Fm2011 drm

[Glyn]

there is no need for you to personally attack an SI customer.

I wasn't 'attacking' anyone, I was making an observation. If that is all it takes for you to think someone's attacking you, then God knows what you've taken umbrage over for no reason in the past.

[stonegate]

I'd like to make two points

Most people who buy/copy pirate copies would not ever pay for the real thing

Steam like any program that runs for a long time especially over the net can cause large amounts of 'garbage files' to accumulate on your computer and therefore slow it down. This does not happen all the time and really depends what else is running

[philly_flyer10]

Miles said that in some countries more than 5m people play pirated version. In the FM11 announcement thread.

But how is that different than the 09 version that was cracked too, in fact pirates were playing when the paying customer couldnt.

The only effective DRM is one that cant be broken and doesnt drive away customers.

It doesnt matter if you stop 5m pirates from playing the game if you stop 10k customers from buying the game because they hate the DRM. Its cutting your nose off to spite your face. Pirates will just move onto another game while sales of FM will be down. In fact, I wouldnt be surprised if they gained more sales from piracy by getting people hooked on the game.

[Matt ex SEGA]

In summary of the last few years...

- We made some mistakes with 09 - which we've admitted to. Believe me, we still discuss them when trying to work out how to protect SI's income.

- We're not keen to do anything like that again - hence FM10 being different - more customer focused (and from our perspective, less secure) because we realised we'd erred.

- We're unlikely to revert to anything that doesn't result in a good experience for the consumer. I don't think Miles has announced the plan yet, but the conversations I've seen have revolved around doing something similar to FM2010.

I'm pretty sure there'll be some official detail on this shortly.

Cheers

Matt

[Arijit]

It seems still many people hate/don't like Steam, even in SI forums (I've been to other forums too).

My point of view is:

1. Steam is already made his presence in PC gaming industry. You've to admit and hug & brace them.

2. Personally I don't like CD/DVD to be placed in the drive all the time because of scratch/breaking issues. You cannot escape that. That's a fact.

3. Another fact : millions of Steam users cannot be wrong. Period.

4. I personally like my games collection digitally, that's why chosen Steam. But I know plenty prefers otherwise.

5. Steam already announced, if they had to Shutdown their business anytime, they'll provide alternative way to Steam users to play the game without logging to Steam online. Though, I don't think they need to do that in near future ... at least as long as my gaming urges continue to thrive.

6. Now a days, Steam also provides pre-load for many games. So user can pre-load (or download?) the game into their machine and start playing as soon as game is officially unlocked.

I can go with plenty of other points but these seems enough advantages of Steam. I do believe SI (or SEGA) believes this too and won't hesitate to include Steam for FM 2011. ohh! Wait, they already did. Here it is: http://store.steampowered.com/app/34220/

[dave byrd]

Best way forward Matt. The pirates will always pirate the game whatever the copy protection so best to concentrate on the best experience for the customer as you said. Having said that, i had no problems with the DRM on FM09 but thousands did with activation and stuff so i can see why it was scrapped as like i said, the pirates will still pirate the game anyway.

@ Arijit, my feeling on steam is that for me it's simply not required. I buy and game, install it and update it myself and when i'm done i uninstall it. Simple.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

I will tell Miles to gather all the 5m people to have a talk with you.

I have seen piracy. Of all the people I know IRL only two buy originals and only for their PS3.

Also I haven't seen a single person running original windows either. (Non OEM)

Serious question, and please excuse my ignorance if I am missing an important point, but why do they buy the original PS3 games?, are they "crack proof", and if so why is this method of protection not used for the PC products? (I appreciate the Sony copywrite).

[Arijit]

Serious question, and please excuse my ignorance if I am missing an important point, but why do they buy the original PS3 games?, are they "crack proof", and if so why is this method of protection not used for the PC products? (I appreciate the Sony copywrite).

To play a cracked console game you need to have hacked console. PS2 and XBOX gets cracked easily. X360 and PS3 didn't get hacked.

Also price of Blue-ray burner and game's download size (in range of 15+ GB) is one of the factor they didn't get popularized. In case of PC these hassles are not there.

