Tactics Creator - A Delusion of Presentation ?

[Svenc]

I can't really be bothered going in to it to be honest but all as I'll say to you is if you don't like the new tactic creator then don't use it and just use the sliders

Oh I like it, for what it is it's well done. I was merely questioning its ease of use, as well as that to me it looks like as if certain core issues aren't solved, is' all.

[Svenc]

Svenc - I believe things like counter-attack will actually be redefined in the new manual.

Taken from the online manual:

Counter Attack: The counter attack option is best used by an underdog facing a superior opponent or a team with players capable of launching attacks at high speed with a directness about their play. They will tend to sit back in their own half and allow the opposition to have the ball in ‘harmless’ positions before imposing pressure, taking the ball, and countering.

Nothing's changed whatsoever in this one, ditto all the other sliders and tick boxes. Much easier to communicate this via in-game visuals than text anyway. (Show, don't tell).

If you followed my line of posts my argument is that even the most simple means of control like those that look as if they'd fully explain themselves due to their name like

Passing Style

Passing style is fairly simple.

rather don't.

[Da_Funk]

@ Svenc what you've quoted about counterattack...

if that's true....can you check if with control/attacking behaviour, team instruction counterattack is on or not? Because if it is than:

- manual is wrong

- or tactic creator is wrong.

And it will be funny since tactic creator is based on wwefan guide

[TOUGHGUY]

The thing with the new tactics approach - which by itself looks nice and seems intuitive judging by the demo by the way - is that it's not solving things... or, in a way it is, but it doesn't seem to be the ideal solution. Obviously someone at SI knows how the sliders work, as in what actual impact they have on the match engine.

However we as players are presented with something that moves in the opposite direction. That is, not an explanation of the sliders, nor a deeper understanding of the game. But something that just hides the sliders from sight (however nice and user friendly it might be, as I said above).

That's my problem with all this. There still is the unintuitive slider part and it seems to be covered and glossed over instead of penetrated and explored. Once again despite my initial doubts the new interface looks very interesting, and I do like that apparently it was done with good understanding of the sliders in mind so the simplified settings do project well into the game itself.

But in the end it's either use the predefined settings, finely combining real world football theory and the match engine but that ultimately are limited and won't provide an insight into how the game works, or good luck fiddling with the sliders again.

[Da_Funk]

It is on, and maybe accusing the manual of being "wrong" is a bit harsh. The wording is a bit unfortunate, to say the least. If you'd wanted to play attacking football, the least you wanted to do is telling your side to "sit back in their own half", after all. Most weird of all, whilst it's on for "attack", it's put off for a "defensive" strategy, which is described like this, not in the manual, but in-game, this time.

I find it ok "off" on defensive (which is different from counter) cause you absolutely don't want to leave free spaces to the opposite team, and going on for counterattack may exploit your defense.

Since it is on(attacking), I'm thinking it can not be "sit back and counterattack" but "counterattack (steal ball & go forward") when you have the possibility".

Anyhow I find something "wrong" (ok it can not be the exact word ) because if it is "sit back & etc.." why is it on with a tactic with high D-Line and high mentality? I don't find it logic.

[Svenc]

what you've quoted about counterattack...

if that's true....can you check if with control/attacking behaviour, team instruction counterattack is on or not? Because if it is than:

- manual is wrong

It is on, and maybe accusing the manual of being "wrong" is a bit harsh. The wording is a bit unfortunate, to say the least. If you'd wanted to play attacking football, the least you wanted to do is telling your side to "sit back in their own half", after all. Most bizarre of all, whilst it's on for "attack", it's put off for a "defensive" strategy, which is described like this, not in the manual, but in-game, this time.

This strategy is best employed for matches that you are favourites to lose and in which you expect your opponent to put you under extended pressure.

It aims to keep men behind the ball, to restrict space in your half, to slow things down and frustrate the opposition.

It relies on direct balls to the forward followed by sharp and quick passing to score goals on the counter.

Tempo slow, counter-attack tick box, unticked. Now I was personally able to set-up a strategy that looked like a halfway-decent counter-strategy myself, but all of those relied on either quick tempo (quick passes to catch the opposition off-guard when advanced) and/or the counter attack tick box ticked. But then the tempo slider is one I'm personally not always that sure about either. Gladly I'm not alone.

However we as players are presented with something that moves in the opposite direction. That is, not an explanation of the sliders, nor a deeper understanding of the game. But something that just hides the sliders from sight (however nice and user friendly it might be, as I said above).

That's my problem with all this. There still is the unintuitive slider part

The main reason it's unituitive is because neither of the slider's basic effects is really covered anywhere, your only starting point out of the box is the manual, which either keeps it vague or downright contradicts the effect (see "counter attack"). Sure, sliders are "abstract". But such is any game trying to mimic football, or any other computer simulation, for that matter. There are a lot of games that work with sliders - it just needs be communicated what they are gradually meant to adjust in particular.

I find it ok "off" on defensive (which is different from counter) cause you absolutely don't want to leave free spaces to the opposite team, and going on for counterattack may exploit your defense.

Makes sense - but then at least in the manual it is described as a means of defense already, sitting back and all, only attacking if there's space and opportunity.

Since it is on(attacking), I'm thinking it can not be "sit back and counterattack" but "counterattack (steal ball & go forward") when you have the possibility".

Anyhow I find something "wrong" (ok it can not be the exact word ) because if it is "sit back & etc.." why is it on with a tactic with high D-Line and high mentality? I don't find it logic.

This makes sense (along with it being unticked for defensive strategies) if you read what had been said on the first page of this thread. Forget about the manual, what the counter attack tick box really does is overriding mentality settings when opportunity arrives and the opposition is pushed up and opens up space - taking opportunities is one thing this "attacking football" is about. You don't want to miss out on those chances when the opposition is pushed up on the counter. You want to nail those too.

Obviously this means that in this "defensive" match strategy mentality settings are overrided too, all of your players apply pressure - and this "defensive" strategy put into the tactics creator doesn't want to do that. The wording is unfortunate again, though. It's talking about "attacks on the counter".

It relies on direct balls to the forward followed by sharp and quick passing to score goals on the counter.

Doh.

[Vinnyvagus]

First of all I have not played much of the game yet (4 matches) but after looking at the Demo and reading the posts here, I must say I am liking the idea of the new Tactics Wizard to set up a template for your tactics. The one thing I have read in these forums is that as soon as you make individual changes using the slider bars (i.e. MC to play Direct Passes), the Touchline shouts during a game will not adjust these individual settings you made using the sliders. Not a problem but something "gamers" should be aware of as shouting to keep possesion from the touchline will not change your pre-game individual setting for your MC playing direct passes for example.

If you want to make adjustments to the individual settings I THINK therefore you will need to go into the tactics part of the game during the match...

As I say... I personaly like the new way we can work with tactics in 2010!