Efficient AMC instructions discussion, for "4-2-'3-1" formation. (FM11.3)

[Swahn]

AMC

Efficient AMC instructions discussion, for "4-2-'3-1" (am r-c-l) formations

What Role du you recommend for AMC?

1a) Inside Forward, Att Midfielder, Adv Playmaker or Trequartista?

1b) Attacking or Support?

2) Any needed specific Instructions?

3) And finally what main attributes do you prefere?

Why I started the thread?

My AMC are often anonomous in the matches. Often the lowest Rating on my team no matter if I lost or won - dominated or not. Easy outmarked. Bad defence positioning etc. I have very different types of players trained to AMC (Fabregas, Gerrard, Douglas costa, ), but they all tends to "fall out".

[Cleon]

Taken from my thread http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/238682-Explanation-of-the-Impact-of-Player-Attributes-During-Match-Play-*Updated-for-FM11*

Attacking Midfielder Centre

I’m guessing this is the position majority of people want to see and discuss due to the amount of goals scored. When VDV is injured I use Hazard in the exact same role with the exact same settings. VDV scored 36 goals in 44 games. And Hazard got 20 goals from the same position. So a return of 56 goals in 65 games combined between them is an excellent return.

Not much to talk about from an attribute point of view, it’s pretty obvious what his strengths are and what a good player he is.

So let’s look at his tactic settings;

I’ve gave him lots of creative freedom and an attacking mentality, but he’s not too advanced. This is to stop him been too far ahead of play and been less effective. He basically plays as a second striker rather than an attacking midfielder. Basically he is set up to be as attacking as possible and I’ve allowed him to roam to find and create space. It’s important that I allow him the creative freedom to make use of the roaming he will be doing. That is why he is so successful. If I just gave him roaming and no creativity then it would kind of be pointless as he wouldn’t be taking advantage of the situation.

That isn’t the only reason why he seems to play so well. It’s about the players around him. He links up with the midfield, attacking midfielders and the striker really well. You’ll see some examples later on when we start looking at how his role actually plays out in a game.

Let’s take a look at his stats for the season;

It’s no surprise his heading and passing was as low as he can’t do either. Plus he was set up to just attack so I don’t really mind about these been low.

[ZdlR]

Ignoring the attributes of the different players mentioned (VdV, Gerrard, Douglas Costa, Fabregas), take a look at the difference in instructions.

Your Steven Gerrard supporting playmaker AMC looks very cautious. He has a normal mentality, normal creative freedom, normal passing, normal wide play, no roaming. Altogether, he is very normal! Picturing how he is going to play in the match engine the first thing I think that is missing is space to play in. As soon as he receives the ball, he is likely to have a man on him. Even with >=16 in off the ball, if it is not being exploited then no space will be found. Playing against a dedicated DMC, he will effectively be marked out of the game. Even on the rare occasions that he finds space and receives a pass, he is so risk averse that - despite being asked to play plenty of through-balls - he is probably going to find a nice safe pass backwards or sideways to keep possession.

Contrast that to Cleon's VdV and you will see that he is taking more risks with an attacking mentality, giving him the freedom to express himself plenty, allowing him to roam around looking for pockets of space to exploit, taking on defenders with the ball and making penetrative runs without the ball. I think this is a much more direct AMC - pretty much a second striker in the hole, rather than a creative playmaker. Gerrard can play this on occasion, Fabregas probably not so much and I have no idea what Douglas Costa can do.

For Gerrard, I tend to let him play a creative, attacking version of his normal game - roaming with mixed instructions for everything, occasionally toning down his long shots due to his PPM.

Aside: It's probably also worth noting the difference in defensive settings for the two. Gerrard is being asked to close down a lot and tightly mark opponents whereas VdV is absolved of all defensive duties and doesn't have to close down or tightly mark at all. This will have an affect on fitness levels but will also affect how much space the player has, especially during the transitional phase when the opponent loses the ball.

[Cleon]

Ignoring the attributes of the different players mentioned (VdV, Gerrard, Douglas Costa, Fabregas), take a look at the difference in instructions.