[Ishu]

It doesnt matter if you stop 5m pirates from playing the game if you stop 10k customers from buying the game because they hate the DRM. Its cutting your nose off to spite your face. Pirates will just move onto another game while sales of FM will be down. In fact, I wouldnt be surprised if they gained more sales from piracy by getting people hooked on the game.

The reason PS3 sales are lower than XBOX 360 and Wii.

Serious question, and please excuse my ignorance if I am missing an important point, but why do they buy the original PS3 games?, are they "crack proof", and if so why is this method of protection not used for the PC products? (I appreciate the Sony copywrite).

Yes PS3 is crack proof. XBox 360 and Wii aren't.

The reason given by arijit are the reasons that not many people trying.

The real reason is that something in the PS3 hardware is locked/ can't be accesed. This can't be used for PC for obvious reasons.

[dave byrd]

The PS3 is NOT crack proof. Do a seach for PS3 Jailbreak.

[Ishu]

Well I took his word and I was talking about playing Games.

EDIT: Yeah I read about that. One firmware upgrade.......poof

[Neji]

The pirates will always pirate the game whatever the copy protection so best to concentrate on the best experience for the customer as you said.

I think you're spot on that pirates will always eventually break the copy protection. However, the key word there is 'eventually'. For games, I imagine that DRM is about delaying the pirates, rather than stopping them. Of course, stopping them would be the ideal but as you said, it's not really going to happen. Uniloc was awful for those who bought and wanted to play on release day but IIRC there wasn't a 100% working pirated version of FM09 out even on release day. (I could be wrong, but I read about A LOT of problems with pirated versions). As odd as it's sounds, that is probably somewhat of a success.

[jakobx]

Please visit gaming websites. You can find developers openly favoring Steam against piracy problem. Very recently I've noticed this: http://www.gamertell.com/gaming/comment/how-steam-saved-introversion-software/ and this http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=261490?cid=OTC-RSS&attr=CVG-News-RSS

Sorry to break the very bad news for you. Normal CD-check only game won't be released anymore. Steam is here to stay and it'll stay.

dwm.exe doesn't do useful and I find it resource hog (12-15MB of RAM) in 1or 2GB based system. It also causes graphical redraw problems many times. If someone has 4GB system dwm won't affect much like Steam.

By the way, I've never heard that a big-budget game is released on Steam and not on Retail disc (might be true for some indie games, not sure). Can you find me one?

Im not talking about selling the game through steam only, im talking about games that force you to run the game through steam. Games like fear 2 for example, or the new fallout new vegas and civilization 5. Games that i would buy if they were available without DRM. There are still developers who are releasing drm free games. For example FM10 can be run without DRM and thats why i bought it while i skipped FM09.

Ok dwm.exe isnt exactly necessary but i like to run a fancy window manager. Im ready to sacrifice a few MB of ram for a better experience.

[jakobx]

It seems still many people hate/don't like Steam, even in SI forums (I've been to other forums too).

My point of view is:

1. Steam is already made his presence in PC gaming industry. You've to admit and hug & brace them.

2. Personally I don't like CD/DVD to be placed in the drive all the time because of scratch/breaking issues. You cannot escape that. That's a fact.

3. Another fact : millions of Steam users cannot be wrong. Period.

4. I personally like my games collection digitally, that's why chosen Steam. But I know plenty prefers otherwise.

5. Steam already announced, if they had to Shutdown their business anytime, they'll provide alternative way to Steam users to play the game without logging to Steam online. Though, I don't think they need to do that in near future ... at least as long as my gaming urges continue to thrive.

6. Now a days, Steam also provides pre-load for many games. So user can pre-load (or download?) the game into their machine and start playing as soon as game is officially unlocked.

I can go with plenty of other points but these seems enough advantages of Steam. I do believe SI (or SEGA) believes this too and won't hesitate to include Steam for FM 2011. ohh! Wait, they already did. Here it is: http://store.steampowered.com/app/34220/

1.) They are the biggest player when it comes to digital downloads but they are far from being the best. I prefer GOG. No DRM on their games.

