The Brazil Thread

[docklanders]

Josué - Hernanes should take his place

Precisely .

[Noob21]

Sounds familiar...

Does he look like a b*tch? With glasses

[Noob21]

I never seen a bigger outcry for Ronaldinho to be included into something in my life

Still better than Julio B.

Then again JB is the type of the player a manager likes, can play everywhere and doesn't mind if he's on the bench

[PMLF]

For Dunga's sake, Brazil will really have to win the WC, otherwise Dunga's poor selection of players will haunt him forever, as there will always be a "what if" this or that player was in the squad.

If Brazil lose, as we said when his Brazil started winning, Dunga will be regarded as a new Sebastião Lazaroni (the manager who could only take Brazil to the Round of 16 in 1990).

[Noob21]

Júlio César

Gomes - Victor could take his place

Doni - Marcos, Bruno, Fábio, etc... could take his place

Maicon

Daniel Alves

Juan

Lúcio

Luisão - Miranda could take his place

Thiago Silva

Gilberto

Michel Bastos - Roberto Carlos could take his place

Gilberto Silva

Felipe Melo

Josué - Hernanes could take his place

Kléberson

Elano

Ramires

Kaká

Júlio Baptista - Paulo Henrique could take his place

Luís Fabiano

Nilmar

Robinho

Grafite - Adriano or if not him, someone like Fred (although a different kind of player) could take his place

Just the changes above and we would have 10 Brazil-based players and the squad would actually improve as well. And I didn't even include Pierre instead of Gilberto Silva, etc...

tbh you didn't expect him to make any radical changes from the Confed. cup squad? Kleber and Andre Santos were weeded out and Pato was a decoration and Miranda was a late replacement

There are managers like Dunga and then there are the Maradonas

[PMLF]

tbh you didn't expect him to make any radical changes from the Confed. cup squad? Kleber and Andre Santos were weeded out and Pato was a decoration and Miranda was a late replacement

I didn't expect anything new from him, and Adriano aside, all the other players were exactly the ones I expected/feared. My point was just that if he wanted, he could have made a much more Brazilian team without filling the squad with European trash players.

There are managers like Dunga and then there are the Maradonas

At this point I wonder if it wouldn't be better if we had a Maradona...

[masteR+_+]

I'd like all-Brazil based player friendlies like Maradona does.

[samba23]

There's a spectrum of management regarding squad selections.

At one end you have Dunga who sticks rigidly to his preferred players regardless of form and refuses to call up new players regardless of form.

At the other end you have Maradona who will pick anyone and everyone in his squads and will give anyone a chance.

Both styles of management are as bad as each other. Dunga's advantage is that he can argue that the results have been good but if you scratch below the surface then there are deep flaws in his Brazil side that makes it very unlikely that they will win the World Cup.

[PMLF]

There's a spectrum of management regarding squad selections.

At one end you have Dunga who sticks rigidly to his preferred players regardless of form and refuses to call up new players regardless of form.

At the other end you have Maradona who will pick anyone and everyone in his squads and will give anyone a chance.

Both styles of management are as bad as each other. Dunga's advantage is that he can argue that the results have been good but if you scratch below the surface then there are deep flaws in his Brazil side that makes it very unlikely that they will win the World Cup.

Brazil's results are mostly because the team style is very good (Dunga has no plan B though), and hides the mediocrity of the players.

I'd like all-Brazil based player friendlies like Maradona does.

Yes, at least those teams Maradona fielded in those games are authentic national teams, all these "foreigners" in the squad spoil any fun of supporting Brazil.

I'll certainly be supporting only Gilberto, Kléberson and Robinho but not the squad as a whole.

[samba23]

At this point I wonder if it wouldn't be better if we had a Maradona...

Wait until Maradona announces his squad and does something crazy like drop Messi

[ibra8]

Luisão & Ramires:cool:

[Helarxe]

Let's invent false Dunga quotes:

"I won't call up the additional 7 player list because I'm not worried about injuries to the main team, vaso ruim não quebra."

[PMLF]

Wait until Maradona announces his squad and does something crazy like drop Messi

There is a good chance he includes Martín Palermo, who is one of my favorite players, and if he does indeed do that, for me his selection of players will already have been more interesting than Dunga's.

Let's invent false Dunga quotes:

"I won't call up the additional 7 player list because I'm not worried about injuries to the main team, vaso ruim não quebra."

[Micado]

I

At this point I wonder if it wouldn't be better if we had a Maradona...

