SFraser's Training Schedules for FM10

[ProZone]

Another great write up. Is this not a much easier way of designing schedules and explaining them to others?

I promise to post something similar for a few of my developing players once I have got through 6 months of the season and can show some results. Needless to say I follow exactly the same approach as you have described, boosting areas of weakness through added Focus.

One further consideration is that you may want to retrain him as MR. I think, but I could be wrong, that PA is distributed differently according to position. For example, MR probably has a higher tendency for Strength category attribute improvements than AMR. It's maybe worth a try if you are not seeing the desired results.

[jim morrow]

Like I wrote in the other post :

For Youth, I think that you can concentrate training on Strength and Aerobic area..Cause technical attributes will be gained later when they got older and have difficulty to increase if the player is too young.

And when the player increase his strength and aerobic area, he increase in the same time the load of training work he can accept, he get better condition recovery, can do better things during match with more pace, more activity etc...etc..

Strength and aerobic are like an "engine" for the future career of the young player.

[Sir Bobby Moore II]

SFraser, great thread. In your opinion, what is the optimal amount of game time for a young player to develop quickly?

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I'm playing as Vasco in Brazil and am enjoying turning them into a Wonderkid Factory.

In 2016 and am starting to pull away as the dominant side in Brazil domestically. I've built up a very strong scouting network covering 100% of South America more importantly I use notes to keep track of the Youth Player Intake dates so I pinch all the best youngsters quickly. The board have also backed me well and provided me with a great Youth Academy and Training Facility so I'm getting some pretty good young players of my own as well.

Having made a huge effort over the past two seasons to build a first team full of highly professional, determined and hard-working players (at the expense of two wonderkids who left early for Europe) I should have plenty of players to tutor the youngsters. I also assume my first team is a fairly loyal bunch as they haven't jumped ship to Europe yet.

I am very stubborn about not letting great players go to Europe untill they are 22 firstly so I get as much as possible for them and secondly so they do well when they get there.

At the moment I feel my youth side is brimming with potential, view assistant reports and the squad is full of players with max potential from all over South America. Now I need to develop them.

Players are coming through at 14 years old so I assume they can develop very quickly for at least 4 years.

At the moment my strategy is:

- Tutor each player at 14 years old (I usually have each first team player tutoring 3 youngsters over the course of the season)

- Spend from 14-16 y/o in youth team training very hard and playing in the same formation as I use with the First Team.

- 16 y/o break into first team (10+ appearences in cups)

- 17 y/o possible loan if guaranteed first team football

- 18 y/o 90 minutes of football every week so roughly 1/2 first team games (generally the easiest game of the week)

- 19-22 y/o hopefully first team and tutor youngsters

- 22+ y/o sell onto Europe

So far I pretty much always have players on your develpment schedule.

Very satisfyingly my first graduate of the Youth Academy has just won the Champions League with Inter!

[SFraser]

SFraser, great thread. In your opinion, what is the optimal amount of game time for a young player to develop quickly?

That is a brilliant question. Youth development is what got me so interested in Training in the first place. It was something I needed to understand and be able to use effectively in order to maximise the development of my youngsters, to improve key deficiencies severely hindering them while boosting certain strengths that would enable them to to perform a few functions in-match to a high degree of ability.

For young players specifically, their optimal amount of game time is a much more indepth issue than with older players that are still developing or not yet reached their maximum potential, in my opinion anyway. There are many more factors to consider with youngsters, and introducing them to First Team football is a more complex, yet incredibly fun and entertaining and rewarding, question of management ability.

The optimal amount of game time for a youngster to develop quickly is whatever keeps them at 100% Match Experience. The problem is that Match Experience cannot be directly seen ingame. The condition percentage is a combination of Match Experience and Physical Fitness while the Fitness display (Match Fit, Superb, Severely Lacking Match Fitness etc.) is more of a general indication of certain key levels reached in both Physical Condition and Match Experience.

To give a few examples:

1: Fitness = Superb Condition / Condition = 100%. The player is at 100% Match Experience and 100% Physical Condition.

2: Fitness = Severely Lacking Match Fitness / Condition = 90%. The player is probably around 50% Match Experience and 100% Physical Condition.

3: Fitness = Tired / Condition = 89%. The player is at 100% Match Experience and probably around 80% to 85% Physical Condition.

Now 100% Match Experience means maximum CA growth rates, but it means maximum CA growth rates for whatever CA is actually gained. Match Experience is like a final modifier of CA gain, so 50% Match Experience means 50% of whatever CA you should gain is what you actually gain. If CA is dropping for some reason, low Match Experience will increase the drop.

High or Maximum Match Experience is what you want in your youngsters. This maximises the amount of CA you gain.

However the story does not end there. You can stop here if you like as the most important stuff is done, but there is so much more to youth development than Match Experience.

Youth Development

With the desire to achieve maximum Match Experience a given, youth development is then all about playing under-developed players in such a manner that they remain happy, they gain the respect of their teammates, they perform well on the pitch, they achieve high levels of CA gain, and that the manager understands how to use them and uses them in such a way that they are not a detriment to the team and that they are "figured out" and used effectively.

Match Performances and Club/Opponent/Competition Reputation are important factors in CA gain rates. The optimal quantity of playing time for maximum CA gain from each match is 100% Match Experience, but what defines the quantity of CA gained per match is Club/Opponent/Competition Reputation and Match Performance levels.

100% Match Experience will always give 100% of the CA gained to the player, but a bad performance in the League Cup Second Round from a Manchester United youngsters at home to Accrington Stanley will give far less basic CA than a Hat-trick and a Man-Of-The-Match Performance against Barcelona in the European Cup Final.

An 18 year old that bags a Hat-trick against Barcelona in the European Cup Final will not only gain maximum possible CA, but will also gains one-off boosts to attributes like Influence, Finishing, Important Matches, Determination, Pressure etc. The performances of youngsters directly impacts not only their CA gain, but their football ability and mental abilities, influence, teammates perception, asking price and reputation. Any player that does exceptionally well in tough/important matches will receive these kinds of boosts and benefits, but in youngsters these increases are greater, more decisive at their age, and hugely more beneficial to their overall ability. Likewise any detrimental after effects of bad performances are magnified and very disruptive to the players development. Significantly bad performances can see players actually decline, especially if the player is regularly poor.