2.) Never happened to me. I agree cd checks are annoying but its better than DRM. No cd check is of course the most user friendly way, but few games have that option.

3.) Riiight...Just like earth is still flat and everything revolves around us.

4.) If you like it you should have a choice.

5.) Why is everyone saying that? If they go down they wont have the right to do something like that. (you know..laws and such) In reality when they go down your account will go down with them.

6.) Preloading is needed to prevent downtime during major releases. I prefer to play the game when i receive it and not have to wait for the company to give me permission to play what i bought.

There is nothing wrong with releasing the game on steam as well. Personally i have it installed on my steam account, but i wouldnt have bought it if there wasnt an option to install it without DRM.

[Ishu]

I think EA found a way to "delay" piracy with FIFA M. Atleast in FIFAM 08 I heard that the game used to crash on some dates. Lots of mess in their forums. Pirates only found a way in JAN. maybe SI can copy something from them for a change .

[philly_flyer10]

I think EA found a way to "delay" piracy with FIFA M. Atleast in FIFAM 08 I heard that the game used to crash on some dates. Lots of mess in their forums. Pirates only found a way in JAN. maybe SI can copy something from them for a change .

The only way EA cuts down on piracy is to make games so awful than no on wants to play it, even for free.

[Arijit]

Im not talking about selling the game through steam only, im talking about games that force you to run the game through steam. Games like fear 2 for example, or the new fallout new vegas and civilization 5. Games that i would buy if they were available without DRM. There are still developers who are releasing drm free games. For example FM10 can be run without DRM and thats why i bought it while i skipped FM09.

Ok dwm.exe isnt exactly necessary but i like to run a fancy window manager. Im ready to sacrifice a few MB of ram for a better experience.

So you never heard about Steamworks? This system is developed by Valve - maker of Steam. Read here: http://www.steampowered.com/steamworks/index.php

I don't know about FEAR 2, but CIV V, FO : new vegas etc. games uses Steamworks. Steamworks is tightly coupled with Steam service. That's why they need Steam to run. FM10 didn't use Steamworks as it's DRM, IIRC they used CD-check which was securom based.

[Ishu]

The only way EA cuts down on piracy is to make games so awful than no on wants to play it, even for free.

I like FIFA and Burnout Paradise

[Arijit]

1.) They are the biggest player when it comes to digital downloads but they are far from being the best. I prefer GOG. No DRM on their games.

2.) Never happened to me. I agree cd checks are annoying but its better than DRM. No cd check is of course the most user friendly way, but few games have that option.

3.) Riiight...Just like earth is still flat and everything revolves around us.

4.) If you like it you should have a choice.

5.) Why is everyone saying that? If they go down they wont have the right to do something like that. (you know..laws and such) In reality when they go down your account will go down with them.

6.) Preloading is needed to prevent downtime during major releases. I prefer to play the game when i receive it and not have to wait for the company to give me permission to play what i bought.

There is nothing wrong with releasing the game on steam as well. Personally i have it installed on my steam account, but i wouldnt have bought it if there wasnt an option to install it without DRM.

1) They are the biggest and best of this business. I've heard of GoG and bought few games. They are releaseing old games - so no way they can release FM11 or any new major games. Sorry for that. I don't think they will release "The Witcher 2" through GOG next year and it is their own production.

2) I've said it is possible that cd/dvd can be scratched or broken.

3) So, in your opinion, those 2+ million gamers are wrong? Fine ! Keep your opinion with yourself, I'll keep mine with me.

4) No argument. Choices are still there and going to be there.

5) Can't understand your argument. Can you explain?

6) I personally never bought a single game on release date. I wait for price cut. But whatever the reason - now a days a Steam user can pre-download the game before release time and start playing as soon as it's released, that's fine for me.

UPDATE: It's confirmed. Gog.com has been shut down today. http://www.gog.com/ Hopefully they will come back sooner than later.

Sadly, it looks like nobody can live with idea of DRM-free world.

[DSYoungEsq]

In my defence I had woken up less than an hour before posting which meant my coffee count was under 3 cups.

<lol> 'K, then you get a pass.

My first block students claim much the same when their arithmetic goes awry.

