Ryan,,, Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 How about a bun? They've gotb cocaine in them! No, not cocaine, what are they called, raison! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nomis07 Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Originally posted by Ryan,,,:How about a bun? They've gotb cocaine in them! No, not cocaine, what are they called, raison! Ha, whilst I enjoy these quotes I think they don't add anything to the forum lol. That may be jealousy as noone has ever mentioned my location despite it being one of the greatest pieces of comedy in the 21st century. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan,,, Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Where? Craggy Island? Holmfirth? In a pineapple under the sea? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nomis07 Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Originally posted by Ryan,,,:Where? Craggy Island? Holmfirth? In a pineapple under the sea? No mine you cretin... The made up names for Cake - which include "Loonytoad quack," "Joss Ackland's *****y Backpack," "Ponce on the heath," "Rustledust," and "Hattie Jacques Pretentious Cheese Wog." If you haven't seen that then you haven't lived. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
backpackant Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Originally posted by Fred:OFC we want 3D matches. We live in 2008 !!! Would you rather watch a real football match with little lifeless dots? NO! We want to see the dribles, the tackles, the scissor kicks! Wow, another person who cannot grasp the limitations of modern computing. And 3D graphics on FM will not even resemble Pro Evo or anything similar. The memory is taken up by the match engine itself (exlcuding graphics, this is a huge process), the database and everything else going on in the game. Until everyone has a quad-core, 6GB RAM, 500GB hard drive, graphics on that detail will just have to wait. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Complete Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 If we get 3d in FM2009, I expect all the people who want it in the game now to come on here and moan that the transter market, media, confidence and Regens/Newgens are still messed up. To me the match engine isn't finished. It could have so many more improvements. Corners is one. Another thing that really annoys me about the engine, is when your player runs all the way to the end of the pitch for the ball and then touches it out for a corner when there is no-one near him. The opposition score way to many goals from tackling one of your players and from that tackle the ball goes 50 yeards up the pitch as a perfect throughball for their striker and they score. These things need to be addressed first before we go for arty farty graphics. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
backpackant Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 The other problem with this debate is that people mistake the match engine for what you see on the screen. The match engine is the process by which the computer works out what is happening on the pitch, and the 2D graphics and commentary are fed from this. Occasionally, they don't all marry up, hence why you have an attack on and on the 2D blob your striker will punt the ball out for a goal kick and the commentary will say "takes no chances", when what is actually happening is that your player has sliced his cross. A minor bug, and certainly not game-ruining. 3D graphics will not improve this. I think people are expecting sky-sports angles and close-ups of dribbling etc, but that just can't happen. Until technology/programming attains that level, 3D graphics will be a tilted pitch and rough representations of humans sliding about the pitch, just like the apalling CM game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neji Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 I think people are expecting sky-sports angles and close-ups of dribbling etc, but that just can't happen. Until technology/programming attains that level, 3D graphics will be a tilted pitch and rough representations of humans sliding about the pitch, just like the apalling CM game. I think you are seriously underestimating technology. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest baggie_chris Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Originally posted by Ryan,,,:I like Lampard. gerrard is a *****. Jimmy Bullard and Gareth Barry(He started with us, the Seagulls!) would be great in midfield together. Utter s**t! Gerrard is far better than Fatty Lampard and Bullard, though he's goo, will never be international class! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnerfan Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 No. The 2-D display is a tactical representation, giving the manager what he needs to see to understand what has to change in his tactics. Everything else would just be colored bubbles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cometdude Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 I say you've gotta stick with the current match engine. 3D doesnt really bother me, if FM wasnt as in depth and enjoyable then maybe I would what a more aesthetically pleasing match engine, but its the most realistic football game ever created. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnerfan Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 Just to amplify, when I was coaching IRL, the most useful video materials were the ones that showed a film clip of play, and then showed a 2-D tactical representation very much like the current match engine. Invaluable in developing tactical systems. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverick_woo Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 I want better regen players rather than this sort of colored bubbles so called 3D! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PearlJam Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 I think everyone saying no is imagining something like Fifa/Pro Evo replacing the 2d engine. Imagine something more like the current 2d engine, but that you can freely rotate 360 degrees. You'd be able to see the height of long balls etc etc and it'd be useful. The players wouldn't be 3d human models with animations, they'd still be dots essentially. Just to amplify, when I was coaching IRL, the most useful video materials were the ones that showed a film clip of play, and then showed a 2-D tactical representation very much like the current match engine. Invaluable in developing tactical systems. Matches during FM are supposed to be live, not post-match representations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Come Clarity Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 If we're going to be pedantic the match engine is already 3D - and has been since the beginning. I don't know where S.I or Mr. Collyer wish to take the game and the match engine within, however even from a business perspective it makes sense to keep the engine as it is. There are no massive graphical requirements from Football Manager, especially in comparison to that of Fifa Manager. Why reduce your potential market that turn the box over in GAME to find out that their computer doesn't have the ability to run the game. I think - and this is a big I think, but the game doesn't actually require any 3D acceleration, unlike it's peers which puts it at a large advantage. No the game doesn't have the gloss and presentation one might expect from Electronic Arts, however as backward as this may sound, has the game ever tried to be anything more than a glorified spreadsheet? Me and my Macbook are more than content with Football Manager's requirements given this computer's sheer inability to run 3D games, and I believe many others have the same sentiments. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bomjr Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 I think a 3D Engine would be possible. I've said it a million times... do it like Pro Evolution! For those who play Winning Eleven (Pro Evolution) Imagine... you play the master league, buy/sell players, create formation and tactics, then place your controller on "manager" while the match begins. There you have it. Your team against an AI, which means glitches won't occur! You can see everything that happens! Your player play the way you want them too! You lose cuz either your players ain't good enough, or just screwed up. Maybe FM could follow the same procedure. I know its a big task, creating all the faces with thousands of players! but I'm telling you! IT WILL HAPPEN! A decade ago, The word "terrabyte" was unimaginable... and now, we're already dipping our toes into it. So YES I'm in for it... but I'm sure it won't happen soon. I'll give you 2020 Max. hehehe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svenc Posted June 4, 2008 Share Posted June 4, 2008 There are no massive graphical requirements from Football Manager, Just to clear up that common myth: The FIFA engine implemented in FIFA Manager runs on video cards just as old as the machines listed by SI as minimum requirements for FM. Furthermore, even the engine of the latest FIFA game dates back to ca. 2004, as EA refuse to give the PC version any overhaul at all. Even then: FIFA Manager is and never had hardware requirements that steep. In fact, I'd argue that FM's are higher. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neji Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 I don't know where S.I or Mr. Collyer wish to take the game and the match engine within, however even from a business perspective it makes sense to keep the engine as it is.There are no massive graphical requirements from Football Manager, especially in comparison to that of Fifa Manager. Why reduce your potential market that turn the box over in GAME to find out that their computer doesn't have the ability to run the game. Actually, it would increase the market. IF SI did do a full3D match engine, surely the 2D would still be an option? Meaning that you wouldn't have to run the 3D match engine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neji Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 Just to clear up that common myth: The FIFA engine implemented in FIFA Manager runs on video cards just as old as the machines listed by SI as minimum requirements for FM. Absolutely true. I just did some quick research. Specs for FIFA Manager 08 OS - Windows 2000/XP/Vista* Processor – 1.3 GHz or faster Memory – 256 MB Hard Drive – 3.92 GB Video Card – 64 MB** Specs for FM 08 System: 1.2GHz Processor or equivalentRAM: 256 MB Hard Drive Space: 750 MB And this is what you get in FIFA Manager... Screenie! Click Me! Click Me! The only major difference is the GPU and 64MB for a GPU is ancient, if your PC doesnt have that then WOW. Now sure these are Minimum specs but I would think that the majority of players have PC that surpass these. I would imagine 2GHz processor at least, 512 RAM at least. So you can't dismiss this on specs required. However the other arguements are still valid (ie I've not seen the FIFA Manager ME). It may be rubbish. However, I don't see the harm if the option is there for 2D or 3D. Everyone is happy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SI Staff Ter Posted June 5, 2008 SI Staff Share Posted June 5, 2008 has the game ever tried to be anything more than a glorified spreadsheet? That's the direction I would like the game to take and a tag I would like to lose. Better presentation and usabililty is something we're continually looking at and I can only see a positive outcome for the end user. It's a challenge though with so much information on some screens. If you look back to how CM4 looked with little graphical enhancements and how it looks now with things like player pictures, team logos, kit images, morale icons, general icons and even flags in there now. This might be sad, but flags are one of my favourite graphical additions to the game since I got involved. I love my flags. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burscoughnian Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 I love the interchangable graphics in FM too. I actually like the 2D match engine also but would welcome improvements. I think it's too large a step to go all fancy 3D yet but I do think more animated players on the 2D setup could be implemented. Maybe something a bit more "Sensible Soccer" style. With different animations for step over's and the like. You'd be able to see penalties and offsides more easily this way too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
