4-2-3-1 Super_Defense

[Elhan]

Vitoco77,

Using the wingers as forwards is an interesting idea, how does it work defensively though? do they still track back and mark? If you can, send me a private message with your tweak, I'd be interested to have a look at it.

QiwNdutz and Kambing Conge,

Thanks for trying it out, I'm glad it's working well for you.

[vitoco77]

I have played only few games. Won them all so far and let in 3 goals only...

[vitoco77]

Just played my last game away vs Spurs, as i am Pool. i would like to say how you use your shout does gibve you very different result. I tested it with different trial. 1st game I lost 1-0. 2nd I won 2-0....

[vitoco77]

i think the defence has become worse....i don't remember when I concede 5 goals, but in the samw game i scored 8....away vs bolton.

[Elhan]

i think the defence has become worse....i don't remember when I concede 5 goals, but in the samw game i scored 8....away vs bolton.

That's probably because the wingers no longer do much defending. Try and tell your left and right striker to specific mark the fullbacks, that will overide the rest of the instructions and make them track back like they used to when they were played like wingers in the original tactic.

[vitoco77]

That's probably because the wingers no longer do much defending. Try and tell your left and right striker to specific mark the fullbacks, that will overide the rest of the instructions and make them track back like they used to when they were played like wingers in the original tactic.

thanks....I manmark them, it is much more work but it works....played just now away vs the 3rd place Newcastle. By the end of the game, their both wingbacks have 6 and 5.8

[Wes_Coulam]

Elhan, Whats the difference between V1 & V2 ? As i normally stick with V1 and then if i dont score jump to V2 and depending on if it looks like im dominating or not ill switch back to V1? How are you using the versions?

[Elhan]

Elhan, Whats the difference between V1 & V2 ? As i normally stick with V1 and then if i dont score jump to V2 and depending on if it looks like im dominating or not ill switch back to V1? How are you using the versions?

The V2 is more direct, with a faster tempo, and exploits the flanks more. You get less possession and less control of the game but sometimes that directness helps to unlock defenses. I am using it more or less like you described.

[Wes_Coulam]

Just a Progress Update At Half way Point through my season, the tactic has really hit the ground running this year, had some familiarity level problems at first but put it on very high and the players have settled into it (due to me using it all last year).

I'm predicted 14th this year and here's my progress.

Pld 19 Won 9 Drn 5 Lost 5 For 35 Ag 23 Gd +12 Pts 32 , Currently 5th in the league so could be the first year i venture into europe having problems with my star striker he wont sign a new contract and his min fee release is 6.25 Mill & Juventus are intrested so second half of the season could be interesting but my team dont know the tactic fluidly so i see us getting stronger aswell.

Only signed 8 players this season and only 1/2 are first teamers.

Just had a brilliant goalless draw away to Man United which was awesome. Immense Tactic Elhan if i aint said it before.

Currently on a ten match unbeaten run with 8 wins & 2 Draws.

[QiwNdutz]

QiwNdutz and Kambing Conge,

Thanks for trying it out, I'm glad it's working well for you.

Oops I forgot something, the tackling settings seems to hard for my Inter player (highly aggresive and determined players) and they took too many cards.

Don't know if it's the "known bug" in this version either because there seems no difference when I set all players tackling to easy.

Aside from the cards problem, the tactic still works great.

Oh one more thing, when it comes to bad weather (December/January - Snow etc.) the tactic seems stuck, so I'll change everyone's passing to direct like the IF does.

[Elhan]

You can use the V2 for really bad weather, the passing is quite direct for most players. The tackling you can lower to normal if you have players with too much aggression, like you said.

[novicehack]

based on Qiwndutz and Kambing Conge opinions, I think I will try this tactic with my Arsenal. Since the tactic needs 2 DM, and currently Arsenal only have one natural DM in Song, how would u suggest me to have the lineup?

Thanks.

[Elhan]

based on Qiwndutz and Kambing Conge opinions, I think I will try this tactic with my Arsenal. Since the tactic needs 2 DM, and currently Arsenal only have one natural DM in Song, how would u suggest me to have the lineup?

