DK10 Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 While I agree with you, these players are 14. That is 2 years younger than most average regens. It would not surprise me one bit to see those attributes that are 1 in "key areas" (non phyisical of course) go up by 2-4 points each year for 5 years in a row. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverman Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 While I agree with you, these players are 14. That is 2 years younger than most average regens. It would not surprise me one bit to see those attributes that are 1 in "key areas" (non phyisical of course) go up by 2-4 points each year for 5 years in a row. so you are basically saying that the composure of a 14yr striker will go up from 2 to around 10-15 and the marking of the 14yr fullback from 1 to 10-15 ? i am quite sure it wont go over 6-7 max. they already have decent stats in other places and there is certainly no room for the unusually weak stat to leap more than 10 points. Thus, a player with high PA will be ab absolutely wasted IMO. i wud not play a striker with composure 5-6 in my league 1 team. This unusual balance ruins a lot of high PA regens for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hehehemann Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Any news if the generated faces will have a bigger variety? eg: more style of haircut A lot of my players in FM09 looked the same. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSCCG Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Determination is a mental stat which people have and cannot be trained in people, you cannot be trained to be more determined nor can you take it out from people. It is a definite stat and quality in people specific to them and is just the way they are much like people are brave and bravery cannot be taught enhanced or trained.This would be to do with ambition I would say which maybe effected and in some cases if not all work in conjunction with determination. If you have won all you can like Ronaldo did at Man U he decides he no longer has the heart for them or English football so sees a move away to Madrid as a way of winning more being ambitious and determined to win even more than he already has. whereas someone with lower determination but high ambition may think it would be easier to stay at the same team where he has won everything and not have the heart or determination to then push himself there after, just performing in his comfort zone as he doesn't have the heart for a new challenge to further prove himself. That's how I see it tbh. Is this just you guessing or do you actually have anything to back it up? You would have a case if you believed that mental processes etc. was part of your personality. But they really don't have to be. I know for a fact that determination and perseverance can be trained (and so can bravery depending on your definition of it). Also @ Riverman Have you tried training the striker or right back for 5 or 6 years? I m quite sure that being "quite sure" isn't good enough to base such a strong opinion on. I reckon it could be possible on the right training schedule and enough practice. Would be a challenge wouldn't it? Or to train them to a different position? Many youth players change positions before they go pro IRL. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sleepwalk Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Yes, we track the high values attribute by attribute. The attribute weighting system was designed originally to make sure the right attributes are the key ones for certain positions and the same weightings are also used when developing the players in the game. So yes, ideally we'd aim for have a similar attribute distribution amongst different type of players over a long period of time, just like you posted in the above example. However achieving this in 100% detail is indeed not so simple, because we can only generate the players as newgens with their starting attributes and then let the AI managers/coaches (or human managers) help them develop their skills to their full potential. So it's not just a matter of adjusting one value in the game, because of all the different elements involved in the player progress/newgen generation. and if there would be a separate attribute or parameter for trainers on how much they play with young players?? but i think its not that easy to include that.. if you look for real managers, there are a few who just or mostly put in young footballers. for example: Arsene Wenger, Felix Magath, Ralf Rangnick.. etc... but if you watch in FM, a lot of these trainers let play more older footballers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff Riz Remes Posted October 21, 2009 SI Staff Share Posted October 21, 2009 I feel very bipolar when it comes to newgens. I see a positive post about them by Riz and then I run another test of the newgen crop and I see something that dissapoints me The thing is, these are still 14 year olds and have lots of time to develop their skills. I don't think newgens should be ready-made products when they are created and in real life they are not either. Are you comparing these game created 14 year old newgens against existing 14 year old players in the DB or just going with the general feeling that the attributes start too low ? Like was said above by a few others, with training even the attributes that start out bad can be improved to a decent level. Just because some attributes start low does not mean it will dramatically hurt their chances of reaching their PA. The system is not absolutely rigid when it comes to gaining CA towards PA and while improving the weak attributes does gain the player CA, it does not mean that he will stop developing his better skills once he closes in on his PA. Even if a player has already reached his potential (whatever it may be) with his CA, he can still balance his skillset via training. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
torsportsfan Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Thanks for the reply, I am comparing them to the other youth in the game. I think you posted on something like this but the newgens just seem so random. I was suprised to see that many 15 year olds in the game do have very low bravery and off-ball ratings, but at least defenders have more than 1 in marking and are usually stronger than faster(unlike the newgens in 10, still a problem from 2009) Thank you again for the replies, It's nice to see a member of the dev team actively participating in a topic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
