Nad's VV Sweeper - Impenetrable Defence + Good Attack

[Nad]

Introduction

Hi all,

I've recently been trying to design some unusual tactics to play the kind of football I want my teams to play in FM. One of the things I've been trying to do is to develop a defensive sweeper system tactic. The sweeper has basically died in modern football but I remember lots of teams playing it in the 80s and watching someone like Matthias Sammer for Dortmund in the 90s was an absolute treat.

After some experimenting I've come up with this unusual tactic that is proving rather effective:

These are results so far:

Notice the goals against. So far the only teams to score against me were my own reserves and Doncaster in the Carling Cup, when I was playing my kids.

These results have been achieved without any tactical modifications at all during a match, no opposition instructions, no signings etc. It looks to me that this tactic has a lot of potential - the defense is superb and the attack is effective, though I think it could be improved much further.

Of course it's still early days and that's why I'm posting it here. I'm hoping some people here can try this out with different teams in different divisions and let me have their feedback. How do you feel your team is playing, is the defence as good for you and how is the attack? What do you think can be improved, which instructions can be tweaked etc? Indeed, after trying this tactic, do you think a sweeper system can be really effective in FM?

Hopefully with the feedback I get from different people here, both positive things and negative things, we can together improve this tactic further and have a really effective sweeper tactic to go with some of the other great tactics posted in this forum.

Philosophy

To give you some background as to what this tactic is meant to do, the name "VV" comes from the two Vs that make the formation - the first V consists of sweeper, centre backs and wing backs, and the second V is formed by the MC, AMCs and STs.

Defensively, the sweeper is the pivot of the team. He's set up purely as a defensive sweeper, to play behind the centre backs and mop up any threat the centre backs can't deal with. The centre backs play fairly aggressively - they man mark, press hard and play quite high up the field. I also have them on medium forward runs, so they can help fill the midfield when the team is in possession. The wing backs are standard fare, their job is to support defense and attack, and get quality crosses in from the byline.

Offensively, the CM is the pivot. He's actually a defensive player primarily, but he gets lots of the ball and is always available and unmarked to receive possession and start attacks.

You can see the attacking set up is a little odd - the AMCs are playing centrally and the strikers are playing wide. I'm really enjoying this set up so far. The AMCs help out defensively in the centre of the field, where I need them to track the runs of the opposition CMs; and because they play between the opposition's CBs and CMs, they are difficult for the opposition to mark.

The position of the STs is working well - they're basically inside forwards but I'm finding two big advantages to playing them from a wide starting position:

i) When a cross comes in they are usually picked up by the opposition's fullbacks. This suits me down to the ground - Kuyt and Torres don't win many headers against CBs, but they win loads against most full backs, who tend to be a lot weaker in the air. So I'm getting a lot of headed goals from strikers who aren't particularly good in the air, and still getting the benefit of their other striking abilities.

ii) When the opposition are in possession, the ST whose side the ball is on helps out defensively, and the other ST is left totally unmarked by the opposition's CBs. This is very handy for counter attacks (as you'd imagine, Torres in particular is devastating picking up the ball deep and then running at the defense).

Players

I don't actually have a proper sweeper in the Liverpool squad and only one wingback (Aurelio) so it will be interesting to see how much more effective this will be with teams that do have specialists in these positions.

GK: standard fare

SW: the sweeper is defensive, so you want the same qualities as a CB. Pace would be a useful attribute since he's the last line of defence, but not essential (I'm using Kyrgiakos after all!)

CB: standard, it would be a bonus if they are decent on the ball.

WB: good stamina, dribbling and crossing is desired.

CM: you want someone here who's good defensively (tackling and positioning) and also a good passer as this guy gets loads of the ball.

AM: good movement, finishing and flair desired. The AMCs will get lots of goalscoring chances so you could even play a striker here.

ST: good dribbling and movement desired, these guys provide assists and get their fair share of goalscoring chances.

