Super keepers and one-on-ones

[Bongo-Bongo]

if that's the case then both the 2d and 3d views are so inaccurate that they might as well be worthless

Well, I wouldn't go that far, but I'd certainly say it's the most serious bug in the game. People who are suffering this almost every game probably don't have as good a set of tactics as they think, but, because this bug is causing their tactic to create countless one-on-ones, it's creating the illusion that their tactics are awesome and that supergoalies exist. And you can't really blame them for being angry, because all of the feedback makes their tactics look good.

[ArranoBeltza]

I'm playing as Tottenham right now, first season, and right now I'm playing at home against Sunderland. Milevskyi has gone over 1000 minutes without a goal largely due to super keepers, and Dzeko has gone about 560 minutes without a goal. So far in this game, Craig Gordon has made about 6 incredible saves, denying both to break the goalless streak.

[Swindon69]

On the subject of great/fantastic saves my only comment is that the AI keepers are on average twice as likely to pull them off be the shots from distance or closer to.

This rather sadly is based on me logging each one over four seasons.

[Kriss]

Actually between the two explanations:

a) Superkeepers exist as a safety valve to create relistic scorelines and

b) Superkeepers are not superkeepers but a combination of a bug creating unrealisticaly too many chances and a visual glitch that make bad chances look like good ones (I wonder what else they'll come up with)

it is pretty obvious which is the valid one. I rest my case.

I certainly go with B. FM has always created far more shots per match than rl, the question then becomes, is that preferable to ultimate realism which would certainly have me dosing off over my PC as a Brighton supporter:D

[argggggg]

There is a goal limiter (really bad for the human player). And most of my games are always tight whether I dominate or not (1.0, 2-1, 3-2, etc) and I struggle to score if I grab the first goal no matter what I do, no matter how many chances I get. And building a solid tactic that gives you lots of chances and limits the computer AI chances, from my experience, only seems gives the computer AI a super goalie and a super goal scoring ratio, rendering your new tactic(s) no better than the one you had before.

Edit: But it's like this to make it hard.

[Pangaea]

10.3 should get this one sorted I reckon.

[argggggg]

It's to stop you finding a winning tactic, to win every single game, because that would be unrealistic.

Edit: That's what makes this game hard... You have one horrid game and you think your tactics are pish. But that's not how the game works. A good tactic will determine how successful you are in the long run (how often you win and lose over a long period of time, etc). You will have your horrid games (game will stick to realism, the best teams don't win every game) but a good tactic will pull you through in the end.

Edit

[totalfootball]

From reading this, I think SI have got themselves into a big mess and won't be able to fix it for 10.3.

I would justify this by the lack of comment on their behalf.

[Bigshow1]

If you search the forum guys, this has been discussed loads and is being looked at for the patch.

[totalfootball]

"looked at" thats not exactly reassuring considering fm2010 was all about polishing and refining the game

[baker.simon]

From reading this, I think SI have got themselves into a big mess and won't be able to fix it for 10.3.

I would justify this by the lack of comment on their behalf.

Or you could justify their non-comment by saying they are spending their time fixing things rather than pacifying people on here. Or by thinking maybe that it's the weekend? SI staff, like other staff in other companies, also have lives and family outside of work.

[Bongo-Bongo]

From reading this, I think SI have got themselves into a big mess and won't be able to fix it for 10.3.

I would justify this by the lack of comment on their behalf.

They've commented on this numerous times in the past. I see no need for them to comment on every single thread on the subject.

[backpackant]

They only appear "super" with ONE type of chance, the defence-splitting-one-v-one type of chance. If they're they only chances you are creating then it IS your tactics. Like others have said it's to compensate for a problem that would make the game much worse, ie, stops scores ending 10-7. Overall number of goals scored is about right, but the ratio of chances-to-goals is way out.

[Vic Taylor]

They only appear "super" with ONE type of chance, the defence-splitting-one-v-one type of chance. If they're they only chances you are creating then it IS your tactics. Like others have said it's to compensate for a problem that would make the game much worse, ie, stops scores ending 10-7. Overall number of goals scored is about right, but the ratio of chances-to-goals is way out.

This basically sums everything up.

