Is the Tranfer system abit of Joke in FM 2010?

[Badass_]

But surely, it's the AI who make human managers bid those unrealistic prices and not the other way around? I mean, it's not like people are making starting bids of 60m for players valued 5-10m. I get what you are saying about managers pulling out out of the deal long before the selling club negotiate to huge prices but paying way over the odds does happen IRL. The only difference is that on FM, over the odds very often means insane amounts of money.

I've been saying this for quite some time now.

[dafuge]

But surely, it's the AI who make human managers bid those unrealistic prices and not the other way around? I mean, it's not like people are making starting bids of 60m for players valued 5-10m. I get what you are saying about managers pulling out out of the deal long before the selling club negotiate to huge prices but paying way over the odds does happen IRL. The only difference is that on FM, over the odds very often means insane amounts of money.

I think the problems arise when people won't accept that a player is not for sale, causing them to start bidding way beyond what is 'value for money'. Deals break down in real life due to a failure to agree a price on a player, the problems seem to arise when people fail to accept this and push things beyond a sensible limit.

I'm not trying to justify the current transfer system, I'm just trying to point out that it can be hypocritical to try and brand it unrealistic.

[charlo116]

I think the problems arise when people won't accept that a player is not for sale, causing them to start bidding way beyond what is 'value for money'. Deals break down in real life due to a failure to agree a price on a player, the problems seem to arise when people fail to accept this and push things beyond a sensible limit.

I'm not trying to justify the current transfer system, I'm just trying to point out that it can be hypocritical to try and brand it unrealistic.

Completely agree with this. It seems to be the point that most people have problems with and whilst it might mean the transfer system perhaps needs some work to accomodate this its not a flawed system.

[Badass_]

@ Dafuge

I guess now, I'm a tranfer market master as well.

He had a natural value of 27.5 mil so maybe I could have gotten even more.

[dafuge]

As long as you didn't pay £83m for him in the first place

Just out of interest, what does your World - Transfers - Leading Transfers page look like?

[Badass_]

Probably one of the best DC's n the game. (3 and a half stars), still valued at less then 10 mil. I bid his value and the offer got rejected. Then I very very slowly went my way up until 60mil. All the offers were rejected but the 60mil one. They came up with a 128mil counter-offer as you can see in the ss. Then I kept negotiating and slightly increasing the value of my bid. They accepted an offer of 85mil.

85mil for a 9mil player.

Now tell me there isn't something wrong.

And did I or did I not blew that theory of yours that clubs only come up with crazy prices if your initial bid is crazy as well, out of the water?

Now, either the player's values disappear from the game altogether or, in my humble opinion, something has to change.

[dafuge]

I'd still say that a £60m bid for a defender is unrealistic, considering that the world record fee for a defender is around £30m.

[Badass_]

I'd still say that a £60m bid for a defender is unrealistic, considering that the world record fee for a defender is around £30m.

of course it is. But even more unrealistic then that is a club rejecting an offer of £60m bid for a defender. Sorry Dafuge but if there's someone to blame here, it's the game, not the user.

I rest my case.

[dafuge]

of course it is. But even more unrealistic then that is a club rejecting an offer of £60m bid for a defender. Sorry Dafuge but if there's someone to blame here, it's the game, not the user.

I rest my case.

I guess we are debating different points then. I'm not trying to say that it is unrealistic for a £60m bid for a defender to be rejected, I'm trying to say that it is unrealistic that a £60m bid would be made for a defender in the first place.

You can't complain about the lack of realism in a bid being rejected when the bid is completely unrealistic, it is completely hypocritical.

[Badass_]

You can't complain about the lack of realism in a bid being rejected when the bid is completely unrealistic, it is completely hypocritical.

This statement right here, doesn't make any sense to me.

In order to buy the player, I was "forced" to make such a high bid. Sure , I could give up but that's not the point. The point that in real life no manager would bid 85mil BECAUSE.... the other club would have accepted a much lower bid already!!!

The game forced and created the unrealistic situation. Basically, the game is cause and effect is what I am saying. Pretty simple.

[dafuge]

This statement right here, doesn't make any sense to me.

In order to buy the player, I was "forced" to make such a high bid. The game forced and created the unrealistic situation. Basically, for me, the game is cause and effect. Pretty simple.

I'll try and explain it.

Realistically, a real life manager would bid up until the point where they no longer believed that the transfer would give value for money. After this, they would pull out and refuse to bid any further. There is nothing forcing you to carry on bidding, this is the point where you should pull out.

