Jump to content

why is the barca 451 much more solid in defence than the 4231deep?


Recommended Posts

Hi guys,

I am actually trying to create a good 4231 with two holding midfielders and one attacking midfielder.

but am desperate to make my two holding mids act defensively the way I imagine.

I want them to sit a bit deep and to cover for my amc so that he doesnt need to do much defensive work like özil did for germany in africa.

but no matter how I set their cf,closing down mentality and marking system they often act like central midfielders or anything else and try to immediately close down the opposition in their half and this causes huge gaps between my d-line and and midfield.

the most goals I conced are the ones, in which the opposition strikers drops deep, because there is a huge gap and either plays the killer ball, since one of my defenders follow him or he just runs into my third and scores himself.

I often lose the battle in midfield with this system and what also ennoys me is, that my center backs, even I play with a deep d-line and low mentality for them often act very offensively in terms of closing down the opposition striker.

for example if the opposition is playing a flat 442 and one of his striker is dropping very deep and gets the ball he can easily face a 1on1 situation against my last defender, because the other one is way to far away from the running striker since he tried to close him down to quickly and failed to win the ball back.

but in this case, I know that it isnt more a center back problem but much more a midfield problem, since no matter which system I play, as long as I play with the 1+2 shape (1dmc and 2 cm) I am so solid in defence, that I really wonder, why it isnt the case with playing two holdings.

did anyone else make such an experience?

would be nice to get some help.

thx in advance

Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's how I'd set them up:

-Put one of the defensive midfielder as an anchor man with a defensive philosophy

-Put the other defensive midfielder as a ball winning midfielder with a defensive philosophy

If you find there's still a gap lower there mentalities in advanced individual instructions and set your team philosophy to rigid. Also make sure they don't mark tightly as the opposition players may be trying to drag them out of position.

As for your centre backs, if there acting too offensively lower there mentality, that should do the trick. If the opposition striker is dropping deep your defensive midfielders should really be picking him up. In opposition instructions make sure the striker coming deep is closed down or marked tightly by one of your defensive midfielders.

Link to post
Share on other sites

well their mentality is low and as I wrote above, I have really tried the way you describe, but its like it would have something to do with the match engine.

as far as I change into a 1+2 shape my midfield is so solid and I rarely give away a ccc for the opposition, but when I try to play with the 2+1 shape I immediately start to concede.

would be nice to read some other ideas and opinions.

thx anyway for the comment!!!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe it's because when you play 1+2 your keeping a lot more of the possession because you now have 2 central midfield outlets when going forward. Compare to your possession when using 1+2 to your possession when using 2+1 and see if this theory is correct.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I cannot claim to be an expert with the 4-2-3-1 Deep formation but I set out as follows recently for a game against Real Madrid:

Philosophy: Rigid

Strategy: Control

GK - Goalkeeper (Defend)

DR - Full Back (Automatic)

DL - Wing Back (Automatic)

DCr - Central Defender (Defend) [if facing a lone striker (Cover)]

DCl - Limited Defender (Defend) [if facing a lone striker (Stopper)]

DMC - Anchor Man (Defend)

DMC - Deep Lying Playmaker (Support)

AMR - Winger (Attack)

ML - Wide Midfielder (Attack)

AMC - Inside Forward (Support)

ST - Complete Forward (Attack)

It worked reasonably well, I drew the game conceding only to a Xabi Alonso 45 yard screamer! He wasn't closed down well from a free-kick by my two DMCs so I'd definitely be wary of that and perhaps look to use OI next time on players who are dangerous with long shots. Reading your OP however, particularly concerning how you wish your AMC to play, I would suggest giving the following a try:

Philosophy: Rigid

Strategy: Control

Marking: Zonal !!!

