Tired Of "Crap" Youth? Please Read This Thread and Help Get SI's Attention

[Kanukki]

Looks like a lot of these issues are being addressed, based on today's Blog Post. The ability to chose which potential recruits get selected into your youth team especially.

[Guest]

Jsut geos to prove that SI do listen to the community, or the OP is an SI plant to make it look that way.

[Neil Brock]

If he's a plant it's the first I've heard of it!

[grep]

I have played many championships within lower and higher leagues, since FM 2008 I think.

I have never seen a single decent youngster coming out from the the youth academy, only recycle bins.

Something must be changed.

[Riz Remes]

I have never seen a single decent youngster coming out from the the youth academy, only recycle bins.

Something must be changed.

So where do the decent youngsters in FM come from then ? Considering the numerous threads on these forums where people have posted their great newgens, I'm a bit baffled why you are not seeing any in your career games.

Or maybe your idea of a "decent youngster" is simply even beyond what most people would consider "a very good youngster" ?

[7Bestie7]

The one thing I would really like out of this thread (the Academy system sounds very sweet) is the flexibility of changing a youngster's natural position. How many times do we hear about youngsters only making their names once they've moved positions? And watching the way the United youngsters are over the years, it has been obvious that the coaching staff retrain them whenever the need arises. Tom Cleverley was a RB/LB in FM 08 after all. I would definitely like a fluidity of positions, perhaps up to a certain age?

[grep]

So where do the decent youngsters in FM come from then ? Considering the numerous threads on these forums where people have posted their great newgens, I'm a bit baffled why you are not seeing any in your career games.

Or maybe your idea of a "decent youngster" is simply even beyond what most people would consider "a very good youngster" ?

I was referring to youngsters produced by my own team academy.

I consider decent a youngster who have at least few double digits here and there.

[Harlequin]

Do you rush to sign the top rated academy player because NOTW say he’s the next David Beckham and instead turns out to be a bigger flameout than those who were destined to be the next superstars (Toni Kroos)?

That's a joke right? Toni Kroos is certainly not a flameout. I fully expect him to be part of a German international side challenging for the World Cup in Brazil in 2014...

On the idea of an academy -> I think it is a good idea, but not so much in the way you've likened it to FML.

I'd rather see the game kept as realistic as possible in the sense that your club could have certain connections with certain countries, where training camps for young players are established. Therefore you're more likely to see players of this nationality coming through your youth system along with the local talent. The perfect example of this is Barcelona and their connections with Cameroon through the Samuel Eto'o foundation. It's seen the emergence of a dozen talented young Cameroonian players in their youth academy recently: Jean-Marie Dongou, Gael Etock, Armand Ella etc. Another good example would be AC Milan who hold youth training camps around the world, their academy has had players from Australia, Africa, the Americas in the past.

Incorporating something like this into FM is likely to be difficult though and I share some of the concerns of others that this could be underdone and be another half-baked feature. However, if done properly it could definitely add something to the game, and push it further towards realism.

YOu get bored of just managig Man U and want to build Taiwan into the next World Cup Winners. Normally you'd quit the game, load all Taiwanese players and hope. Now, you can specifically set up an academy to develop Taiwan into an elite team OVER TIME (Not overnight) and help their development by sending the best coaches over and help set things up (or get a young Brazilian, move him to Taiwan and get him Taiwanese nationality, either way).

I am against this point, simply because it is highly unrealistic. Whilst the idea might be fun it takes away from the realism I play the game for in the first place. Having an academy over in Taiwan which has an incredibly small population is obviously not going to mean more babies are produced who all become god-like at football to a Premier League standard. Maybe one player in a generation with your academy placed there...sure.

Each year, there could also be a news item highlighting the “top prospects” of each team’s academy, much like goal.com does on occasion touting the next talent.

This would be fantastic. I'd love this added to the game. Again, it adds realism, who doesn't do a quick google search on players like Soulemayne Coulibaly after they shine at the U/17 World Cup. It'd make it easier to hone in on some of the top talents in the world, provided the game also throws in some duds into the mix (players with low PA).

[whilewolf]

So where do the decent youngsters in FM come from then ? Considering the numerous threads on these forums where people have posted their great newgens, I'm a bit baffled why you are not seeing any in your career games.

Or maybe your idea of a "decent youngster" is simply even beyond what most people would consider "a very good youngster" ?

He means His youth set up.

