Is the Tranfer system abit of Joke in FM 2010?

[Badass_]

#288 was a direct response to you while #315 & #344 were both relevant to your issue.

I just checked 344 and you quoted some guy named brent, not me.

315 you quoted rista not me

so...

[Cougar2010]

At Martyn - Yes I understand that when clubs ask for an obscene amount it is their way of saying hands off - but I maintain that there not over 100 players in the world who are not available and the clubs will come back with a silly amount of £80m or more.

I disagree there are around 10 players who would be unavailable at Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Inter Milan, AC Milan, Lyon.

Add in another 3-5 players at teams on the same level as Liverpool, Tottenham, Valencia, Roma etc + say one or two key players at other clubs in top divisions and you have over 100.

[Badass_]

I disagree there are around 10 players who would be unavailable at Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Inter Milan, AC Milan, Lyon.

Add in another 3-5 players at teams on the same level as Liverpool, Tottenham, Valencia, Roma etc + say one or two key players at other clubs in top divisions and you have over 100.

What ?? lool

you think there are 10 players who would be unavailable at man utd, barcelona , chelsea, lyon, munich and milan? you're out of your mind.

Barcelona and Rea madrid maybe...but the other clubs you mentioned...no way.

[dafuge]

I disagree there are around 10 players who would be unavailable at Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Inter Milan, AC Milan, Lyon.

Add in another 3-5 players at teams on the same level as Liverpool, Tottenham, Valencia, Roma etc + say one or two key players at other clubs in top divisions and you have over 100.

I agree, but only in the sense that they are unavailable because no one would ever make a bid big enough to be accepted. If clubs starting throwing around crazy £40m bids on a regular basis then we might see a few more of those players moving clubs.

[Rista]

Just wait until City grab one of the Champions League spots, something tells me we'll be seeing a lot of those "unrealistic" 30-40 million bids that "no one would ever make anyway"

[james170288]

What annoys me is that AI clubs never offer these huge amounts. If transfer markets are to be inflated in the game then surely it should work both ways.

[dafuge]

Just wait until City grab one of the Champions League spots, something tells me we'll be seeing a lot of those "unrealistic" 30-40 million bids that "no one would ever make anyway"

It is a worrying thought. It will be interesting to see if they do still look for some kind of value for money in their deals, or whether they will just bid whatever it takes to get the players they want.

[dafuge]

What annoys me is that AI clubs never offer these huge amounts. If transfer markets are to be inflated in the game then surely it should work both ways.

They do, but only when they think it is worth it. What they won't do is bid 'over the top' like we do.

[charlo116]

Just wait until City grab one of the Champions League spots, something tells me we'll be seeing a lot of those "unrealistic" 30-40 million bids that "no one would ever make anyway"

Fortunately for the good of football UEFA is passing new laws to limit club spending to what the clubs earn, with limited amounts to what owners can pump into their clubs.

[dafuge]

Fortunately for the good of football UEFA is passing new laws to limit club spending to what the clubs earn, with limited amounts to what owners can pump into their clubs.

I'd forgotten all about that. It will be interesting to see if that is ever introduced into FM (possibly for FM2012?), it could well change the way a lot of people play the game.

[Decuz]

Would be nice if there was a limit on spending (in the real world and in FM) for every team each season(one full season). For example 35m Euros. Then the teams can't spend like Man C or Real Madrid.

[Badass_]

Would be nice if there was a limit on spending (in the real world and in FM) for every team each season(one full season). For example 35m Euros. Then the teams can't spend like Man C or Real Madrid.

what's the fun in that ? lol

I know it can be annoying that the same clubs dominate the world all the time but every time there's a club on top, are we gonna make up a way of even things?

[Decuz]

It would make the teams more even without a doubt. The big teams can't buy every single good player from the smaller teams.. Then the small teams have a chance to actually become stronger. But that's just my oppinion,

[Badass_]

It would make the teams more even without a doubt. The big teams can't buy every single good player from the smaller teams.. Then the small teams have a chance to actually become stronger. But that's just my oppinion,

yeah but in the long run, what's the result of doing something like that? if Football was completely even there would be no fun.

[nev147]

I disagree there are around 10 players who would be unavailable at Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Inter Milan, AC Milan, Lyon.

