The 2-6-2-Rule. An Approach To Creating Tactics In FM 08.

[Kautela]

Originally posted by Kautela:

It cannot put the tactic download?

[Guest]

your disposition is like this??

cheers

[Jinli]

will be really good u can put up the home,counter/away tactic for ppl who doesn't know how to set these setting.

[real_pervert]

Originally posted by zagallo:

Great success with Milan. Congrats. I feel this setup is kind of made for this team... Keep it up.

I haven’t used it against a christmas tree yet. Did the attacks come from the flanks or from the center?

I would try to find the hole and try to fill it. For now there are only two thoughts that might help you:

1. I have tried the ideas from Leroy1883 and Alexio in a very tough away game. I put the DMC on the same mentality as the DCs and the target man on team mentality. So the 2-6-2 becomes a 3-6-1 then. Worked quite well. Don’t know if it helps vs. 4-3-2-1.

2. What could be helpful is if you push the AMC back into the MC position. Either by putting him there or by giving him a back arrow while keeping the same player instructions. That way he might support the DMC more and can reduce the hole in midfield. I tested this tweak when playing against stronger sides having a good DMC. That way the (A)MC had more space to build up play and/or draw the DMC away from defense. I know that the 4-3-2-1 uses no DMC, but I would try this.

Thanks Zagallo for your reply. The attacks mainly came from the two AMCs (behind the single striker), they just easily dribble the ball past my holding midfielder...

Their three MCs (behind the AMCs) act as a holding line against my attacking mids, and most of the time my AMC suffered a lot as he easily got beaten by one of their MCs. When my AMC gets dispossessed, usually their right sided or left sided MC quickly pass the ball to one of their AMCs, either a through ball or a long/direct pass, and my defenders (including my DMC) couldn't do anything to stop it, it's just down to my GK's brilliance to deny their scoring chances...

Right now I'm using a similar 4-3-2-1 formation that I got from the default FM 2008 tactic folder (folder:C/Program Files/Sports Interactive/Football Manager 2008/data/tactic). So far so good, I've won all my last four games since using that formation. The only changes I made is adjusting the mentality and tempo sliders. I'd like to apply your 262 rule to this tactic and I'll report back with the results as soon as I can.

[wwfan]

Great logic and a most enjoyable read.

However, I would like to ask you to experiment with a flat midfield. I believe the diamond offers a structural advantage over the AI's 4-4-2 (in 8.0.1 anyway). If the system works equally well with a 4-4-2 then you really have something.

[Burre]

Zagallo

If a want my Juve team to play attacking i use high tempo right? but how do i use width? should i play wide or narrow for best offensiv tactic.

Thanks for a graet tread zagallo

[Filbert Fox]

Thanks zagallo.

To be honest I'm more interested in the defence aspect of your tactic than the strikers. I'm banging them in with my 4 1 4 1 tactic but just can't keep clean sheets.

[garfy]

Well after my 1st season as Man City - comming 2nd in prem league 2 pts behind united & scoring loads (but conceeding far too many) - playing a 4-3-2-1 tactic i thought i'd try this for new season - playing 4-4-2.

1st game away to blackburn - i concede a goal after 42 seconds - then another within 10 mins - i loose game 4-0 - defense a shambles

Back to my old formation & tactics methinks

[bob payne]

Terrific theories Zagallo, works particularly well with my League 1 Crewe side. Like WWfan, I'd love to see how you would use this with a flat midfield, simply because i have an abundance of good MC's who aren't too hot in DMC or AMC.

I've tried a few experiments with it myself, without much success.

Once again, thanks for some well thought out ideas.

[sannyasin]

very good thread !!

can you explain more about closing down&defensive line please?

[Fudger]

Any chance of us being able to download this? Seems good. Brilliant opening post.

[Guest]

@panomaniac

Great to hear, that it works in a 4-3-3. Perfect. Good luck in France though.

@xLoShevchenko

Almost. I do not use farrows on the fullbacks but on the wingers.

@real_pervert

Okay, got it. Did you have a chance to try putting the AMC back vs. the 4-3-2-1? Would be interesting.

Also can’t wait to hear how the 4-2-3-1 works.

@wwfan & bob payne

Thank you. And yes, I see it the same way. I’ll start a new game soon trying it with a flat midfield. Let’s see how that works out...