The oldest/biggest/best trick in the book for getting immense performances out of youngsters in First Team matches is to use maximum condition, fresh, fit, energetic youngsters against knackered opponents for the last 10-20 minutes of a game. As condition drops, so does the ability of players. Concentration drops, Workrate drops, and I would guess all mental abilities drop according to condition. A completely fresh, livewire, dribbling and pace fanatic with a decent cross and plenty of flair coming into the game at 100% condition or Superb Fitness will perform far above his abilities precisely because the opponents are playing below their abilities. In this situation he has the greatest opportunity to make the biggest impact and achieve the best performance rating, and so gain the maximum possible benefits from the Match Experience.

The manager can further boost his performance by playing him where he can best influence the game in a positive manner, and by motivating him so he plays even better. This requires a manager that understands the players capabilities and mental state/personality. Bringing on a pacey, aggressive striker that makes good runs alongside a wise old veteran playmaker to feed him the ball for the last 15 minutes of the game is a recipe for maximum results for your youngsters. As is bringing on a livewire winger with targetman instructions and a cunning veteran "fox-in-the-box" as the targetman.

This all requires that the manager pays close attention to physical condition as well as Match Experience, pays attention to player abilities and player personality and match tactics and opponent abilities. This requires that the manager is knowledgeable about his players, and cunning about his tactics. Above all though it requires that the manager is capable of introducing youngsters into a team where they can make the maximum impact. This will benefit player development, but also benefit the team. Macheda or Gibson scores yet another last gasp late goal, which not only pulls the team back into the game or seals a late winner, but boosts the players CA and mental ability gains to their maximum possible levels.

Then praise the lad publicly so he becomes your best friend, then bench him for the next game so he knows he has to earn his place, and so you can use him at the perfect moment in the match for maximum benefit for player, team, club and manager.

And if you happen to Mentor him with the player he replaces as sub, or the player he plays alongside when he comes onto the pitch, this will only reinforce the bonds and reinforce the competition between players, and improve your team and club even further.

[ron.e]

Does anyone have any advice on what to do to improve a young players stamina? Thanks

[SFraser]

Does anyone have any advice on what to do to improve a young players stamina? Thanks

Intensive Strength training. You need to be careful with injuries, but at the same time you need to try and maximise his Strength increases.

I would pay close attention to a players current Strength Attributes. There may be a correlation between low Stamina/Strength, his Strength Training and injuries. Physically weak players doing Intensive Physical training may well be more susceptible to physical injuries, and that is something I am seeing in my game, although it could be chance.

Either way, make sure his Strength Focus is higher than any other Focus, possibly even 2-3x any other focus. You cannot easilly raise Strength Attributes in older players, and Stamina is a key attribute. If the player starts getting injured you will have to reduce the Strength intensity, while also reducing the other intensities to maintain the same ratio of improvement.

That combined to Match Experience and the above explanation for youth development is what you should be aiming for.

[ron.e]

Intensive Strength training. You need to be careful with injuries, but at the same time you need to try and maximise his Strength increases.

I would pay close attention to a players current Strength Attributes. There may be a correlation between low Stamina/Strength, his Strength Training and injuries. Physically weak players doing Intensive Physical training may well be more susceptible to physical injuries, and that is something I am seeing in my game, although it could be chance.

Either way, make sure his Strength Focus is higher than any other Focus, possibly even 2-3x any other focus. You cannot easilly raise Strength Attributes in older players, and Stamina is a key attribute. If the player starts getting injured you will have to reduce the Strength intensity, while also reducing the other intensities to maintain the same ratio of improvement.

That combined to Match Experience and the above explanation for youth development is what you should be aiming for.

Thanks for the advice. I've made a mistake. What i meant to say was, is there anything i can do about a young player with very low natural fitness? Also is it ok for a youngster to have stamina of 12 or should aim to get it as high as possible? Thanks

[SFraser]

Thanks for the advice. I've made a mistake. What i meant to say was, is there anything i can do about a young player with very low natural fitness? Thanks

Not a lot. Natural Fitness doesn't increase/decrease according to CA gains but is more like Aggression/Bravery/Determination.

Players with low Natural Fitness need an even closer eye on their condition. Condition between matches and tactical instructions that produce condition loss in-match.

Compensating for low Natural Fitness, or low Stamina, requires good rotation/usage strategies and you can help yourself more by limiting the amount of closing down or runs a player makes during a match. Reducing Training Workload is another option.

Other than tactical instructions or rotation policies or training workloads that reduce the amount of condition a player loses between games, there is not a lot more you can do. Natural Fitness is a "personality" type Attribute, that defines not how a player behaves in a single move, but how he behaves over the course of a few weeks, or a season, or his career.

Low Natural Fitness players simply do not recover condition very well, and there is not a lot you can do about that. Low closing down, low "forward runs/runs with ball", reduced training, and good rotation strategies are all you really have to work with.

Also is it ok for a youngster to have stamina of 12 or should aim to get it as high as possible? Thanks

Depends on the level you play at. Low stamina = condition loss = performance decline. If your players performance drops like a stone while those around him are still at peak performance it is bad, if those around him drop like a stone and he is still better, thats great.

12 Stamina is decent for third or fourth tier leagues. It is a disaster for top leagues. I would always attempt to train a minimum of 15 at Manchester United, while 12 would be a high score in the Blue Square.

[ron.e]

Not a lot. Natural Fitness doesn't increase/decrease according to CA gains but is more like Aggression/Bravery/Determination.

Players with low Natural Fitness need an even closer eye on their condition. Condition between matches and tactical instructions that produce condition loss in-match.

Compensating for low Natural Fitness, or low Stamina, requires good rotation/usage strategies and you can help yourself more by limiting the amount of closing down or runs a player makes during a match. Reducing Training Workload is another option.

Other than tactical instructions or rotation policies or training workloads that reduce the amount of condition a player loses between games, there is not a lot more you can do. Natural Fitness is a "personality" type Attribute, that defines not how a player behaves in a single move, but how he behaves over the course of a few weeks, or a season, or his career.