Add in another 3-5 players at teams on the same level as Liverpool, Tottenham, Valencia, Roma etc + say one or two key players at other clubs in top divisions and you have over 100.

Please name them? I mean 10 at Lyon - I am sorry but please name one that should have a sale value £80m or more/unavailable. I am sorry to sounds harsh - but that really is laughable!

[dafuge]

Would be nice if there was a limit on spending (in the real world and in FM) for every team each season(one full season). For example 35m Euros. Then the teams can't spend like Man C or Real Madrid.

The new regulations will sort of do that, but the big clubs will still be able to spend more than the small clubs because they can afford to. The clubs that will be hit hardest are the ones who are not actually generating thier own money, but either having it put in by an owner (Man City) or building a large debt (Real Madrid).

I'd be interested to see how this could work in FM, the financial aspects of the game would have to be absolutely spot on.

[Badass_]

Please name them? I mean 10 at Lyon - I am sorry but please name one that should have a sale value £80m or more/unavailable. I am sorry to sounds harsh - but that really is laughable!

Lyon would sell any of their players for 40mil let alone 80.... no disrespect but cougar is out of his mind.

[dafuge]

Please name them? I mean 10 at Lyon - I am sorry but please name one that should have a sale value £80m or more/unavailable. I am sorry to sounds harsh - but that really is laughable!

There's probably quite a lot that are unavailable in the sense that the club could reject any bid that another club would realistically make.

[Badass_]

There's probably quite a lot that are unavailable in the sense that the club could reject any bid that another club would realistically make.

Actually that's not what cougar meant. From my understanding what he meant was 10 players who the club would not sell not matter the offer. And in all actuality, 30/40 mil would be more then enough to buy any player from Lyon...

Probably even less...

[nev147]

Maybe dafuge - but say we are SAF - we see a Lyon player who we think is immense - but not many do. If we think this player is a future star then we would not have to make a bit of any more then £40m or more - whether it is realistic or not is irellevent IMO becasue we as the manager have that choice and if we feel £40m is fair then so be it.

[nev147]

Yes exactly badass!

[nev147]

And also player power should be more important like real life - as seen every summer in real life. And how many of the bigger clubs can get players to join as that player wants to join - maybe like Mascarehno IRL - in FM you could not get him for around £20m - even if he was unsettled!

[dafuge]

Maybe dafuge - but say we are SAF - we see a Lyon player who we think is immense - but not many do. If we think this player is a future star then we would not have to make a bit of any more then £40m or more - whether it is realistic or not is irellevent IMO becasue we as the manager have that choice and if we feel £40m is fair then so be it.

But the whole point I'm making is that people are criticising the lack of realism in the transfer system by using examples of unrealistic bids to find faults, it is completely hypocritical.

[Rista]

But the whole point I'm making is that people are criticising the lack of realism in the transfer system by using examples of unrealistic bids to find faults, it is completely hypocritical.

Fix the AI asking prices, and you've automatically fixed the "unrealistic" bids from human managers. If I as a manager believe that paying 40m for a certain player valued 15m IS worth it, then that makes the deal a value for money for me. Everyone does have their price both IRL and in the game, it's just that those prices are much higher in the game than they should be. I just don't see how can anyone justify the AI asking 98m for the likes of Gallas by saying Arsenal don't want to sell.

[Rista]

And also player power should be more important like real life - as seen every summer in real life. And how many of the bigger clubs can get players to join as that player wants to join - maybe like Mascarehno IRL - in FM you could not get him for around £20m - even if he was unsettled!

They have to hand in a transfer request then you can get them very cheap, maybe too cheap most of the time.

[Badass_]

Fix the AI asking prices, and you've automatically fixed the "unrealistic" bids from human managers.

exactly

[nev147]

They have to hand in a transfer request then you can get them very cheap, maybe too cheap most of the time.

Yes but the chances of a player handing in a transfer requeat are very small IMO!

[nev147]

Lets see what FM 11 brings with the new ways to negotiate and the parts agents play. Next time there will be a thread saying 'are the agents broken!!!' lol

[dafuge]

Fix the AI asking prices, and you've automatically fixed the "unrealistic" bids from human managers. If I as a manager believe that paying 40m for a certain player valued 15m IS worth it, then that makes the deal a value for money for me. Everyone does have their price both IRL and in the game, it's just that those prices are much higher in the game than they should be. I just don't see how can anyone justify the AI asking 98m for the likes of Gallas by saying Arsenal don't want to sell.