@Burre

I am not using quick tempo at the moment. In my attacking formation, I have tempo on the highest position of normal. Width on the first or second position of wide. When playing counter I reduce both, tempo just a bit, width to the 2nd position from the middle (as you can see above).

@Filbert Fox

Okay, but I am not sure whether it makes sense to split the framework up. Above I posted my closing-down settings and in the first post you will find the defensive line and the defenders individual settings.

@garfy

Sorry, it didn’t work for you. Did you use a flat 4-4-2? Probably it needs some changes - I still haven’t tested it.

@sannyasin

The team closing-down is on 12 - as I don’t want the team to be pressing.

The DCs closing-down is on 5 - as I need them behind the ball most of the times.

The FBs closing down is on 9 or 10 - as I want them to close down as soon as my wingers are passed.

The DMC is on 16 - to stop the attacker before he reaches the defensive line.

The wingers are on 15 (often) - to keep the wings locked safely.

The rest of the team is on own-half (pls see picture above) - to help the team when needed.

Only the fast striker is set to „own area“ to give him as much space as possible.

For the defensive line I use 14 in attacking set-up, using offside trap. 8 or 9 for counters, 7 for tougher games. Never deep, as this invites the opposition too much.

Does that help?

@Fudger & Jinli

Sorry guys, but as you might have read, there are still some issues, that do not work properly for some. I would like to tweak and test some more before I upload the set. But I will.

[garfy]

Originally posted by zagallo:

@garfy

Sorry, it didn’t work for you. Did you use a flat 4-4-2? Probably it needs some changes - I still haven’t tested it.

No need to apologise - the fault is all mine - I was trying to play too attacking i think - i tweaked using counter attack - slighty changed CD's settings - re-played & won 2 nil with a great ammount of shots.

2nd game (also away) i actually lost 1-0 to west ham - but team played very well & created loads of chances - lost to a lucky goal - but hey thats football!!!

[dogs]

Just wanted to add that this basic principle when applied to my tactic as a tweak along with the other "creative freedom" suggestion elsewhere, made my Staly team almost unbeatable in the Prem 2017

[dogs]

Jpegs of tweaks applying the 2-6-2 system

Creative Freedom and Overall Team

Mentality and Overlook of Tactic

Recent Success since tweaks

[dogs]

Pics showing tactic, creative freedom/ mentality, achievements etc

ok that didnt work heres a link to the three pics

Pics Here

can a mod delete my last post cheers.

[heathxxx]

Great work zagallo, very well thought out and explained principals.

Have seen alot of requests from people to download the tactic, but in essence there's no need to.

If you apply some of the principals to your own formations and tactics, you can get excellent results from what's discussed here.

My own "formation", is basically a flat 4-4-2 which is adapted with the use of "barrows" & "farrows. It's very similar to the "Fiora2" tactic's formation, which is around here in this forum somewhere, but totally different insofar as the slider "mentality" settings are concerned.

The emphasis here is pointed more towards the mentality of the players within the means of the slider settings, moreso than a particular formation IMO.

Using the principals described here and some of the other slider related threads, provides a far better understanding of the cause and effects of the different settings.

For my own part, I've been tinkering around with Creative Freedom. I prefer to limit creativity of non-creative players and restrict it more than is suggested by zagallo in his original post. That's not to say either of us are right or wrong. In essence, they should be altered by the user to suit your own players mentalities.

The principals that zagallo has presented are some of the best thought out that I've seen discussed in a long while, certainly for FM08.

[Hawshiels]

Zagallo

Great post

I wish I had taken the time to read this much earlier. I had however been appreciating another thread with heathxxx about the use of creative freedom and I believe that I was going through a thought process similar to yours but not nearly as well thought through or as clearly explained. In fact my mind was a mess with it all.

I knew what I wanted to achieve - especially the importance of the full-backs in the tactics - but couldn't find a way to implement it.

Having read your post, it is clear that others do not need to go through the weeks of frustration I did to come to some of these conclusions. If they read what you've written and also visit the excellent thread by heathxxx I am sure they will learn what they need to.

I'm now off to implement the mentality section of your post - which I've now appreciated is missing from my tactics. I hadn't appreciated how useful it is to have the DCs and FC anchored - in terms of mentality - whilst allowing the rest of the engine room in the team to be flexible. I was having to make individual settings on a game by game basis (not much though) to get the desired effect but what you've written here makes much sense. I only have one forward and a different formation but the principles of your post are what is important.