Low Natural Fitness players simply do not recover condition very well, and there is not a lot you can do about that. Low closing down, low "forward runs/runs with ball", reduced training, and good rotation strategies are all you really have to work with.

Depends on the level you play at. Low stamina = condition loss = performance decline. If your players performance drops like a stone while those around him are still at peak performance it is bad, if those around him drop like a stone and he is still better, thats great.

12 Stamina is decent for third or fourth tier leagues. It is a disaster for top leagues. I would always attempt to train a minimum of 15 at Manchester United, while 12 would be a high score in the Blue Square.

Thanks for your reply. So if i have a top youngster with all the attributes that makes him a top player and he's got 5 for natural fitness and 12 for stamina, then is it better to look at someone else for my team?

[Jenko_EFC]

You could but I'd doubt they could play very often and without the stamina he couldn't obviously be a ball-winning midfieleder or a player with high closing down etc probably a static playmaker in the Riquelme mould but you could obviously try a heavy strength schedule and if he's young enough you may get a few points maybe 1 or 2.

[ron.e]

I meant if they're is a top-class player but they have 5 for natural fitness and 12 stamina, would they be worth buying for a premier-league club? Thanks

[ron.e]

You could but I'd doubt they could play very often and without the stamina he couldn't obviously be a ball-winning midfieleder or a player with high closing down etc probably a static playmaker in the Riquelme mould but you could obviously try a heavy strength schedule and if he's young enough you may get a few points maybe 1 or 2.

I meant if they're is a top-class player but they have 5 for natural fitness and 12 stamina, would they be worth buying for a premier-league club? Thanks

[SFraser]

I meant if they're is a top-class player but they have 5 for natural fitness and 12 stamina, would they be worth buying for a premier-league club? Thanks

It's all about how you use them.

Here is a screenshot of the 2010-2011 season in my current save as Manchester United. I am six games into the season, 4 PL games, a Charity Shield match, and a European Super Cup match.

Look at the contribution from Ryan Giggs. The guy is 36 years old, has only played 80 minutes of football in 6 matches, but has scored two goals and setup another in those 80 minutes, with an average rating of 7.9. One of those goals came against Chelsea in the league, of all games to score in.

Look at Giggs' attributes.

The guy is declining, and dropping like a stone when it comes to physical ability. 11 Natural fitness, 9 Stamina, 12 Acceleration, 12 Pace. These are horrible physical attributes, and with Giggs they are only going to get worse.

Look at his last five games. Average rating of 8.18, 4 goals scored. The guy cannot play regularly but is an absolute weapon of a footballer when he does play. Estimated value of £450,000? The guy is one of the most important players in my club, a footballing nuclear missile.

Did you see the player Douglas Costa in the first screenshot? What has he contributed to the team this season? Two goals and one assist in only 67 minutes of football. Have a look at his profile, look at his Natural Fitness and Stamina. Remind you of a young version of anyone?

That's right, Douglas Costa is my new Ryan Giggs. The only difference between the two players is that Costa is improving while Giggs is declining. Costa is getting his Strength Category boosted, even at the expense of his Aerobic while Giggs his getting his Strength decline halted as much as possible, at the expense of Aerobic.

Neither of these two players has high Natural Fitness or high Stamina, and cannot play every game for 90 minutes. They are however my "secret weapons", coming on for the late stages of games when opponents are knackered, and producing the goods and then some.

One is declining, the other is developing, both are absolute weapons in the last 20 minutes of a game. This is Premier League / Champions League level.

By the way, do you like how I use Carrick, Valencia and Rooney?

[ron.e]

It's all about how you use them.

Here is a screenshot of the 2010-2011 season in my current save as Manchester United. I am six games into the season, 4 PL games, a Charity Shield match, and a European Super Cup match.

Look at the contribution from Ryan Giggs. The guy is 36 years old, has only played 80 minutes of football in 6 matches, but has scored two goals and setup another in those 80 minutes, with an average rating of 7.9. One of those goals came against Chelsea in the league, of all games to score in.

Look at Giggs' attributes.

The guy is declining, and dropping like a stone when it comes to physical ability. 11 Natural fitness, 9 Stamina, 12 Acceleration, 12 Pace. These are horrible physical attributes, and with Giggs they are only going to get worse.

Look at his last five games. Average rating of 8.18, 4 goals scored. The guy cannot play regularly but is an absolute weapon of a footballer when he does play. Estimated value of £450,000? The guy is one of the most important players in my club, a footballing nuclear missile.

Did you see the player Douglas Costa in the first screenshot? What has he contributed to the team this season? Two goals and one assist in only 67 minutes of football. Have a look at his profile, look at his Natural Fitness and Stamina. Remind you of a young version of anyone?

That's right, Douglas Costa is my new Ryan Giggs. The only difference between the two players is that Costa is improving while Giggs is declining. Costa is getting his Strength Category boosted, even at the expense of his Aerobic while Giggs his getting his Strength decline halted as much as possible, at the expense of Aerobic.

Neither of these two players has high Natural Fitness or high Stamina, and cannot play every game for 90 minutes. They are however my "secret weapons", coming on for the late stages of games when opponents are knackered, and producing the goods and then some.

One is declining, the other is developing, both are absolute weapons in the last 20 minutes of a game. This is Premier League / Champions League level.

By the way, do you like how I use Carrick, Valencia and Rooney?

I think i understand you. Players especially in attack positions who have low natural fitness and stamina may not be able to last the whole game so it's about using them wisely. But what do you do if they want to be 1st choice and playing every game?

Youngsters and older players who are 17-24 the whole idea is to get the players to a level that is acceptable especially with stamina. Natural fitness you cant do anything about it except work around it the best way you can and don't have them as key players because they will not be to last a whole game or play two games in a week but what you can do is give them a game now and then. Am i on the right track here Sfraser?

What do you think is an acceptable level or natural fitness and stamina for the premiership for 1st team or key players? Thanks

[lililala]

I want to ask something, sorry if it is noob question.. In SF raiser training schedule, There is long term and short term injury. When one of my player injuried, I place that player on that schedule when they are on injury or after the injury? Sorry if my english is bad...