Thanks.

Denilson can play in the right DM position as well, and Djuru will perform adequately in the left DM position. In easy games I would put Arshavin -> AML, Nasri -> AMC, Vela->AMR, and Fabregas in the right DM position. In difficult games I would play with two defensively solid DMs, like Denilson/Song/Djuru, and play Fabregas as AMC. You are right however, Arsenal are a bit short on quality DMs.

[novicehack]

Denilson can play in the right DM position as well, and Djuru will perform adequately in the left DM position. In easy games I would put Arshavin -> AML, Nasri -> AMC, Vela->AMR, and Fabregas in the right DM position. In difficult games I would play with two defensively solid DMs, like Denilson/Song/Djuru, and play Fabregas as AMC. You are right however, Arsenal are a bit short on quality DMs.

I dont know, Im pretty unsure about Denilson ability as a DM since he lacks physical presence to be a wall in front of the defense and technical qualities to be Xabi-like DM. But looking at ur result with Arsenal without signing new players, I think he is not so bad after all.

thanks for the suggestion

[Elhan]

Agreed, he isn't great for sure, but if you don't intend to sign anyone you'll need him. If you do intend to make some new signings I would definately invest into a quality DM, it is probably Arenal's weakest point.

[Paddy_Fowler]

Appears to be a very solid tactic Elhan.

I have been playing around with tactics for a few weeks now - using Mr Houghs 2011 tactic (didn't work well with my team TBH), and Keybone's 4-1-2-2-1 tactic but couldn't find a happy medium.

I think your V1 and V2 may just be what i've been looking for.

In the first game away to Wigan (i'm Liverpool) - with the 4-1-2-2-1 the game finished 0-0. Tested it again with your V1 - first half was 0-0. Changed to V2 at half time - went 2-0 up - then with 20 mins to go when they started coming more into it and "giving themselves more options in attack" i changed back to V1 and eventually scored a third to win 3-0.

Will test it for the next while now - but so far looking at possession stats, CCC's etc it really does look good.

Have to agree also that it's nice to watch some of the build up play.... some nice movement etc.

[QiwNdutz]

You can use the V2 for really bad weather, the passing is quite direct for most players. The tackling you can lower to normal if you have players with too much aggression, like you said.

Hi, it's me again.

Just tried your tactic V2 and it didn't work as good as the V1.

ST mentality too far away from the rest of the team and isolated him from build up play.

May I know how the V2 works actually? As I had 2 great poacher in Milito and Eto'o and it just didn't work.

I prefer V1 (with Man Utd) and V1 mirrored (with Inter).

Beat Barcelona (minus the injured Messi) 2-1 in Champions League Final with V1, Milito scored both goals.

[Elhan]

In V2 the striker isn't supposed to take part in the build up, just constantly try to break the offside trap and move wide to overload the fullbacks. The fact that the passing is more direct means that a lot of passes just bypass the entire midfield so there is not so much need for the striker to take part in the build up. The mentality gap is there because it draws the oppositions midfield way out of position and it creates a lot of space in front of their defense. In some games and against some formations the striker can indeed become a bit isolated - you can try and decrease his mentality by 2 notches or just stick with the V1 and only try the V2 if things aren't working out for you or for very bad weather conditions.

[matti7777]

I just cant get my striker to perform well with this tatic. I play a newgen with very good attributes (pace 18 acceleration 19 finnishing 14 longshot 15) on that position. He gets many clear cut chances but repeatdely shot straight on the goalie. Any suggestions on what I can tweak?

[Elhan]

I just cant get my striker to perform well with this tatic. I play a newgen with very good attributes (pace 18 acceleration 19 finnishing 14 longshot 15) on that position. He gets many clear cut chances but repeatdely shot straight on the goalie. Any suggestions on what I can tweak?

It has been suggested teaching your striker the "shoots with power" PPM. Beyond making sure the tactic consistantly creates CCCs, I really don't know what more I can do to make him score - I have the same problem with my wingers and striker sometimes, they just shoot straight at the goalie when they go one on one. Perhaps it is just how the match engine works, I am currently looking into it but I haven't made up my mind on the matter yet. If I do conclude that this is the case, I will make a third version wich is much more focused on attacking down the flanks. Otherwise I will continue to work on my current project wich is to make a version that aims at controlling possesion and pressing instead of playing on the counter. We'll see what happens, and I am sorry I can't help more at present.