turn it upto 11 Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 i like the shgot that neji has posted, would love to see this in fm, as long as it isnt predetermined graphics etc and was generated there and then looking different every time, ie the curren ME. sure technology is capable of doing it, eurphoria blah blah. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
backpackant Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 However the other arguements are still valid (ie I've not seen the FIFA Manager ME). It may be rubbish. It is. At least the demo I played recently is. It's what happens when you concentrate on the wrapping instead of the content. It would be nice but the amount of detail in the game already takes up so much memory. I'm sure modern machines ARE capable of running it but with the average PC the additional strain would mean spending a week per season. Until SI sort out the bits of the game that actually matter, I hope they don't tart the game up unecessarily. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pangaea Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 No. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svenc Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 The only major difference is the GPU and 64MB for a GPU is ancient, if your PC doesnt have that then WOW. Now sure these are Minimum specs but I would think that the majority of players have PC that surpass these. I would imagine 2GHz processor at least, 512 RAM at least. The engine is that old now, I can't see contemporary integrated graphics struggling much with, say FIFA08. Depending on resolution anyway. Integrated graphics means: a cheapo video chip that comes with many a motherboard which in turn means there's no video card installed in the system at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svenc Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 That said, the FIFA engine, either last-gen (as seen on PC or PS2) or next-gen (as seen on Three-Sixty or PS3) certainly isn't up to the depth of simulation SI's aiming at. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chopper99 Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 Originally posted by Svenc:That said, the FIFA engine, either last-gen (as seen on PC or PS2) or next-gen (as seen on Three-Sixty or PS3) certainly isn't up to the depth of simulation SI's aiming at. I think this hits the nail on the head perfectly. No sports 3D engine I've seen is capable of representing the multitude of different things that SI want to happen in an FM match. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nomis07 Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 Originally posted by chopper99:I think this hits the nail on the head perfectly. No sports 3D engine I've seen is capable of representing the multitude of different things that SI want to happen in an FM match. I raised this before and was slammed for it by a couple of people. 2d despite it's blobesque features is the best representation of actual football i've ever seen. I watched my Barca team put together 32 passes resulting in a goal last night (reminiscent of that Argentina goal at the last world cup) now i'm sure it takes a lot to create that in 2D but I dread to think what it would take to create in 3D and I honestly don't think it would be possible. Yeah I couldn't tell if it was a header that put the ball in the net, but the representation of the move was believable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svenc Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 I think this hits the nail on the head perfectly. No sports 3D engine I've seen is capable of representing the multitude of different things that SI want to happen in an FM match. Yes, that doesn't mean whatever status quo you're picking at will stay that way forever. 3D engines are evolving all the time - just as everything else is. Video games have always been products of the respective technology available at their time. Nothing stands still, nothing ever will. And: technically, neither the FIFA engine nor Pro Evo are that advanced nor or a showcase of what 3D can do given today's average machines, tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nomis07 Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 Originally posted by Svenc:Yes, that doesn't mean whatever status quo you're picking at will stay that way forever. 3D engines are evolving all the time - just as everything else is. Video games have always been products of the respective technology available at their time. Nothing stands still, nothing ever will. And: technically, neither the FIFA engine nor Pro Evo are that advanced nor or a showcase of what 3D can do given today's average machines, tbh. I think people see other people saying no to a 3D representation and think they are just scared of change. I'd be all for a new 3D system, if it was better than the 2D system and was close to perfect. I haven't played any of the recent PES or Fifa games, but they are far from perfect from what freinds tell me. It's not disagreement for disagreements sake, but hopefully 3D isn't moving "forward" for moving "forwards" sake, rather than actually being of any benefit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svenc Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 That said,: I feel that a lot of 2d vs 3d debates are completely missing the point. The point here is: vision. Vision is about having an idea, and making it come to life given the means at ones disposal. 