Roaming: More Roaming

GK - Goalkeeper (Defend)

DR - Full Back (Automatic)

DL - Wing Back (Automatic)

DCr - Central Defender (Defend) [if facing a lone striker (Cover)]

DCl - Limited Defender (Defend) [if facing a lone striker (Stopper)]

DMC - Anchor Man (Defend)

DMC - Deep Lying Playmaker or Defensive Midfielder (Support)

AMR - Winger (Attack)

AML - Inside Forward (Attack) [or (Support) if you want your ST to be (Attack)]

AMC - Trequartista (Attack) [Assigned as Playmaker]

ST - Complete Forward (Support) [or (Attack) if your AML is (Support)]

Let me know how this works out for you if you try it and also look for tips in some of Crouchaldinho's threads.

Check this thread out too for different defending approaches: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/171637-Shouting-Strategies-Defensive?highlight=Defensive+strategies

Link to post
Share on other sites

I cannot claim to be an expert with the 4-2-3-1 Deep formation but I set out as follows recently for a game against Real Madrid:

Philosophy: Rigid

Strategy: Control

GK - Goalkeeper (Defend)

DR - Full Back (Automatic)

DL - Wing Back (Automatic)

DCr - Central Defender (Defend) [if facing a lone striker (Cover)]

DCl - Limited Defender (Defend) [if facing a lone striker (Stopper)]

DMC - Anchor Man (Defend)

DMC - Deep Lying Playmaker (Support)

AMR - Winger (Attack)

ML - Wide Midfielder (Attack)

AMC - Inside Forward (Support)

ST - Complete Forward (Attack)

It worked reasonably well, I drew the game conceding only to a Xabi Alonso 45 yard screamer! He wasn't closed down well from a free-kick by my two DMCs so I'd definitely be wary of that and perhaps look to use OI next time on players who are dangerous with long shots. Reading your OP however, particularly concerning how you wish your AMC to play, I would suggest giving the following a try:

Philosophy: Rigid

Strategy: Control

Marking: Zonal !!!

Roaming: More Roaming

GK - Goalkeeper (Defend)

DR - Full Back (Automatic)

DL - Wing Back (Automatic)

DCr - Central Defender (Defend) [if facing a lone striker (Cover)]

DCl - Limited Defender (Defend) [if facing a lone striker (Stopper)]

DMC - Anchor Man (Defend)

DMC - Deep Lying Playmaker or Defensive Midfielder (Support)

AMR - Winger (Attack)

AML - Inside Forward (Attack) [or (Support) if you want your ST to be (Attack)]

AMC - Trequartista (Attack) [Assigned as Playmaker]

ST - Complete Forward (Support) [or (Attack) if your AML is (Support)]

Let me know how this works out for you if you try it and also look for tips in some of Crouchaldinho's threads.

Check this thread out too for different defending approaches: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/171637-Shouting-Strategies-Defensive?highlight=Defensive+strategies

hi.

first of all thx for the answer.

well its right, that I want my amc to play as a trequartista running into channels and always looking for the ball like özil.

but what I found out yesterday was, that taking off roaming and increasing his closing down from 0notches to 14-15 has helped me a lot to stabilize my defence, since I have an extra man in midfield when defending.

my defence and my midfield is so strong now, I would have never thought to play so solid with 4231deep.

I first thought it might be an issue of closing down, since the trequartista doesnt need to do any defensive work, but as I tried to play with a trequartista AGAIN, I changed his closing down settings from 0 to 14 notches but it still hadnt really effect the defensive work.

than I finally found out, that the free role/ roam option was responsible for that.

after tickin it off it worked well again.

so I think roam does not only influence the movement of your player, it also tells your players especially offensive ones to always look for room and gapes even when defending, in order to break on in a counter attack.

I hope Ive understood it correctly, if not, would be nice to explain me the effects of roaming and counter attack!!!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Good too see your tactic is working well for you now.

Good luck :thup:

isnt working well, but the defence is now much more solid^^

hope to get the offense work.

how would you set up your wingers in a 4231 deep formation?

I feel like my striker is often let alone, if I let my amc play close to him than there is a gap between him and the 2 holding players.

so am wondering how to solve this problem^^

Link to post
Share on other sites

There isn't just one was how to set up a 4-2-3-1 formation. There are numerous different variaties. Saying that if you feel your striker is isolated maybe lower the tempo so your other attacking players have a chance to get forward, and give your AMC and wingers an attacking philosophy.