Cheers. Good work.

[yugular]

Zagallo

I am back with some results.

Im not fluent in English as I am a Finn so apology if you dont understand what I am trying to explain.

First about my squad (Braga still). They are pretty much average players and especially Central defenders seem to lack all the abilities that make for a solid DC. Also I dont have good pacey Striker but I do have good TM or two. Wingers and fullbacks are decent and should do well.

Round 4; ag. Naval (Away); Defensive tactic; Naval considered a lot weaker side

score 1-1 (1-0)

shots 20-3

on goal 14-2

possession 51-49

Naval gets early lead with nice counter attack as their AMR dribbles past my DL and crosses to Striker who wons the header over my DC and scores.

I score on 49th minute as my DR plays a good through ball from deep and my Striker takes it and dribbles past one defender and shoots the ball into the back of the net!

Naval was clearly a better side... I am already thinking a new team...

UEFA CUP; FC Cobenhavn (Away); Counter Tactic; cannot really say which team is better - I think Braga should be slighlty better.

score 0-3 (0-2)

shots 20-16

on goal 12-11

possession 49-51

I picked up a pacey striker from my U19 squad for starting eleven which proved to be a good choice as he assisted two goals and was most dangerous player in the pitch. Unfortunately this player is not registered for league so he will only be eligible to play in UEFA CUP.

I scored two goals in the first 20mins (AMC+TM). Both were attacks through the middle. Third goal (AMR) was nice counter attack. I also got many nice counter attacks during the second half but my wingers crossing was not the best of quality today.

Good result but again my goalkeeper was very busy. Luckily he has playes well this season!! Hopefully this win boosts morale...

Round 5; Leixoes (Home); Home tactic; Im better team

score 0-1 (0-1)

shots 6-21

on goal 3-14

poss 43-57

Leixoes get early lead with attack from right flank. Nice cross to far post where my DR fails to cope with Leixoes AMC who scores.

Again in this game the ball is too easily played behind my defensive line. I wonder how I can prevent that? I didnt got any good goal scoring opportunities.

National Cup; Santa Clara (away); Home tactic; I have a lot stronger team

score 0-0 pens.4-2

shots 10-12

on goal 3-6

poss 49-51

I managed to rule the game slightly and get some good scoring opportunities that my attackers failed to finish. Lost on penalties.

----------------------------------------------

Closure:

This approach didnt work for Braga. I conceded only 5 goals in 7 games which is good but my keeper saved awful lots of shots. My goalkeepers average rating in all competiotions is almost 8!

Main worry was also that i didnt build up many chances and only scored 4 times (three against cobenhavn). Next thing is that I retire and create new manager for some other team and try these tactics again... If you have any suggestions feel free to impress yourself, ill be back someday when I have time...

Is it okay that I make this kind of posts into this thread? Just a word and I am silent! If you welcome this kind of experiment then I am willing to give this approach another try!

[heathxxx]

Im not fluent in English as I am a Finn so apology if you dont understand what I am trying to explain.

Your English is actually far better than alot of "native" speakers we read on the forums yugular.

Maybe you need to tweek a few more areas to suit the players better, or it may just be that against the higher reputation clubs in Europe, a more defensive approach would suit better against the higher reputation clubs.

Reputation is important to consider when tweeking tactics, responding to media and with team talks.

[yugular]

Thanks for compliments heathxxx

Little addition to my previos post:

I dont blame the approach and I still believe (at least I want to) that it can work. Some things I didn't consider/take in to account and that have an influence on the game:

- Opponents tactics: As this is an approach and not a "ready win-all tactic" opponent tactics need to be taken account. In Portugal many teams play 4-2-3-1 with three AMCs and maybe this approach is not the best solution against this kind of formations.

- Morale: Poor start and morale drops. This has effect.

- My squad: My squad was not so good as it looked. The strenghts were in the flanks whereas a 442 Diamond reguires key players into DC DMC AMC positions. I also didn't have good pacey Striker. All my Strikers except the young one had pace and acceleration <15 which is too low in top level.

- I: I am experienced player - yes. BUT I have had troubles in this new version (FM2008). I need to seriously concentrate more on this game when I have the time.

- Also training (I cant make it work and Seasoned Alcoholics? schedules only make it worse) and luck have affect.