The following is the link to the tactic and an Excel file showing the team and player settings:

http://www.mediafire.com/?yr3c7ttg2ytytbq

http://www.mediafire.com/?k7vba29d5ubqydg

I hope this brings you success and I look forward to your feedback. Thanks for reading.

Nad

[2vA]

cool this looks completely different to the usual stuff you see around here.

imma try it tomorrow and see how it goes, i think my squad rly fits for that formation.

will give feedback asap, good job on this one!

[Strikeb4ck]

This looks sick, I love these wierdly positioned tactics that end up playing the best football. Will try it out with Spurs for a bit, probably gonna be something like this.

Defoe-------------Crouch

Modric---Kranjcar

Huddlestone

Bale---------------Corluka

Dawson------Woodgate

King

Gomes

Will get back to you soon.

[Peter79]

Hi there, i tryed for my EuroLeague semi-final clash against Juvestus, me beeing Inter, and losing 2-0 on the away match, on the home game i beat them 4-0, so i must just say wonderfull and thanks, now going to the final against Marseille. Thanks

[-SL]

Will give it a run with Blackburn.

[gtavicer9]

I'll be trying it with Valladolid in Spain, near the bottom of the league table so should be interesting how this tactic fares against the likes of Barca and Madrid.

[simsejensen]

Will test this right now with my Napoli side, season 1..

[tob]

Love the look of this tactic. Was trying to create an old sweeper style tactic myself, as I used to love watching the formation played out in real life a while back. Will definitely give it a try mate, nice work!

[Xennaz]

Very, very interesting. Been looking for a SW formation for a while. Might tinker with it and see how it goes, thinking of having one AM and two CMs, with the sweeper as a Libero and the keeper as a Sweeper Keeper. Let you know.

[dan99]

I'll give this a quick try with Liverpool and show you my results

[dan99]

When ready my 2 results so far, consider I'm haly way through the season, so the players aren't used to it, and the weather is quite bad.

First game against Man City, away. who were one point ahead of me in the league. Although I did have a game in hand over them. Cardozo scored after a well worked move early on in the game. I didn't have a lot of possession or chances after that, but they wern't that threatening. Gerrard scored late on with only my second shot on target, to make it 2-0. With the last kick of the game, Cardozo had a CCC, it hit the goalkeeper then the post. So a 2-0 win away from home against Man City, I'm very happy.

Second game away to Wigan. I took the lead in the second minute from and own goal. Then scored a screamer from the edge of the box on rthe 25th minute. After that, they went more defensive and nothing really more happened till they scored in the 83rd minute. After that, we controlled the game.

I'm going to test this further, with a new game, but so far I'm impressed.

[BighouseBrock]

nice, looking forward to giving this whirl, may be a very nice change of pace technique.

[-SL]

Lacks going forward if you don't have a very good frontline. Mutu + Kalinic not scoring much. Very solid defensively and useful for smaller teams against larger sides.

[2vA]

i've moved my two strikers to the center and set up a target man-poacher system.

my strikers lack good crossing which is needed here i think so i changed them and started scoring a bit more, still not satisfied though.

the defence is impressive, i've conceded 3 goals in 5 matches, i'm playing with HSV and imo they lack a reliable defence so i'm happy with that.

[gcs]

woah ! tricky formation, gonna try it tonight.

[simsejensen]

Didnt work at all at my game

[-SL]

I've decided to use it for big home games and away games where a draw will do, definitely requires a great strike force.

[Kawee]

I have to give a shout out to the two wide strikers. I did the same playing managing Brazil in my Arsenal save (double jobs yes, I needed to pay the bills)

It really does work well, like the OP said. It almost render the opposition's CB useless. And the only people really attacking the CB are the attacking midfielders who make quick deep runs from midfield into the box, which are very hard to track down.

[sostoss]

I took advantage of the very good defensive stability and made some changes with outstanding results.