But the asking price of £98m for Gallas won't be seen unless you make a bid of, say, £60m. Surely no one could possibly think £60m is value for money?

[Hershie]

Yes but the chances of a player handing in a transfer requeat are very small IMO!

Really? In the last two seasons I've managed to grab two brilliant players (Rodwell and Ozil) for their 'value' due to them transfer listing themselves. Rodwell's team were underachieving and Ozil wanted a move away.

As for 'fixing AI asking prices': there's nothing to 'fix' in that respect. They aren't asking prices - they're default values used by the game to set a player a sale value, or set them as unavailable, depending on their club, happiness etc. You should not be able to see them, and cannot without a third-party tool. What needs fixing, or rather tweaking, is the way in which clubs respond to you, in the sense that rather than asking for values that people whinge about as 'unrealistic', they just refuse to communicate with you beyond saying 'not for sale' - unless situation changes, eg. the player asks to move. Once the player gets involved then maybe the club will be open to negotiation, and as it is programmed to, their 'asking price' (as you put it) falls. This is still obviously dependant on the player and the club, and there's no guarantee that they'd listen to bids even with an unsettled player.

[Rista]

But the asking price of £98m for Gallas won't be seen unless you make a bid of, say, £60m. Surely no one could possibly think £60m is value for money?

No, but again it's the AI that make you bid so much in the first place. Sure, you could just walk away at certain point of the negotiations but I just don't agree there should be so many players that are "not for sale" and therefore would cost more than the by far biggest transfer in football history. Only the very best ones at the biggest clubs should be "not for sale" IMO. So I don't believe simply changing the AI from asking 100 million to refusing to communicate with you beyond saying "we don't want to sell" is the solution either.

[Hershie]

The AI don't make you bid. If you're daft enough to listen to them asking for £100m as anything other than them saying 'go away', then you're being the mug that they hope you are. They're saying 'if you want to buy this player that much, feel free to bid a stupid amount' because we aren't selling. That said, if they don't want to negotiate, they simply shouldn't. As real managers do, you can't just go after any player saying 'right, he's good, I'll have him', you have to assess who clubs would consider selling, who's unsettled, who wants to join you and who you can afford.

They're not neccessarily 'not for sale', they're just 'not for sale right now', in the sense that the club has no need to sell as the player doesn't want to leave, they don't need the money etc, and also that they'd need to find a replacement. If one of these changes then maybe the club will negotiate, or the player will get unsettled.

[Badass_]

The AI don't make you bid. If you're daft enough to listen to them asking for £100m as anything other than them saying 'go away', then you're being the mug that they hope you are. They're saying 'if you want to buy this player that much, feel free to bid a stupid amount' because we aren't selling. That said, if they don't want to negotiate, they simply shouldn't. As real managers do, you can't just go after any player saying 'right, he's good, I'll have him', you have to assess who clubs would consider selling, who's unsettled, who wants to join you and who you can afford.

They're not neccessarily 'not for sale', they're just 'not for sale right now', in the sense that the club has no need to sell as the player doesn't want to leave, they don't need the money etc, and also that they'd need to find a replacement. If one of these changes then maybe the club will negotiate, or the player will get unsettled.

We already know that it's a "go away" message, thank you very much.

The point we're making is, how many clubs can have that luxury nowadays? 2, 3 ?

[Cougar2010]

Actually that's not what cougar meant. From my understanding what he meant was 10 players who the club would not sell not matter the offer. And in all actuality, 30/40 mil would be more then enough to buy any player from Lyon...

Probably even less...

Please don't tell people what I mean I am quite capable of speaking for myself especially when you are so wide of the mark.

I mean that in RL at those listed clubs there are approx 10 players where realistic bids would be rejected. Its a waste of time saying £40m+ bids would be accepted as that situation very rarely arises in real life because real managers have more sense.

I'm going to give up on this thread now as everybody is going round in circles.

I've tried to explain to those having issues why things happen and why they get certain responses unfortunately some show no interest in trying to understand the game preferring to believe that they have a god given right to be able to sign any player they want.

I'll bow out by quoting an earlier post I made:

At the best clubs, transfers fall into three main categories.

A) Club want to keep player but player wants to move on.