[heathxxx]

I use Tugs Training with some success yugular, can't remember where it is on the forums here though...

hang on... here it is:

Tugs Training

Dispite a few people that say it does'nt work with 8.0.1 - it's worked well enough for me and many others, just make sure you have decent coaching staff.

As for your other points, there's alot more to FM08 than previous releases. Some call it too difficult, I call it a great challenge.

A quick read through the "UNOFFICIAL TACTICS BIBLE" sticky at the top of the forum will help a great deal with most areas, especially since Cleon has added some of the more recent FM08 related topics.

I'm also a CM/FM player since the very beginning, I even played the ORIGINAL Kevin Tom's Football Manager, way back when on a Spectrum with the rubber keyboard that was virtually indestructible when you smacked it when your team lost.

I still look to the forums here for pointers with every release.

[gunnerfan]

zagallo, loved it in theory, then tried it with my Farsley Celtic side. Ouch! What kind of pace do your backs have? I find mine are being run ragged.

Then again, that could simply be due to the fact that the entire Farsley squad is putrid.

[Jazzfusion]

Gunnerfan I am having that problem also! Try putting closing down & tackle hard on their wingers on opposition instructions, it has improved for me!

I am putting your ideas in to practice zagallo, with Portsmouth - not doing too bad atm. I'm using 2 pacey strikers upfront instead of having a targetman, it is working very well right now, they run onto so many through balls Last 4 results - 3:0, 5:1, 5:1, 4:3 - all victories for me!

I am struggling with the defensive line, I don't have a particularly fast CB, but I am using Campbell and Samba - both are outstanding in the air, but I find I am giving the opposition too many chances by sitting too deep. Haven't found a happy medium yet.

Any advice is welcome :-)

[inkognieto]

@ zagallo, great post. Very interesting stuff.

Do you tick the targetman-box in team instuctions, or just set them up in the individual settings?

[gunnerfan]

Gunnerfan I am having that problem also! Try putting closing down & tackle hard on their wingers on opposition instructions, it has improved for me!

Actually, for now, I've gone back to a deeper defensive line, less aggresive wing backs, and less closing down on the DMC (he has a pace attribute of 5, and I found he was consistently being pulled out of position to chase the player with the ball, always arriving far too late).

[gunnerfan]

Since doing that, btw, I've won two and drawn one in my next three matches. But, man, does this team reek!

[mwsmith12]

This is a fantastic post Zagallo and I'm looking forward to see how it goes with my Man Utd side.

Would you mind going into a little more detail with the changes you make to your tactics in different situations. e.g. how your counter attack tactics differ from possession.

Cheers

[lucanaso]

I started a new game, taking into account Zagallo's approach and some of the principles of the RoO, which i loved. I've played just three games, without defeats and two blank sheets, with Man City.

After two draws i won 5-0 st home vs Newcastle... I'll post complete results at the end of first season.

[Guest]

@heathxxx

Thank you. I have already read your thread about creative freedom. That is a very interesting finding!!! I am still thinking about how much this could have to do with real life - but on the other hand, is doesn’t matter at all. We are not playing real life, but searching for ways to beat zeros and ones.

As you might have seen, my wingers are also set to low CF, which I found by trial and error. So while trying out a flat 4-4-2 with the 2-6-2 framework, I lowered CF in the middle of half season (but not radically to 0 as you did). The results were as good, but different. While playing my setup, I did win most of the games - but did not get many goals per game (1:0, 2:0, 2:1). When I changed CF, I started banging more goals in (4:0, 6:1), but on the other hand played more draws and lost my first game in the league. (I will post some results today or tomorrow.)

I must admit, that I tested that with only one fixed tactic set-up while going on holiday for some months (to get a fast feedback on the framework). So maybe with using the correct tactic setup, your idea could improve the framework. Wow, great. And thanks again!

@Hawshiels

Thanks. Seems like you went through the same frustration I had, when starting to play FM08... So I’m glad if this thing can help you getting over it. Good luck though!

@yugular

Don’t worry about your English at all. I got all your points. (And I am also not native English.) For me it is absolutely fine to get this feedback in this thread. It’s interesting to see some results.

So here are some thoughts on how it might work for Braga - findings and ideas from further testing of the framework:

- Reduce creative freedom for most players (take a look at heathxxls thread). I did not test the radical way, putting it on 0. But all on little except target man (first notch of normal), AMC and FC (much).

- Put the DMC on man-marking. That way he is not bound to sticking to zones, but can man-mark any attacker who attacks through the center.