private pyle Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 i dont think players mental attributes should rely SOOO much on tutoring just to make them half decent. Agree 100% with this Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
whilewolf Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Can you clear things up please Riz? Can all attributes increase with training including mental attributes like bravery and determination what about hidden attributes? Is there a maximum value an attribute can increase from its initial value? Is the amount an attribute can increase by linked to the difference between CA and PA? A players potential to improve is much greater before the age of twenty four right? If a player doesn’t get sufficient games while young does that mean that he is very unlikely to reach his full potential and some stats will always be lower then they might have been had he been given first teem football. Does that mean that part of the problem with newgens is that they have sat in the reserves and not developed? Do computer managers persevere with established players because they have higher stats CAs then newgens but the newgens need games to increase their stats and CA? Personally I feel and maybe it already works this way, that footballing intelligence stats movement off the ball positioning etc and consistency should increase latter once players start getting first team games while stats like bravery aggression professionalism should remain nearly unchanged throughout a players career. The physical and technical stats increasing with training not match experience. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golaxi Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 how would a youth EVER get a place as a defender in a youth team with a marking of 1? furthermore decisions of 1. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff Riz Remes Posted October 21, 2009 SI Staff Share Posted October 21, 2009 Can all attributes increase with training including mental attributes like bravery and determination what about hidden attributes? Is there a maximum value an attribute can increase from its initial value? Is the amount an attribute can increase by linked to the difference between CA and PA? A players potential to improve is much greater before the age of twenty four right? If a player doesn’t get sufficient games while young does that mean that he is very unlikely to reach his full potential and some stats will always be lower then they might have been had he been given first teem football. Does that mean that part of the problem with newgens is that they have sat in the reserves and not developed? -No, mental attributes cannot be trained but they can go up as the player ages. Also, certain mental attributes are pretty much static but can change up or down on some special occasions in the game like tutoring, player interaction etc. (for example aggression can be sometimes lowered by fining the player for violent conduct) -No, technically there is no such maximum increase but the attribute ceiling will naturally depend on things like potential, ability and other factors. -No, those are not directly linked but naturally if a player has room to improve there is a better chance he will do so and also it will be easier to develop weaker attributes (ie. it is harder to get an attribute trained from 18 to 19 than it is from 4 to 5). -Younger players can develop faster in some cases if that's what you mean as some of the attributes will no longer develop as fast in the later years. -The likelihood of a player reaching his potential depend on a number of factors. One such factor is the number of competitive matches the player plays, but this also depends on how long is the player lacking proper match experience. However you also need to consider the fact that exposing young players to too much first team football at a very early age can also result in set backs such as injuries and morale slumps (and resulting in hindered development) so it is a bit of a balancing act for both AI and human managers. how would a youth EVER get a place as a defender in a youth team with a marking of 1? furthermore decisions of 1. Having an attribute of 1 in the game does not necessarily mean you are the world's worst player in that area. You need a combination of attributes to play and since we are talking about very young newgens here, they still have loads of room to improve. I don't think you are saying that the game should never create young teenage players that have 1's or 2's in some attributes are linked to their position ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Äktsjon Männ Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Having an attribute of 1 in the game does not necessarily mean you are the world's worst player in that area. You need a combination of attributes to play and since we are talking about very young newgens here, they still have loads of room to improve. I don't think you are saying that the game should never create young teenage players that have 1's or 2's in some attributes are linked to their position ? I personally think the game should create much much less youngsters with more than a few attributes of 1, regardless if it's key or not. How many youngsters at the start of the game have 1s across the board like so many newgens (like the majority of those posted on the previous page) seem to do? I'd guess it's not that many at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
whilewolf Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Having an attribute of 1 in the game does not necessarily mean you are the world's worst player in that area. You need a combination of attributes to play and since we are talking about very young newgens here, they still have loads of room to improve. I don't think you are saying that the game should never create young teenage players that have 1's or 2's in some attributes are linked to their position ? I don’t know about him but I kind of am. Maybe never is to strong a word but a rating of 1 does mean a player is very deficient in that area and its very hard to imagine a player making the youth squad when his clearly very week in an essential skill for his position. This problem is even worse when the attribute is mental so his even less likely to develop to a reasonable level. I know attributes are generated after position is assigned so the attributes considered essential for that position are, taken as a whole, better then those not considered essential, but the newgen creation code doesn’t seem to able to replicate the relationship between those essential attributes. To give an example in IRL a striker who is slow will almost always be either a big tall strong target man or a creative foil who creates chances by dropping deep and playing passes but previous FMs have created lots of slow goal poaching forwards. Perhaps archetypes/templates are the way to go? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
