. With its current state it does overcomplicate tactics and positions, because a player a notch or so to high or low can result in your entire tactic being either a success or flawed.

Yes it may not be realistic, but yet again I have to say that unless you can suggest a workable alternative your argument seems pretty pointless.

5. 3D Match Engine should be a optional install feature. I dislike it because its harder to assess you tactics and I being a older player of CM/FM, 2D engine makes the game what it is. I've had it turned off from day dot and have only used it a handful of times to record a couple goals/odd things. Disabling it is all well and good but it still effects the games overall speed, while takes more HDD space for something not being used. Let the individual decide if they want it or not, that way everyone wins. Those who dont will have a slightly quicker game, while those who want to view matches in the "glorious" 3D can. Everyone's happy.

To be honest I don't understand this at all. You can play without ever needing to use 3D, but to suggest that because of a few people disliking it it should be an optional install stinks of narrowmindedness to me. The space taken up is limited and a rather insignificant amount on any modern PC on which FM09 is designed to run.

6. Transfer system could be improved and allow the user to have some more options/flexibility. Things like the ability to sign a player but loan them back straight away to the club they were at. Being able to have some more flexibility with Co-ownership deals, like if the player is at your club your still able to loan them out elsewhere. The Lanzafame situation I mentioned earlier on would be solved with such a thing.

Another thing that I've seen is top clubs like Man Utd sign basically 4-5 players over a 3-4 year period with all transfers in being Goalkeepers, leaving them with a really weak squad a few years in as they always have far more departures. Have also seen similar limited purchases by Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool, with majority of the time being players that arent needed and end up unhappy/sold the following transfer window or season.

The other thing I maybe agree with. Transfers still need "sorting" but are certainly a vast improvement on past installments. Trying to transfer on an older game is infuriating compared to FM09.

7. Super Arsenal, yes I know but come on. Adebayor is not a 40+ a season goal scorer and they certainly are not the force they once were. I dont care what anyone says, but they are hugely overrated for some reason in FM.

Sigh. I really can't be a*sed saying it again. Read my previous posts, and if you have any specific issues post them in the data forum. It's more a match engine interpretation issue than an attribute-based problem. As in reality, Adebayor is a top-level striker with a very high level of technical and physical ability but less than perfect mental stats, or so it seems to me anyway. Debate it in the data forum if you want. The highlighted section really seems to be your overall problem.

8. Lastly, bring back some of the fun. FM is slowly turning itself into a full-time job with the amount of hours needed to actually play. There is no real pickup and play value like there once was and this will in-turn put people off, be it new or older players. The game is no longer suited to the casual gamer who just wants to manage a team and have some fun, without the need to invest the hours it currently takes.

SI really need to think hard about the direction they want to push the game, because many fans have already gone back and more will follow in the future if the games carries on as is.

I have to say FM09 is the most fun yet for me. I suggest you stop whinging about substance-less faults and actually try playing the game was a positive and sensible approach.

SI have lost very few fans really. About 50 people posting on a message board, most of whom are childishly attention seeking because they're bad at the game or because their PC isn't up to scratch is hardly an indication that CM10 is going to be the best thing since sliced bread. I think you should stop exaggerating and stop naively believing that because a few people are vocal in their largely unjust FM bashing that they share the views of the majority. The game is progressing rather nicely. Even compared to FM07 it is a class above and a huge leap forwards. Even if CM or FIFA are laced with flashy graphics I'll be very surprised if FM's long-term sales or popularity falters.

9. Activation methods need a real thinking over and fix. Probably one of the biggest shambles of any game I've ever played has been the systems FM09 has used. Users shouldn't have to have such painstaking procedures to play a game.

--

As already mentioned, SI have admitted there were problems and are looking towards new approaches and apologise for any problems. However again, the vocalness of the minority in voicing their displeasure does not hide the reality that the vast majority experienced little or no problems at all, and the majority of those who did had the patience and maturity to allow their problems to be resolved, in contrast to throwing a hissy fit.

[AcidBurn]

There was only one thing that really annoyed me about the game and that was the bug in Spain where the B team managers signed crap players on huge contracts. If it had not of been for real time editors that would have made Spain unplayable. As manager of Getafe I had a 470k wage budget and 100k of that was taken up by 4 players in the B team on 25k a week who were atrocious.

There were other bugs that annoyed me slightly but nothing that made the game unplayable.

The Arsenal issue does get annoying I am in 2021 and the only team that even comes close to my Sunderland side is Arsenal. Sure its a bit annoying but its because they have some world class players like they do in real life and the short passing quick tempo game works very well in the match engine. Combine that with the youth they have that is not over rated.