[Sidder]

For a player at his max ability, and plays nearly every match, surely I can get away with much lower intensive sheduling right? (more like just a Maintenance shedule?)

[SUCK IT]

What formation would you have been playing in those screenshots SFraser, do you use classic or wizard

[GenericName123]

Just an observation I want to post regarding training. I used to originally do this to keep all my players happy and noticed that they were happy to accept more intense regimes at different periods throughout the season than they would originally be happy to do at the start of the season. I have used the "line" theory, this worked well with that and was wondering if it was applicable to this "attribute-notch" theory. I have read your posts and it makes sense to me, so this observation postulates that the intensity of training can be increased in periodical times, based on the guestimation that, as players get fitter throughout the season, then they can handle a more intense workload.

So in short, I give my first XI players positional related training up until the last notch of heavy on the overall workload schedule, then, when they are fitter throughout the season, and increase the overall workload, still in line with their positions, to the last notch on very intense on the overall workload slider.This has had excellent results, albeit with the questionable "line theory". So in line with what I have said above, my yearly training goes as follows:

- Pre-season (Medium to V. Intensive, on weekly periods: 4 weeks in a month; thus my pre-season schedule is set into 4 different weekly routines, gradually getting more fitness intensive)

- August-September (Last notch on of heavy on overall workload slider)

- Oct-Dec (Last notch of v.intense on overall work slider)

- Jan-End of Jan (Back to last notch on heavy)

- Feb-Apr (Back to last notch of v.intense)

- May (Back to last notch on heavy)*

* Note for v.intense, you need good natural fitness, stamina,strength & workrate, thus change according to the capabilities of the individual.

Like I have said, this has worked well with "line theory", there are just a couple of problems with this with regards to SFrasers theory:

A) Due to differing amounts of attributes in particular categories, it is hard to get a v.intense regime (Overall workload) "Balanced", for particular positions

B) Combined with SFrasers approach, this will be very time-consuming chopping and changing intensity of training throughout the season (although you could have pre-set positional heavy and intensive schedules for U-17, Developing, 1st XI, and Veteran Categories).

So now I have come to grips with SFraser approach and Pro-Zones Focus formulae, I will apply these towards my own "beliefs" of periodical training and report the results, albeit I cannot compare to SFraser's as I have not used it yet, but it is still comparable to the "line approach". This will hopefully retrain my players CA as I would like, but still increase the results of SFrasers/Prozone philosophy.

[phnompenhandy]

For a player at his max ability, and plays nearly every match, surely I can get away with much lower intensive sheduling right? (more like just a Maintenance shedule?)

What do you mean 'max ability'? His PA? Training redistributes CA points, so the player still improves. Or, look at SFraser's example of Giggs - he wants to prolong Gigg's career by pumping points into his stamina.

[SFraser]

What formation would you have been playing in those screenshots SFraser

A variety of formations based on the Zona Mista form of Catenaccio adapted for my team and for each opponent. The Second Striker role is a "tactical spare" and the variety of players in the club allows me to construct just about any system I want through instructions without disturbing the basic shape of the team.

Those are just a few examples of what you can quite easilly adapt to with a few minor tweaks here and there. You can do even more with the instructions for players from those positions, pushing the LCM into a wing position in the first formation for example, or pushing up the RCM to play as a Second Striker in the last formation. Or do what United did against Milan with the middle image and play two playmakers in the DM and RCM positions with two box-to-box, hardworking midfielders in LCM and AMC getting forward and wide and pressing high up the pitch. I regret selling Park before I started playing this way. He would have been an excellent player to have as an option in this system. It just goes to show how much of the game is about understanding what your players can and cannot do, and knowing what that offers to your side on the pitch in a tactical sense.

do you use classic or wizard

A combination of the two. Mentality, Creative Freedom, Passing Style, Closing Down(for most players but not all), Tackling and Marking settings I usually leave for the Touchline Shouts / TC to modify during a match. All the other instructions I specifically choose myself. It is very useful to be able to switch between high pressing/standing off, more direct attacking or more controlled possession etc. during a match. It is much less useful to have horrible crossers whipping in balls, or 35 year old playmakers dribbling with the ball, or even worse to have your Lone Striker running into channels from an Inside Left position instead of cutting inside onto his strongest foot.

My Left Wingback for example is usually instructed to "Cut Inside" and this has dramatically improved my attacking play down that flank, not because he bombs towards goal like Messi but because he takes the ball infield and lays it off, while creating space that triggers plenty of movement in my frontline. Specifically for Rooney who will move wide and has a good chance of being spotted and played through on goal, otherwise Rooney will create space for another run and Cut Inside onto his strongest foot if he gets the ball in the wide positions. If the Left Wingback simply headed down the line he would prevent that entire process of constant attacking movement and recycling possession from taking place, and probably whip a horrible cross out of play.

Bit of a derail here though. Let's not get too deep into Tactical Discussion. My bad.

[SUCK IT]

Thanks for the detailed reply SFraser and taking the time to write it

[LeeAce]

Hi I have a question on goalkeeping training. When you click on the goalkeeping sets of attributes under the player screen, you can see there are 7 attributes in it including Concentration and Composure. Does this means to increase concentration and composure stats I have to train more in goalkeeping category instead of defending and Shooting?

Also would like to know whether the overall training levels of a schedule has any impact on the effectiveness on the training. There are some categories that are useless for some players (e.g. defenders training on shooting) but not training them would bring down the overall training level even when you are training intensively in other areas.

There are also colour codes for the different levels from dark blue to cyan. Training levels near the last line would reach cyan colour. Should we reach the Cyan level for training in order to maximise training as it seems to be the highest.

[davidbowie]

A keeper should imo be training:

Aerobic Intensive (maximum)

Goalkeeping Intensive (maximum)

Tactics Intensive (maximum)

Defending High (first notch that gets 'high')

Bold indicates very important GK attributes.

Aerobic trains: Acceleration, Agility, Balance, Jumping, Pace, Reflex

Goalkeeping trains: Aerial Ability, Handling, Kicking, One on Ones and Throwing

Tactics trains: Anticipation, Decisions, Off the Ball, Positioning, Teamwork, Command of Area, Communication, Rushing Out (important for sweeper keeper).