1.Put the wing backs in support-mode(i always do that)

2.Move the MC to dm as deep l playmaker(defence duties)

3.moved the 2 amc's to striker positions the one as target man and the other as poacher (both attack duties)

Nothing else changed

Now the tactic is solid defensively with great scoring power

[Jupmachine]

Good tactic, works well with Man Utd. I am training all my att-mids to shoot long at the moment, as they get a lot of space to rain them in.

[dan99]

I took advantage of the very good defensive stability and made some changes with outstanding results.

1.Put the wing backs in support-mode(i always do that)

2.Move the MC to dm as deep l playmaker(defence duties)

3.moved the 2 amc's to striker positions the one as target man and the other as poacher (both attack duties)

Nothing else changed

Now the tactic is solid defensively with great scoring power

Maybe you could do this for the easier games, then use the original tactic for harder games? Also, putting the full backs on support actually changes nothing, at all

I'd also make sure the sweeper has very good jumping. I used a player with 12 jumping and he went for 6 headers, but only won 2, and one of them they scored from. So far with Tottenham, played 2, won 2. I'll try and get as far as I can tonight and give some more feedback.

[sostoss]

dan99 i havn't done much testing ... but with a weaker side i managed to get very good results with these settings even with very stronger teams..

and thats thaks to the defensive stability and the massive pressure that 4 players put very hight at the grass

[Nad]

First of all, thank you to everybody who has provided feedback so far. The comments so far are valuable in helping to improve this tactics further and I will look to address some of the points raised for version 2 of this tactic.

So far, the overall message that I'm getting is that the defence is indeed very solid in this tactic, but that the attack could be improved. That's pretty much what I expected. In my own Liverpool game that I first tried this on, I was loving the defence and the fact that the opposition hardly ever got a decent chance to score, but I noticed that I wasn't creating as many goalscoring chances as I have on other tactics I've designed, and while the strikers were heavily involved, they weren't getting in goalscoring positions often enough. So for version 2, I will try to improve on this.

To test the tactic a bit further, I ran a holiday game yesterday. I picked Wolves (prediction 18th), loaded up the tactic, and immediately went on holiday with instructions to use current match tactics and not sell any players. I came back from holiday after the season finished - Wolves came 11th. That's not bad at all considering their prediction and that there was no human input into the season at all - no training, teamtalks, transfers, substitutions etc. That has convinced me that the building blocks are there. Of course, Wolves came 11th on defence - they scored only 44 goals and conceded 58, but this was far better than the teams around them and they had a number of 1-0 wins.

Before expanding on what I will look to change, I first want to discuss some of the specific feedback points raised.

[BighouseBrock]

solid tactic, working well with reserve and youth squad as well

ac milan youth 2 wins so far both 3-0

reserves same as youth.

1st team i think it was w 3-0, w3-1 and a the only drawback (if you can call it that) 1-1 vs real madrid away CL match. loving the tactic as is.

[Nad]

Very, very interesting. Been looking for a SW formation for a while. Might tinker with it and see how it goes, thinking of having one AM and two CMs, with the sweeper as a Libero and the keeper as a Sweeper Keeper. Let you know.

Let me know how it goes for you. I've designed this with a defensive sweeper rather than an attacking sweeper, as I'm concentrating on the defence first. I've found so far that it's actually quite difficult to get players from the CB position involved in attacks - with Liverpool I've tried tinkering around with a formation to get Agger involved in the attack, so he can stride forward from deep and let fly some long shots, but I've never quite managed to get it to work effectively. I think the hardwired positioning in the match engine doesn't really allow CBs to get involved in attacks, and I've never even sign AI CBs involved in attacks, so I think it might not even be possible - let me know if you get it to work though. If you do go for a libero SW, you'll need to make the CBs a bit more defensive so that they provide the defensive cover rather than the SW.

Lacks going forward if you don't have a very good frontline. Mutu + Kalinic not scoring much. Very solid defensively and useful for smaller teams against larger sides.