Now you are really loosing it

[PMLF]

Now you are really loosing it

In reality I wouldn't really want either a Dunga or Maradona as none of them have done anything as managers to manage their national teams. Dunga won some titles, but none of them will really matter if Brazil lose the WC.

I want a manager that is experienced enough, and that is more focused on our domestic football.

[Lisandro Lopez]

Lots of joke players, Doni, M. Bastos, Josué, Grafite...

Such trolling.

They are explaining now how the squad and the press conference will work. I really there are a couple of Brazil-based surprises in the squad.

Grafite

Made me chuckle.

[Micado]

In reality I wouldn't really want either a Dunga or Maradona as none of them have done anything as managers to manage their national teams. Dunga won some titles, but none of them will really matter if Brazil lose the WC.

I want a manager that is experienced enough, and that is more focused on our domestic football.

so who would that be then.

I felt the same when we appointed Van Basten, no experience at all (although he did focus on our domestic league, pff me and roberto_o154 are the only Dutch men between 16 and 36 years who didn't get a call up ).

[PMLF]

so who would that be then.

I felt the same when we appointed Van Basten, no experience at all (although he did focus on our domestic league, pff me and roberto_o154 are the only Dutch men between 16 and 36 years who didn't get a call up ).

I don't know exactly would focus more on our football than on foreign one, maybe someone like Joel Santana or some other manager who has never played abroad (when he was a player).

Otherwise some quotas on domestic players (say 50%+1 of the squad and of the first teamers) could come into play to fix that issue, but CBF would never do that.

[PMLF]

The 7 other players will be called up later on today, probably Victor will be in it, I won't be surprised if Adriano fails to make that list as well.

Carlos Eduardo will probably be in it too, as Dunga praised him today. Although he is a good player, including him in the extra 7 players list makes a mockery of the national team since he plays for Hoffenheim.

[gaga_4_parma]

Carlos Eduardo will probably be in it too, as Dunga praised him today. Although he is a good player, including him in the extra 7 players list makes a mockery of the national team since he plays for Hoffenheim.

Still he plays in the 3rd/4th best league in Europe...

[masteR+_+]

Who cares tbf?

It's like if he played for Juventude, who were good/had some money in the early 2000s or so.

[PMLF]

Still he plays in the 3rd/4th best league in Europe...

That doesn't mean anything though, Hoffenheim are still a tiny team that fight against relegation. If were to call up only players from the supposed to be better leagues (and I say supposed to be because there is no real evidence proving one league is better than the other, apart from the top teams), then Dunga could very well call up only Spain and England based players.

[samba23]

Hoffenheim have bigger attendances than Santos for example and they finished higher in their league than Santos, Botafogo and Fluminense did last season.

Even using the argument that Hoffenheim is a tiny place and the club has no history is invalid because Villarreal are the same and I doubt you want Nilmar not to be in the squad because he plays for a small team.

Saying that Hoffenheim are a small team is ignorant, the same as saying that Santos, Botafogo and Fluminense are small teams.

[PMLF]

Hoffenheim have bigger attendances than Santos for example and they finished higher in their league than Santos, Botafogo and Fluminense did last season.

Even using the argument that Hoffenheim is a tiny place and the club has no history is invalid because Villarreal are the same and I doubt you want Nilmar not to be in the squad because he plays for a small team.

Saying that Hoffenheim are a small team is ignorant, the same as saying that Santos, Botafogo and Fluminense are small teams.

Players from Villarreal shouldn't be called up either regardless of how much I like Nilmar, and Hoffenheim are a small team, not long ago they were not even in top division.

And in Brazil we have 12 big teams, not only one like Germany.

The attendances are irrelevant and there are millions of reasons to explain the differences between different countries.

[G-Man11]

Not this argument again. Personally I agree with samba but I see no point going through the thing again.

[PMLF]

Regarding this small team vs big team discussion, it's important to understand that Brazil is a team that fight for titles, and so need players that are used to doing so.

Nilmar at least has the advantage of having done so pretty recently as he played for Internacional. Carlos Eduardo played for Grêmio (another big team) but left too early and at Hoffenheim he will never learn what is like to play big games, unless we count fight against relegation as something big.

I fully realize that for other national teams is fine to have players from midtable or lower table though.

[Mario]

Attendances

Nilmar wouldn't be playing for Villarreal and for the seleção at the same time now if earlier he hadn't play for Internacional and Corinthians AND the seleção. It just happens that hewas bought out in 2009.