Defending trains: Concentration (and a few others, but none of any importance for a GK)

Aerobic: 4 very important, 5 if a sweeper keeper (pace).

Goalkeeping: 3 very important.

Tactics: 4 very important, 5 if a sweeper keeper (rushing out)

Defending: 1 important.

Strength isn't really that useful for keepers, it only trains Workrate, Strength, Stamina, Natural Fitness. Keepers don't need Workrate, Natural Fitness or Stamina, and the importance of Strength for a keeper is questionable.

Does this means to increase concentration and composure stats I have to train more in goalkeeping category instead of defending and Shooting?

No. They are "multi-use" attributes, but they are only trained by the relevant single training skill, in the case of Concentration, it's in Defence training. For Composure, it's in Shooting training.

The issue is that you are sacrificing one of the important training areas, for Shooting, which is a minor Goalkeeping attribute. You could drop Defending down to medium and put shooting up to medium as well, but I think concentration is more important.

[jim morrow]

Strength isn't really that useful for keepers, it only trains Workrate, Strength, Stamina, Natural Fitness. Keepers don't need Workrate, Natural Fitness or Stamina, and the importance of Strength for a keeper is questionable.

Strength training is important for all players !!!!! and it increase lots of thing more important than the attributes you list....Put a low workload in Strength and player will be injured more often....Strength deal with player condition, player match exercise, player activities during training and his future career...........

[Cleon]

Riz from SI still not got back to me yet, I'll mail him again. Sorry for delay responding I've not been around much lately

[davidbowie]

Strength training is important for all players !!!!! and it increase lots of thing more important than the attributes you list....Put a low workload in Strength and player will be injured more often....Strength deal with player condition, player match exercise, player activities during training and his future career...........

No, it doesn't improve attributes other than the ones I listed.

The condition of a keeper will be likely close to 100% all year.

[jim morrow]

Strength is one of a key for each player even GK for what it brings to training and match performance, injuries and more so to resume for his life of football player....

Telling that GK don't need workrate, I think that you don't make training schedule, but only rise chickens.

[Cassian]

After reading the whole topic twice, there are still some things that i did not accommodate easily.

I understand the 1 notch per attribute theory; and i understand that are probably hundreds of other factors that must be accounted for, when you decide to train a player.

I think that SFraser's contribution has gone to maximum here, for those who still don't understand, he can't do much more then to repeat over and over again.

Now i wait for ProZone's contribution . (HY there! ... i think your analysis tool is absolute best, it helped me a lot in understanding each players position).

I use math and statistics as a job, daily, so i always was interested in this game and all it's aspects (since CM98/99) because this is the most math-based game i ever played.

Ok... now let's get to the point:

- I wish Prozone will find time and divine answers to create another analysis tool for training... and I mean... not one that contains CB,FB,DM,CM etc ... because it's quite useless to me; i wish for one that contains a base training for: limited defender, full backs with attack mentality, deep lying forward, poacher or target man .. etc ...that is my wish for the whole year .. and perhaps we wont have to wait for Christmas to get it (what do you say ProZone?)

- i still have some doubts about the bars in the training category, i now Sfraser explained them with what it seems to be the perfect answer .. but i think he thinks logically and I'm afraid that training is still bit illogically implemented in the game; there was a guy here with the an interesting theory (put all players 2-3 months on a medium training and then adjust accordingly to the height of the bars; height bar = desire of player to train); I believe that he may be on to something but not height = preference/desire of player but more of ... will of player... reaction of player if you'd like. Something like ... i love what you train me for, and i like that i played a game last week, and i'm so happy to be a Man Utd player, so here it is... maximum height bar ... and when he is not happy = he lacks will of training, and then ... with his own mind, will "refuse" (a little bit to strong, but i hope you understand what i mean) to train in that area... so he will train less so the bar will go down.

- i believe although the game, at times, seems to be not perfect, i believe as well that there are no functions implemented in the game without a certain purpose; so I would like to open up a discussion about REST function. I have tried for 15 games now the following: game finishes/continue/go to training/sort ascending along condition/seek out those below 92%/start to give them rest days (something like for <80% 3 days; <90% 2 days; between 90-93% 1 day). But this is only a theory. I can say that probably coincidentally i performed better in my games... but at the same time I test another 3 theories so my better performance then usual might come from any of them. So in conclusion i think we overlook rest to much...

- i remember a few years ago I got into an argument with Cleon about training; Back then we needed to calculate something that i don't remember what, but i know that the vast majority of community thought that on Sundays and Saturdays players still trained, although I said they don't. So we needed to increase overload during week time, in order to compensate the 2 days off. I still believe i was right , but that's not important now... what is important... is I think REST has a very important role to play.

Let's say a player plays 2 days a week; i know for a fact that i read somewhere (i don't remember now where), that when match is finished in that particular day, player will rest (it would be nice Cleon if you can find this for sure). So because this is not a perfect perfect game... let's consider it doesn't matter the hour when the game takes place... so we can't say for sure that the players has trained in the morning... or if it did... let's say out of 7 days per week, if he plays 2 ... he will loose 2 days of training. So that leaves us with only 5 days to train. If i am not right.... then consider the opportunity to do this... let's say we .. will give them 2 days off.

Now... it is worth considering how many days we would give a player to rest (will it be related to his condition? or... random... or personal belief) ... so if we start giving them resting days, their "overall workload" will drop... not in bars or anywhere visibly... but we will know that for that particular week he doesn't train at maximum time.... HOW WOULD WE GO ABOUT THIS?

I believe that some strategies can come out of this: combos between rest days and intense training related to condition or other factor; and for those who don't play so much... no rest... intense training. I don't know exactly how... that is why i give you this for thought.