Gamers are always likely to be doing better then the AI teams. Gamers are looking for players to help them at the next level up. It takes about a year to get your youth system upgraded in that time you will have moved on. Until you have reached the maximum level of youth facilities and by the time you have you are probable challenging for Europe with a team that you brought through the divisions and consequently has a lower reputation then the rest of the league and produces youth accordingly.

I have played 17 seasons with Colchester taking them down to league two then up again to challenging for the premiership title. In that time I have had 9 youth players who I gave a less then twenty games to before getting rid of. 1 players who made more then twenty appearances and no one who was able to hold down a regular first team place or even become a regular squad player for a season.

Do those numbers sound right to you?

[Riz Remes]

Yes, I know he was talking about his own youth setup. The production of newgens and their quality is relative to not only the club you are managing and their facilities and youth setup quality, but also the perception of the manager on what he expects from his first team players. Most human managers are more active in stockpiling young talents from numerous other clubs as well as naturally micromanaging their first team squad the perfection. As your example of taking Colchester to a Premiership title challenger shows, experienced users usually tend to "overperform" considering the club and resources available to them.

This means that usually human squads are much harder to break into by newgens produced at the club, simply because the human expectations are much greater than what the youth system of the club can be expected to produce. Especially so if the human manager is very ambitious and the team is on the move up the leagues

[username1]

Am i right that in the game the better the facilities, on average the better the quality of newgen you can expect?

But in real life don't most great players come from much lesser clubs, Milan/Real madrid etc dont seem to produce many superstars, in fact doesnt a lack of facilities/money actually help development; i.e if you can juggle an orange, or even a bit of chewing gum (if you're zlatan..) juggling a football is easy; haven't players who learned to play and cope on the ''streets'' (hackneyed generic term i know) often been the greatest in history, not so much those from the ritziest academies?

I'd have thought early first team football, like say Maradona got at 15, would be the key to the development of a player rather than the quality of your facilities.

[Riz Remes]

Yes, there are several factors that affect the quality of youth produced. Simply having the best facilities is not enough, because young players need to be identified, brought into the system and coached as well before they turn up in the game as newgens. And even if you have the best youth staff along with the best facilities, there is still the matter of the talent pool which you draw from, as there may be geographical limitations to the club recruitment etc. not to mention all the unknown factors that we cannot quantify from real life. The game already simulates also the randomness of it all, with superstars occasionally starting out at smaller clubs just like in real life.

[whilewolf]

Yes, I know he was talking about his own youth setup. The production of newgens and their quality is relative to not only the club you are managing and their facilities and youth setup quality, but also the perception of the manager on what he expects from his first team players. Most human managers are more active in stockpiling young talents from numerous other clubs as well as naturally micromanaging their first team squad the perfection. As your example of taking Colchester to a Premiership title challenger shows, experienced users usually tend to "overperform" considering the club and resources available to them.

This means that usually human squads are much harder to break into by newgens produced at the club, simply because the human expectations are much greater than what the youth system of the club can be expected to produce. Especially so if the human manager is very ambitious and the team is on the move up the leagues

Which leads to most human managers never getting players good enough to make the step up into their teams making the youth academy irreverent which leads to them complaining about it on these forums. Don't you think it would be a good thing if there was some way experienced human managers could have useful youth set ups while they climbed the leagues?

Say letting the manager petition the board to raise youth facilities three or four levels at a time instead of the usual one.

And While were talking about youth intake is there any possibility that it could be made to simulate the crops of good young players that tend to occur in clusters.

[Lazaru5]

Which leads to most human managers never getting players good enough to make the step up into their teams making the youth academy irreverent which leads to them complaining about it on these forums. Don't you think it would be a good thing if there was some way experienced human managers could have useful youth set ups while they climbed the leagues?

Say letting the manager petition the board to raise youth facilities three or four levels at a time instead of the usual one.

And While were talking about youth intake is there any possibility that it could be made to simulate the crops of good young players that tend to occur in clusters.

I think Riz was suggesting that the quality of players isn't generally "good enough" for us even though it would be for most AI managers. Personally I always look to the youth team for backup/rotation players, even if there's rarely a superstar, you can usually get a "team" of truly home-grown players within a few seasons that would be able to at least perform to the expected level of achievement (e.g. media prediction 16th - team finishes 16th).