Link to post
Share on other sites

isnt working well, but the defence is now much more solid^^

hope to get the offense work.

how would you set up your wingers in a 4231 deep formation?

I feel like my striker is often let alone, if I let my amc play close to him than there is a gap between him and the 2 holding players.

so am wondering how to solve this problem^^

Sounds like you've made progress, and you have a solid foundation in your defence which you can now build on. I've been reading Crouchaldinho's 4-2-3-1 thread (http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/129647-4-2-3-1-Formation) and I'm strongly tempted to advise you to try the following player roles for your front four. If you prefer to increase the closing down of the Trequartista then he almost becomes an Attacking Midfielder and with this role you can assign a Support duty which I personally prefer for the AMC in this formation.

Philosophy: Rigid

Strategy: Control

Marking: Zonal

Roaming: More Roaming

GK - Goalkeeper (Defend)

DR - Full Back (Automatic)

DL - Wing Back (Automatic)

DCr - Central Defender (Defend) [if facing a lone striker (Cover)]

DCl - Limited Defender (Defend) [if facing a lone striker (Stopper)]

DMCr - Anchor Man (Defend)

DMCl - Deep Lying Playmaker (Support) [set to be the Playmaker]

AMR - Winger (Attack)

AML - Inside Forward (Attack)

AMC - Attacking Midfielder or Inside Forward (Support)

ST - Complete Forward (Attack)

Experiment with the Get Ball Forward shout first as I find this useful in getting the ball up to the lone striker. If you are having possession but not creating too many chances then experiment with the Pass Into Space shout next. If playing against a flat 4-4-2 formation for example you have a numerical advantage through the middle and therefore the Exploit The Middle shout is a good option, particularly when used in conjunction with Play Wider to open up holes in the opposition by stretching the defenders wide.

Also try swapping the DLP to the DMCr position and see if this gives you any noticeable improvement. I think it might be better to have an inside, forward passing option to the AMC and an outside one to the Winger rather than two inside ones the the AMC and the Inside Forward. Just a final thought!

Link to post
Share on other sites

As someone who use the three man midfield extensively (although I use three CMs rather than 2+1 or 1+2 system) I think the answer is pretty simple and quite obvious. The 1+2 system or even a 3 CM system is defensively more solid than a 2+1 system simply because you have three man defending in the former, but only two in the latter. How is your 4-2-3-1 any different from a 4-4-2, defensively? Perhaps even worse if your wingers don't track back like the wide-midfielders in 4-4-2 do.

You wanted a Ozil position, which doesn't do much defensive work, and that's what you got. So you have to live with the fact that you'll only have two defensive players holding the fort. You want more solid defense, you'll need to tell your attacking midfielders to track back.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi guys,

but in this case, I know that it isnt more a center back problem but much more a midfield problem, since no matter which system I play, as long as I play with the 1+2 shape (1dmc and 2 cm) I am so solid in defence, that I really wonder, why it isnt the case with playing two holdings.

Perhaps because there is a guy in the middle (the DM) covering the space the MCs leave behind from closing down? While also screening both CBs?

To make the 4-2-3-1 work, you need to give the AMC some defensive responsibility, as he's going to have to cover space left by the deep midfielders. You need to create a triangle in the middle of the park.

SFraser made a thread before comparing the 4-2-3-1 and the 4-1-2-3 Systems iirc, I'd have a read, if you can find it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The important thing to understand about the "Barca" 4-5-1 and the 4-2-3-1 in terms of defensive strength is that the "Barca" 4-5-1 is a "2+1" system using the centrebacks and DM. The 4-2-3-1 is a "2+1" system using the DM's + MC/AMC. When defending there is little point dropping a striker into the AMC position if you are not going to use him at all. He doesn't have to play like Roy Keane when defending, but his positional function as almost a "Makalele" type player at the head of a dual DM + other triangle is crucial.

Where the Barca 4-5-1 has a player in the hole between defence and midfield, the 4-2-3-1 drops the midfielders much deeper and employs a holding player infront of the DM's. The fundamental principle of the holding player is the same but the difference is that it is the AMC in the 4-2-3-1 and not the DM. This provides much greater defence in depth.