- Another problem I have. I play with Man Utd (always did, always will)... i have many players... U18, Reserve, First Team. 2 ideas here:

a) does any of you have a plan in mind for who should be in first team??.... i mean has any of you considered that we don't "milk" enough the differences between this 3 forms of organization ?... perhaps we should consider some benefits for keeping some players in reserve team although they play quite often in first team? ... OR .. the other way around... keep them in first team, and make them available for reserve team. Does any of you know for sure that one player will gain/loose something (anything) for being in first team/reserve team?.... just being in there, not necessarily playing the games as well.

b) how do you keep all players fit???? I always hated that SI doesn't implement in game some way to make you assistant or first coach, to regularly arrange friendly games ( it would be a dream to have a function to give orders that in one month all teams <<reserve, U18>> must play at least 5 games. Now... i organize "friendly leagues", because this makes one team to play 2-3 games, or create tours in some country... but it gets pretty frustrating to keep in mind to always create them, for both teams .... and when some team refuses i go crazy... and i don't know if any of you experienced the following bug: select date, chose 1-2 teams... when i go to choose third team... my selected date disappears... i can no longer select those days to keep that friendly.... F*** frustrating.... Anyways... to go back to my question, how can you make sure that every player stay fit in order for them to gain maximum from their training????

Until Prozone will grant me my wish (oh god please!!!), how would you train a Limited Defender ( i chose this because it needs only 6 attributes). He needs: marking, tackling, positioning, determination, jumping and strength. That means: 2 attributes in defending; 1 tactical, 1 aerobic, 1 strength????

Should I go with CB developing SFraser and then add up + 2 * 3(notches) defending + 1 * 5 (notches) tactical + 1 * 6 (notches) aerobic + 1 * 4 (notches strength).

I mean like this:

STR 5

AER 5

GK 0

TAC 5

BAL 2

DEF 6

ATT 2

SHO 2

SET 0

If i do this i exceed the maximum overload... so it's obviously that i have to take down something else... but what???

[leaderoftheshed]

Depends on his age. if he is young, you need to concentrate on his strength category attributes as they are the most likely to respond to your training. as he gets older, mental attribs like positioning will get easier to train.

3 categories with focuses of 5 or over is too much in my opinion. I would drop two of those to four depending on his age and what attribs he is particularly in need of a boost and see where that takes you to in terms of overall workload.

It wont make much differene to overall workload, but consider whether you need him traiinig at focus 2 for attack and shooting. would if be the end of the world if these categories declined while more core defesive categories improved? (especially if this guy is a limited defender)

[Shinsui]

Strength training is important for all players !!!!! and it increase lots of thing more important than the attributes you list....Put a low workload in Strength and player will be injured more often....Strength deal with player condition, player match exercise, player activities during training and his future career...........

Strength is one of a key for each player even GK for what it brings to training and match performance, injuries and more so to resume for his life of football player....

Telling that GK don't need workrate, I think that you don't make training schedule, but only rise chickens.

You really have no idea what you're talking about so you'd best shutup before you embarass yourself any further. The worst type of scum on this forum are people who present their assumptions as facts.

[Death.]

Excellent thread SFraser.

I haven't got through all seven pages (yet), though i think i have a good grasp of how the schedules are built using the different number of attributes for each training category to give a balanced ratio, and using the ratios to weight the schedule depending on where you want to focus the CA points.

However i'm still a complete novice when it comes to developing players and training in general. I'd like you're opinion on how to deal with a talented 16-year-old i have:

Now, he's a very good player for our club. In fact, my best judge of Ability/Potential says that he has the potential to be a good Liga Sagres player - i'm not sure if you're aware, but Boavista are currently playing in the third tier of Portuguese football due to financial problems and a corruption scandal. Despite the recent misfortune of the club, this boy is a shining light and i really want to develop him into being the best player he can become.

To tell you the truth, he's about as good as anybody else in my squad; perhaps the best and he's just 16. However, despite his ability he does have a big flaw: his stamina is only 5. This is something that will probably force me into not using him as a '1st Team' player just yet because he will probably struggle to play 90 minutes regularly. Which is not a major problem for our team as i've built a good squad. But it is a problem for the player. I will want to give him a schedule that focuses on Strength to improve not only his stamina but his strength too. However, because he has poor stamina and strength, will he struggle under an intense physical schedule? Or is this more a case of natural fitness and injury proneness?

My other concern is his Flair being 3, which i'd like to improve if possible. Is this something that needs to be done at a very young age or can it be improved in his later years? And will it even improve much at all?

I'd also be looking to improve some mental stats like composure, creativity, decisions and off the ball, as well as his technique and maybe finishing and long shots a little bit. But they are not as massive a concern, certainly not at this age.

It would be nice if i could get his jumping and heading up to a passable level too, but it might be a waste of CA. He's 5'8 so he's never going to be great in the air, just would be better if he wasn't a liability. I have quite a small, technical team as it is.

From what i gather the focus with young players is to get key attributes for their position up to a good level, so i would assume a schedule focused on Strength and Ball Control would be most important to get stamina and flair up to a reasonable level because other stats for his position are quite good. They could be better if he's going to make the top tier in Portugal, but the rest as mentioned above could be improved a little bit as he gets older. Right?

So, my amateur take would be a schedule focused more on Strength (stamina, strength) and Ball Control (flair).

A question on strength, all young players seem to start with low strength as you'd expect; does it naturally increase more as players get older (like physical stats decrease more as you get over 30ish) or do you still have to really focus on it in training?

Now, it's difficult to have both Aerobic training and Strength training high, so for someone with bad stamina would you sacrifice Aerobic training for Strength? You only seem to have done that for Veteran schedules as far as i can tell, in order to slow down their decline as you say. Is 4 focus on Strength, as you've done for Developing CM's, high enough even for a player with stamina only 5?

Any thoughts you have (or anyone else for that matter) is appreciated.

[Jay007]

Ive been following this thread from the beginning and ive just quickly skimmed back over it. But i cant see anywhere what player attributes are effected by the training categories ie Aerobic, Ball Control, Attacking etc. Sorry if ive missed it, but im trying to make my own schedules, so this would be really helpfull to know.

[karax268]

Death:

the way I would train him would be:

6*3 on strength

3*5 on Aerobics

2*5 on Tactics

3*4 on Bal control

3*3 on defending

3*2 on attacking

2*3 on defending

1*5 on set pieces

This way he'll have high in the medium workload. With only 5 stamnia he will not be able to play much though, as he would tire out quickly. You could sub him each game when his condition runs out if he's really that much better than your other players

[leaderoftheshed]

Id pretty much agree with that. (I think Karax268 menat to write shooting instead of defending after attacking)

He has got pretty good set piece attributes, so thats something you may want to consider increasing workload in to maintian/improve these stats.