B) Player not in club plans and surplus to requirements.

C) Club having financial issues and wanting to cash in.

You can also add a fourth category which would cover most top leagues.

D) Player gets head turned and thinks grass is greener.

[Hershie]

We don't know, because no-one is, in reality, going to try and bid for someone who they don't think they can get. If you're managing in that way then you're in fairly unknown waters so to speak.

I'd say there are a lot of teams out there who wouldn't consider any bids for their first teamers, at least not unless the player suggested they wanted a move first. The problem with comparing to real life is that I'm sure there's often a lot of 'behind the scenes' discussion with players before bids are accepted, if they're important to the team. If a team makes a bid for a major player and the player says 'I don't want to leave', then the club will likely take that stance too.

[Hershie]

I'm going to give up on this thread now as everybody is going round in circles.

This tbf.

Points just seem to be repeated and repeatedly ignored or rejected without any logical opposition

[Badass_]

Please don't tell people what I mean I am quite capable of speaking for myself especially when you are so wide of the mark.

Someone else interpreted your quote the same way I did so maybe you just need to express yourself better.

Nev said ..."but I maintain that there not over 100 players in the world who are not available and the clubs will come back with a silly amount of £80m or more"

you said ..."I disagree there are around 10 players who would be unavailable at Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Inter Milan, AC Milan, Lyon."

Yep must have been me <- this little guy is rolling his eyes just to be clear.

[charlo116]

Someone else interpreted your quote the same way I did so maybe you just need to express yourself better.

Nev said ..."but I maintain that there not over 100 players in the world who are not available and the clubs will come back with a silly amount of £80m or more"

you said ..."I disagree there are around 10 players who would be unavailable at Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Inter Milan, AC Milan, Lyon."

Yep must have been me <- this little guy is rolling his eyes just to be clear.

You and nev did misinterpret though because you missed his point, clubs irl aren't going to bid a silly amount like 80m or more as has been said a number of times and its pointless to try to claim the system is broken using ridiculous figures.

I have to agree that this is just going around in circles and i doubt any real discussion is possible now.

[nev147]

Thers has been five pages - and I have enjoyed reading and posting. The threads in the past few months have barely had any discussion at all! This thread has been a breathe of fresh air - which shows what the forums have been like in recent months!!!

But if clubs dont bid that In real life then we as the human manager can't play as we want then to a degree - and the system is not cateering for our needs! lol

[charlo116]

Thers has been five pages - and I have enjoyed reading and posting. The threads in the past few months have barely had any discussion at all! This thread has been a breathe of fresh air - which shows what the forums have been like in recent months!!!

But if clubs dont bid that In real life then we as the human manager can't play as we want then to a degree - and the system is not cateering for our needs! lol

So you don't want to bid realistically? You want to be able to splurge unrealistic amounts to grab any player you want?

[Brian Shanahan]

At Martyn - Yes I understand that when clubs ask for an obscene amount it is their way of saying hands off - but I maintain that there not over 100 players in the world who are not available and the clubs will come back with a silly amount of £80m or more. What I am saying is the amount should be alot less for most of them - but not the very elite players - as I have already said. The system is not broken - just needs tweaking IMO. Like Badaas said we dont want to be able to buy players on the cheap - not at all - and some players we will just not be able to buy etc which is correct. But its when clubs ask for £80m-£140m when realistically it is between maybe £40-£60! But it as if £40-£60m on fm is cheap - but know they would be up there with the highest transfers of all time. For me there are only a select few players who can command such a fee imo.

How do you know this, most of the failed bids, I would imagine, are behind closed doors. The only time we hear of failed bids officially is when the buying club is mad to get the player but doesn't have the money the selling club wants, or the player wants to leave but the selling club doesn't have the money. The story is then leaked and much made of it in the media. Maybe over the last 3 years all the big clubs in Europe have put in feeler bids for Messi, but on hearing the quote price and knowing he won't come anyway don't publicise the bid. We don't know. Also I do think the system needs tweaking, as some high values are unrealistic (e.g. most German clubs atm will sell at the £20-£25m bracket as they haven't the glamour of other leagues or the financial stupidity either). But there are some users here who still maintain that the system is broken, which imo is simply because they want to be able to assemble the world's best 22 for under £150m.