[madmike]

Hi Elhan

Just wondering, do you set your wingers to man mark opposing full backs every game or just sometimes??

Also is this setting detrimental to your attacking play?

[Elhan]

It's not very detrimental to the attack, but nowadays my squad is quite good and I almost never do it. Only if I come up against a team with a really world class fullback, or if I play against a very good team, leading the score, and they are trying to overload the box and get fullbacks to the byline.

[boingboing]

Never been really able to get into FM11 so far , tried a few tactics with the Mighty West Brom but just coulden't seem to get anything decent going .

So today I decided to try 1 last tactic before giving up untill the next patch. Heres how I approached my new game Using this tactic.

I looked through my West Brom squad and filtered out any players who diden't Have the following attributes ( minimum 12 in each ), so I could decide who to keep :-

Fullbacks - Tackling, Marking, Anticipation, Jumping, Heading, Stamina, Pace, Positioning

Central Defenders - Tackling, Marking, Anticipation, Jumping, Heading, Pace, Positioning, Determination

Defensive Midfielders - Work Rate, Team work, Pace, Positioning, Passing, Marking, Tackling, Strength, Jumping, Heading

Wingers - Crossing, Dribbling, Finishing, First Touch, Pace, Flair, Technique

Strikers - Crossing, Dribbling, Finishing, Off the Ball, Composure, Pace, Flair, Technique, Anticipation.

When I was finished the only players I kept were Marek Cech (back up) , Gabriel Tamas , and Steven Reid oh and dodgy Scott Carson. I then started wheeler Dealing.

I let my Assistant manager deal with The match preperation and thought to myself if we lose the first 5 games while there gelling then so be it.

I also followed Wolfsongs Team Talk guide , to the letter.

Anyways to cut it short I can't beleive the start that I have made with this tactic . this is the Table after 6 games.

The Only Deafeat was at West Ham where we easily deserved something , I also Beat Arsenal

Anyways ill let you know how it all ends up , obviously iv'e now put the kiss of death on it.

But i'm actually starting to enjoy FM11 for the first time , so thank you Elhan.

[Elhan]

Best of luck with it,but be prepared for a mediocre first half of the season, seeing how you made so many new signings. Match preparation I'd leave it on team blend untill the players develop a good level of understanding, then leave it on defending set pieces. WWFan's guide to match preparation* is generally the most reasonable way to handle it, however I always leave it on defending set pieces because I hate conceding and set pieces are the main threat to your defense.

* here's the link in case you wonder http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/242575-How-to-Play-FM-A-(Very)-Short-Guide-to-Match-Preparation-Strategies-and-Motivation?highlight=match+preparation+guide

[red rainbow]

Well, mate, a very interesting tactic , I'm gonna test it in my game as Corinthian Casuals in 8th English division.... I know my players' very poor quality could be a problem, but maybe I could "surprise the AI" of my opposite teams.... Any suggestion for very lower leagues' teams ?

[Elhan]

Well, mate, a very interesting tactic , I'm gonna test it in my game as Corinthian Casuals in 8th English division.... I know my players' very poor quality could be a problem, but maybe I could "surprise the AI" of my opposite teams.... Any suggestion for very lower leagues' teams ?

The tactic doesn't really require exotic qualities from your players, the main problem I you might have with very low leagues is finding players suitable for the inside forward/winger position. In truth I haven't played with a really low league team in FM '11 yet, so that might not be too accurate. In any case, I hope you have as much fun with it as I had trying to set all the sliders and whatnot.

[supersplash]

I really dont understand why this tactic isnt getting more heat. It is really wonderful for me. In my atl madrid game i was doing very well (won euro cup, 2nd in the league and won the spanish cup). Was doing very well in the 2nd season as well when a very struggling Inter approached me with 45 million and a contract. So i moved to inter who was sitting in 14th after 9 matches. Currently i've moved them up to 2nd but Milan are still 7 points ahead. Such a solid tactic and oh my god people BUY MARCO REUS for that AML position!