- For attack-setting move up the team closing-down just a little (but not into whole pitch!). Also 1 or 2 notches for FBs and Wingers. For counter leave it. For away-setting move it down 1-2 notches.

- Reduce passing style for defenders. In the description I used 11 for DCs, 9 for FBs. You can use „team“ for FBs and DCs 2 notches higher.

- From time to time try to surprise the opposition with unconventional use of the settings. For example counter at home or highly attacking away vs. strong opponent. Sometimes it works. The counter tactic is the strongest and works for many games, I think.

Maybe some of these idea might help. Would you give me/us feedback?

To your 2nd post: I never had problems vs. 4-2-3-1. But your right, this is not a „ready-win-all“. And yes, I think training has a not too small influence on this framework. I realized that, when I started the falt 4-4-2 test. When the team was still in pre-season-training it was much more difficult to score. But when my regular training started, this improved pretty fast.

Btw, my training is based on a thread I found in another FM forum it is called „maymay3(improved)“ and was developed by kittipol for FM07 I guess. It does not work 100% for FM08 but with some changes it does a great job for my team. Maybe you can find it somewhere.

And one more: I just took a look at the Braga team and decided to try my setup with them for a game. I played against Olympic Lyon (ouch!) in the first friendly, both teams almost untrained: 4-4. Possession was 53% for me, I had 13 shots, 6 on target, Lyon 17 shots, 8 on target. When I saw the Braga team I would not have thought that there is a chance for a draw...

@gunnerfan

Oops. Well, you will be surprised, my backs are not that fast. Pace: all my DCs and the main FBL have 13, only the FBR has 15. There are faster one’s...

I guess, the DMC having pace of 5 could be kind of a problem though... Take a look at the ideas 2 answers above - maybe some fo the might help you.

@Jazzfusion

Also, please take a look at my answer to yugular above. The first 4 ideas can improve the framework. Hope your defense gets a littler tighter with it.

@inkognieto

Yes, I have target man ticked. I found that having it ticked and using the TM settings from the system, the target man plays a little deeper than the other striker. Although he ha the same mentality as the quick forward.

@mwsmith

Thanks. Oh, I guess ManU should work very well. Instead of going into detail now, I decided to finally upload my current set of tactics. After a few tweaks and the input and comments from heathxxx, rashidi1 and some other posts and threats I am quite happy with them now. I still don’t believe they work for every team as they are - but with some tweaks they should hopefully. I'll put them up soon.

Would you like to take look into the files though? I case you have questions just come back here...

lucanaso

Thanks for the results. Sounds good. Keep it up.

[Guest]

// Download Now Available // Download Now Available // Download Now Available

As said, I have decided to upload my current tactics set now. For me, they do work consistently and produce results. So I invite everyone interested, to take a look into the details themselves. And to get an impression of how this idea might work.

The upload consists of 3 tactic files (attack, counter, away) plus the training I use in 1 file (it opens up to schedules for all positions plus 2 PreSeason trainings when edited into the game) all zipped into 1 file.

The formation is a 4-4-2 diamond attacking (or 4-1-2-1-2).

The tactics are all set to team mentality attacking, which should or can be tweaked to the opponents or game situations as described in my starting post.

This framework has worked very well for me. But I still don't think it will work unchanged with every team. Some tweaks must be made according to the team and players to make it work individually. But there are plenty of ideas already in this threat and in others. At the moment I am testing a 4-4-2 with a flat midfield with this framework will report soon.

Anyway, for now I would like to say thank you for all the comments, feedback and ideas. Keep it up.

And now I stop the blah-blah and give you the links (hope that works...):

262_diamond from zagallo with filefront

262_diamond from zagallo with rapidshare

Good luck and enjoy.

[i had 2 du this]

Its a shame you uploaded it becaues someone will teSt it for a game, lose and say its crap

Hope they dont but knowing these forums

GReat work, one of the best threads around now probably the best active thread now

[macca1001]

great thread have been using your ideas with my Everton side in a 4-5-1 formation with some success, going to give yours a try now

nice work

[Guest]

I know, I know. Well, I was struggling with myself quite some time. Basically there is no need to do that with the descriptions in this threat. But when I was done with the little tweaks and changes, I didn't want to describe all those little details again...