We human managers tend to buy/sign our first-team players and always want to improve them so the youth that are coming through are "left behind" - we aren't interested in managing Crewe in L1/2 for 30 years, we want to take them to the Champions League in 4 or 5 years instead. If we were happy to manage them in L1/2 for 30 years, the youth system would more than adequately provide for the bulk of the team. (at least, I think that's how it's supposed to work?)

[Riz Remes]

We human managers tend to buy/sign our first-team players and always want to improve them so the youth that are coming through are "left behind" - we aren't interested in managing Crewe in L1/2 for 30 years, we want to take them to the Champions League in 4 or 5 years instead. If we were happy to manage them in L1/2 for 30 years, the youth system would more than adequately provide for the bulk of the team. (at least, I think that's how it's supposed to work?)

Post of the day

[whilewolf]

I know what his saying you don't need to reword it for me. His basically repeating what I said in my first post. The point is the youth system is virtually irrelevant for any one managing a team on the rise. Baring the very rare exception it produces players potentially capable of playing at the level you just left, and those players wont reach that potential for three or four more years. By the time those players are ready for first team football your first team is even better and they can't brake in. You only start getting useful players once you have reached the top division maxed out your youth facilities and increased your reputation sufficiently. It can be twenty seasons before you see decent squad players coming through on a yearly basis. Allowing players to sacrifice some wages/ transfer budget to finance a youth academy capable of producing players better then the level they are currently playing at would make it the useful feature it was intended to be.

[Lazaru5]

Post of the day

:o

So I guess I'm right then? Good to have that confirmed, I've always thought that was how it worked.

[Riz Remes]

You only start getting useful players once you have reached the top division maxed out your youth facilities and increased your reputation sufficiently. It can be twenty seasons before you see decent squad players coming through on a yearly basis.

I'm not sure why you think this isn't realistic. Surely it takes time to build a youth system with a good reputation that finds and develops players like that. It's not a "factory" where you can just throw money at the problem and then turn the volume up to "11" for instant improvement in output. Even young players can decide for themselves which club's youth system they want to play for, so there is always competition for young players and the human manager cannot just go out and force the best youngsters of a generation to join his youth system over other clubs.

The reason why clubs tend to initially produce newgens that are projected to be good enough to play on that level is because the club resources, facilities etc. are set like that in the starting DB. Yes, there can be clubs that produce newgens with better PA's than expected for their level more often than other clubs. Just like in real life, these clubs have good youth systems compared to their level and likely fund much of their budgets by selling the best youngsters coming through the system every now and then.

[Riz Remes]

:o

So I guess I'm right then? Good to have that confirmed, I've always thought that was how it worked.

Technically yes. See my post above for the explanation on why clubs at the start of the game produce newgens that match their current level quite well usually.

[santy001]

Funny thing is, I complained to the researchers this summer there is too many talented youngsters in the game and too many good players coming through. Most clubs don't produce their own players, look at how many players who used to be at Man Utd are at other premiership clubs, championship clubs and below. You'd be amazed at how many talented youngsters there is in the database to start with.

[The Welsh Lad]

sometimes is just looking at the attributes not the Star Ratings

[snootyjim]

You've got to consider as well that there's a big delay with all of these things.

If you start off in the BSS, and get a 16 year old striker into your youth team, it might take him until he's 24 to really approach his full potential. In 8 years, you could've got promoted to the Championship.

What's the likelihood of the BSS youngster from the BSS quality academy lighting up the Championship?

[BiggusD]

Yeah, but as mentioned above, for any able manager starting off in the lower leagues, the Academy is useless the first 10-15 seasons. Even for a mid-table EPL club having average youth facilities what comes up the first 10 years will be useless when the plan is to be become the best and biggest club in the history of football, and usually 3-4 seasons are enough to reach the top. After that you need to win everything every year for 20 years in order to regularly produce youngsters that could become Leading PL players (I have never seen one come out of my own academy because I only played 10 seasons of my Las Palmas game before it crashed).

If the newgen attributes were less random, the game wouldn't have to generate 40 supertalents worldwide a year. That is a highly inflated and unrealistic amount of world class talent, but it is necessary because the randomness makes 38 of them into total duds. What about generating 4-5 world class youngsters a year worldwide instead, the randomness being what type of player and personality they are rather than relying on luck and sheer numbers?