Describing the actual defensive benefits of the 4-2-3-1 is difficult but I will try to do so here, and try to keep it short and simple.

The basic principle is the same one underlying the Barca 4-5-1 with it's sole holding midfielder. This principle is the defensive strength of the 2+1 triangle shape formed by the Centrebacks and Holding Midfielder. The Holding Midfielder not only occupies a key space infront of the Centrebacks, but he also holds a position that forms a very strong defensive shape. This is the "defensive triangle" that is narrow at the top and wider towards the base, effectively forcing the opponents attacks into wider areas as they get further forward so long as the players hold their positions.

      DM

  CB    CB     

The 4-2-3-1 also does this, but higher up the pitch.

      AM

  DM    DM     

The major benefit this gives to the 4-2-3-1 is that when play is channelled wide, the midfield system can move across to that flank and press the ball with numbers and depth. A winger presses from high, a fullback presses from deep, while a DM and AM press from the side like a small wall. Four players converge on the ball from all directions. At the same time the other DM moves across as well, and simply by keeping in the same rough shape with his midfield teammates as before he automatically takes up the Holding position in the hole ahead of the Centrebacks. The Barca 4-5-1 cannot do this without putting a more attacking minded midfielder into a key defensive position.

Opponent starts building attack.

  ball    WF
  AM   

DM    DM 

CB    CB   FB  

4-2-3-1 forces ball wide and presses ball with numbers.

          WF
     AM   ball

  DM    DM FB

CB    CB     

You can see in these diagrams that the AMC doesn't have to do much, but his role in the entire defensive system is utterly crucial. Without the AMC forming the "apex" of the triangle that forces players towards the flanks the system will simply not function. With the "apex" role played properly the 4-2-3-1 is arguably the most defensively sound system around at the minute. However you need to understand why, and understanding the particular function of the 4-2-3-1 I explained above is a massive step forward in understanding this formation on defence, in my opinion.

There are very few "big teams" that don't employ this defensive principle in some form. Drop a striker or AMC just ahead of the midfield and force the opponent wide, then compress the flanks with numbers at pace to try to win the ball back while retaining a player in the "holding" position ahead of the centrebacks. Liverpool under Benitez are one of the more famous and obvious examples, but so are Spain and Manchester United. It is highly effective as at marries both shape and control of key space with intense pressing and great opportunities to isolate players near the touchline and win the ball back early, not to mention it's counter-attacking potential. It's attacking forms have been the source of much experimentation recently and have produced some highly interesting attacking systems, for example Spains lopsided 4-2-3-1 that is almost a 4-4-2 when viewed diagonally, or Brazils strange 4-2-3-1/box hybrid that evolved along similar principles, and likewise Manchester United with their tucking in winger/inside forward and highly attacking lone fullback shape that can be argued to be a W-M on attack with four through the middle, releasing Paul Scholes from the grasp of opposition three man midfields.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...
The important thing to understand about the "Barca" 4-5-1 and the 4-2-3-1 in terms of defensive strength is that the "Barca" 4-5-1 is a "2+1" system using the centrebacks and DM. The 4-2-3-1 is a "2+1" system using the DM's + MC/AMC. When defending there is little point dropping a striker into the AMC position if you are not going to use him at all. He doesn't have to play like Roy Keane when defending, but his positional function as almost a "Makalele" type player at the head of a dual DM + other triangle is crucial.

Where the Barca 4-5-1 has a player in the hole between defence and midfield, the 4-2-3-1 drops the midfielders much deeper and employs a holding player infront of the DM's. The fundamental principle of the holding player is the same but the difference is that it is the AMC in the 4-2-3-1 and not the DM. This provides much greater defence in depth.

Describing the actual defensive benefits of the 4-2-3-1 is difficult but I will try to do so here, and try to keep it short and simple.