Your Steven Gerrard supporting playmaker AMC looks very cautious. He has a normal mentality, normal creative freedom, normal passing, normal wide play, no roaming. Altogether, he is very normal! Picturing how he is going to play in the match engine the first thing I think that is missing is space to play in. As soon as he receives the ball, he is likely to have a man on him. Even with >=16 in off the ball, if it is not being exploited then no space will be found. Playing against a dedicated DMC, he will effectively be marked out of the game. Even on the rare occasions that he finds space and receives a pass, he is so risk averse that - despite being asked to play plenty of through-balls - he is probably going to find a nice safe pass backwards or sideways to keep possession.

Contrast that to Cleon's VdV and you will see that he is taking more risks with an attacking mentality, giving him the freedom to express himself plenty, allowing him to roam around looking for pockets of space to exploit, taking on defenders with the ball and making penetrative runs without the ball. I think this is a much more direct AMC - pretty much a second striker in the hole, rather than a creative playmaker. Gerrard can play this on occasion, Fabregas probably not so much and I have no idea what Douglas Costa can do.

For Gerrard, I tend to let him play a creative, attacking version of his normal game - roaming with mixed instructions for everything, occasionally toning down his long shots due to his PPM.

Yeah very true. Plus his playmaker is easy to mark out of games as he is very static and not instructed to roam from position. For a playmaker you want him to be finding space and moving around so he can dictate play a little more. Plus he's very restricted from a creative point like mentioned by Zdlr.

[Swahn]

Thank you very much both of you, Cleon and Zdir,

Very Good considerations. Exactly what I needed (thoughts more than solutions).

As my settings sucked -in my tactic, -with my players, i'll not contribute too much.

[Karnage94]

@ Cleon

Can I ask why you have set Van Der Vaart to not close down at all and your idea behind that. I personally hate not having every player making an active effort defensively

[Cleon]

@ Cleon

Can I ask why you have set Van Der Vaart to not close down at all and your idea behind that. I personally hate not having every player making an active effort defensively

Look at his goal return for me. That's because he always is up top and doesn't chase after the ball. I want him to always be in an attacking position to make the most of his attributes. I have defensive players set up to win the ball back instead. If you read the thread I linked in the post, it's explained

[Karnage94]

Look at his goal return for me. That's because he always is up top and doesn't chase after the ball. I want him to always be in an attacking position to make the most of his attributes. I have defensive players set up to win the ball back instead. If you read the thread I linked in the post, it's explained

I see your point. I was just intrigued by it as I have always set my players to press á la Barca. His goal return is superb I must admit. Thanks for explanation

[Swahn]

Look at his goal return for me. That's because he always is up top and doesn't chase after the ball. I want him to always be in an attacking position to make the most of his attributes. I have defensive players set up to win the ball back instead. If you read the thread I linked in the post, it's explained

Something I have noticed previously though is (when defending!), that even with high Closing down, very often the AMC stands for himself and isnt contributing to pressure the opponent. One explanation can be he simply dont know who to pressure unless he was setup a specific man marking, which is a overkill by far. Anyway that is what it looks like

With less closing down, and more creativity freedom he will of course be more ready to participate and make good runs, as soon as the ball is won. This setting could as well be seen as a consequence of his anyway low defence contribution. -I'm looking forward to test the effects both defensively and attacking.

But I have noticed this bad defensive positioning issue for my AM R/L as well. No defensive work. Bad defensive positioning no matter the mentality setting, closing down setting, or marking style. Do you use low closing down on the wings as well?

[James9]

Look at his goal return for me. That's because he always is up top and doesn't chase after the ball. I want him to always be in an attacking position to make the most of his attributes. I have defensive players set up to win the ball back instead. If you read the thread I linked in the post, it's explained

Hello Cleon what would you advice for Fabregas would you also give him a Inside forward role and then just reduce is run with ball to sometimes because he does not have very good dribbling skills or would you give him advance playmaker with support dutyI would love Fabregas to get 35 goals per season like VDV. If Fabregas was Advance Playmaker support how would you set up him to ensure that he creates and scores goals

Also mate what skin are you using please could you send me the link

[SCIAG]