torsportsfan Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 I personally think the game should create much much less youngsters with more than a few attributes of 1, regardless if it's key or not. How many youngsters at the start of the game have 1s across the board like so many newgens (like the majority of those posted on the previous page) seem to do? I'd guess it's not that many at all. 100% agree with you, I have no problems with a few 1's on some players but when the majority of players possess multiple stats of 1 thats where the problem lies. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK10 Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 so you are basically saying that the composure of a 14yr striker will go up from 2 to around 10-15 and the marking of the 14yr fullback from 1 to 10-15 ? i am quite sure it wont go over 6-7 max. they already have decent stats in other places and there is certainly no room for the unusually weak stat to leap more than 10 points. Thus, a player with high PA will be ab absolutely wasted IMO. i wud not play a striker with composure 5-6 in my league 1 team. This unusual balance ruins a lot of high PA regens for me. I want good regens too, it's one tihng that bothers me. But there is absolutely no way you can judge the quality by a couple of season worth of brazillian regens that are 14. Pierre for example could easily end up at 18+ in most of his physical stats, 17+ finishing +15 composure +17 technique. You really cant ask for much more from a striker. I'm sure if he has/had a high PA he would end up being pretty damn good. Hes also not right only for ootedness so he's partially two footed. (I personally despise the two footed tax put on players.) Lets let the game come out and play a few seasons before we start complaining about regens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
crafty bison Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 I do wonder if each attribute should have its own decay function.Mentally, I can imagine that attributes like Aggression and Bravery might decrease for older players; that feeling of immortality which characterizes the teens and early twenties gives way to a more mature approach. On the other hand, one's Anticipation of the game and Positioning might continue to increase even into one's forties. I've often heard retired baseball players say that one of the biggest ironies of the game is that, by the time the mind has really begun to understand the art of it, the body no longer has the ability to perform. Technically, I could imagine Technique leveling off, neither improving nor decreasing .. but Flair might decay as one becomes less likely to try overhead kicks and other spectacular moves. Physically, I would certainly imagine Injury Proneness increasing, with both Stamina and Natural Fitness decreasing. (In game, Stamina = rate of condition loss during a match, and Natural Fitness = rate of condition recovery between matches.) On the other hand, though you often hear a player has "Lost a step", it isn't like Pace and Acceleration both peak at, say, 28, and then decline steadily thereafter. My observations are that its much more step-ladder like: a player with a 20 might come back from one offseason with a mere 14-15 ... but thereafter would probably never drop below a 10-12. (At least, not until well past retirement age.) A lithe speedster at age 40 may no longer be as quick as he once was, but is still likely to be faster than a lumbering hulk at age 24. This is a really good post. I think a great thing to think about for FM11 is more realistically modelling individual attributes, and WHEN in a player's life they increase, peak, and drop away. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff Riz Remes Posted October 21, 2009 SI Staff Share Posted October 21, 2009 Actually, this year we've already gone into the individual attribute decays Generally the attributes are grouped to attributes that grow with experience, old age or with young age and attributes that decline with old age. This has been the way the system was originally coded already but this year we've added specific control on certain individual attributes that should behave a bit differently from their categories. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
x42bn6 Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 Am I the only one who doesn't really see a problem with the current newgens' screenshots? I mean the last one could stop doing physical training right now and become a solid full-back if his PA is high enough. Yeah I know he has a lot of 1s but I noticed that FM09 made extremely low attributes modestly higher after a couple of years, as in it's earlier to train 1 to 3 than 18 to 20. The last one will simply need to retrain himself to a winger probably - he'll probably never make it as a right-back. I advocate that there was nothing majorly wrong with FM08 regens except their physical attributes were a bit silly and some set-piece attributes were allocated all over the place like wingers generally making awful corner takers, and there were no "Messi" players - i.e. CA ~110 at 15. You would get around 20 world-class players in a single game and believe it or not that is actually the case in real-life. I simply feel it was far too easy to build a squad of wonderkids who would turn into the rough equivalent of a Messi in each position on FM09, when in reality not even Real Madrid could do that, looking at their back four. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff Riz Remes Posted October 22, 2009 SI Staff Share Posted October 22, 2009 I personally think the game should create much much less youngsters with more than a few attributes of 1, regardless if it's key or not. How many youngsters at the start of the game have 1s across the board like so many newgens (like the majority of those posted on the previous page) seem to do? I'd guess it's not that many at all. I've just had a look at the latest overnight soak and had a look at the average number of 1's for young players (U18 since there are not too many real U16 player in the DB). The average at the start of the game was 3.569 per youth and in 2026 the average was 3.502 per youth. The average was counted not just over the visible attributes in the player profile but it also includes hidden attributes. So overall I think that would be pretty good balance long term compared to the starting situation ? Please note that this and the other data analysis I posted above is with the patched code. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrekiejai Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 I thought Mental stats don't move much once generated? So stuff like bravery and determination doesn't move too much. If that's the case, have regens with single digit mental attributes will ruin the game as they are all be afraid of the ball As for the player torsportsfan posted, he should be completely useless on the pitch. 2 composure and 1 decision really makes painful reading. 8 bravery isn't much good for a defender and his only saving grace is good determination. Still not much good if he's afraid of the ball, and always making the wrong decision, or panicking whenever the ball get near him! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrekiejai Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 I've just had a look at the latest overnight soak and had a look at the average number of 1's for young players (U18 since there are not too many real U16 player in the DB). The average at the start of the game was 3.569 per youth and in 2026 the average was 3.502 per youth. The average was counted not just over the visible attributes in the player profile but it also includes hidden attributes. So overall I think that would be pretty good balance long term compared to the starting situation ?Please note that this and the other data analysis I posted above is with the patched code. So for every youth, there are around 3 attributes that is a 1? Is that what this means? Must say, this measure doesn't do too much because it depends what those attributes are regarding their position. Having a striker with 1 marking isn't a big problem, but having 1 for finishing is. Likewise, having a defender with 1 for long shot isn't too bad, but 1 for tackling and he's got no future. If the 1 is on determination/bravery, he's pretty much going to have a uneventful career. I'll take your word that it is better in FM10 and hopefully you will be proven correct once the game comes out! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
x42bn6 Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 So for every youth, there are around 3 attributes that is a 1? Is that what this means? No, it means that on average, a player has 3 attributes at 1. This doesn't mean every youngster has 3 attributes at 1. It's overwhelmingly likely that there are rubbish youngsters with lots of 1s and good youngsters with none. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Atherton Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 I didn't realise you could get regens untill after the first season? Back on topic, I'd say mental stats would be the least developed of newgens, thats just realistic its very rare to have a mentally developed youngster. This is the main advantage of having older players in your first team Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff Riz Remes Posted October 22, 2009 SI Staff Share Posted October 22, 2009 I thought Mental stats don't move much once generated?So stuff like bravery and determination doesn't move too much. If that's the case, have regens with single digit mental attributes will ruin the game as they are all be afraid of the ball As for the player torsportsfan posted, he should be completely useless on the pitch. 2 composure and 1 decision really makes painful reading. 8 bravery isn't much good for a defender and his only saving grace is good determination. Still not much good if he's afraid of the ball, and always making the wrong decision, or panicking whenever the ball get near him! Bravery of 1 does not mean the player is afraid of the ball. I'm not sure where people have gotten this idea ? And again, you are talking about a 14 year old player in a game that mainly models professional football. Surely 14 year olds youths should be more likely to have lower attributes than more developed players for the game to be realistic. What would be the point of having an attribute range of 1-20 if the low end was not used in most cases at all ? You have to understand that these are footballers we are modelling. A footballer with an attribute value of 1 is probably still going to be a lot better in that particular skill than a random non-footballer picked out of a pub Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrekiejai Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 While I agree that 14 year olds isn't going to be at their peak, but if you start with very low mental attributes, one that is actually quite hard to improve, the kid will end up with a dull career. What I would love to see in a soak is this (not a challenge, purely out of interest): 2010 : List of youngers when PA > 150 with average mental attributes less than 10 (or 8 if there are too many!). 2020 : Those same youngers, and see what their mental attributes become. I'm not too concerned with carp players with carp mental attributes. I'm more concerned with players with obvious talent hindered by carp mental attributes. Also out of interest would be a comparison for each attribute, the number 1s vs then number 20s (obviously over all age group). To be honest, i'm not sure we use 20 much either Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrekiejai Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 No, it means that on average, a player has 3 attributes at 1. This doesn't mean every youngster has 3 attributes at 1. It's overwhelmingly likely that there are rubbish youngsters with lots of 1s and good youngsters with none. Cool thanks, that's quite easy to understand. Brain must've taken a short unauthorised holiday. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Atherton Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Guys, we need to put this into perspective. 14 years old is pretty much mid-puberty, imagine yourself at that age, your not going to have high mental stats Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrekiejai Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Guys, we need to put this into perspective. 14 years old is pretty much mid-puberty, imagine yourself at that age, your not going to have high mental stats I was awesome at 14, but then went downhill from there..... I agree, 14 is too young, but would be interesting to taken samples at 18... and then snapshot it again when they are 28 (around their peak). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