[jakobx]

So you never heard about Steamworks? This system is developed by Valve - maker of Steam. Read here: http://www.steampowered.com/steamworks/index.php

I don't know about FEAR 2, but CIV V, FO : new vegas etc. games uses Steamworks. Steamworks is tightly coupled with Steam service. That's why they need Steam to run. FM10 didn't use Steamworks as it's DRM, IIRC they used CD-check which was securom based.

I know its steamworks but the fact is they dont REALLY need steamworks. I dont understand companies who do that. You cant sell it over retail properly (its just a dvd case with a steam key) or over other competing digital services . Funny thing is that fallout 3 was a huge success and came without DRM. They even removed the cd check in later patches and now they went with a restrictive DRM.

[jakobx]

5) Can't understand your argument. Can you explain?

6) I personally never bought a single game on release date. I wait for price cut. But whatever the reason - now a days a Steam user can pre-download the game before release time and start playing as soon as it's released, that's fine for me.

UPDATE: It's confirmed. Gog.com has been shut down today. http://www.gog.com/ Hopefully they will come back sooner than later.

Sadly, it looks like nobody can live with idea of DRM-free world.

#5. Valve has no rights to release games from other companies. If they go bankrupt they dont even have the right to release their own games. Its extremely unlikely that they would go bankrupt any time soon, but lets face it, much bigger companies have failed.

#6. I only buy a few games on release date (FIFA and football manager only), for the rest i can wait. Getting the game before the release date i imagine is a nice thing for those living in larger markets. Since im from Slovenia im lucky if i get it on release day. (from UK). Buying from steam would for me probably be faster but i cant justify paying 50% more for this privilege. Anyway, preloading has been in steam for ages. I remember preloading when i was younger and wasnt paying attention to DRM

Its sad that GOG is shutting down. It was a nice place for those old games. Oh well...i usually buy old games from ebay anyway.

[Neji]

I'm pretty sure Fallout 3 had DRM, SecuROM I think.

[Romanista.]

the best thing to do is use fm10 style and add unilock to it, like this everyone will be happy. you can play the game:

1-through steam( for those that want auto updares and etc.)

2-with CD in drive( for those without internet)

3-unilock( for those that want nothing to do with steam and dont want to keep the CD in the drive)

[x42bn6]

3. Steam/Valve take banning someone incredibly seriously, they do not just ban people willy nilly for the fun of it, there is next to nothing you could do with regards to any FM game that would get Steam to ban your account unless they actively caught you pirating it. In short if you have a legit copy and are not cheating in mulitplayer games that use Steam directly (like counter strike) then you will not be banned.

The difficulty is the fact that unless you are in the US, you will find it difficult to get any decent form consumer support in the form of legislation. If I buy something from a company in the UK, various laws protect me, the consumer. It is a lot harder to do over the Internet.

In addition, if you are caught doing something bad with one game, you are locked out of your entire account. All software you have bought via Steam is also compromised. So yes, they do take it seriously, but this is nefarious.

4. It does add value, it lets you easily talk to friends who are also on steam while you are playing, it automatically downloads updates for you, it lets you access the game from any computer in the world you happen to be using (providing you download it again).

It doesn't add value in the sense that it doesn't really do anything that can't be done easily right now (Ventrilo, Skype, MSN, and downloading the updates yourself).

I don't really get anything more out of Steam than a disk version.

It has its faults such as slightly higher prices than retail but that is completely optional (nobody is forcing you to pay for the steam version of the game), or the lack of pre loads on certain games that leads to annoying delays on release.

Probably my biggest gripe with Steam - pricing (which has been detailed already, so I won't pile on... And I feel for you Aussies!).

Sorry I can't agree. It seems you play only Football Manager games in your life and don't know about Steam well.

1) Steam is absolutely necessary to tackle piracy problem in PC gaming industry. They are doing a fantastic job.

Steam contributes a little to stopping piracy (not much) but it's not absolutely necessary. Developers and publishers can do a lot more themselves. Steam just happens to be a useful way for developers to find a new market by cutting out shipping costs. It stops piracy slightly because anyone who can't get a game or finds it hard to obtain it legally has another choice (unless you are in Japan, see the poster above).