Hello Cleon what would you advice for Fabregas would you also give him a Inside forward role and then just reduce is run with ball to sometimes because he does not have very good dribbling skills or would you give him advance playmaker with support dutyI would love Fabregas to get 35 goals per season like VDV. If Fabregas was Advance Playmaker support how would you set up him to ensure that he creates and scores goals

Also mate what skin are you using please could you send me the link

The most important thing for goal return is "run from deep". If Fabregas doesn't get in the box, he will not score. Increase his RFD, and he'll make runs into the box that will get him goals. This is especially important because Fabregas isn't great at long shots (like VDV) or dribbling (like Kaka) so he won't score goals doing that. Even with players who do have other ways of scoring goals, I find that RFD really adds to their goal total. As for assists: have players for him to pass to! Make sure your striker is making runs that Cesc can pick out. Maybe have one of your MCs running from deep too, so Cesc can pick him out, or one or both of your wid eplayers cutting inside.

The role Cleon's player has doesn't really matter, because he's overwritten nearly every other setting. However, I'd suggest setting Cesc to "advanced playmaker" or "trequartista" so he is made the default playmaker and consequently receives the ball a lot.

[Cleon]

The most important thing for goal return is "run from deep". If Fabregas doesn't get in the box, he will not score. Increase his RFD, and he'll make runs into the box that will get him goals. This is especially important because Fabregas isn't great at long shots (like VDV) or dribbling (like Kaka) so he won't score goals doing that. Even with players who do have other ways of scoring goals, I find that RFD really adds to their goal total. As for assists: have players for him to pass to! Make sure your striker is making runs that Cesc can pick out. Maybe have one of your MCs running from deep too, so Cesc can pick him out, or one or both of your wid eplayers cutting inside.

The role Cleon's player has doesn't really matter, because he's overwritten nearly every other setting. However, I'd suggest setting Cesc to "advanced playmaker" or "trequartista" so he is made the default playmaker and consequently receives the ball a lot.

I can't stress how important the bolded bit is, if you want him to get goals. It's vital imo and is how my AMC's always end up scoring the majority of their goals.

If you want to be really clever and do something a little different, have your AMC set as the targetman and have balls played to their feet. I've done this on a few occasions and it can be a big plus.

[James9]

I can't stress how important the bolded bit is, if you want him to get goals. It's vital imo and is how my AMC's always end up scoring the majority of their goals.

If you want to be really clever and do something a little different, have your AMC set as the targetman and have balls played to their feet. I've done this on a few occasions and it can be a big plus.

I would like him to get goals and also create goals would you still have is run from deep set to often or sometimes

[GControl]

AMC

Why I started the thread?

My AMC are often anonomous in the matches. Often the lowest Rating on my team no matter if I lost or won - dominated or not. Easy outmarked. Bad defence positioning etc. I have very different types of players trained to AMC (Fabregas, Gerrard, Douglas costa, ), but they all tends to "fall out".

This is the common promblem, I solved it by specializing AMC on single function. I examinated for that position three roles: playmaker, second forward or long-sooter. Finally I decided that second forward or long-sooter are best suite for this position. IMHO, the only way to make game rating is not low for AMC is to let him score some goals.

What Role du you recommend for AMC?

1a) Inside Forward, Att Midfielder, Adv Playmaker or Trequartista?

Inside Forward (for second forward) or Att Midfielder (for Long Shooter)

1b) Attacking or Support?

Attacking for second forward or Support for Log Shooter

AMC is the best position for goals from distance in the game. Better them MC AML and AMR and much better then DMC. If you use Long shooter, he should alway be open to shoot from distance thats why he should not go forward often he should stand on his position like with supportive duties.

But if you AMC has no 19 or 20 fo Long shoot attribute, but able to score from more simple opportunities use him as a forward. But he should not be target mane. I discovered that AMC even with high ability to play in the air will not use it even close often as STC. So use him as a fast forward. PPMs of beat offside trap and forward as much as possible are very useful in this case.

[Mike_Cardinal]

It’s no surprise his heading and passing was as low as he can’t do either. Plus he was set up to just attack so I don’t really mind about these been low.