[robertgee]

this training is great, but I have a young lad whose physical stats are class and i dont want to waste training time or ca/pa points on improving his physical stats by 1 point or so, I wan thim to be the next Messi with quality technique.

Anyone know the number of clicks needed on the strength/aerobic sliders so it just maintains his stats for those and doesnt really improve them as I want to really max out all the other areas.

Thanks in advance.

[jim morrow]

Each player has his own maintain level for each training area...and it seems that more the attribute is high more the maintain level need to be high.

Do you think there is a magic formula for all players ?

[weeeman27bob]

If I want to use these training schedules, is all the information that I need in the OP ( including all the business about notches and the download link) or will I have to look through the thread for it?

[eterna]

If I want to use these training schedules, is all the information that I need in the OP ( including all the business about notches and the download link) or will I have to look through the thread for it?

If you are interested you might want to look through the thread but there's nothing stopping you from just plugging in the schedules and using them. There is in particular a post that fixes some problems with the schedules in the OP -- due to a miscalculation, some of the training levels were too high causing a high amount of injuries.

Here is a post with the "fixed" schedules: http://community.sigames.com/showpost.php?p=5032246&postcount=437

I had a question about the "short term" and "long term" injury schedules: are there guidelines regarding when and how long to have players on these schedules? I haven't used them before because I wasn't sure how to employ them.

Also has any progress been made on the "training schedules library"? I was looking forward to seeing that.

Thanks

[Death.]

I read that the Strength, Aerobic and Ball Control categories were miscounted for outfield players due to Natural Fitness, Reflexes and Flair; does this mean that Flair can't be improved in training? Is it just a fixed attribute similar to Bravery and Natural Fitness? Or can it be improved through match experience?

Also, is the GK test from the original download correct? In the Strength category it has 3 notches, and the category notes three attributes for goalkeepers: Natural Fitness, Strength and Stamina. Should it then be 2 notches instead of 3 if Natural Fitness is discounted? Or should Work Rate be displayed, though it isn't, and therefore 3 is the right notch anyway?

Thanks karax268. I'll see how i get on with that when he turns 17.

Edit: Just wondering as an aside, do young players ever grow? Or do they enter the game at their adult height?

[djkid85]

Look at ProZone's Baseline Sheet. Strength for GK Category is 3. Natural Fitness cannot be trained and is thus discounted, but Work Rate is included.

Download the updated schedules by DocSander I believe, read through the entire thread to understand the focus and baseline of a training schedule, a number of users have posted very good examples on how they edited the training schedule to a specific player to suit their needs. Also download Prozone's Training Multiplier sheet. They go hand in hand.

Btw, thanks Sfraser and Prozone for this brilliant thread. My understanding of training has increased and the results are showing.

[Cassian]

I think I finally understood what SFraser has discovered . It took me 3-4 readings (although i know English quite well, it seems sometimes it's not that easy to understand).

So, if Sfraser can confirm that what I'm about to say is wright, perhaps i can try to solve this as a math problem.

So, what does the training do? :

1. A player ... plays in a match (hypothesis); if he plays ... he will receive a certain amount of CA (let's say x which for now, i set it to be real << that is, atm i don't know if x must be >0, i guess it can be, as well x=0, and perhaps it can't be x < 0>> i mean you can't get more stupid playing). The amount of CA is dependent of some factors (as i understand, it has to do with, age, morale, condition and especially with rating... you can correct me here).

2. You, now, have a certain amount x of CA.

3. Training schedules ... don't... "train" .... (in the sense of teaching), BUT .... in fact, distributes the amount X of CA ... ---- (i mean like if you know how to add, you know how to multiply; by understanding that 3*x = x+x+x; so you don't learn something new when you learn multiplying, in fact the teacher just distributes your knowledge of adding into multiplying).

4. Now, depending on age and position (and other factors, too, but with less significance) the player can "train" in certain areas, more easily.

The most "easy" area to learn, being physical attributes (in fact one can presume, that even if you don't train a young player in strength and aerobic, he will still have an increase in those attributes, just by playing in a match, and by simply ... aging; but with no training this process will be extremely slow).

Now, his age and position will have a direct effect upon the distribution of CA.

The game will "tell" the CA accumulated to go first into Age&Position specific area (like physical for youngster, mental for veterans; attacking for strikers, tactical or ball control to midfielders).

So, we can presume that if we don't train a player at all, he will accumulate CA through playing, but that CA won't go anywhere (after a certain amount, it won't accumulate at all ...perhaps? being to much). If we decide to train him, then the amount of CA will start to move!!! ... the golden question being... where?

5. If we were to know exactly what area will receive CA (and at what weight from total CA gained)... then we'd be happier.

As I understand so far, SFraser and other, made some assumptions. We can now say we know already what will receive each area depending on position and age. What we don't know in fact, unfortunately, is the weight... the exact weight.

In order to be sure, we understand each other, let's say a Youngster, age 17, Central Defender.

We know he will receive most CA in physical and in Defense (I, for one, don't know exactly what goes where... i still have to think about this), and perhaps less in attacking and set pieces (this is just an example, don't try to correct me).

Now we have a decision to take.... do we like this "natural" distribution" ... yes/no ... Depending on your answer, you now start to train the player, adding more or less intensity to specific training areas.

Another aspect here, is how inpatient we are. If we want the player to reach faster certain levels in certain areas, we start to intensify the training (as i understand SFraser doesn't like Line Theory, so for now i don't know how many notches should there be, in order to increase the speed of "increasing attributes", perhaps he will tell us again, i might have missed it in the topic... OR... there is not specific number of notches in order to do that.... the speed is dependent on certain factors too ... so one youngster of 17 might speed up faster then another).

6. Now that we know that training just distributes CA accumulated, and that age+position (+other factors too, but less important) forces this distribution too, we have to come up with a plan.

Before that, though, SFraser told us:

a) that, in order to... not lose attributes in other ares (of no interest) we have to have a balanced training schedule;

b) that if we don't balance correctly the training schedule we might have another problem (other then decreasing attributes), we may interfere with the process of distribution of CA.