[argggggg]

This basically sums everything up.

Seriously dude, do you work for the company or something? lol

[Vic Taylor]

Seriously dude, do you work for the company or something? lol

No... but it has been stated several times by SI that this is the problem.

[Mar$haLL]

I played 3 games so far this season.

Game 1: Beat Reading away 2-1. 6 shots on target their keeper got 7.5

Game 2: Beat Darlington at home in cup 1-0. 12 shots on target their keeper got 8.3 (& M.O.T.M)

Game 3: Lost to West Brom at home 2-1. 11 shots on target their keeper got 8.5 (& M.O.T.M)

This is getting ridiculous!

[Bigshow1]

Read the threads. SI know about the problem and it's being sorted for the patch.

[Cikku]

I remember finding the match engine of FM09 as the best one ever in football manager. FM10 seems to be a decrease in quality in that respect. It's really disappointing since there are so many areas in the game which have been improved.

[ensar13]

it is allways the patch x.3 that makes the game perfect. It was allways and it will allways be.

So, now I know, that for FM2011 I will wait until februar to buy it. So I can play straight away with patch 11.3

By FM2008, I didn't buy it. I didn't wanted it. And then, in januar a friend gave me the game, I installed it, played it on patch 8.2, and then came the 8.3 it was perfect. (I can't remember if there were patch 8.3 or it was 8.2. But, I know it was the february patch)

[Swindon69]

What all this has confirmed is that next year if I buy the new version I'll wait 'till Feburary - I'm sick of the fact that opposition goalkeepers are statisically twice as likelyto pull out fantastic saves - I'm not talking about the CCC bullhooks but also from shots from distance etc.

[john----j]

Mate this game has been the most F..king REEE---DICK---U----LUS of the whole series. How the **** do you score 1 one ones. I cheated and built a team at Arenal of all the best players in the world.

Torres Rooney

Ronaldo De Rossi Fabregas Messi

Evra Vidic Ferdinand Maicon

Buffon

Cesar

Sagna

Cheillini

Clichy

Ribery

Xavi

Iniesta

David Villa

Aguero

Amazingly my first game finished Villa 2-2 Arsenal. After beating At Madrid 3-0 at home they beat me 3-1 away, lost to Blackburn 1-0 and drew 0-0 with Bolton all in my first 7 games so how ****ing realistic can this game be. **** will they get me to buy another copy.

[johnhendershot]

What all this has confirmed is that next year if I buy the new version I'll wait 'till Feburary - I'm sick of the fact that opposition goalkeepers are statisically twice as likelyto pull out fantastic saves - I'm not talking about the CCC bullhooks but also from shots from distance etc.

It's gotta be like that to make it tough. You're not playing a human so the computer will always have a better goalie and higher goal scoring ratio even in the new patch.

[azeri4life]

The point is that a faulty match engine leads to far too many one-on-ones so they all have to be saved - I can't recall ever scoring from one so I don't bother getting excited when a striker is clean through on goal. It will definitely be saved (I've never seen one missed or hit the post or something, all saved...).

[philly_flyer10]

The point is that a faulty match engine leads to far too many one-on-ones so they all have to be saved - I can't recall ever scoring from one so I don't bother getting excited when a striker is clean through on goal. It will definitely be saved (I've never seen one missed or hit the post or something, all saved...).

Exactly, FM is now dull because theres so many chances and thus most of these have to be missed to create a normal scoreline. Id rather a see a game with 3-7 chances as I know they will be much more likely to go in than a game with 20 chances with 10 of them being 30 yarders.

[ensar13]

The point is that a faulty match engine leads to far too many one-on-ones so they all have to be saved - I can't recall ever scoring from one so I don't bother getting excited when a striker is clean through on goal. It will definitely be saved (I've never seen one missed or hit the post or something, all saved...).

that's right. It seems that all striker are so perfect in shooting the goal. It doesn't matter in which situation they are, they allways (of course not allways, but in 70%) manage to shoot the ball on the goal. Sometimes, the striker gets in the box, and miss a complete clear chance, but I didn't saw this in the game

[tingting]

Dude, look around these forums, you will see the same people posting the same inane nonsense in various threads that as I said are about things that have been acknowledged, therefore they are not adding any value to the forums, just spreading their hate. Which is unnecessary. It may have sounded a bit pompous but I'd say that a large majority of people on these forums agree with my comment.