What was the problem with Mutu and Kalinic? Were they missing chances or were they not getting into goalscoring positions? Were they trying to run with the ball too much and getting caught? A bit more detail here would be useful to help me understand what the problem was.

i've moved my two strikers to the center and set up a target man-poacher system.

my strikers lack good crossing which is needed here i think so i changed them and started scoring a bit more, still not satisfied though.

the defence is impressive, i've conceded 3 goals in 5 matches, i'm playing with HSV and imo they lack a reliable defence so i'm happy with that.

The strikers are set up mainly to cut infield rather than to cross - the main ability they need is to dribble rather than cross, the crossing is secondary. If you move the strikers central, you need to change the AMCs or otherwise you have 4 players in a central attacking position all getting in each other's way. You could move the AMCs out wide or even go with a front 4 as sostoss (below) has done, but that may be overkill and ruin the midfield possession.

Didnt work at all at my game

Do you have any feedback on what was wrong? Was it the defence / midfield / attack? What actually happened with Napoli?

I have to give a shout out to the two wide strikers. I did the same playing managing Brazil in my Arsenal save (double jobs yes, I needed to pay the bills)

It really does work well, like the OP said. It almost render the opposition's CB useless. And the only people really attacking the CB are the attacking midfielders who make quick deep runs from midfield into the box, which are very hard to track down.

Absolutely! That's exactly what I was trying to achieve, the STs get to play against FBs (who are usually not as good defensively as CBs) and the AMCs moving all over the place pull the opposition's CMs and CBs all over the place. I accept as some people have said that it might require good strikers to make it work but I think it's too early to say without more testing. For version 2, I'm intending to keep the wide STs as I think it's a very interesting and worthwhile experiment (and I haven't seen many other tactics with this kind of setup, so we might be able to break some new ground and introduce a new tool to the human player's tactical armoury).

I took advantage of the very good defensive stability and made some changes with outstanding results.

1.Put the wing backs in support-mode(i always do that)

2.Move the MC to dm as deep l playmaker(defence duties)

3.moved the 2 amc's to striker positions the one as target man and the other as poacher (both attack duties)

Nothing else changed

Now the tactic is solid defensively with great scoring power

1. As dan99 says, changing the FBs to support does nothing - the sliders have been ticked in the tactic so you need to change the actual sliders if you want to change the FBs settings.

2. I'm not sure about using a playmaker from the DMC position. All that does is focus passes to the DMC, who is in a defensive position, so I'm not sure how that would help the attack. The setup I've designed is to get the ball to the front 4 players and let them do the creating. What effect are you experiencing from having a DMC as playmaker?

3. Could you show me your results from going to a front 4? Wow, this is really daring, I'd be concerned it would empty the midfield and make it difficult to keep possession (especially if you have a DMC as well, that means you have nobody at all in any midfield or attacking midfield position!) But if you're getting great results, I'd like to see it!

Good tactic, works well with Man Utd. I am training all my att-mids to shoot long at the moment, as they get a lot of space to rain them in.

You don't want the AMs to shoot long too much, as you might be wasting good attacking positions. I think training their long shots attribute would be good - but I wouldn't ask them to learn long shots as a PPM, because then they might shoot long too much. Personally I think the current setup (long shots sometimes) is enough - this means that if they see a good long shots opportunity when they have space and they have a line of sight to goal, they'll go for it. Otherwise they'll keep possession.

I'd also make sure the sweeper has very good jumping. I used a player with 12 jumping and he went for 6 headers, but only won 2, and one of them they scored from. So far with Tottenham, played 2, won 2. I'll try and get as far as I can tonight and give some more feedback.

Agreed, as I said in the OP, the SW should have similar attributes to a good CB, and jumping is very important.

[sostoss]

Nad as i said i havn't done a lot of testing,but for the possession thing just play 2-3 matches whith my set up and u will see that the oponent strugles with the possession and not your team,it may be not realistic but this the way tha match engine responds.

