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No more TT&F


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Just wondering what people's reaction is to the news that there will be no TT&F11. Will it impact on negatively on people's experience of the game? Or will it benefit the community, due to the fact that there is no guide, and people will be forced to rely more on their own tactical ideas and instincts? Thoughts anybody?

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I don't think it'll be a problem. The Match Engine explanation will not change so much that the FM10 one become useless. It's still a good basic guide for newcomers. And the most important thing is not the guide anyway, it's the healthy discussion that goes on in this forum.

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Wouldn't make any difference to me. The information,help,tips or whatever will be available for FREE on the various FM sites, as it always has been. it will just be a case of putting it together yourself.

If you look at the "unofficial" guides they have the virtually the same information jazzed up with-in them as you can find on the other forums, if not then I'm sure the community will help where they can

in fact I'm happy that I won't have to feel the need to BUY something that is already there for Free that we all contribute too in the general discussions.

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TT&F was free...

Yes but they charged for their new guide, CPW, and may have planned in the future to start charging for TT&F, although that is denied on their website.

To some extent I agree with you Baroslfc, there is already a great amount of tactical knowledge available to people on this forum and many other fansites, but I felt that with Richard Claydon now being part of the 'team' helping with the Tactics creator, the guide may have started to offer some genuinely different insights into the game, although obviously that won't happen now.

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Yes but they charged for their new guide, CPW, and may have planned in the future to start charging for TT&F, although that is denied on their website.

They wouldn't have ever charged for TT&F because SI endorse it. They'd have to change the name and all kinds however I agree that the general concept of charging for guides are 'wrong'. Personally, I don't download anything but figure stuff out by experimenting on the game before going into a real game. The first few months I get FM is spent heavily experimenting and messing about with new features which is how I learn.

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They wouldn't have ever charged for TT&F because SI endorse it. They'd have to change the name and all kinds however I agree that the general concept of charging for guides are 'wrong'. Personally, I don't download anything but figure stuff out by experimenting on the game before going into a real game. The first few months I get FM is spent heavily experimenting and messing about with new features which is how I learn.

Exactly, and I think now more people will have to adopt your approach to the game, and therefore understand the game engine more and develop their own tactics and playing styles, as they don't have a 'helping hand'

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I think it's a shame...I have yet to find anything as comprehensive as that guide. The worst part of it all is not losing TT&F but the regular content that they produced...Tactically I have yet to find a site as in-depth...

Yes they did create a lot of content that was both interesting to read and useful, and for a long time they have arguably been the backbone of the tactical community.

Welcome to the forum btw :)

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I think SI and FMB have valid points. Unfortunately those points are, for the most part, appear diametrically opposed. I enjoyed the last three TT&F and found them helpful. It's obvious there was a lot of effort put into their production as well.

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Well I suppose some good news is that Richard Claydon is continuing to work with SI to improve the tactics creator, which, if the FMB guys are to be believed over their shabby treatment (and I believe there's some debate over that), is very good of him.

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Personally I feel SI should be releasing a guide like that themselves as they have been getting away with providing minimal documentation for too long. FMB were pretty much documenting the game for them, FM is a complex game yet SI seem to think obfusicating game functions is good for the game.

In the video that was released upon FM11 announcement, it is mentioned that training had not been touched for a long time because they had no real ideas on how to make it better. I think tactics have been suffering from the same problems with SI not really knowing how to make them better.

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Kazza - you might like to read our "right to reply" which is published on their website, presuming that you only read the email mail shot that they've done, that did not include the right to reply (which we find a bit odd).

There are very much 2 sides to this story.

Yes I saw your reply and it did put a different side to the story. And yes your reply does make a difference to how I now see the bigger picture. I saw it on the main forum and it clarified a lot of points. Also a pity they did not publish your response in the email shot!

Thanks for that.

K

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The fact that SI's reply is not on the email has led to several people on the FMB forum, and this one, believing everything that was put forward by the FMB guys and bemoaning the fact that a big company was threatening legal action. It seems to be a deliberate tactic to drum up support for the little guy.

Anyway, this thread is inevitably is beginning to go down the road of the rights and wrongs of both sides, so any further contribution would be better off in that thread.

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I've read article on FMB with SI mail included. I understand that FMB crew can't spend whole day playing FM but I doubt that anyone expects them to write new articles daily. Also putting donation button isn't begging for money and it can be helpful to pay server costs. Since none of us know the whole story I can only say that FMB seems bit butt-hurt judging by their public reaction. I love their site and forum but their reaction was bit awkward and probably impulsive.

Maybe they are on some rip off hosting provider and I can understand high costs of maintaining website, I can hook them up with my provider if needed. Also I understand their wish to reward their staff if possible but that goal should be secondary if expenses are covered.

Again, donation button isn't begging if you just put it there and don't harass people to give money. I firmly believe that everyone who appreciates their work will help out according to their abilities

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While FMB was certainly active in producing content, a lot of the regular members of this particular forum have produced content that is as valuable as what has come out of FMB, if not more valuable. I speak specifically of the more systematic, scientific approaches taken to attribute weighting, player development, training, and so on.