Arsenal have 4 players rated at -9 PA along with Vela and Walcott. Athletico Madrid have 7 players rated with a PA of -9 along with Aguero so are they over rated? Liverpool, Man Utd and Spurs all have 5 players with -9 PA so are they over rated aswell?

[clovis_kanda87]

No Software is completely bug free when it's released, it just doesn't happen. Especially something as big and complex as Football manager.

Common sense. Does anyone seriously think that it is possible to write millions of lines of code without making some errors, or discovering unexpected behaviour when it is all put together?

Well thats proof enough for me then! Oh, wait, no...someone's missed the word proof out, and there have backed up their claims with none.

I love FM, OK, FM '09 will not work on my PC to a satisfactory degree, not a problem, I still have FM '08.

But when people just cannot or will not backup impossible to prove claims then it gets my goat up, I'm not looking for an argument, all i'm asking for is proof, someone's opinion does not constitute as proof.

Now, I'm NOT saying it is possible to make a faultless out of the box game, nor am I saying it IS possible, because I cannot say that, I have no proof or evidance either for or against this argument, I just have my opinion.

Anyway, rant over, I'm sorry if anyone want's to argue, it's not my intention, but hey, theres now dafter than folk.

[weeeman27bob]

Well thats proof enough for me then! Oh, wait, no...someone's missed the word proof out, and there have backed up their claims with none.

I love FM, OK, FM '09 will not work on my PC to a satisfactory degree, not a problem, I still have FM '08.

But when people just cannot or will not backup impossible to prove claims then it gets my goat up, I'm not looking for an argument, all i'm asking for is proof, someone's opinion does not constitute as proof.

Now, I'm NOT saying it is possible to make a faultless out of the box game, nor am I saying it IS possible, because I cannot say that, I have no proof or evidance either for or against this argument.

Anyway, rant over, I'm sorry if anyone want's to argue, it's not my intention, but hey, theres now dafter than folk.

I can see completely where you're coming from.

But it's quite hard to argue either way.

[clovis_kanda87]

I can see completely where you're coming from.

But it's quite hard to argue either way.

totally agree. Could not have put it better myself, and in fact, I did'nt.

[bollekewol]

@bol

1. It's a fictional letter. I will include whatever I want in it

2. Lol. I have 50mil in balance and I can't scout the World. If you think this would happen in real life, then you clearly don't have any trace of logic.

3. See #1.

4. You don't get my point. I don't want patches. Not 3, in any case.

5. Lol again. I know there are lots of skins. They usually come out after a month from the release

6. Fixing press conferences would take away more resources? OK...

7. Majority of the Spanish 4th Div clubs and players are already in the database.

1. If you write utter lies in your fictional letter, you're getting nowhere. You are NOT representing the entire FM community, now that you realised this, you're making desperate attempts to minimize this which is quite sad.

2. You have misread me: money is NOT the only reason. I'm pretty sure Metallurg Donetsk has enough money but I very much doubt they can and will send scouts to everywhere in the world. It's more than money, even more than club rep and national rep.

4. Then don't buy any software. Like said multiple times: when you make a game, there will always be bugs, period. If you claim I have no trace of logic about the scouts, I can say the same about your idea of bugfree software.

5. So what's your point? There are official skins and a bit later a whole lot of skins gets out. Even if those are not your taste, you are free to make your own.

6. I didn't say that. I said that you don't want FM to get any heavier on your PC but you do wish "minor" extras get made (and older ones fixed). You also want more minor leagues... How are you going to get all of that into a lighter PC?

7. I wouldn't know about that, tbh. If so, there will be some very good reasons as to why SI can't include them going from licensing issues or having an outdated database or even the database not being complete with some clubs missing. You are free to PM the SI team about that, I guess.

[ZoL!]

1. If you write utter lies in your fictional letter, you're getting nowhere. You are NOT representing the entire FM community, now that you realised this, you're making desperate attempts to minimize this which is quite sad.

2. You have misread me: money is NOT the only reason. I'm pretty sure Metallurg Donetsk has enough money but I very much doubt they can and will send scouts to everywhere in the world. It's more than money, even more than club rep and national rep.

4. Then don't buy any software. Like said multiple times: when you make a game, there will always be bugs, period. If you claim I have no trace of logic about the scouts, I can say the same about your idea of bugfree software.

5. So what's your point? There are official skins and a bit later a whole lot of skins gets out. Even if those are not your taste, you are free to make your own.

6. I didn't say that. I said that you don't want FM to get any heavier on your PC but you do wish "minor" extras get made (and older ones fixed). You also want more minor leagues... How are you going to get all of that into a lighter PC?