3) So called Steam's VAC system is not for all. You can be banned only if you are playing a multiplayer game hosted in Steam's own server and using cheats. If you are playing MP games in other 3rd-party servers or SP games and cheats your play, then Steam doesn't care about your cheat. Just FYI, I have played ES4:Oblivion in GodMode once and I didn't get banned.

I don't think that's the point. If you cheat in multiplayer games in a non-cheat-endorsed environment you can go away for all I care. But VAC isn't perfect - no anti-cheat mechanism is.

Steam is here to stay and they're helping PC gamers and reviving PC gaming industry in many ways.

I may sound like a Steam fanboy. But let me tell you I was a Steam hater once. But slowly and steadily bought many games over the Steam and found that actually it's better than the rest. It has wonderful gaming delivery system and unobtrusive DRM scheme. Sure, it has disadvantages too but it's good points outweighs bad.

I'm not convinced personally. Steam has too much of a monopoly in this area and I'm not going to consider it until prices come down - hopefully through another strong content-delivery system to keep Steam on their toes.

You wouldn't park your car in the house of a stranger you're supposed to trust. This is you getting software from Steam - you trust them to house all your software. To me, nothing beats having the DVD in my hand. I'm more than happy to buy a DVD without getting ripped off by Steam, even if it means waiting for it.

[x42bn6]

Please visit gaming websites. You can find developers openly favoring Steam against piracy problem. Very recently I've noticed this: http://www.gamertell.com/gaming/comment/how-steam-saved-introversion-software/ and this http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=261490?cid=OTC-RSS&attr=CVG-News-RSS

Sorry to break the very bad news for you. Normal CD-check only game won't be released anymore. Steam is here to stay and it'll stay.

dwm.exe doesn't do useful and I find it resource hog (12-15MB of RAM) in 1or 2GB based system. It also causes graphical redraw problems many times. If someone has 4GB system dwm won't affect much like Steam.

By the way, I've never heard that a big-budget game is released on Steam and not on Retail disc (might be true for some indie games, not sure). Can you find me one?

The links don't even mention piracy! It just mentions lacklustre sales, which could be due to the fact it's expensive to market a game properly. Steam cuts out most of these third-party costs (shipping and stuff) and reaches a greater audience.

This had nothing to do with piracy! Steam just gives consumers another way to buy games, which in turn increases sales. Piracy never comes into the equation for this simple fact.

yes. He said that in one of his interviews.

Even if all of them bought the game @$10, SI could have gained around $50mil and that's huge money. DRM like Steam needs to there.

It's difficult to justify this "if". Out of all these pirates some will inevitably pirate even if SI charge a nominal fee for the software. The solution for piracy is to build a closer relationship between customer and company and convince those pirates considering "switching" to legal to do so, through pricing and incentive.

[x42bn6]

It seems still many people hate/don't like Steam, even in SI forums (I've been to other forums too).

My point of view is:

1. Steam is already made his presence in PC gaming industry. You've to admit and hug & brace them.

DRM has made its presence in the PC gaming industry. So has dodgy in-game advertising and EA. I don't think I want to hug nor embrace any of these.

2. Personally I don't like CD/DVD to be placed in the drive all the time because of scratch/breaking issues. You cannot escape that. That's a fact.

Back it up.

3. Another fact : millions of Steam users cannot be wrong. Period.

Millions smoke...

5. Steam already announced, if they had to Shutdown their business anytime, they'll provide alternative way to Steam users to play the game without logging to Steam online. Though, I don't think they need to do that in near future ... at least as long as my gaming urges continue to thrive.

It's not been written into Steam's terms and conditions, so they aren't legally obliged to do so. They can pretty much say anything but it's not been legally endorsed yet.

[Ishu]

Back it up.

I agree. Only way I/someone can scratch their disc is by leaving it around. I leave my FM disc in the drive all the time.

Millions smoke...

Good Point

[philly_flyer10]

I like FIFA and Burnout Paradise

Maybe FIFA on the console but they used to release the same 5 year old FIFA and NHL series each year on the PC.