Sorry to nitpick, but Rafael Van Der Vaart can't pass? Are you serious? Technique/Passing/Creativity/Decisions/Composure/Anticipation/Teamwork - I'm struggling to see what the problem is here...

[Karnage94]

Sorry to nitpick, but Rafael Van Der Vaart can't pass? Are you serious? Technique/Passing/Creativity/Decisions/Composure/Anticipation/Teamwork - I'm struggling to see what the problem is here...

I'm going to presume Cleon meant Tackling. Simple error here

[Cleon]

I'm going to presume Cleon meant Tackling. Simple error here

Yeah I did cheers. It's pretty clear to anyone with half a brain what I meant and you can see it's a typo.

[Mike_Cardinal]

Ah, sorry. My mistake then.

I agree with others of the use in instructing the AM to Roam - it really helps them evade those pesky DMs, as does the 'Moves into Channels' instruction (which comes with the Trequartista role only), which can result in your player finding space out wide to slide in some lovely, Ozil-esque through balls.

[Fieldsy]

Cleon - I am just interested into how you set the lone striker up (what role/duty etc)?

[dankrzyz]

Cleon - I am just interested into how you set the lone striker up (what role/duty etc)?

Trying not to stray too far from this thread's topic... this is a fair question about how to set up that type of attacking AMC with what type(s) of lone forward. If you have VdV charging toward goal, eyes on the back of the net, do you want your lone forward dropping back and/or into channels to pull the opposition defender? Or would your lone forward also be on the attack, providing a two-pronged assault on the box?

[SCIAG]

I use a 4-2-3-1 as England. As none of the young players are getting game time at their clubs (something I have resolved by getting the Blackburn job and signing a few!) I am still using Gerrard and Lampard, with Mark Noble coming in for Lampard if I cannot select him and David Dunn in for Steven Gerrard. I have Roonet as my striker, obviously. He's set as a complete forward (a) because this should get the most out of such a skilled player. I have Lampard as CM(a) or CM(s) if I want to be more restrained, and Gerrard as AMC(a). With these two charging forward whilst Huddlestone/Carrick/Rodwell holds, Young cuts in from the left and Rooney moves forward can lead to beautiful passing moves and completely overrun defences. I beat France 4-3, with 3 of the goals coming from such moves involving Gerrard, Lampard, Young and Rooney.

At Blackburn, similarly, I have my striker push on and create space for Dunn to operate in.

I think "attacking" strikers are the best move, as they will increase the chances for your player to get assists and will create space to be exploited, but equally you could have success with an intelligent striker who links play and gives your AMC a lot of chances.

[Cleon]

Cleon - I am just interested into how you set the lone striker up (what role/duty etc)?

It's a good question actually because they both work together and VDV wouldn't have been as good if Defoe didn't play his part.

Striker

Defoe scores goals it’s that simple. He is set up to play off balls supplied by all three attacking midfielders.

He is the ideal poacher although his first touch and dribbling are a bit low, but he can still do the job very well.

It’s important that he doesn’t drift out to the channels. I need him to stay central to work alongside VDV. I already have enough width if needed. Because he only has 12 for the dribbling attribute, that is why I gave him run with ball sometimes.

Pretty good pass completion rate for a striker.

[Cleon]

I use a 4-2-3-1 as England. As none of the young players are getting game time at their clubs (something I have resolved by getting the Blackburn job and signing a few!) I am still using Gerrard and Lampard, with Mark Noble coming in for Lampard if I cannot select him and David Dunn in for Steven Gerrard. I have Roonet as my striker, obviously. He's set as a complete forward (a) because this should get the most out of such a skilled player. I have Lampard as CM(a) or CM(s) if I want to be more restrained, and Gerrard as AMC(a). With these two charging forward whilst Huddlestone/Carrick/Rodwell holds, Young cuts in from the left and Rooney moves forward can lead to beautiful passing moves and completely overrun defences. I beat France 4-3, with 3 of the goals coming from such moves involving Gerrard, Lampard, Young and Rooney.

At Blackburn, similarly, I have my striker push on and create space for Dunn to operate in.