Now everyone can take a look at the whole picture and see how the framework is set up. Even if they don't want to get into every detail of tactic-building. For some it might help, some might think it makes no sense at all. That's football. That's life.

Hope I won't be nagged too much...

[Guest]

First of all; HI to everybody from Ankara!! I am new in this forum and this is the first thread i read! and i feel lucky!

One of the best jobs done about the tactics for FM! Really good job!

[psychocandy]

i really hope the the slider changes in FML stay well clear of fm 08

cos if they dont,this tactic is doomed

[yugular]

Little brief on what I did: I still coach Braga and apply the changes Zagallo suggested. I also create another manager and take control of Sevilla and use same tactics/approach.

Sevilla - Valencia; counter tactic

score 2-1 (2-1)

shots 10-14

on goal 4-6

poss 54-46

Valencia scores right away with Zigic pushing through between my two DCs. 1-1 was nice move from left side where AML takes the ball up and passes it to the AMC who sprints to byline and passes to far post where TM(Kanoute) is unmarked.

2-1 freekick hit the wall and bounced into the net - lucky goal. Kanoute had few options to make it 3-1 but im satisfied. Valencia didnt have a chance after the first goal.

Vit Setubal - Braga; Home tactic

score 1-2 (1-0)

shots 13-12

on goal 8-8

poss 48-52

Setubal scores a penalty kick in the 7th minute. DMC fouled their striker. 74th minute ref whistled a penalty for is and AML puts scoreline into 1-1.

93rd minute and throw-in in deep AML throws the ball back into DMC who puts a beautiful long ball into area into Strikers feet who turns and shoots into corner 1-2.

This was the first time when we deserved a win and it happened! Vit Setubal didnt have good scoring opportunities and I have a feeling that our defensive line+DMC was operating better as a unit.

Sevilla - B.Jerusalem; Home tactic

score 2-0 (1-0)

shots 14-3

on goal 5-2

poss 53-47

Striker Kone scored both goals. First from freekick and the second after great throughball from AMC Jesus Navas. We clearly deserved this win.

Braga - FC Kobenhavn; Home tactic

score 1-1 (1-0)

shots 14-12

on goal 5-6

poss 54-46

Little unlucky. Again my young striker was in top form and scored a good individual effort before getting injured after 20mins. My other forwards were crappy and missed all chances. Jesper Gronkjaer brought Danish side into 1-1 with good shot in the end.

-----------------------------------

Finally it seems that this approach is working for my teams as well. I guess this proves that little tweaking and considerating of details helps. First thing is that you just have to realiza what is wrong... This experiment was pretty short and sepecially after changes but I instantly noticed the changes and since I dont have too much sparetime at the moment I think I quit now.

I am thinking about starting a manager career while waiting new patch. I might still sometimes give some comments as I am pretty sure I will try this approach in my new career game.

Thanks to Zagallo for this very good post! I really enjoyed doing the experiment! (despite the bad start...)

[Flyingdutchman]

might be a bit redundant to say it again, but great post here! Trying to implement it in 4-2-3-1 (or 4-3-3 if you want to call it that) First thing I noticed is that the game is being played more on the opposition half than before. Flanks seem thight, although there can be serious leakage through the middle: if oppo mc (or amc for that matter) gets the ball and manages to dash forward past my mc's he will have a clear run on goal. By barrowing one mc to dmc position it seems to be stopped. I'm thinking of trying a vertical midfield (dmc-mc-amc) instead of the triangle (mc mc amc) to see if that would improve the middle a bit

[Guest]

Well, that sounds much better than before. I'm glad, it worked out for you after all.

And even more about the proove that the little tweaks can work wonders.

I am realizing the same at the moment. Still testing the 4-4-2 with flat midfield. And although the formation is not extremely different to the diamond, some tweaks need to be made in order to make it work. So let's see where it ends...

Anyway, thanks for the feeedback, yugular!

[Guest]

Thanks Flyingdutchman, good to hear that it works with a 4-2-3-1. I still had not time to set it up with that formation. But even without this framework I never succeded in playing it without barrows on one or both of the MCs. Guess they push up too much then and you have an offense overload... Btw, do you use a wide or a narrow 4-2-3-1 (wingers on AMR/L or AMC position)?

[Jinli]

was wondering in which sitation do i use counter tactic?

attack = home/on weak team

away = tough team

counter = ????

[pancu]

this tactic is amazing...first game first win 5-0 away at Sampdoria.