You are choosing to carry on bidding, and entering the stage of the negotiations which I believe is unrealistic. Does this mean you think bidding £60m on a defender is realistic? If so, then I can understand why we are disagreeing.

[dafuge]

Looks like I missed this edit with my reply.

Sure , I could give up but that's not the point.

I'm arguing that this is the point. A real life manager would give up.

[Badass_]

You are choosing to carry on bidding, and entering the stage of the negotiations which I believe is unrealistic. Does this mean you think bidding £60m on a defender is realistic? If so, then I can understand why we are disagreeing.

No no no, I don't think 60m is realistic BUT, and this is what I think you're missing, in real life, a manager would not enter that unrealistic stage of negotiations because he woudn't have to, the other club would already have accepted a lower bid of, let's say, 30 or 40mil. And in this game those offers are rejected when they should be accepted which makes the human player have to pay those crazy amounts we've been discussing. I don't think the human player has any fault if he acts like I did with Jelavic and I don't understand how you do not agree with this.:confused:

[dafuge]

No no no, I don't think 60m is realistic BUT, and this is what I think you're missing, in real life, a manager would not enter that unrealistic stage of negotiations because he woudn't have to, the other club would already have accepted a lower bid, let's say 30 or 40mil.

What would they do if they didn't accept that bid, but rejected it instead?

What did Man City do when Chelsea rejected their bid of £30m for John Terry?

[dafuge]

I don't think the human player has any fault if he acts like I did with Jelavic and I don't understand how you do not agree with this.:confused:

It depends if you are looking at it as a game or as something that should give a realistic representation of real life football. In real iife football there has never been a bid of £60m for a defender.

[Badass_]

It depends if you are looking at it as a game or as something that should give a realistic representation of real life football. In real iife football there has never been a bid of £60m for a defender.

By that token I could also say, in real life has ever a bid of 40 mil for a defender been rejected?

and btw, I love the game. This is just an healthy discussion regarding one aspect of fm.

[nev147]

Been looking through this thread and some interesting discussions going on. However from an SI perspective, essentially teams asking for what can be classed as 'silly money' is basically the AI telling the user or other AI club they don't want to sell. If they really really don't want to sell then they'll put up some ridiculous asking price which only a fool would state as being financially viable. Should it really be easy for both other AI clubs and users to build their teams that easily? Should the AI not have the opportunity to say 'no' even if he could take the money to do something else with it? I saw someone earlier mention Pique for around £40m - do Barcelona really need money? Or would they rather keep one of the best CB's in the world who's settled at their club and has no desire to move?

Occasionally when a team really really doesn't want to sell, a team with more money than sense will pay a crazy amount to sign him - ie Cristiano Ronaldo. It does occasionally happen, if a team has that much money then if they're THAT desperate they'll spend it. But then, if a team has valued a player at a extortionate amount and you still pay it, then surely you can see why they valued him that high right? I mean, you did pay the money yourself to sign him, so to you his is worth that.

Just thought I would pick that up! Yes they are struggling finanically!

[Rista]

How did you guys buy Gallas for 7 and even 3.5 million?

I was a bit curious about this so I tried to buy him with Real Madrid. August 2009. with standard 10.3 database.

All my bids up to 60m were rejected and then this:

In the end they would settle for "only" 98 million. My unrealistic bid aside, why does this happen? How come some of you bought him for 7m and yet Arsenal are asking insane amounts of money in some people's games? Really wondering what is making such huge differences in asking prices :confused:

[dafuge]

By that token I could also say, in real life has ever a bid of 40 mil for a defender been rejected?

No, because as far as I'm aware there has never been a bid of £40m made on a defender. A £40m bid on a defender would be described as 'unrealistic'.

(I'm prepared to be corrected on this one as I'm not entirely sure if a £40m has ever been made on a defender)

[dafuge]

and btw, I love the game. This is just an healthy discussion regarding one aspect of fm.

I agree. It is refreshing to be able to have a difference of opinions on something without it resorting to insults

[Badass_]

No, because as far as I'm aware there has never been a bid of £40m made on a defender. A £40m bid on a defender would be described as 'unrealistic'.

(I'm prepared to be corrected on this one as I'm not entirely sure if a £40m has ever been made on a defender)

Lol, again that's not the point. Let's say that tomorrow club x offers club y 40 mil for a defender. Wouldn't it be immediately accepted ? Unless we're talking about barcelona/real madrid.