The basic principle is the same one underlying the Barca 4-5-1 with it's sole holding midfielder. This principle is the defensive strength of the 2+1 triangle shape formed by the Centrebacks and Holding Midfielder. The Holding Midfielder not only occupies a key space infront of the Centrebacks, but he also holds a position that forms a very strong defensive shape. This is the "defensive triangle" that is narrow at the top and wider towards the base, effectively forcing the opponents attacks into wider areas as they get further forward so long as the players hold their positions.

      DM

  CB    CB     

The 4-2-3-1 also does this, but higher up the pitch.

      AM

  DM    DM     

The major benefit this gives to the 4-2-3-1 is that when play is channelled wide, the midfield system can move across to that flank and press the ball with numbers and depth. A winger presses from high, a fullback presses from deep, while a DM and AM press from the side like a small wall. Four players converge on the ball from all directions. At the same time the other DM moves across as well, and simply by keeping in the same rough shape with his midfield teammates as before he automatically takes up the Holding position in the hole ahead of the Centrebacks. The Barca 4-5-1 cannot do this without putting a more attacking minded midfielder into a key defensive position.

Opponent starts building attack.

  ball    WF
  AM   

DM    DM 

CB    CB   FB  

4-2-3-1 forces ball wide and presses ball with numbers.

          WF
     AM   ball

  DM    DM FB

CB    CB     

You can see in these diagrams that the AMC doesn't have to do much, but his role in the entire defensive system is utterly crucial. Without the AMC forming the "apex" of the triangle that forces players towards the flanks the system will simply not function. With the "apex" role played properly the 4-2-3-1 is arguably the most defensively sound system around at the minute. However you need to understand why, and understanding the particular function of the 4-2-3-1 I explained above is a massive step forward in understanding this formation on defence, in my opinion.

There are very few "big teams" that don't employ this defensive principle in some form. Drop a striker or AMC just ahead of the midfield and force the opponent wide, then compress the flanks with numbers at pace to try to win the ball back while retaining a player in the "holding" position ahead of the centrebacks. Liverpool under Benitez are one of the more famous and obvious examples, but so are Spain and Manchester United. It is highly effective as at marries both shape and control of key space with intense pressing and great opportunities to isolate players near the touchline and win the ball back early, not to mention it's counter-attacking potential. It's attacking forms have been the source of much experimentation recently and have produced some highly interesting attacking systems, for example Spains lopsided 4-2-3-1 that is almost a 4-4-2 when viewed diagonally, or Brazils strange 4-2-3-1/box hybrid that evolved along similar principles, and likewise Manchester United with their tucking in winger/inside forward and highly attacking lone fullback shape that can be argued to be a W-M on attack with four through the middle, releasing Paul Scholes from the grasp of opposition three man midfields.

nicely explained.. i am very keen in figuring out the actual setting (ie mentality and closing down etc) that will enable us to replicate both system of 4-5-1 and 4-2-3-1 in the game...

i tried a 4-2-3-1 with the 2 in CM instead of DM and the 3 with 1 behind the striker and 2 out wide instead of 3 CAM.. the result is that i generate a high possession up front but there is a lack of cutting edge in the final ball to set up the striker or the other 3 attacking players.. i've tried the 2 wide AML and AMR on wingers, defensive wingers, and inside forward but did not have much success and have given up on it and instead when with a high 4-3-3 with 2 WF flanking berbatov when i use this formation.. in the 4-3-3, berbatov is a deep-lying forward with low mentality to allow him to drop deep to spread the play to the WF.. in the 4-2-3-1 i attempted an advanced forward role for rooney but he could not set up the play well enough, often dropping deep and crowding out the midfield.. if he was told to stay further up, he gets isolated and the final ball doesnt reach him most of the time and i quite often end up passing back to the 2 CM who sometimes losses the ball and i would end up conceding a goal..