[snowbird10]

Best tactic I have used so far, great work

[Zeffke888]

I have a question about the wingers on their opposite side. I have wingers who have a very good right foot, and a good left foot... are they ok to play on the right as well? Or is it only ok to play them at the opposite side of the best foot to cut inside?

[Elhan]

I have a question about the wingers on their opposite side. I have wingers who have a very good right foot, and a good left foot... are they ok to play on the right as well? Or is it only ok to play them at the opposite side of the best foot to cut inside?

Generally, players who can use both their feet are the best choice. If one foot is stronger than the other, play them on the side of their weaker foot, that way their passes will connect better with the striker and AMC and it will help the build up play. If they can use both feet well, one option is to play them on whatever side you want but tell them to swap positions in game - that way they will be less predictable. But generally try and play them on the side of their weaker foot and train them to play in both AML/R positions.

[QiwNdutz]

In V2 the striker isn't supposed to take part in the build up, just constantly try to break the offside trap and move wide to overload the fullbacks. The fact that the passing is more direct means that a lot of passes just bypass the entire midfield so there is not so much need for the striker to take part in the build up. The mentality gap is there because it draws the oppositions midfield way out of position and it creates a lot of space in front of their defense. In some games and against some formations the striker can indeed become a bit isolated - you can try and decrease his mentality by 2 notches or just stick with the V1 and only try the V2 if things aren't working out for you or for very bad weather conditions.

Thanks, Elhan. I'll try to tinker with my ST PI now that I know how V2 works.

Generally, players who can use both their feet are the best choice. If one foot is stronger than the other, play them on the side of their weaker foot, that way their passes will connect better with the striker and AMC and it will help the build up play. If they can use both feet well, one option is to play them on whatever side you want but tell them to swap positions in game - that way they will be less predictable. But generally try and play them on the side of their weaker foot and train them to play in both AML/R positions.

I use Nani (very good right foot & good left foot) on AMR and he's doing fine.

Maybe because he has "cuts inside" PPM?

No matter where I put him he always cuts inside, but he still scored with his right foot..

[vitoco77]

try it out with nancy, a middle or small team in France:

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/2519/img0512fo.jpg

Now finally, discovered 'a cheat' how to buy buyers for free and keep them having a low bill!!!!

[vitoco77]

who are you?! OM?!?!?!

[LukazTMR]

Vitoco you use v1 or v2?

[vitoco77]

V2 edited...i mixed V2 with 2010 mr.hough

[Elhan]

Vitoco you use v1 or v2?

In my opinion, it's best to mix them up a bit to prevent your team from becoming too predictable. I generally tend to start with V1 and switch to V2 if things aren't going well. V2 might also be better with really heavy rain and sometimes against smaller teams.

[LukazTMR]

Thank Elhan,i'm using the v2 in Grêmio ( Brazil)

Good results so far...

[Jonny2J]

Thanks very much for the effort you've put into this, I've been trying to build a similar tactic for a while now.

At the moment with my Newcastle team using your tactic, I'm having a mixed bag of results.

I finished a respectable 12th in my first season in the Premier League, then in my second season I was 5th by Christmas time. However I now haven't won for 15 games, and I'm dropping down the league at an alarming rate.

Any ideas on what to look at with regards to my players?

[Elhan]

The player attributes etc are described in the original post. Loosing streaks are not easy to turn around, I would look into trying another version or another tactic altogether for a while. The second season shouldn't be that much of a problem unless you made too many signings or you didn't sign the proper players...I won three trophies in my second season with Wolves if I remember well so it should be no problem. It's just really hard to turn things around once morale drops, so when you get 3-4 games in a row where you don't play well and don't create chances try switching from V1 to V2 for example or try another tactic altogether. Other than that, perhaps have a deeper look into your tamtalks and specific man management because they play a very important role in FM '11.

[boingboing]

Thanks very much for the effort you've put into this, I've been trying to build a similar tactic for a while now.