2d, 3d, 4d, DD,.. it's pointless. Those are means to an end, not an end itself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nomis07 Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 Originally posted by Svenc:2d, 3d, 4d, DD,.. it's pointless. Those are means to an end, not an end itself. DD seems like a good end to a night in, IMO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodIdea Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 People were moaning when the 2D pitch got brought it, as it would ruin the game. People now see 2D as the bare minimum now. People are just stupid and fickle who hate change as an idea, but love it when it happens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nomis07 Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 Originally posted by GoodIdea:People were moaning when the 2D pitch got brought it, as it would ruin the game. People now see 2D as the bare minimum now. People are just stupid and fickle who hate change as an idea, but love it when it happens. Sorry but that's just a ridiculous sweeping statement that serves only to undermine your opinion. As I stated and you seemed to ignore, it is not argument for arguments sake, it is that I want 3D included when it is perfect, I don't want a Fifa/Pes esque hash of a job because it will have been a waste of money ad IMO will prove detrimental to the game in general. Now if it is possible to recreate the current match enegine and all of it's current abilities then happy days and I look forward to FM09, if not then this issue is a dead duck and can't be taken seriously. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodIdea Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 Originally posted by Nomis07:<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GoodIdea: People were moaning when the 2D pitch got brought it, as it would ruin the game. People now see 2D as the bare minimum now. People are just stupid and fickle who hate change as an idea, but love it when it happens. Sorry but that's just a ridiculous sweeping statement that serves only to undermine your opinion. As I stated and you seemed to ignore, it is not argument for arguments sake, it is that I want 3D included when it is perfect, I don't want a Fifa/Pes esque hash of a job because it will have been a waste of money ad IMO will prove detrimental to the game in general. Now if it is possible to recreate the current match enegine and all of it's current abilities then happy days and I look forward to FM09, if not then this issue is a dead duck and can't be taken seriously. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Of course the graphics wont be like PES, and the only way to make the 3D graphics perfect, is to include them as soon as possible. Like I said, people moaned that 2D would ruin the game, and it clearly hasnt. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nomis07 Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 Originally posted by GoodIdea:Of course the graphics wont be like PES, and the only way to make the 3D graphics perfect, is to include them as soon as possible. Like I said, people moaned that 2D would ruin the game, and it clearly hasnt. I take your point on the 2D bit, but 2D still didn't represent as big a change as 3D would. With regards to implementing it as soon as possible so as to make it perfect, I think you only need to look at these forums on a daily basis to see what happens when something is included but not perfected. The response to the inclusion of the confidence feature has been awful and caused many arguments, and that's for a minor feature. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
anthony wright Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 2D from text was a bigger step than 3D from 2D will be IMO Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallenone Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 for those of you who still want the bird's eye top down view all you need to do is switch to the camera angle and then you can see all your lovely tactics at work CM does this and it feels natural What you do is just put a camera looking at the field and u get ur old school 2d loveliness except now with legs and motion but because right now the 2d match engine can't progress any further, every year ppl are saying fm is becoming more and more of a glorified roster update i mean with fm2008 ppl were complaining to bring back the fm2007 match engine and stop tinkering with it..esp with all the fuss about vanilla 08 and beta patch and patch 8.0.1 we can't go any further in this engine 3d if its really low crappy graphics (2001 era) is still better looking than blobs and come on, think of it real football managers watch their games in 3d not 2d, and if u want ur 2d switch ur camera! of course the first year they switch to the engine is always gonna be a rough step, may not be as detailed but hey over the years and over each release they can at least improve it much like with the 2d match engine years ago do you watch you real life football games in 3d? i think so Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobirinis66 Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 but in real life managers dont watch the match in a 2-D display.... i would prefer both choices(2-D OR 3-D) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nomis07 Posted June 5, 2008 Share Posted June 5, 2008 Originally posted by Fallenone:of course the first year they switch to the engine is always gonna be a rough step, may not be as detailed but hey over the years and over each release they can at least improve it much like with the 2d match engine years ago Like I said already, you only have to look round these forums to see what the response is when something isn't perfect on release. I would agree that they should implement it at some point and then perfect it, but just look at the confidence feature, it's not perfect and every day there is a new thread started by someone slamming SI. do you watch you real life football games in 3d? i think so I don't really get your point there, if I see a hedgehog it's 3D yet the 3D representation of Sonic is terrible compared to it's 2D Mega Drive counterpart. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bomjr Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 Haha, and to think that this was suppose to be a yes and no forum... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neji Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 I don't really get your point there, if I see a hedgehog it's 3D yet the 3D representation of Sonic is terrible compared to it's 2D Mega Drive counterpart. I think he is reffering to the fact that FM is a simulation of real life. I don't think Sonic was meant to reflect real life. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nomis07 Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 Originally posted by Neji:I don't think Sonic was meant to reflect real life. Way to shatter a man's dreams there lol. FM isn't a simulation of real life though, because I wouldn't buy the kind of players I do if I was a real manager and most of all i'm not a manager. I just don't get this, "football IRL is 3D so if FM is a simulation it should be 3D" stuff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
turn it upto 11 Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 i do think, even if it isnt a 3d ME, that fm needs pretty-ing up though, not in a tacky way or anything, just a little bit, although downloading things solves this problem for me. on 3D itll come eventually, i dont think it will be this time round. maybe tilted a little, but not a full 3d fifa like look. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnerfan Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 Originally posted by PearlJam:I think everyone saying no is imagining something like Fifa/Pro Evo replacing the 2d engine. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Just to amplify, when I was coaching IRL, the most useful video materials were the ones that showed a film clip of play, and then showed a 2-D tactical representation very much like the current match engine. Invaluable in developing tactical systems. Matches during FM are supposed to be live, not post-match representations. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Here is the nub of the argument. Proponents of 3D invariably look to recreate the experience of viewing the match - and that is essentially a fan's experience. The 2D gives the coach feedback on his tactics. That is the coach/manager experience. You are correct when you say that the tactical analysis is, IRL, a post-match exercise. However, part of making FM playable involves compressing time, and if the game had a stage whereby we experienced the match in 3D and then had an opportunity to analyze tactics post-match in 2D, that might provide a more realistic experience, but it would also further slow down gameplay, and I don't see that as a positive. As it is, gameplay for me has slowed considerably over the past few years as tactical detail has increased. Whereas I used to play 5 or 6 "career games" within a one-year CM/FM release year, I'm now down to 3, maximum. And, as always, I resist the idea of venturing into 3D because of the greatly expanded code it would require and the time diverted from other areas of the game I would like to see improved. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnerfan Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 Understand, I'm not in any way complaining about the increase in tactical detail. On the contrary! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbarnet12 Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 Part of the enjoyment of FM comes from the imagination of how simulated games would look in real life. Consequently, I do not want any extra graphics just to make the game look good, including the 3D match engine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Svenc Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 Heh, yeah, I fully understand the appeal in that. Those blobs sure leave a lot to the imagination, don't they? Furthermore, SI's are those little punks raising their middle fingers in an industry driven by self perpetual myths. They are the guys proving billion of publishers dead wrong: extremely sexy visuals are in no way a requirement to sell sound ideas. Those ideas have to be there in the first place, is all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnerfan Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 Actually, the blobs tell you what you need to know as a coach/manager - where your tactics are breaking down. The extra detail that 3D would provide would, if anything, be a distraction. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neji Posted June 6, 2008 Share Posted June 6, 2008 Originally posted by gunnerfan:Actually, the blobs tell you what you need to know as a coach/manager - where your tactics are breaking down. The extra detail that 3D would provide would, if anything, be a distraction. and that is where ProZone comes in (or a ripoff, at least ) "football IRL is 3D so if FM is a simulation it should be 3D" stuff. I agree but you see almost all of the posters on here are realism junkies. They will often support and idea because it is realistic rather than it being a sound idea. So, for those posters surely this counts? Just to make this clear. I'm not sold on 3D yet, even though I probably come across that way in some posts. I'd love a FIFA style engine but I don't think we should see it implemented for many versions yet. What I would like is SI to start building it now and then introduce it into a later game so it can get off to a good start. I realise, that this probably isn't the soundest business idea but still Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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