This forum used to abound with great ideas and ways to actually improve FM without the need to say 'SI suck' 'fanboys suck' 'this game sucks'. Who do these comments help?

I have just had a brilliant idea to overcome such posts...dont read it:rolleyes: Did the OP (or the person whom you targeted the post) actually asked your opinion?? Nobody cares...so when you see something that is worth the very precious time that you take to reply, then do so..no need to tell him what he is writing is not worthwhile. I think the only person(s) who have the right to ask someone to post or not post a particular topic are the mods (even then if it is specifically mentioned in the forum rules)...so when you are appointed the mod, then maybe you have the right to decide what is nonsense and what is not...so until then maybe you can spend your time in more worthwhile pursuits???

Edit: Maybe you need to follow your own advice???stop making nonsense replies and only post when you have had a brilliant and insightful idea:rolleyes:

[Fabio MVP]

Superkeepers exist to stop every game being 12-10. Theres way, way too many quality chances in FM and the only way to keep the score realistic is to make them miss most of them.

Also players who have just taken shots seem to freeze for a second and totally ignore any rebounds too, that needs to be fixed as well.

Well, F**K OFF actually .!. ! If you knew anything about sports, you would know that basketball players are the most iinteligent athletes.

So, basketball is by no means dull sport, fella!!

[saberhagen83]

They only appear "super" with ONE type of chance, the defence-splitting-one-v-one type of chance. If they're they only chances you are creating then it IS your tactics. Like others have said it's to compensate for a problem that would make the game much worse, ie, stops scores ending 10-7. Overall number of goals scored is about right, but the ratio of chances-to-goals is way out.

I just can't agree with this at all. Well I agree that the ME stops you from scoring from these chances to keep a realistic scoreline. But, it isn't tactics fault if you have a way of playing that creates these chances. There are teams that consistently keep play through the middle and look for that killer pass. Arsenal is a decent example of this. It's not the tactics fault, it's the game! If they cannot make defenders defend somewhat properly, I'd much rather see a game end 12-8 instead of watching players act as if it's the first time they have ever played football in their lives. Not to mention the AI does the exact same thing, they keep playing through the middle and we get all these gazillion missed chances all the time at both ends.

I play a 4-3-3 myself in the game and have completly left it gathering dust on my harddrive at the moment cause it's just to silly right now. Why should I have to change my tactic to suit the game rather than playing the way I want to? It's like a manager telling his players not to play a certain way cause it would exploit a weakness in the oppositions defence. It's not the only chances I create, as my fullback's offer attacking wingplay, but it is my preffered way of playing and I see no reason why I would have to change my way of playing.

[tingting]

There is a misconception that the only thing wrong with the game is the CDs drifting wide....but the reality is that the whole defensive aspect of the game (not just the back four or the keeper) is the problem. One thing i noticed is that the 10.1 patch or the original game had no problems wrt superkeepers (or as i like to say stupid strikers) Nor did i get very unrealistic results. I might be wrong here...but what i think is that a small percentage of gamers, who had the full knowledge of the ME and its problems, experienced high scores...while the large majority of average or casual gamers really did create logical tactics and did not experience such unrealistic scores on a consistent basis.

However the minority who experienced unrealistic scores are some of the more respected members of the forum, some of whom are also involved in beta testing and maybe do participate in bringing up ideas on how to make the ME more realistic. So SI listened to their viewpoint and decided to short fix the issue by creating the current problem. That is the reason why i think the large number of "superkeeper" threads have appeared in the forum since the majority were enjoying the game prior to the patch

[Swindon69]

I think you may have a point there - rather them worrying about a few people who build super tactics the focus should be on the rest of us. At the moment SI admit that defendings poor so to fix it they make finishing in one-on-ones poor.

This may sound radical how about they fix defending.