[dafuge]

Lol, again that's not the point. Let's say that tomorrow club x offers club y 40 mil for a defender. Wouldn't it be immediately accepted ? Unless we're talking about barcelona/real madrid.

But that is exactly my point, I'm arguing over the realism aspect of it. Until £40m bids are made for defenders, how are we supposed to know how they will be dealt with?

[nev147]

What do people make of the following:

Bareing in mind that Ronaldo is the world's most expensive player at £80m, who at the time was playing for one of the biggest and best clubs in the world.

A 3rd party tool has told me that 104 players have a sale vale of £80m or more! How can this reflect real life?

I mean Ricardo Carvalho has a sale value of £141m - yet in real life and yes it is a season later he goes to Real Madrid for a single figure sum?

Does common sense not say it needs tweaking????

[Badass_]

What do people make of the following:

Bareing in mind that Ronaldo is the world's most expensive player at £80m, who at the time was playing for one of the biggest and best clubs in the world.

A 3rd party tool has told me that 104 players have a sale vale of £80m or more! How can this reflect real life?

I mean Ricardo Carvalho has a sale value of £141m - yet in real life and yes it is a season later he goes to Real Madrid for a single figure sum?

Does common sense not say it needs tweaking????

Even if they're "not for sale" the salue value should be lower then that, unless (and I'm getting tired of saying this) we're talking about a stupidly rich club like barça or madrid.

[dafuge]

What do people make of the following:

Bareing in mind that Ronaldo is the world's most expensive player at £80m, who at the time was playing for one of the biggest and best clubs in the world.

A 3rd party tool has told me that 104 players have a sale vale of £80m or more! How can this reflect real life?

I mean Ricardo Carvalho has a sale value of £141m - yet in real life and yes it is a season later he goes to Real Madrid for a single figure sum?

Does common sense not say it needs tweaking????

My simple answer is that these are the players that in real life would not move because no one would make a bid big enough to tempt them away from their clubs. Obviously looking back at them now some of them don't make sense as the status of the players may have changed since that data was created.

[Badass_]

My simple answer is that these are the players that in real life would not move because no one would make a bid big enough to tempt them away from their clubs. Obviously looking back at them now some of them don't make sense as the status of the players may have changed since that data was created.

My point is a "bid big enough to temp them away" as you put it should not be 80mil and above that...

It's not in real life (it's much less) and it shouldn't be in the game.

[Martyr1777]

What do people make of the following:

Bareing in mind that Ronaldo is the world's most expensive player at £80m, who at the time was playing for one of the biggest and best clubs in the world.

A 3rd party tool has told me that 104 players have a sale vale of £80m or more! How can this reflect real life?

I mean Ricardo Carvalho has a sale value of £141m - yet in real life and yes it is a season later he goes to Real Madrid for a single figure sum?

Does common sense not say it needs tweaking????

Why is it so hard to understand that the way things are coded clubs seem to ask high prices for transfers instead of just saying "no, go away". I've never seen a club give a hands off and I've not heard it mentioned in this thread (not read the whole things though).

So the high amounts are a 'hands off', it does not mean the clubs actually expect to make that money, they just want to keep the player. It's just apparently not coded for the AI to say no however.

It's so simple, but for some reason people just don't want to accept it.

[dafuge]

My point is a "bid big enough to temp them away" as you put it should not be 80mil and above that...

It's not in real life (it's much less) and it shouldn't be in the game.

By a "bid big enough to tempt them away", I literally meant that. These are the sort of players that a real life manager would give up on as the asking prices would not represent value for money.

[Rista]

Why is it so hard to understand that the way things are coded clubs seem to ask high prices for transfers instead of just saying "no, go away". I've never seen a club give a hands off and I've not heard it mentioned in this thread (not read the whole things though).

So the high amounts are a 'hands off', it does not mean the clubs actually expect to make that money, they just want to keep the player. It's just apparently not coded for the AI to say no however.

It's so simple, but for some reason people just don't want to accept it.

But how many clubs in the world can afford to say "no, go away" when offered 30 million pounds, let alone more?

[dafuge]

Why is it so hard to understand that the way things are coded clubs seem to ask high prices for transfers instead of just saying "no, go away". I've never seen a club give a hands off and I've not heard it mentioned in this thread (not read the whole things though).