Hopefully this change will encourage further growth of this particular subforum, and add a great deal to the community-- which everyone can benefit from.

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As for the topic itself, I can see and understand both sides of the story. Both have valid arguments in their favour, however I think SI are pretty clear where the difference is between a "fansite" and a "business model". Obviously FMB's decision will be viewed however the viewer wants to read it, as will the statement by SI.

Personally though, I've always preferred using the Tactics & Training Tips forum, right here. Any guides, information or tips I've provided, have always been in this forum. They have been copied directly or "paraphrased" on other sites, mostly having asked me first, although to be honest, I'm not really concerned if they do appear elsewhere. For me part of the "community" is the sharing of information. I don't do it for reward or profit, but when I have the time and am able to do so, I like sharing my thoughts and efforts as part of my wider enjoyment of the FM series. If I was in it for the money, then I certainly wouldn't be moderating or, as of more recently, researching.

If someone decides they want to start charging for their expertise, then that's up to them. It's not something that's new to video games, as there's probably countless examples of similar circumstances for probably every (certainly strategy orientated) game out there. Those who decide to charge for their efforts are always then outside the circle, so to speak, from that point onwards.

As for useful information, guides, tips, or just general advice, I think the forums here cover every base. Yes, there's sometimes a need to trawl for gems of information amongst threads, but they are there. Perhaps I and the other T&TT moderators need to keep an eye out more for such useful topics, but you as the "reader" can help to, by bringing them to our attention. I've absolutely nothing against people contacting me with requests to "sticky" a thread, or creating a central point to find stuff, such as the "Tactics Bible".

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I disagree with SI on many things. In this instance I support them. Fan content should always be free, IMO. Once fans start charging for things, however noble their intentions in trying to provide the best quality stuff and covering their costs, they go against the spirit of what fan content should be. If FMB were finding that their costs were getting too great, the people involved would have to either swallow the costs themselves or cut back on what they were providing. Going down the "professional" route or however else they term it is indeed, IMO, turning fan content into a business. And SI are right, both from a business and community perspective, in not letting them get a free ride on SI's back.

I will miss TT&F but I think the content available elsewhere makes up for it. In any case, for me the guides were always very interesting and fun reads rather than something that helped me to understand the game better. That could just be the stage I'm at in my understanding of the game, and maybe some other people did find the guides more helpful. Whatever else could be said, the people who worked on those projects were clearly dedicated and talented people who have a passion for the game, and I hope they continue to be involved in the FM community in other roles.

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The latest TT&F or T&T or whatever it was called was a quality piece of work and I don't think many people will disagree with that. I wouldn't have paid for it however, but then I disagree with the whole premise of paying for content in this community.

Apparently, FM Britain were intending (at least, at some point) to charge for TT&F 2011. TT&F11 was apparently to be priced at 9.95 GBP. :eek: That really shocked me.

I'm surprised to see that FM Britain have suggested that they were actually aiming to target people who 'never visit the forums' and aren't part of the FM scene. And, they were using their 'beta testers' label in order to give themselves credibility, as shown here:

ebookcpw10quote.png

What I find difficult to swallow is the way that this has been promoted to new gamers and those who may not realise that the FM Britain work is based on opinion and isn't some kind of 'ultimate guide' or bible to FM10 (which they make it sound like). Referring to CPW, I would actually suggest that there are much better guides to team talks and so on available on the SI forums for free. Also, while T&T10 was a great read, there were also a number of inaccuracies and things that certainly aren't fact but instead opinion.

ebookcpw10title.png

Leaving aside the question of the rights and wrongs of 'premium content' for a minute, I think this leaves another question as to whether FM Britain were essentially taking advantage of innocent and naive (and, very possibly, young) gamers who don't know any better and believe of all of the hype?

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Although I can't really blame FMB for exploring the avenue they did, for FM and pretty much any game out there, there's a wealth of free information on't interweb ;)

Sometimes you might have to dig a little, but it is out there.

That's what I'm saying though heathxxx. If you're a new FMer and you want a guide but don't really know about the tactics forum, you may be 'conned' into thinking that you need to pay £8 for the 'ultimate squad management.... guide' by the 'game's beta testing dream team'. :rolleyes:

Ultimately, all of the information is out there, as you suggest. Nobody needs to pay £8 for this information.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Personally I have found that sticking questions and ideas around and actually discussing things with people over forums like this one is incomparably superior to any individual set piece guide.

TT&F ofcourse did help me and give me valuable information, but it was never a patch on what I learned and discovered by discussing FM with other people on these forums.

Guides are great to have, but a forum full of people with ideas that are willing and wanting to have a discussion is a completely different level of information resource.

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Just wondering what people's reaction is to the news that there will be no TT&F11. Will it impact on negatively on people's experience of the game? Or will it benefit the community, due to the fact that there is no guide, and people will be forced to rely more on their own tactical ideas and instincts? Thoughts anybody?

I don't think it will have a great effect. When FM11 is released people will create many tactics and tactical advice threads and I think there will be enough to help a user who has no tactical expierence at al.

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