[Brian Shanahan]

Well frankly I never seem to have this problem, except for the odd match, and I've definitively not made up some super-tactic (otherwise I've found the tactic which would beat every version of the game since Cm 97/98). My last six matches with Betis showing CCCs and Goals (as the problem is with a particular type of CCC)

Team H/A Goals CCC

Albacete A 1 7

Rayo A 5 4

Recriat. H 4 3

Cadiz H 5 2

Cartage. A 3 3

Celta H 2 0

I play an attacking 4-4-2 with wingers which has only changed to reflect the changes in the tactics module (i.e. I've tried to keep as colse to the original as possible). The two things I've most noticed is that CCCs can easily be ignored (found this out in my very first save when I scored from two free headers in a game yet had no CCCs:confused:), and that if you get your players to pull wide they will get more of their one-on-ones at an angle, thus increasing their chances of scoring.

[Pangaea]

This just isn't the way development of the game goes down. There is one match engine, not one for human users and one for the AI. If we miss a lot of one-on-ones, so will the AI too.

I bet there are literally thousands of variables that need balancing. It's a shame something got out of whack on 10.2 creating this problem with strikers hitting it straight at the goalie most of the time, but I don't think I'm revealing too much when I say this has largely been rectified.

SI do listen to the community, probably more than any other gaming company in the world. Having said that, creating a match engine that perfectly simulates football is an incredibly difficult task. If you compare SI's match engine to anything else on the market I think we all know which one is head and shoulders above the rest. Developing it is a never-ending process though. There will always be something that can be done better, whether it's a striker falling on his arse on the wet surface when alone with the keeper, or ensuring DCs don't drift wide when they shouldn't. It is moving in the right direction, and that's the main thing.

[lacoste8030]

The ****ing problem is that i get so many shots and don't score cos of the superkeeper for the opposing team, but then how comes our defending is as babs as the ME becos of the bug but our keepers are easily beaten. I am trying to play the game and use my team and become a legend in the game fairly but wot is the point when the game is not being fair.

They say they are trying to make it more realistic every year but this is not real yeah it might happen one and a while but not ****ing every game. Also they have had since November and have released two patches since and they have not solved it in them two patches. Also they have a full year to make the game better so how does it become worse, also all the testing they do how the hell did they not notice the problem.

[wwfan]

There is a misconception that the only thing wrong with the game is the CDs drifting wide....but the reality is that the whole defensive aspect of the game (not just the back four or the keeper) is the problem. One thing i noticed is that the 10.1 patch or the original game had no problems wrt superkeepers (or as i like to say stupid strikers) Nor did i get very unrealistic results. I might be wrong here...but what i think is that a small percentage of gamers, who had the full knowledge of the ME and its problems, experienced high scores...while the large majority of average or casual gamers really did create logical tactics and did not experience such unrealistic scores on a consistent basis.

However the minority who experienced unrealistic scores are some of the more respected members of the forum, some of whom are also involved in beta testing and maybe do participate in bringing up ideas on how to make the ME more realistic. So SI listened to their viewpoint and decided to short fix the issue by creating the current problem. That is the reason why i think the large number of "superkeeper" threads have appeared in the forum since the majority were enjoying the game prior to the patch

That's an interesting theory. A long way off the mark, but interesting nonetheless.

There are no 'superkeepers'. The strikers hit the ball straight at them when they have run onto a through ball in a very central position. I could save most of these shots.

The problem is, and always has been, that these chances are unrealistic and only happen because the central defenders split. Most of them are created by very quick through balls that need to be struck first time or on the turn before the defenders close back in or require the shooter to run helter-skelter towards the goal with a pack of opponents chasing him, leading to the chance being scuffed straight at the keeper on a regular basis. The keeper doesn't even have to move. That it was not picked up in testing is because most testers aren't using a tactic that generates so many central chances, not the other way around.

The bug is in the type of chance creation (especially the quickly hit shots and sprints). They shouldn't be happening and are generally not great chances because of the above. The more a user manager tries to create such chances by exploiting this defensive split, the more frustration he will feel. He's not creating them through great tactical prowess, just exploiting a hole in the ME which enables a lot of shots from certain positions but sees very few being scored. Any type of tactic that tries to create a wealth of different chances (i.e. isn't one-dimensional) will have a far better goal per shot ratio.