7. I wouldn't know about that, tbh. If so, there will be some very good reasons as to why SI can't include them going from licensing issues or having an outdated database or even the database not being complete with some clubs missing. You are free to PM the SI team about that, I guess.

1. Utter lies, you say? You are an interesting chap.

2. And winning the UCL wouldn't get you a decent enough rep?

4. Less bugs is possible. Releasing a patched version is possible.

5. My point is that releasing an unofficial skin at the start would make the game better for many.

6. Loading up leagues is optional. You don't load a league, you won't consume more resources.

7. I shall.

Hey, I really don't want to argue, but you still seem to lack any trace of logic.

[bollekewol]

1. Utter lies, you say? You are an interesting chap.

2. And winning the UCL wouldn't get you a decent enough rep?

4. Less bugs is possible. Releasing a patched version is possible.

5. My point is that releasing an unofficial skin at the start would make the game better for many.

6. Loading up leagues is optional. You don't load a league, you won't consume more resources.

7. I shall.

Hey, I really don't want to argue, but you still seem to lack any trace of logic.

1. Thank you. And yes, I call "speaking for the entire FM community" an utter lie. Backing out of it when people clearly didn't agree with you (or only partly) isn't changing the fact you lied about representing the entiry FM community. Please refrain from coming up with the same dull line of just that part being fictional. Deal with facts or don't play at all.

2. It gives you rep, but you, as always, are very selective about what you wish to read: Rep isn't everything.

4. Have I ever said otherwise? No, I have said a bugfree version is impossible, that's it.

5. Yes, your 50%. Alas, yet another survey of yours I must have missed. There are official skins, there are unofficial skins... plenty to chose from. If the official skins bother you so much, wait a month with buying the game and you'll have a wide variety to chose from.

6. You, yet again, are being selective. You want extras, but don't want it to be heavy for the PC. How are you going to solve it? You want a game where you can only play one league? Quite some of your 50% unofficial skin lovers will hate you for that, I imagine... plus a lot of the other 50% for that matter.

[playmaker]

Well thats proof enough for me then! Oh, wait, no...someone's missed the word proof out, and there have backed up their claims with none.

I love FM, OK, FM '09 will not work on my PC to a satisfactory degree, not a problem, I still have FM '08.

But when people just cannot or will not backup impossible to prove claims then it gets my goat up, I'm not looking for an argument, all i'm asking for is proof, someone's opinion does not constitute as proof.

Now, I'm NOT saying it is possible to make a faultless out of the box game, nor am I saying it IS possible, because I cannot say that, I have no proof or evidance either for or against this argument, I just have my opinion.

Anyway, rant over, I'm sorry if anyone want's to argue, it's not my intention, but hey, theres now dafter than folk.

I spent 11 years working in software licensing and auditing, during which I have encountered around 20,000 applications (low estimate) in the course of compiling one of the most comprehensive databases of software in existence - mostly in the days of manually visiting PCs to audit them with a floppy disk. Those applications will have been physically run to verify details and around 2,000 key applications checked for Y2k compliance (i.e. bugs relating to date). I can tell you from direct experience and several thousands of hours of conversation with clients that not one single one of those applications is bug free. For the record it is a tedious as it sounds!

Is that enough proof?

[ZoL!]

1. Thank you. And yes, I call "speaking for the entire FM community" an utter lie. Backing out of it when people clearly didn't agree with you (or only partly) isn't changing the fact you lied about representing the entiry FM community. Please refrain from coming up with the same dull line of just that part being fictional. Deal with facts or don't play at all.

2. It gives you rep, but you, as always, are very selective about what you wish to read: Rep isn't everything.

4. Have I ever said otherwise? No, I have said a bugfree version is impossible, that's it.

5. Yes, your 50%. Alas, yet another survey of yours I must have missed. There are official skins, there are unofficial skins... plenty to chose from. If the official skins bother you so much, wait a month with buying the game and you'll have a wide variety to chose from.

6. You, yet again, are being selective. You want extras, but don't want it to be heavy for the PC. How are you going to solve it? You want a game where you can only play one league? Quite some of your 50% unofficial skin lovers will hate you for that, I imagine... plus a lot of the other 50% for that matter.

1. I can only echo Los_Ches' post again. You are mentally limited.

2. i have money and I have rep. Anything else?

5. My point is that releasing an unofficial skin at the start would make the game better for many.

6. Once again, you make no sense. A hex code is a hex code. By having an extra skin, with a different colour, you are not consuming more resources. By having more unloaded leagues, you don't consume more resources either.

[crouchaldinho]

Issues for which the likes of Maximilian Evans decided to send pornographic images to one of your employees, a while back.

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

C.

[Neil Brock]

I think this thread is done and not going anywhere, so I'm closing it. Cheers for everyone's input.