santy001 Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 In general I was pleased with regens very much on FM09. A lot failed to live up to their potential - others made it. It's hard to count them all in my mind, but when you think of 'world class' players, there is certainly way more than 20 around today. You can take considerable numbers from the England, Spain, France, Brazil, Argentina, Portugal, Italy (albeit older now), Holland, Germany, Russia have a couple and then you have one or two from other nations like Ghana and Sweden. I'd say there is comfortably over 50 'world class' players. Certainly if you count older players who still have the periodic ability ie Giggs, Shevchenko, Del Piero & co who are still held in high esteem. All Bravery of 1 means to me is "hard tackling" high bravery, whilst on the face of it is good, isn't always that good. If you've got a fairly injury prone player, who has high bravery and isn't afraid to take the tackle you might notice he gets a fair few more injuries than a player who avoids it and just drops into open spaces more. At 14, not wanting to take hard tackles during that time you're developing sounds quite sensible really lol. I've had plenty strikers with low composure still score, you can work well with low stats. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katarian Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Apart form GKs there was no real problem with newgens on FM09. The demo is a really bad place to test them out as you can't see the 16/17 year olds that are generated in the top european leagues, the 14 year old Brazilians always look crap when they are generated. Long term games in FM09 suffered more from teams lacking realistic squads then from poor newgens. I'm not talking about them having masses of 30+ year olds but about most teams barely having enough players to fill a matchday squad during an injury crisis, and the top teams having squads of 30 players when they started the game with squads of 50+. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golaxi Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Please note that this and the other data analysis I posted above is with the patched code. theres a release day patch for the game? it improves newgens? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff Riz Remes Posted October 22, 2009 SI Staff Share Posted October 22, 2009 There is information about the patching strategy for FM2010 here: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=154312 And yes, the first patch will also include newgen finetuning and improvements. The newgen/player progress area is pretty much like the match engine, it is never complete but is constantly being worked on and improved upon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
crafty bison Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Actually, this year we've already gone into the individual attribute decays Generally the attributes are grouped to attributes that grow with experience, old age or with young age and attributes that decline with old age. This has been the way the system was originally coded already but this year we've added specific control on certain individual attributes that should behave a bit differently from their categories. Great to hear Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowser_FMF Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 How bad is 1 really? I mean 1 in FM sounds like its really bad, surely even a schoolkid could have 1 for everything at least? That sounds pretty awful. 1s sound like you're way below amateur lvl, like you can't cross or something O_O Some of the attributes in the mental bit can be trained, but thats very limited. If you are willing to train them, he could at least still play possibily at a lower pro standard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Stuart Wilson Posted October 22, 2009 Author Share Posted October 22, 2009 How bad is 1 really? I mean 1 in FM sounds like its really bad, surely even a schoolkid could have 1 for everything at least? That sounds pretty awful. 1s sound like you're way below amateur lvl, like you can't cross or something O_OSome of the attributes in the mental bit can be trained, but thats very limited. If you are willing to train them, he could at least still play possibily at a lower pro standard. One could even be a good level amateur player imo, one that even shines at amateur level. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSCCG Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 One could even be a good level amateur player imo, one that even shines at amateur level. I've always wondered what 1 was, if anybody could tell me. Is it on an overall level ranging from useless to awesome? Or does it start from "average" at 1 and go up from there? I mean, like somebody else said 1 could possibly be a child if you measured it the first way, but by the same logic you'd have to put everyone at 10 by default and that's not realistic. How are you supposed to tell what average is over everybody anyway? 1 is probably a measurement out of football players rather than out of everybody in the world, because believe it or not, most people can't actually kick a ball. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff Riz Remes Posted October 22, 2009 SI Staff Share Posted October 22, 2009 How are you supposed to tell what average is over everybody anyway? 1 is probably a measurement out of football players rather than out of everybody in the world, because believe it or not, most people can't actually kick a ball. I think I tried to make this point earlier in one of my posts. Having an attribute of 1 makes it the lowest possible in the FM universe for footballers. But it does not mean that a player with a Bravery of 1 is afraid of his own shadow and will hide in the dugout if a ball happens to come his way Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
torsportsfan Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 excellent news about the patch including newgen fixes. Riz, if you don't mind answering another question... Will Central Defenders predominantly be stronger than faster?(this was a big issue in 09). Thanks for your continued replies and activity in the thread Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Stuart Wilson Posted November 3, 2009 Author Share Posted November 3, 2009 So how is this looking so far from those who have played a little into the future? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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