[Norville Rodgers]

Have noticed that game-in, game-out, the Key Men to watch on both sides are the goalkeepers.

[Swindon69]

In response to wwfan - I use the preset 4-4-2 the only two changes I've made are my full-backs stay back and I've tweaked my centre halfs instructions. I play a varied passing game - not focused through the middle.

Yet still my strikers hit the ball at the keeper - wierdly my best result this season was having 12 shots on target no CCCs and winning 6-0.

My bigger complaint isn't actually the 1 on 1 CCC's it's more the fact that statistically the oppo keeper is twice as likely to pull out great/fantastic saves and I'm 33% more likely to hit the woodwork.

[Pace]

That's an interesting theory. A long way off the mark, but interesting nonetheless.

There are no 'superkeepers'. The strikers hit the ball straight at them when they have run onto a through ball in a very central position. I could save most of these shots.

The problem is, and always has been, that these chances are unrealistic and only happen because the central defenders split. Most of them are created by very quick through balls that need to be struck first time or on the turn before the defenders close back in or require the shooter to run helter-skelter towards the goal with a pack of opponents chasing him, leading to the chance being scuffed straight at the keeper on a regular basis. The keeper doesn't even have to move. That it was not picked up in testing is because most testers aren't using a tactic that generates so many central chances, not the other way around.

The bug is in the type of chance creation (especially the quickly hit shots and sprints). They shouldn't be happening and are generally not great chances because of the above. The more a user manager tries to create such chances by exploiting this defensive split, the more frustration he will feel. He's not creating them through great tactical prowess, just exploiting a hole in the ME which enables a lot of shots from certain positions but sees very few being scored. Any type of tactic that tries to create a wealth of different chances (i.e. isn't one-dimensional) will have a far better goal per shot ratio.

That's not true though, is it? What you mean is any tactic that doesn't utilise defence splitting through balls will have a better goal:shot ratio. The match engine doesn't reward diversity in chance creation by letting you score with that "bugged" through ball because you'd already tried 5 crosses that game, does it? The way to get the best ratio would be to use a tactic that never utilised through balls, which I'd argue would be just as boring and "one-dimensional" as playing narrowly.

[PaulC]

The perceived issue with one on one's in 10.2 is down to keeper reach at point blank range being too large.

It has been fixed in 10.3.

[wwfan]

In response to wwfan - I use the preset 4-4-2 the only two changes I've made are my full-backs stay back and I've tweaked my centre halfs instructions. I play a varied passing game - not focused through the middle.

Yet still my strikers hit the ball at the keeper - wierdly my best result this season was having 12 shots on target no CCCs and winning 6-0.

My bigger complaint isn't actually the 1 on 1 CCC's it's more the fact that statistically the oppo keeper is twice as likely to pull out great/fantastic saves and I'm 33% more likely to hit the woodwork.

Which reduces passing angles in and around the box, thus producing more of the central chances that produce a lot of saves. Full backs provide vital width, enabling a wider spread of passes and opening passing angles into the box. Keeping them back will limit your options.

That's not true though, is it? What you mean is any tactic that doesn't utilise defence splitting through balls will have a better goal:shot ratio. The match engine doesn't reward diversity in chance creation by letting you score with that "bugged" through ball because you'd already tried 5 crosses that game, does it? The way to get the best ratio would be to use a tactic that never utilised through balls, which I'd argue would be just as boring and "one-dimensional" as playing narrowly.

Anlged through balls tend to produce chances in which the shooter has more time as they are placed right into his path, meaning he doesn't have to swivel and shoot or stuggle for control as he would do on a straight one played from directly behind him. Any kind of angled pass through the defence is pretty likely to be scored, as it would be in real life. It's just the weird straight chances that aren't converted.

Tactical options that might generate such chances are as follows:

• Keeping your FBs back
  
• Playing without wingers
  
• Playing with a very narrow width
  
• Playing at a very high tempo
  
• Using the Run onto Ball Target Man option
  
• A combination of the above
  

As Paul has posted, the mechanics behind the bug have been identified and fixed (although he didn't mention the fixes to central defender drift). However, your choice of tactics can increase or decrease the number of times such an issue happens.