What do I mean... simply: we over-train ... if we do that, we'll tell CA to go somewhere but at a grater quantity that the game would "prefer" (perhaps the maximum amount of CA that can go into some area, is dependent on other factors too... if so, I don't know which ones).

Example: if one player doesn't improve jumping after a certain number, he won't be able to improve heading too .... (pls don't correct me here either...it's just an example, i already admitted that this is just a theory)....

What is the conclusion... the conclusion is: the "game" will distribute "an" amount of CA to where we want it, and after that it won't .... it will search for other areas where we established training, he will proceed to distribute there too. This will have 2 results:

a) Over-train for nothing, we surpass the amount decided by the game, then it won't distribute anything... OR

b) The game will start to distribute the remaining CA... to god knows where (random perhaps, but i doubt it).

7. Final conclusion, the main problem that keeps us far from perfect training, is that we don't know how to balance one training. Or if we are close... there are still many readers here who don't understand that training is something very dependable of many many things... so one man's training won't work for another man's game (player, save, whatever).

So what SFraser, and PRozone (i hope) can do .... is to direct us, to guide us to think for ourselves, and for those who still ask for training schedules already-made, I say to you... you still don't get it. What I think it can come out, of Sfraser and Prozone work, will be a general setup for a general position, one may say we would train for ordinary players, not stars. For any of us, to create a star, we need to understand this distribution, we need to write down, all his attributes, to see were he already has perfect stats, to look for bad areas, to connect them with proper training areas and in the end, to tell the game were we want him to distribute the CA gained.

In the end, I would like for SFraser to read my topic, to correct what ever mistakes i made in my judgment. After I know for sure that this is all correct, i can try to solve this as a math problem, something with simplex algorithm, trying to find base, feasible and optimum solutions to certain systems. I already know that we can write down some equations: Like alfa*strenght +beta*aerobic + gamma*tactic + delta*shooting + ...... = maximum workload training; and then somehow we need to set one training as a variable T and express all other according to this T. Example if Attack = T then Ball control = 2 T ... so we can rewrite the above equation replacing training names with variable T .... i don't know |NOW| how, i'll think about it after SFraser comments.

[Gee_Simpson]

Hi, I have been following this thread for a while now, I have read it over about 3 times & had difficulty understanding the whole thing.

I really wanted to create a specific schedule for a regen who is lacking in a few places.

Here is a pic of him.

As you can see he only has 5 for jumping so that was the main thing i wanted to focus on. I also wanted to improve his stamina & strength.

Here is the schedule i designed for him

What do you guys think? am i on the right track here? Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[kingjericho]

i will use the developing schedules. thanks, very good OP

[Fieldsy]

ok really interested in using this schedule. A few questions....

- At what age do people switch from 'developing' to '1st choice' and then to 'veteran'? Is this dependent upon the play or is there a general age when it is good to change? For example, Bentdner is only 21/22 yet been with the 1st team for 2-3 yrs. Would he be considered 'developing' or '1st team'?

- I take it these schedules are dependent upon the user chopping and changing based on people's stats? Also injuries etc?

- A little off topic but where can I find the file to show whether attributes increases or decreases?

- I have noticed that on the 1st choice AM training, little attention is giving to attacking. Do people find that the attacking attributes still improve?

- Do people find a lot of injuries with this schedule?

[phnompenhandy]

Fieldsy, there are many answers to your last 2 questions in the thread already.

Q1 - it's a matter of opinion really, but for me I base my decisions purely on age, not squad status. I have teenagers in my first team squad (even indispensible; I'm lower league) but I put them on 'developing'. At the other end of the age range, I try to notice when the physical attributes are beginning to go into terminal decline, then switch to veteran. The exact age varies from player to player, depending on natural fitness, position and variables like that.

your 'off-topic' question - go to the individual player's training screen - there is a record of all his attribute changes there.

[Gee_Simpson]

Hi, I have been following this thread for a while now, I have read it over about 3 times & had difficulty understanding the whole thing.

I really wanted to create a specific schedule for a regen who is lacking in a few places.

Here is a pic of him.

As you can see he only has 5 for jumping so that was the main thing i wanted to focus on. I also wanted to improve his stamina & strength.

Here is the schedule i designed for him

What do you guys think? am i on the right track here? Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Any advice on this?

Thanks.

[Fieldsy]

Fieldsy, there are many answers to your last 2 questions in the thread already.

Q1 - it's a matter of opinion really, but for me I base my decisions purely on age, not squad status. I have teenagers in my first team squad (even indispensible; I'm lower league) but I put them on 'developing'. At the other end of the age range, I try to notice when the physical attributes are beginning to go into terminal decline, then switch to veteran. The exact age varies from player to player, depending on natural fitness, position and variables like that.

QUOTE]

Thanks - I guess at the moment I am trying to get my head around the theory of training as I have never paid much attention to it at all. I have looked at the thread as a whole but dont have the time at the moment to read it indepth so apologies if I am asking stuff that has been posted already.

- What I cant seem to get my head round is the intensity of each training schedule. Most are 'heavy', however seem to be heavy due to tactical training rather than anything really physical. I take it the increased heavy workload compared to other training schedules will not cause that many injuries as it is tactical rather than physcial?

[Fieldsy]

Furthermore, from reading the thread, I understand that after downloading the schedules, I need to reduce the aerobic and strength sliders by a few notches?

[SFraser]

Reduced Workload reduces CA gain from training, but it also reduces condition loss/increases condition recovery and very likely reduces injury risk.

Distribution of training effect between attributes in a single category depends on attribute type and player Age. Technical/Mental/Physical attribute types have different rates and patterns of growth, and the precise rate/pattern at any specific time depends on the players age.

I would surmise that there is more to add to this list, but these are the known issues and anything else is speculation with a minor or non-obvious impact. For example Workload may define how much "ability" you are moving around, how quickly/slowly changes occur. I play by the assumption that this is true as it is logical and is in keeping with the general "themes" of the rest of the training mechanics, but I do not know for certain that it is true and it would be rather difficult to test as it would require an environment of zero CA change over time.

[SFraser]

Hmm it seems a post I quoted and responded to has completely disappeared.