Carlos Eduardo was a terrific talent for Grêmio in the first semestre of 2007 when they were runners-up at the Libertadores (Lucas also playing) and that's all we had of him, then he moved to Hoffenheim to play the second division there. You cannot compare this case to Nilmar's anyway. Good thing Hoffenheim have a sugar daddy, so they could assemble a good squad, but they are so small right now. Maybe by the end of the next decade people will see them as a sort of Bayer Leverkusen, just like Bayer did with similar steps in the late 80s, even signing some brazilians (Tita, Jorginho, etc) just like Hasselhoff did with Carlinhos, Wellington, etc.

[PMLF]

Leverkusen, as like Deportivo too (in Spain) back then, at least fought for the title (including Euro titles) for many years in a row. I don't like them much either, but at least you can make a case for them.

Hoffenheim are like Stoke or Xerez, just with more money.

[masteR+_+]

Saying that Hoffenheim are a small team is ignorant, the same as saying that Santos, Botafogo and Fluminense are small teams.

Yeah, the very same thing, a quick look in past 2/3 season league tables is enough to assert this.

[Mario]

Yes, agreed.

And saying attendances mean anything... which actor is best? The one at an expensive theater or the one in the street? Which is the best surgeon, the one doing it live on tv or the one assessored by a small team? It's a meaningless question. It's about active talent, not about something passive.

I really missed both Alexes in this team.

[PMLF]

Yes, agreed.

And saying attendances mean anything... which actor is best? The one at an expensive theater or the one in the street? Which is the best surgeon, the one doing it live on tv or the one assessored by a small team? It's a meaningless question. It's about active talent, not about something passive.

I really missed both Alexes in this team.

Yes, Spartak's Alex could have been a good player for the team as he could be taken as one of the meias and free one of the left-backs places at the same time (since he can play there too).

Fener's Alex is great too but I had not even a very small hope of seeing him in the team.

[Crazy_T]

hoffenheim are a small team, you can't really argue against that, but I don't see why players shouldn't be called up just because they don't play for real madrid, barca, milan etc

if they are good enough and in form then that's enough for me, try them out and see if they can replicate it at international level or not. you'll soon find out if they can cope or have the right mentality/ability then.

I wouldn't just say oh he plays for sevilla, villarreal, tottenham, fiorentina, and say no because of that. as long as it's a competitive league (aka not the middle east etc) then they should be fine. even better if they play in spain/england/italy (imo), but it's not a deciding factor.

in the same way that if they are playing well in brazil they should be given a chance, whether it's at santos, flamengo, gremio or some smaller team.

[Colorado]

Any idea's as to when the additional seven names will be released? Why didnt they confirm them at the same time?

[PMLF]

hoffenheim are a small team, you can't really argue against that, but I don't see why players shouldn't be called up just because they don't play for real madrid, barca, milan etc

if they are good enough and in form then that's enough for me, try them out and see if they can replicate it at international level or not. you'll soon find out if they can cope or have the right mentality/ability then.

I wouldn't just say oh he plays for sevilla, villarreal, tottenham, fiorentina, and say no because of that. as long as it's a competitive league (aka not the middle east etc) then they should be fine. even better if they play in spain/england/italy (imo), but it's not a deciding factor.

in the same way that if they are playing well in brazil they should be given a chance, whether it's at santos, flamengo, gremio or some smaller team.

Arguably the Mideastern leagues are more competitive than the Euro ones, as some of them have 3-4-5 teams fighting for the title while in Europe it's often only 2 teams.

But I don't trust small team players since they tend to have a small team mentality regardless of how good they are.

Any idea's as to when the additional seven names will be released? Why didnt they confirm them at the same time?

Probably at night, not much info beyond that yet.

[Mario]

If he is in Brasil he is already somewhere in the national consciousness, you cannot say the same about Sevilla eventhough I agree with you that talent should be given a try regardless of origin.

Sevilla a decade ago was nothing by the way.

[Colorado]

I wouldn't just say oh he plays for sevilla, villarreal, tottenham, fiorentina, and say no because of that. as long as it's a competitive league (aka not the middle east etc) then they should be fine. even better if they play in spain/england/italy (imo), but it's not a deciding factor.

I think the issue is that the experience player's gain through having been under pressure and winning major finals etc gives the players and added quality, which is seen as significant factor in the preparational 'make-up' of a player.

Compared to European football, preparation is seen in a different light in Brazil.

[iamjerome]

don't think you can write off a player (not that any of you are) based purely on the club he's at really, i understand what you're saying re small club mentality but i guess you have it look at it on a case by case basis with players' personalities etc. hard to judge.