I think "attacking" strikers are the best move, as they will increase the chances for your player to get assists and will create space to be exploited, but equally you could have success with an intelligent striker who links play and gives your AMC a lot of chances.

In some saved games I have I've done this and it allows my AML to be the top scorer. Think he got something like 48 goals in 45 games cutting in from the left. But like you've pointed out it's basically finding what works best for your current set up and the players available. There are lots of variations you can use and all will have plus points that the other doesn't have.

[SCIAG]

I have very different types of players trained to AMC (Fabregas, Gerrard, Douglas costa, ), but they all tends to "fall out".

In the case of Fabregas, he is an outstanding passer but not great at dribbling or shooting, so I'd give him passing options by having the striker (and at least one winger) look to get in behind the defence. I'd set him as an Advanced Playmaker with an Attack duty.

Gerrard's main strength is his shooting ability, as well as his drive. I'd use him as an Attacking Midfielder (I do this when manager of England), though I would consider setting him as my playmaker. I would probably use a striker who creates space for him by stretching the defence, but he could work with a creative striker who allows him to "overtake", as it were.

I've never managed Douglas Costa, but I think he's a very technical player who dribbles well. If I remember correctly, he's very suited to a role as a trequartista, running at the defence directly. I don't think passing is his strong point, but if he doe shave good passing and creativity (for a player of his quality, I would say 15+ is worth adjusting your tactics for), I'd definitely play with a striker who would stretch the defence and be prepared to run onto through balls. Having said that, he could be even better than Gerrard with a strong striker who could hold the ball up and play an intelligent pass to him as he "overtakes".

You have to consider the strong and (relative) weak points of the player in question, and choose the role that suits them best.

[Pipson]

Clean youve set up VdV as kinda 2nd foward, if was to mainly make his aim to supply the ball - to assit and creat chances for your only foward. What kind of settings would you use in comparison to your screenshot above.

I'm asking you this, because ive always preferred one foward tactics, and i always aim at my foward to be getting most of my goals. and Im currently trying to set up a 4231 or 451

[dankrzyz]

I think switching from Inside Forward (Att) to Attacking Midfielder (Att) adds a touch more throughballs to that player's instructions, which might be a shade closer to a scorer/creator combo that you're asking about? Switching him to an outright supporting playmaker would change the role completely.

[Pipson]

attacking mid on support or attack?

im still uncertain on the 451 or 4231, i feel that 451 is a bit more stable but sometimes lacks in that creative football and 4231 seems to have loads of weakens and sometimes too many players in such lil space...dilema lol

[Cleon]

Clean youve set up VdV as kinda 2nd foward, if was to mainly make his aim to supply the ball - to assit and creat chances for your only foward. What kind of settings would you use in comparison to your screenshot above.

I'm asking you this, because ive always preferred one foward tactics, and i always aim at my foward to be getting most of my goals. and Im currently trying to set up a 4231 or 451

He does that now and my striker has scored more.....the only difference is he creates chances for striker, AML and the AMR. So for me and my set up he already does what you are wanting him to do.

[dankrzyz]

On attack would probably preserve the "first & second striker" approach, whereas going to support would change this dynamic and probably make your AMC more of a feeder than a scorer. Though it may just be a matter of taste, as an Attacking Midfielder will go to the box at least sometimes regardless of Attack/Support.

[Pipson]

He does that now and my striker has scored more.....the only difference is he creates chances for striker, AML and the AMR. So for me and my set up he already does what you are wanting him to do.

ive set up your format, and all i see is my AMC, constantly running with the ball creating his own chances and going for it, a very selfish play imo. and ive noticed that - that setup seems to ignore the foward in alot of situations

[dankrzyz]

...that setup seems to ignore the foward in alot of situations

As in... the AMC would rather run with the ball up the middle than hold it and/or kick it up to the forward (or wingers)? I wonder if a Run With Ball = mixed (instead of Often) instruction would make your AMC decide if it's wiser to pass it forward to run with it himself.