At the moment with my Newcastle team using your tactic, I'm having a mixed bag of results.

I finished a respectable 12th in my first season in the Premier League, then in my second season I was 5th by Christmas time. However I now haven't won for 15 games, and I'm dropping down the league at an alarming rate.

Any ideas on what to look at with regards to my players?

When your moral hits a low point use ' No Pressure ' / 'Pessure is off ' team talk pre game and ' for the fans' half time

[Ron_Burgundy]

Elhan!

It looks as though you have created the tactic I was desperately trying to make.

I went close in my first season with a 442 (but with AML/R) but I knew it wasn't sound defensively sound enough. I am going to give your tactic a run until Christmas (3 games into my second season) and hopefully I will see some of your success. I have just had a very random off season so my first XI will be something like:

GK: Akinfeev

RB: Sagna

DCr: Zapata

DCl: Vermalen

DMl: Song/Makoun

DMr: Fabregas/Wilshere

AMR: Van Persie/Hazard

AML: Arshavin/Nasri/Walcott

AMC: Arshavin/Hazard

ST: Tevez/RvP/Lukaku/Chamakh

I will let you know how I get on. And thanks for a great opening post and explanations.

[Elhan]

In all fairness, your squad is strong enough to win the PL with almost any tactic you play. Thanks for giving it a go and I hope you have fun with it. Two things I'd like to note though. Firstly, if you made a lot of signings over the summer the tactic will not perform at its best untill after christmass. It has hapened to me with all teams I played, when I made lots of signings in my second year, so it can't be a coincidence. Secondly, Fabregas/Wilshere as DMr might not be strong enough defensively in very hard away games. Also, they are pretty bad in the air so you might look into changing their instructions for defending corners. Personaly, I also trained Fabregas to play as AMC to have an extra option there, so you could try that too.

[Old_Bootlace]

Hi Elhan,

Have some results for your tactic. Nice work, was what I was hoping for when I tried gluing a few 4-2-2-2 tactics together.

This is for version 10.3 as I am waiting for the transfer issue to be fixed; so these results may not be completely relevant.

Played as Liverpool using only V2 and nothing else. 2 main transfers at start of season - Hazard for Babel; Veloso for his left foot crossing ability.

EPL

86 points (1st place)

Won 27 Drawn 5 Lost 6

Goals For - 87

Goals Against - 26

Big 6 results

Man United - 2-1 home; 0-1 away; 0-1 away

Chelsea - 1-0 away; 0-2 home

Aresenal - 1-1 away; 6-1 home

Manchester City - 1-0 home; 1-2 away

Tottenham - 1-1 away; 1-2 away; 0-1 home

Played 12 - Won 4 Drawn 2 Loss 6

Cup results - Champions League - semi's out to Atletico Madrid on away goals (3-3 home; 1-1 away their extra time winner); notable effort beating Barcelona 4-2 aggregate (0-2 loss away; 4-0 win home); FA Cup out to Manchester United 0-1; League Cup out to Tottenham 0-1.

Observations:

Compared to your Arsenal V1 results that's +16 more goals but +14 more conceded.

30 of the 87 goals in the EPL came from far post crosses; approx. 30 goals from the wings; 11 goals from the strikers

Seems like when your team is strong or you are playing at home (and its raining!) V2 works well; does not work so well against the bigger boys as their defences are strong enough to negate the hit and run counters and the far crosses.

Mental attributes were more important than speed or technical ability for wingers. In 10.3 the pacey wingers did not attack the goal but woud veer away from the box to the byline to cross or pass making them less useful. Don't remember crosses into the box being particularly helpful with only one striker.

Wingers and AMC sometimes have a bad habit of running across the face of the penalty box. I guess the high creativity settings let them do this. This did not drag players out of position much.

It was difficult for the striker to score so maybe it is better to reduce his attacking settings for V2 so he acts more like a false 9 like in V1?