Link to post
Share on other sites

just a small suggestion: set your defensive line higher up the pitch. You complain about a hole between midfield and defense, well by upping your DL you will actually make the gap a whole lot smaller. Dropping deep if you have already have a gap is just widening it....

as there already is a natural hole between dm and am, you should really increase the dl until you see the formation is tighter and operates more as a unit

Link to post
Share on other sites

i tried a 4-2-3-1 with the 2 in CM instead of DM and the 3 with 1 behind the striker and 2 out wide instead of 3 CAM.. the result is that i generate a high possession up front but there is a lack of cutting edge in the final ball to set up the striker or the other 3 attacking players.. i've tried the 2 wide AML and AMR on wingers, defensive wingers, and inside forward but did not have much success and have given up on it and instead when with a high 4-3-3 with 2 WF flanking berbatov when i use this formation.. in the 4-3-3, berbatov is a deep-lying forward with low mentality to allow him to drop deep to spread the play to the WF.. in the 4-2-3-1 i attempted an advanced forward role for rooney but he could not set up the play well enough, often dropping deep and crowding out the midfield.. if he was told to stay further up, he gets isolated and the final ball doesnt reach him most of the time and i quite often end up passing back to the 2 CM who sometimes losses the ball and i would end up conceding a goal..

I play the 4-2-3-1 with Inside Forwards (attack roles) on the wings, increase Through Passing to Often, try to have players with high passing, creativity and teamwork attributes which will results in a lot of good assists. IF having Finishing and Composure also helps them win the one-on-one situations they will find themselves in because of the Cut Inside instruction. Acceleration, Pace and Dribbling will make them pass through full-backs and DCs easily, but Off the Ball is also required so you would minimize the risk for offside. The AM in my opinion and my experience should be an Attacking Midfielder (attack role) with very similar instructions as the IF and will play also similar. I use a Complete Forward support role for creating space for the 3 players, holding up the ball, winning headers, making assists (passing+creativity) and maybe Long Shots if he is good at (Sometimes).

If you read and understand what SFraser wrote, the AM is very important defensively also so having Marking and Tackling around 10 and giving them Normal Tackling and Tight Marking Instructions also helps in my experience.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I play the 4-2-3-1 with Inside Forwards (attack roles) on the wings, increase Through Passing to Often, try to have players with high passing, creativity and teamwork attributes which will results in a lot of good assists. IF having Finishing and Composure also helps them win the one-on-one situations they will find themselves in because of the Cut Inside instruction. Acceleration, Pace and Dribbling will make them pass through full-backs and DCs easily, but Off the Ball is also required so you would minimize the risk for offside. The AM in my opinion and my experience should be an Attacking Midfielder (attack role) with very similar instructions as the IF and will play also similar. I use a Complete Forward support role for creating space for the 3 players, holding up the ball, winning headers, making assists (passing+creativity) and maybe Long Shots if he is good at (Sometimes).

If you read and understand what SFraser wrote, the AM is very important defensively also so having Marking and Tackling around 10 and giving them Normal Tackling and Tight Marking Instructions also helps in my experience.

alright, i'll give it a go.. thanks!

Link to post
Share on other sites

alright, i'll give it a go.. thanks!

AMR and AML as Inside Forwards (attack role) and change Long Shots to Rarely and Through Balls to Often, AMC as Attacking Midfielder (attack role) Long Shots to Rarely (if Long Shots attribute 15+, Sometimes) and Crossing to Rarely, STC as Complete Forward (support role) Long Shots and Crossing Rarely and No Tight Marking.

I set my other players as follow:

GK - Goalkeeper (defend)

DR and DL - Wing Backs (automatic)

DCs - Defenders (defend) - No Tight Marking

DMCR - Defensive Midfielder (defend) + Hard Tackling

DMCL - Deep-Lying Midfielder (support) + Tight Marking on and Hard Tackling

All players Long Shots rarely and everyone excepts AMR and AML to Crossing Rarely.

Team Instructions:

Short Passing

Creative Freedom depends on the team and players

Closing Down depends on home/away games and opponents

Default Tackling

Zonal Marking

Dril Crossing (and I tend to have all-in-one strikers; pacey, big, strong etc.; which can hit the ball with the head and plus run onto the ball because of the Through Balls settings of the attacking 3 AML, AMC, AMR)

More Roaming

Normal Defensive line

Wide With (+4 notches from normal)

Slow Tempo (-4 notches from normal)

Normal Time Wasting

Counter-Attacks Yes

Hope I will be helpful!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...