[Pipson]

he basically just trys to do everything by himself ending up shooting alot of the times, im guessing mixed run with the ball could fix the trick

[dankrzyz]

he basically just trys to do everything by himself ending up shooting alot of the times, im guessing mixed run with the ball could fix the trick

Report back with what you find over a few games with the new setting. I'm personally very interested. In my limited experimentation with Cleon's settings, I've found my AMC to be pretty selfish, too, for better and worse. Actually looks like he bumps into the ST a lot, they have tended to bunch up, not really enough separation to pass to each other. I have a couple theories, but you're asking about one of them!

[Pipson]

atm im playing 451 with man city, 4 defenders, 1dm, 2cms, 2 wingers and FC - in my 1st season and actlly doing very well almost 10 points clear but then again it is easy with man city, however in the 2nd season i want to deploy the 4231 which imo if i was a manager it would be the kind of tactic i would deploy - this is actually one of the reasons i started with city (apart from trying to get messi and ronaldo on the same team)

[Swahn]

I'll try next time an Inside forward role, after reading this. And in second hand choose the players from that (certainly no problem) :-)

To Cleon,

Incase you need to defend an important lead in the end of a match, Would you alter your AMC instructions, or keep going? (well,, or change formation of course)

[Kevin_M]

I would just like to say thanks to everyone in this thread, but especially Cleon, for giving me tactical inspiration!

With FM10 I created a tactic which enabled me to win 20 league titles on the trot (as well as 8 Champions League titles and various other trophies) with Arsenal, and it was so successful I didn't have to tweak it once - not one single thing did I change for about 17 seasons. Not even during a match. And no matter which players moved on, their replacements always seemed to slot right in and perform, and the whole team had high ratings. Now this is all lovely, but I think it lulled me into a kind of "tactical laziness", and I thought I could just copy things that worked and the same magic would happen. But it didn't.

Don't get me wrong, I've had good success with FM11 - successive promotions with Southampton, followed by 14th and then 7th placed finishes. And then Barcelona headhunted me. I've not exactly struggled overall with them, I finished 3rd first season (I took over in January quite a way behind Madrid who were in 1st place) and got to the CL semi's, but were never really consistent. I use the old Chelsea 4-5-1 (or 4-3-3 if you prefer) under Mourinho but the two MC's and the striker were inconsistent. I rotated with Iniesta/Xavi (though he was 34 and past it)/Nuri Sahin/Sergio Busquets in the MC roles, both set as bog-standard advanced playmakers, set to support but with forward runs set to often. The only one who I got good productivity from was Iniesta who is just an assist machine. In the forward role I rotated between Villa/Lukaku/Bojan with not much success. I had the role set as complete forward set to attack. For some reason, good chances were being made, just not being put away. The AMR/AML (Messi/Hazard/Pedro) did the most damage, both set as inside forwards (set to attack) that cut inside. Messi was just unstoppable.

I started season two and made some tweaks. I bought Javier Pastore to replace Xavi and Albin Ekdal as cover, set the MC's to attack and the AMR/AML to support. Made a great start - scored 35 and let in 4 in the first 15 games, but still the MC's and were not getting too many assists or goals, although the striker was a bit more productive. Determined to get everyone playing well I came on here for a bit of inspiration and found it! I had a look at my squad and decided to switch to 4-2-3-1 with Pastore in the hole - his more natural position. Now I have one MC (Mascherano) set as a ball-winning midfielder and the other MC (Sahin/Ekdal/Iniesta) set as an advanced playmaker set to attack. Pastore as an Inside forward with settings similar to Cleon's above as he and VdV are very similar players. The AML/AMR are as they were but set to attack and the striker (Lukaku/Paloschi/Bojan) now set as a target man set to attack with the run onto ball instruction. The theory there is that all three are quick with great movement so that plays to their strengths, plus with the likes of Messi, Iniesta, Pastore etc threading through balls they should fill their boots. Well that's the plan anyway. It's early doors but I just smashed Osasuna 6-0 and Pastore played a blinder and so did the striker, so it's promising!

Anyways, sorry for the lengthy post and thread hijack - I just wanted to share that because I now realise that instead of trying to design a tactic I can just plug any player into, I should be designing a tactic to suit my players and their strengths. Even if this tactic ends up not working out, it's changed my thought process. Many thanks guys.