Getting an AMC who likes to provide short passes from in front of the box so that the wingers and striker can run onto the ball and shoot. Had great success with Aquilani when he was fit. He had 8 assists in 8 games in the EPL and was constantly trying little through balls which was really unlocking the defense. No other player I tried in the AMC slot played quite as neat. Nothing in his stats jumps out as to why he should play like this so am unsure of the requirements. Maybe low physical; good mental and passing. For example Steven Gerrard (who has better stats in everything by comparison) doesn't have such neat touch. Their PPMs are very similar other than Gerrard likes to get forward. Finding a Xavi AMC would have really improved the goal count I think.

Now time to use V1 and V2 together for even better results

Cheers.

[danis]

why cant see the simple roles of each player?(like aml is it winger or inside forward),it only saw me the advanced option

[Elhan]

Thanks for the update, glad it worked out well for you. The V2 is indeed a risky strategy in very tough games simply because you don't keep the ball as well as you do with V1 and for that reason your defense is under considerably more pressure. It's better used against weaker teams and in very bad weather conditions like you mentioned. Fabregas worked really well as AMC for me, and also Axel Witsel (he was also really great as AML). I also agree with most of your other observations. I will probably release either a new version or an improved V2 when the next patch comes.

[danis]

am i the only who dont see the simply roles of each player(such as anchor man or defensive midfield or deep lyuing playmaker for the dmc ,poacher or deep lying forward for the striker ...etc...).i use the original version super defence v1).can anyone help me?

[Elhan]

am i the only who dont see the simply roles of each player(such as anchor man or defensive midfield or deep lyuing playmaker for the dmc ,poacher or deep lying forward for the striker ...etc...).i use the original version super defence v1).can anyone help me?

I am not sure I understand what you mean exactly, as far as the players role's and requirements I went through that in the original post. For V1 it's more or less like this:

GK - standard GK

DL - wing back/attack

DCl - DC/cover

DCr - DC/stopper

DR - Fullback/defend

DMl - anchor man

DMr - DM/support

AML/R - inside forward/attack

AMC - attacking midfielder/attack

ST - complete forward/support

Again, I am not sure I really understand your question, but the original post is quite detailed and I would encourage you to read it thoroughly if you haven't already.

[danis]

ok.now i understand..because i was searching for simple roles of each players and i couldnt find ...why is it uses the sliders fully?is it created a long time ago?can someone create the same tacting with the siomple roles for each player?and is there any problem in the game if we use this tactic in the 11.1. version of fm?i dont want to see any crashes in my game ....

[Elhan]

ok.now i understand..because i was searching for simple roles of each players and i couldnt find ...why is it uses the sliders fully?is it created a long time ago?can someone create the same tacting with the siomple roles for each player?and is there any problem in the game if we use this tactic in the 11.1. version of fm?i dont want to see any crashes in my game ....

You can use it in FM 11.1, this is the patch it was created for. For the player roles you can check the original post in the "Players You Need" section. The reason everything is ticked is because it was the only way to make it work exactly as I intended. The tactics creator is a great tool but it has it's limitations, there are things you simply cannot do with it. I also use my own mentality framework so it has to be all custom from there on in order to get it working properly. Again, I strongly advise reading the original post and especially the "Stuff You Must Do Before Matches" part, don't expect good results if you don't understand how to use it.

[Ron_Burgundy]

In all fairness, your squad is strong enough to win the PL with almost any tactic you play. Thanks for giving it a go and I hope you have fun with it. Two things I'd like to note though. Firstly, if you made a lot of signings over the summer the tactic will not perform at its best untill after christmass. It has hapened to me with all teams I played, when I made lots of signings in my second year, so it can't be a coincidence. Secondly, Fabregas/Wilshere as DMr might not be strong enough defensively in very hard away games. Also, they are pretty bad in the air so you might look into changing their instructions for defending corners. Personaly, I also trained Fabregas to play as AMC to have an extra option there, so you could try that too.

Hi Elhan,

Thanks for the response. And I agree with you on the Fabregas/Wilshere problems at playing in the DM role. I am already retraining Cesc to play at AM so might look at getting a third DM to provide cover there.

Anyways, thanks for coming back to me, I will hopefully get on very well.

Oh, and I only signed Tevez and Zapata this summer so hopefully squad will be reasonably settled....