[philly_flyer10]

I agree. Only way I/someone can scratch their disc is by leaving it around. I leave my FM disc in the drive all the time.

I used to do that until a disc cracked from the inside from spinning up and slowing down all the time.

Still losing 1 game is better than losing £1K plus value of steam games if valve lock you out with no right of reply.

[jakobx]

I'm pretty sure Fallout 3 had DRM, SecuROM I think.

Only games for windows as an optional install. (if you reaaaally want achievements). Other than that it was just a normal cd check. It might have been securom but without any evil drm attached. Trust me...Im still playing it and i dont have to insert the cd.

[Neji]

Only games for windows as an optional install. (if you reaaaally want achievements). Other than that it was just a normal cd check. It might have been securom but without any evil drm attached. Trust me...Im still playing it and i dont have to insert the cd.

A disk check is still DRM though isn't it?

[philly_flyer10]

A disk check is still DRM though isn't it?

Of course but its not invasive, just a bit annoying.

[jakobx]

A disk check is still DRM though isn't it?

Its copy protection but i wouldnt exactly call it DRM. I can still install and play the game i bought without asking for permission from the company. So if i can play the game long after the company has closed, servers have been shut down etc then its ok and im not going to call it DRM. If on the other hand my ability to install and play the game is in the hands of some third party then its just renting for unknown amount of time and thus DRM.

[Arijit]

#5. Valve has no rights to release games from other companies. If they go bankrupt they dont even have the right to release their own games. Its extremely unlikely that they would go bankrupt any time soon, but lets face it, much bigger companies have failed.

#6. I only buy a few games on release date (FIFA and football manager only), for the rest i can wait. Getting the game before the release date i imagine is a nice thing for those living in larger markets. Since im from Slovenia im lucky if i get it on release day. (from UK). Buying from steam would for me probably be faster but i cant justify paying 50% more for this privilege. Anyway, preloading has been in steam for ages. I remember preloading when i was younger and wasnt paying attention to DRM

Its sad that GOG is shutting down. It was a nice place for those old games. Oh well...i usually buy old games from ebay anyway.

5) yes. I agree 100%. But Steam didn't promise that they will release games free of cost. They'll make such an option so that existing users won't be affected on Steam's closure. That's I think fair to every player in the industry - Publisher, Seller and buyer.

6) I understand your view. Some publishers/developers do not need it but still they did it and will be doing it. You or me can't help.

[Arijit]

DRM has made its presence in the PC gaming industry. So has dodgy in-game advertising and EA. I don't think I want to hug nor embrace any of these.

Back it up.

Millions smoke...

It's not been written into Steam's terms and conditions, so they aren't legally obliged to do so. They can pretty much say anything but it's not been legally endorsed yet.

That's a racial remark to Steam community. But I forgive you kid.

I've already agreed not every system is 100% perfect but Steam is doing better than the rest of the anti-piracy system.

On Steam's closure: I know it isn't written. But Steam's one of the gamer-friendly company. Millions of smokers believe in them

[Myros2]

I use steam frequently, my main problem with them is that their prices are ALWAYS higher for new releases than the equivalent game boxed version from a retail outlet.

No box, no disc, no manual = higher price. Yeah that makes a lot of sense. (eg just bought Civ V from amazon for £5 less than it is on steam, with free shipping too)

The only games I buy from steam are those that go on sale - and they do have superb sales I must admit.

Im sure it will be the same situation for FM 2011.

[englandmanager]

SI's protection of their business is understandable

logically it's just like locking your car from thieves

the sooner we abolish these pirates the better, i'm not bothered about DRM

why should they get to play for free when honest people have to pay?

[x42bn6]

That's a racial remark to Steam community. But I forgive you kid.

Er, what?

I've already agreed not every system is 100% perfect but Steam is doing better than the rest of the anti-piracy system.

Er, what? Steam sells video games. Anti-piracy systems protect games. Why do you say they are doing better? What's the point in comparing them?

On Steam's closure: I know it isn't written. But Steam's one of the gamer-friendly company. Millions of smokers believe in them

Niceness gets you nowhere in business. If Steam were so friendly towards gamers, why haven't they written that clause in yet? The concerns have been around for years.