[PMLF]

don't think you can write off a player (not that any of you are) based purely on the club he's at really, i understand what you're saying re small club mentality but i guess you have it look at it on a case by case basis with players' personalities etc. hard to judge.

The thing is that you can call up only a limited amount of players and have only a limited amount of games to test them, so better give chances first to those who are used to big games and finals than players who aren't.

My problem is not with Carlos Eduardo per se as I think he is very good, but chances are a player playing for a team like his will not handle the national team pressure, while a player from a big club is used to volatile fans, the pressure of finals, etc...

Maradona fixed the lack of games issue playing lots of extra ones, although he didn't use foreign-based players, but CBF is too dumb/weak/uninterested to do the same.

[masteR+_+]

don't think you can write off a player (not that any of you are) based purely on the club he's at really, i understand what you're saying re small club mentality but i guess you have it look at it on a case by case basis with players' personalities etc. hard to judge.

That's why Nilmar sparks wildly different reactions to those Grafite does tbf.

[PMLF]

That's why Nilmar sparks wildly different reactions to those Grafite does tbf.

Yes, Nilmar is essentially a big team player playing for a small team. Grafite always played for small teams bar short spells at Grêmio and São Paulo (and he was hardly brilliant in those teams).

[Mario]

The thing is that you can call up only a limited amount of players and have only a limited amount of games to test them, so better give chances first to those who are used to big games and finals than players who aren't.

My problem is not with Carlos Eduardo per se as I think he is very good, but chances are a player playing for a team like his will not handle the national team pressure, while a player from a big club is used to volatile fans, the pressure of finals, etc...

Maradona fixed the lack of games issue playing lots of extra ones, although he didn't use foreign-based players, but CBF is too dumb/weak/uninterested to do the same.

And this is why when people think of Carlos Eduardo they relate him to Grêmio and not to Hoffenheim.

Bebeto was Flamengo and Vasco, not Deportivo, although Depor was Bebeto, Fran, Mauro Silva, Donato, etc.

[PMLF]

And this is why when people think of Carlos Eduardo they relate him to Grêmio and not to Hoffenheim.

Bebeto was Flamengo and Vasco, not Deportivo, although Depor was Bebeto, Fran, Mauro Silva, Donato, etc.

Yes, whenever I talk to someone who is not a football freak like us, I have to mention that a player like Carlos Eduardo played for Grêmio, or that Grafite played for São Paulo because otherwise the person won't even recognize the club's name and won't relate the player as he is now to him in Brazil.

[PMLF]

Leaving aside the discussion about the smallness of some clubs, the general reaction to the squad seem to be similar to us here: Grafite aside, a rubbish squad with no surprises

I can't wait to see the other 7 players...but they will be more or less the ones we expect, Victor, Miranda, Carlos Eduardo, maybe Diego Tardelli instead of Adriano.

[brett.spurs]

I take it Sandro has no chance of being in the other 7?

[PMLF]

I take it Sandro has no chance of being in the other 7?

Unfortunately he hasn't, I expect Lucas to be selected before him. Not that I have anything against Lucas, it's pretty much the contrary, I like Lucas a lot, but Sandro still plays for Inter so I would rather have him in the other 7 than a foreign-based player.

[masteR+_+]

Grafite aside, a rubbish squad

Am I reading this properly?

[PMLF]

Am I reading this properly?

I worded poorly but I meant to say Grafite aside as in he was the only surprise player. He is probably one of the most rubbish players in the squad, even more than someone like Josué.

A rubbish squad with no surprises (except for Grafite).

[PMLF]

Dunga actually just called up the other 7 players, and have lots more surprises than the 23, includes Sandro too and is arguably better than the 23 ones.

The guy is a madman!

Alex (Chelsea)

Marcelo (Real Madrid)

Sandro (Inter)

Ronaldinho Gaúcho (Milan)

Paulo Henrique (Santos)

Carlos Eduardo (that small German team)

Diego Tardelli (Atlético Mineiro)

[facesinpatterns]

Dunga actually just called up the other 7 players, and have lots more surprises than the 23, includes Sandro too and is arguably better than the 23 ones.

The guy is a madman!

Alex (Chelsea)

Marcelo (Real Madrid)

Sandro (Inter)

Ronaldinho Gaúcho (Milan)

Paulo Henrique (Santos)

Carlos Eduardo (that small German team)

Diego Tardelli (Atlético Mineiro)

No Alex :(

But it doesnt seem that bad maybe a halfway thumbs up.

[Helarxe]

The Seven Samurai of Hope.

Pity they're pretty much just a consolation, since they won't go due to the vaso ruim thing