[BossAsianMafia]

So you don't want to bid realistically? You want to be able to splurge unrealistic amounts to grab any player you want?

Who are you to judge what is realistic to the player? How can a player tell what is intrinsically the realistic value for a player if they bid more than 3 times the value displayed and still get rejected?

I think what pple are not happy about is that realistically we should not get our bids rejected at >$30-40mil for mid-tier (not the Messi, Ronaldo type) players.

Do you agree with that?

[grade]

I think is not saying that.

Contracting the best of the World shouldn't be impossible task, because many people that play FM want the best of the best on their team. Sure, it may not the way many of you play, but a middle ground to please all sides should be found.

What I think it leads to the confusion and the high asking prices (that some users have appointed) is because we had since CM had pretty much the same transfer system. You wanted player that was worth of 10 million you had to bid between 13 and 15 million. That was the system. Now with new system the players continue to use that (At least me and my friends) and had pretty high asking prices and of course was a bit of confusion.

What reallity really tells us? The highest transfer was C. Ronaldo for 98 million, so the best of the best should be around that final value (not asking prices). And then as the quality of player declines, so declines the prices. Also if a club doesn't want to sell, then they say it and the player will move on to another target. it work on previous versions, why not in future ones?

[Rista]

But there are some users here who still maintain that the system is broken, which imo is simply because they want to be able to assemble the world's best 22 for under £150m.

I don't think that's true at all. A fair few people have already mentioned that we shouldn't be really getting as much money as we currently are.

We already know that it's a "go away" message, thank you very much.

The point we're making is, how many clubs can have that luxury nowadays? 2, 3 ?

Real Madrid and Manchester City. I don't think even Barca can afford to respond with "go away with your 80 million", except maybe for Messi. It's as if some people don't realize how much money that is IRL. To say that all the top clubs have 10 players is their squad who they wouldn't sell for that figure is just ridiculous.

This thread has started going in circles indeed and it seems no one is going to change their opinion on this. If people think there is absolutely nothing wrong with Arsenal rejecting 20, 40, 60 or 80 million for a 33 year old Gallas because "they don't want to sell right now" then so be it. I don't think the transfer system is broken, it just needs some serious tweaking.

[Brian Shanahan]

I don't think that's true at all. A fair few people have already mentioned that we shouldn't be really getting as much money as we currently are.

And they're all people like me who are arguing that, aside from at most a few tweaks, the transfer system is actually broken.

I hadn't actually read Cougars last post before making the one you've quoted, but if even he can't make people see the sense in our side here, I don't know why I'm even bothering, as I've a far smaller chance (his style of arguement is usually a lot better than mine). So as he said I'll let ye go around in circles.

[grade]

I don't think that's true at all. A fair few people have already mentioned that we shouldn't be really getting as much money as we currently are.

Real Madrid and Manchester City. I don't think even Barca can afford to respond with "go away with your 80 million", except maybe for Messi. It's as if some people don't realize how much money that is IRL. To say that all the top clubs have 10 players is their squad who they wouldn't sell for that figure is just ridiculous.

This thread has started going in circles indeed and it seems no one is going to change their opinion on this. If people think there is absolutely nothing wrong with Arsenal rejecting 20, 40, 60 or 80 million for a 33 year old Gallas because "they don't want to sell right now" then so be it. I don't think the transfer system is broken, it just needs some serious tweaking.

Then what is wrong with Arsenal say "The player is not for sale!"?

[charlo116]

Who are you to judge what is realistic to the player? How can a player tell what is intrinsically the realistic value for a player if they bid more than 3 times the value displayed and still get rejected?

I think what pple are not happy about is that realistically we should not get our bids rejected at >$30-40mil for mid-tier (not the Messi, Ronaldo type) players.

Do you agree with that?

I think if you wanted realism then you shouldn't be bidding that in the first place fo those players otherwise the ai will respond in an unrealistic manner.

[fonkey123]

If Rmad bid 80mil for messi, iniesta, or xavi I would be willing to bet that barca would say no.

[aderow]

If Rmad bid 80mil for messi, iniesta, or xavi I would be willing to bet that barca would say no.

Oh I can guarantee that.....unless said players were upset and wanted to leave......

[charlo116]

Oh I can guarantee that.....unless said players were upset and wanted to leave......

even then i doubt they would sell them to real madrid for any fee.