So the high amounts are a 'hands off', it does not mean the clubs actually expect to make that money, they just want to keep the player. It's just apparently not coded for the AI to say no however.

It's so simple, but for some reason people just don't want to accept it.

But on the positive side, there are people who will actually negotiate with these values, so there is a (gaming) reason for having them instead of a 'not for sale' option.

[Badass_]

But how many clubs in the world can afford to say "no, go away" when offered 30 million pounds, let alone more?

bingo:thup:

[dafuge]

But how many clubs in the world can afford to say "no, go away" when offered 30 million pounds, let alone more?

It's a moot point if no one will ever offer £30m.

[nev147]

Yes I do understand that Martyr. But some of the sale values are just silly. Villa at £78m - what has this summer showed that value to be - unrealistic and silly. The same for Fabregas - sale value £80m but this summer has shown that his value is arund £40m but barca would only pay £30m. The list goes on. Yes some players are unavailable - such as messi, xavi, Casillias but at the end of the day other players have a value that they can be bought for - and for me SI have inflated these prices too much. DO SI consider the current economic climate for the start game database?

[dafuge]

Yes I do understand that Martyr. But some of the sale values are just silly. Villa at £78m - what has this summer showed that value to be - unrealistic and silly. The same for Fabregas - sale value £80m but this summer has shown that his value is arund £40m but barca would only pay £30m. The list goes on. Yes some players are unavailable - such as messi, xavi, Casillias but at the end of the day other players have a value that they can be bought for - and for me SI have inflated these prices too much. DO SI consider the current economic climate for the start game database?

What makes you think that Fabregas could be bought for £40m? Did Arsenal say he was available for £40m? (I may have missed this)

[SFraser]

I have try sign Nicola`s Otamendi( SEVILLA F.C) as his wages is £70,000 a week and Tranfer values is £15.75m

So I put offer in for £25m

Why on Earth did you do that? "Hello, I'm HotshotUK and I'm swimming in cash, please take me for as much as you can"

If I wanted a player worth £15.75 million I would start the bidding at £10m not £25 million.

Quite an amusing thread this actually, start off the transfer process by offering almost double his actual value and then wonder why the other team ends up asking for £90 million.

[nev147]

I love the did I miss something! No but it was clear that he would have gone for far less IRL than the FM price that you can get him for. Including being pals with wenger and Fabregas - via the favourite personel list. That will be proved next summer!

[nev147]

Why on Earth did you do that? "Hello, I'm HotshotUK and I'm swimming in cash, please take me for as much as you can"

If I wanted a player worth £15.75 million I would start the bidding at £10m not £25 million.

Quite an amusing thread this actually, start off the transfer process by offering almost double his actual value and then wonder why the other team ends up asking for £90 million.

Yes but then the manager is signalling his intent - with an eye catching openning bid etc! Whats the point of offering a low amount when you know they will just reject it - that is quite ammusing!

[dafuge]

I love the did I miss something! No but it was clear that he would have gone for far less IRL than the FM price that you can get him for. Including being pals with wenger and Fabregas - via the favourite personel list. That will be proved next summer!

I support Portsmouth, the last thing I want to hear about is how much money other clubs are splashing out

All I'm interested in is the amount Barca would have bid, for the argument of realism.

[SFraser]

Yes but then the manager is signalling his intent - with an eye catching openning bid etc! Whats the point of offering a low amount when you know they will just reject it - that is quite ammusing!

Because the AI haggles with you and because it's not always up to the manager if the player stays or is sold. So if you start low and the AI starts haggling with you, you can get the player for less than you would have to pay if you started offering 3-4 times his actual value to begin with.

And if you want one of these "untouchable" players then start unsettling him or making friends with his manager. Don't just jump in with a 2x value offer if you don't want to be taken for a ride.

[nev147]

Yeah sorry dafuge! I was only messing! I just feel that too many players have their sale value being so high and there are no reasons for this. The players like Rooney, Messi, Casillias of this world then fine but not other players in the calss or two below - I mean what did kaka go for in real life 70m euro? In fm09 it would be hard to get anywhere near that!

[nev147]

Yes the manager and player interaction is very important Fraser - and I do use it - a superb addition by SI! I did mention that above when talking to dafuge!

[dafuge]

Yeah sorry dafuge! I was only messing! I just feel that too many players have their sale value being so high and there are no reasons for this. The players like Rooney, Messi, Casillias of this world then fine but not other players in the calss or two below - I mean what did kaka go for in real life 70m euro? In fm09 it would be hard to get anywhere near that!