SI's protection of their business is understandable

logically it's just like locking your car from thieves

the sooner we abolish these pirates the better, i'm not bothered about DRM

why should they get to play for free when honest people have to pay?

That's not DRM. DRM is car manufacturers (say, Toyota) forcing you to contact Toyota before you can drive your car, to make sure you aren't driving an illegally-built car. Locking your car is a bit like password-protecting your game.

You can't abolish pirates - pirates will always exist. Crackers will always exist. The objective is not to make it hard for pirates while hurting legitimate consumers, but getting pirates to jump over to legal avenues.

[philly_flyer10]

SI's protection of their business is understandable

logically it's just like locking your car from thieves

the sooner we abolish these pirates the better, i'm not bothered about DRM

why should they get to play for free when honest people have to pay?

Going with your analogy, the FM09 DRM allowed thieves to drive your car but you were locked out of it yourself.

Pirates will always get to play it, DRM or not. However you should never stop paying customers from playing it.

[Lenzar]

I wouldn't bother with any DRM.

Anyone that will pirate the game will crack it anyway, and I know of several people who pirate games then go on to buy it if they deem it good enough. Might as well save the coder's time for new features rather than CD Keys, online activation software and the latest version of SecuROM.

[Ely-matty]

wait for official news!

[r0x0r]

A few observations...

For those calling for no DRM, the last time a SI game was released DRM free was Championship Manager 2. Admittedly we then had a long time with "disk only in drive when starting the game", but last year's "disk in drive while playing" was directly comparable with most computer games over the past 10-15 years at least. Plus even retail buyers were given the steam option. On top of this, if the game was entirely DRM free, a lot of casual pirates would be created. How many "communal work copies" or "communal school copies" would make the rounds if it was install and play? I think I'd still buy the game, but with the temptation of a fully functioning uncracked version just by borrowing a mate's copy... I can't say with absolute certainty that i'd resist. As I said, I'd like to think I would, but...

For those bemoaning steam's pricing, retail users could still use Steam as DRM rather than a CD in drive last year. It's fair to assume that will continue.

For those bemoaning steam's install times, there are ways to install off of the disk via steam. it's awkward and involves running a command line, but it is an option.

DRM Free will only work when dishonesty is no longer a human trait, when a "please only install this on your own machines" request on the box is actually honoured without question. DRM lite is the answer. Make it easier to play a genuine copy than a pirate copy and you win over every casual pirate. Steam is one good way to do this. CD checks are another. online registration via 3rd parties not already adept at that sort of thing clearly wasn't a good solution, so has been scrapped.

And finally, calling Fallout 3 DRM Free was more true than people here seemed to realise. I won't go into details, but with a legitimate copy installed via CD there was a fairly simple way to play without the game checking if the disk was in the drive. It didn't involve modifying anything at all, so wasn't piracy. Just an oversight. I dare say it was fixed with a patch though. Interestingly, an old CM (CM01-02 or CM4 if i remember correctly) had a DRM free patch accidentally released by SI. It was replaced by a copy with the disk check a couple of hours later!

[SteveDM]

At the end of the day a lot of pirating isn't done to play the game for free, it's to see if the person is smart enough to crack the copy protection and inflate their own ego.

Yes, a lot of people will take a cracked copy but chances are they weren't ever going to buy the original anyway. I do play a lot of CM, have done for longer than I care to remember (since I had an Amiga, that should give you an idea of how far back it goes) and I would never consider buying a cracked copy.

That said, knowing SI uses Steam, I came looking for this thread simply because Civ 5 being out now and being Steam only, I wanted to see if the opinions of people supported Steam. I don't like it, I don't really want any extra software installed on my machine than is strictly necessary just to play a game. I don't have a fast internet connection and am on limited usage, talking to the Steam servers however often a check is made will use up memory, processor and internet bits that I really don't want to use.

I know that others may disagree and that's their right. I just don't see the point of installing a piece of software to tell you if you can play that other peice of software you really wanted in the first place.

[bearsy2]

Millions smoke...

Brilliantly true.