[jsw123]

Without doubt the most helpfull thread I've ever read.

Thankfully it's not too different from my own 4-1-4-1 but looking forward to going over it again and implementing your FB theory in particular. I've always kept the back 4 and DM on low att/CrFr and CloDown. Will diffinately let my DM close down more than the CB's for a bit and see how it goes.

Again fantastic post mate.

[Guest]

Originally posted by Jinli:

was wondering in which sitation do i use counter tactic?

attack = home/on weak team

away = tough team

counter = ????

Jinli,

at home I use counter against stronger teams and fierce rivals.

Away against equal or worse teams or better teams that have low morale.

Good luck.

[9inarowhoops]

playing as celtic at the moment would just like to no when to use which tactic 1st game away used awawy tac won 6 2 just about to play at home use the att tac and when do you use the counter tac

[Guest]

At home I use counter against stronger teams and fierce rivals.

Away against equal or worse teams or better teams that have low morale.

[Flyingdutchman]

Originally posted by zagallo:

Thanks Flyingdutchman, good to hear that it works with a 4-2-3-1. I still had not time to set it up with that formation. But even without this framework I never succeded in playing it without barrows on one or both of the MCs. Guess they push up too much then and you have an offense overload... Btw, do you use a wide or a narrow 4-2-3-1 (wingers on AMR/L or AMC position)?

I play with classic wingers, I want to come close to the original Ajax system created by van Gaal. Just too chicken to move up a dc to dmc. IRL the upcoming DC was probably the real strenght of the system, creating balance in midfield when your team is pinning the opposition down. I found te tip about the fullbacks very helpful (giving them higher mentality than your wingers) giving me immense offensive power over the flanks. Just played the first two real fixtures of the league. First one was a 0-0 draw away against mediciore oppo(31 shots, 15 on goal, it can happen) and then 7-1 at home against stronger oppo.

About the barrows, I did use them on my mc's somewhere in the past 2 years, but I found it very tiresome for them, leading to 2 automatic subs at 60 min. With one barrow on the player with better stamina this isn't an issue at all and seems to work

[Guest]

Originally posted by Flyingdutchman:

I play with classic wingers, I want to come close to the original Ajax system created by van Gaal. Just too chicken to move up a dc to dmc. IRL the upcoming DC was probably the real strenght of the system, creating balance in midfield when your team is pinning the opposition down. I found te tip about the fullbacks very helpful (giving them higher mentality than your wingers) giving me immense offensive power over the flanks. Just played the first two real fixtures of the league. First one was a 0-0 draw away against mediciore oppo(31 shots, 15 on goal, it can happen) and then 7-1 at home against stronger oppo.

Aah, van Gaal is a real challenge. I tried that in FM07 - and couldn't make it work. Or: When it did work it was not the van Gaal system anymore... What I used was this idea to place the DCs behind each other - one on the sweeper position, one on the central DC position with farrow to DMC and different instructions. But I never had the patience to finally work it out into a tight defense. Good luck though.

About the barrows, I did use them on my mc's somewhere in the past 2 years, but I found it very tiresome for them, leading to 2 automatic subs at 60 min. With one barrow on the player with better stamina this isn't an issue at all and seems to work

True. But as you say, at least one of them has to come back... Guess the AI counts the MCs more as offensive players. So you have 4 in defense and 6 in offense and might get overrun.

[Flyingdutchman]

Originally posted by zagallo:

Aah, van Gaal is a real challenge. I tried that in FM07 - and couldn't make it work. Or: When it did work it was not the van Gaal system anymore... What I used was this idea to place the DCs behind each other - one on the sweeper position, one on the central DC position with farrow to DMC and different instructions. But I never had the patience to finally work it out into a tight defense. Good luck though.

I think it would only be possible with the right player playing as dmc with barrow, but if you play against 2 strikers thats just asking for trouble...so maybe it cannot be done, maybe it can. I'll keep trying, I'm fairly happy with the setup atm, so no real need to force it...

[sitruc03]

Awesome post Zagallo! Usually I just click through these tactic posts, but I was drawn to the picture of your team's shape. I just got an awesome regen striker for my Bradford squad (20 year old... next Luca Toni!), so I've been trying somewhat unsuccessfully to convert from my old 4-2-3-1 to a 4-1-3-2 with the shape in your picture. I'm going to give your tactic a run and I'll be back soon to let you know how it goes.