I'm agreeing that some of the asking prices are unrealistic, but my point is that it will take an unrealistic bid to discover this. Which means that the person complaining is a hypocrite.

[Martyr1777]

Yes I do understand that Martyr. But some of the sale values are just silly. Villa at £78m - what has this summer showed that value to be - unrealistic and silly. The same for Fabregas - sale value £80m but this summer has shown that his value is arund £40m but barca would only pay £30m. The list goes on. Yes some players are unavailable - such as messi, xavi, Casillias but at the end of the day other players have a value that they can be bought for - and for me SI have inflated these prices too much. DO SI consider the current economic climate for the start game database?

No you obviously don't understand. Because it's not silly or unrealistic to put up a huge number if the intention is for it to not be payed.

Tell me this, in the editor do you see anything that lists a player as not for sale at all? My guess is no, and this is the mechanic they have for it.

This way people playing the game can't complain that it's impossible to buy certain players because the team denies all offers. Well they won't deny all offers with this system, but that doesn't mean they want to give away their top players for a 'fair' price.

Hell I had the AI make 4 offers on one of my players, the last was more then fair but I still didn't take it because he's a key young defender for me. I'm sure you've not accepted every offer for a player, even a really good one. So why does the AI always have to accommodate with 'fair' number.

It's the equivalent of 'hands off', period.

It was asked earlier in the thread, which would you rather have. A huge price on a player but they are still available, or having -NO- option at all to get your hands on them? Seriously.... every one of you guys that think this is 'broken' answer that question.

[Badass_]

I'm sure you've not accepted every offer for a player, even a really good one. So why does the AI always have to accommodate with 'fair' number.

And there you are again with the "fair" thing. Fair, for a top player would be 50/60 million. Not 80 or 100 or more then that.

But I do agree with dafuge and others that have been saying that starting with low bids and increasing it slowly will get you good results. I've been trying that and it kinda works just not every time as proved with he jelavic example.

It was asked earlier in the thread, which would you rather have. A huge price on a player but they are still available, or having -NO- option at all to get your hands on them? Seriously.... every one of you guys that think this is 'broken' answer that question.

I would rather have a huge price on a player but they are still available. The question is how huge the price is and right now it's between 80 and 100 mil. And it should be less then that. That's all.

[Cougar2010]

Any reason you seem to be ignoring my posts Badass?

[Badass_]

Any reason you seem to be ignoring my posts Badass?

What ?

what post did I ignore?

[charlo116]

I would rather have a huge price on a player but they are still available. The question is how huge the price is and right now it's between 80 and 100 mil. And it should be less then that. That's all.

But look at how much prices have jumped up in the last two years? how do you know SI aren't forecasting it to spike further so that the 'huge' price on a player becomes the normal at 80-100m?

[Cougar2010]

What ?

what post did I ignore?

#288 was a direct response to you while #315 & #344 were both relevant to your issue.

[nev147]

At Martyn - Yes I understand that when clubs ask for an obscene amount it is their way of saying hands off - but I maintain that there not over 100 players in the world who are not available and the clubs will come back with a silly amount of £80m or more. What I am saying is the amount should be alot less for most of them - but not the very elite players - as I have already said. The system is not broken - just needs tweaking IMO. Like Badaas said we dont want to be able to buy players on the cheap - not at all - and some players we will just not be able to buy etc which is correct. But its when clubs ask for £80m-£140m when realistically it is between maybe £40-£60! But it as if £40-£60m on fm is cheap - but know they would be up there with the highest transfers of all time. For me there are only a select few players who can command such a fee imo.

[Badass_]

At Martyn - Yes I understand that when clubs ask for an obscene amount it is their way of saying hands off - but I maintain that there not over 100 players in the world who are not available and the clubs will come back with a silly amount of £80m or more. What I am saying is the amount should be alot less for most of them - but not the very elite players - as I have already said. The system is not broken - just needs tweaking IMO. Like Badaas said we dont want to be able to buy players on the cheap - not at all - and some players we will just not be able to buy etc which is correct. But its when clubs ask for £80m-£140m when realistically it is between maybe £40-£60! But it as if £40-£60m on fm is cheap - but know they would be up there with the highest transfers of all time. For me there are only a select few players who can command such a fee imo.

Pretty straightforward really.