About the DLP,i just thought i needed a player with your settings but at the position of a DM to help my defence and just set him as dlp and worked fine....maybe there's no real deference if u set him as dm.

As far as for the FB set up u are right.

If it's not a big thing for u try my set up for several matches and tell me your impressions,if it doesn't work for u ok,there's a possibility that it just suits my team.

Anyway thanks for your response,i'll sent results later

[Nad]

Thanks sostoss, I will do. You've already given me one idea for version 2 of this tactic which I'll work on. I'll try the DMC and the front 4 for a few matches and see how it goes.

[aderow]

Didnt work at all at my game

Maybe your players just need to get used to the tactic. Give it at least 4 or 5 games so that can get fully acclimated.

[Nad]

sostoss, I tried some of your suggested changes in a quick test game with Aston Villa but it's not working too well for me. This was the formation:

I changed the wide strikers to wingers, the central strikers as deep lying forward and poacher, and the DM as defensive midfielder.

I watched a few games to get a flavour of the tactic, and there were some issues I spotted from the lack of midfield.

This was an example in defence. Gardner is running down the wing and Bolton have 4 players bursting into the box. The yellow dots are where the 2 AMCs would be in the original formation - the red ringed player is the deep lying forward, so you can get an idea where the AMs would be. I have 3 players (in pink rings) totally out of the game. The player with the orange arrow is my DM - if the AMs were in position he could cover the near post and allow the rest of the defenders to shuffle across to the back post where Bolton have men over. As it is, Bolton get a cross in to the back post from which Friedel makes a brilliant save from Kevin Davies. They score from the resulting corner.

This is an example for the attack:

The ringed player, Ashley Young, has just passed to Petrov. You can see that Petrov has basically no passing options except to return the pass to Young, which he does and then the move breaks down when Young is closed down. With the original formation, the two yellow dots are where the AMCs should be, giving Petrov more forward passing options and helping to build the attack.

These are the stats from the match (large screenshot):

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6551/avbstats.jpg

We were 2-0 down at half time but managed to pull it back after I gave them a rollicking, equalizing in injury time. You can see we were a little unlucky - we dominated possession and chances (Bolton's goals were from a corner and a long range shot).

I managed the next match in full (6-0 win against a random UEFA Cup team) and since it looked encouraging, I then went on holiday, telling the assistant to use current tactics...

[Nad]

Oh dear.

League Position (large screenshot):

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/7269/atablea.jpg

There were some tough games there (Man Utd, Chelsea and Liverpool) but also some gimmes (Burnley, Hull, Wolves).

Stats from the game against Man Utd (large screenshot):

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/4913/avmustats.jpg

Again, just shaded possession and more shots, but no clear cut chances at all.

To be fair, this is just one team and one test, I haven't replicated your changes exactly, and it was played in holiday mode so the assistant probably did some daft things the human manager wouldn't, but I think it shows there are several issues with emptying the midfield and attempting to play 6-0-4! The defensive solidity has disappeared as well and the attack is not that effective.

I think there are a couple of things I can pick up from this but the original tactic is a lot more solid and effective.

[Nad]

In order to start looking at version 2, I hope I can get some more feedback from people trying the tactic and then tomorrow I'll make the changes and start testing version 2. I've got an idea of what I will change to make the attack more effective, but I'll wait to see if there are any more ideas and suggestions.

[dan99]

Once I get sick of MSN, I'll play some more games and post my results.

[dan99]

Results with Tottenham

[sostoss]

Nad i supose you are right because after some more testing tonight i found it very dificult to stabilize the performances of my team althought i had some very good results against really strong teams ,but did u see that u can dominate possession with 4 guys upfrond ? ;-))

Anyway if i find out something new i'll keep u informed

[Rich...]

Using the original tactic with Atletico Madrid at the moment (first season). Pretty good start so far i'll keep you updated and let you know if any tweaks seem to improve it.

Thanks.

[tob]

Love the idea, but didn't work too well with my game