[7Bestie7]

Yeah, but as mentioned above, for any able manager starting off in the lower leagues, the Academy is useless the first 10-15 seasons. Even for a mid-table EPL club having average youth facilities what comes up the first 10 years will be useless when the plan is to be become the best and biggest club in the history of football, and usually 3-4 seasons are enough to reach the top. After that you need to win everything every year for 20 years in order to regularly produce youngsters that could become Leading PL players (I have never seen one come out of my own academy because I only played 10 seasons of my Las Palmas game before it crashed).

And that's not realistic? The way I see the youth side of the game is a long-term exponential growth. As a user, you spend the first 10-15 seasons at a club building it's foundations, moving it up through the leagues and improving the playing side of the team, facilities off the pitch and generally turning the club into the type of powerhouse you want. The first wave of players coming through your youth ranks at the end of season 1 are actually players who were attracted to the club at 5-10 years BEFORE you arrived and started the development. 5-10 years into a save game you should start seeing a slow growth of quality as the effects of your first few years success.

Of course by that time you're probably playing in a league 1, 2 or 3 places above that level. 10-15 years into a save and the growth should start to pick up as the level of the youngsters getting drawn to your team improves as the legacy of your success grows. At some point the impact of your successes has completely "deleted" the past history of the club from the youth in your club's catchment and you should start seeing a rise in the number of decent players being brought through.

However if you're Oldham or Tranmere then that's not going to help much. Not only would your reputation and successes need to be greater than Manchester United, City, Liverpool et al in the same geographical area but it would have to be so on a 10-15 year minimum window for you to start bringing in the youngsters who would otherwise be going to those academies. The trouble is, most users want the best players after getting to the EPL, winning it, winning the Champions League all within 10 years or so when other clubs have a most stronger foundation of success than they do.

If the newgen attributes were less random, the game wouldn't have to generate 40 supertalents worldwide a year. That is a highly inflated and unrealistic amount of world class talent, but it is necessary because the randomness makes 38 of them into total duds. What about generating 4-5 world class youngsters a year worldwide instead, the randomness being what type of player and personality they are rather than relying on luck and sheer numbers?

Do you really think 40 world class POTENTIAL players each year is highly inflated? That could be...3 English, 5 Spanish, 12 South American, 5 Dutch, 3 Portuguese plus 12 spread across other countries? Highly an inflated number per generation, especially considering that most of them will fade out before they reach their potential. There is a reason why the best players in the world list (I mean the truly great) is so small, that's because it's so difficult to turn talent into end product. This is seen across almost every walk of life where a good inflow of high quality students/prospects churning out only the smallest amount of polished winners. If you get 5 CA 160+ players out of a generational input of 40 World Class PA then I think you've lucked out.

[santy001]

The main problem with potentially good players in FM at the moment is that they can reach their potential far too easily. If a player has a PA of 180+ he will very often reach it, only though pure and abject neglect will he fail to have a high CA. Every year there is hundreds of players with the potential to make it at the top, very few do. Right now ever Premiership side will have an academy with about 5 - 10 players who are signed or brought through as first year scholars who they think can make the grade. This is 100 - 200 players in the premiership alone, very few of these players will, but across 10 years there is somewhere between 1000 - 2000 players who look like they could be good enough for the premiership.

On FM during this time if a player looks good enough to make the premiership, he will be. Stat distribution is irrelevant, in terms of CA he will be better. One reason why it takes so long to build facilities up is because if its too fast then either other clubs have to degrade faster or you will end up with a game even more saturated with super-players. The top sides in the game have CA-16 (11 first team players, 5 subs) averages of about 160. Get 10 years into the game and if you're winning competitions it will probably be 170 or above. Checking with the editor on FM09 my team's CA-16 average was 187 (15 years in). All but one of my starting 11 was over 190 CA. Training hasn't changed much since then so the same problems will persist.

Right now though if you got 40 World Class potential players, by the time they get to 25 I think about 30 of those 40 would be world class.

[BiggusD]

Actually I read on here that around 40 newgens will have 190+ PA, over 100 180+ and 500 or so 170+ (which are all labeled "world class" in the game) IIRC. Someone ran a test game or ten, and that is 500 -every year-!

Even 10% of those don't become world class players. The real figure is closer to 1%, making 50 world-class players exist at the same time over a 10-year period, which is a high number.

The rate of failure is enormous. I would say that hundreds of possible world-class players aren't promoted from academies every year in RL.

Just to make sure I am not misunderstood: most of those 170+ PA players aren't thought by scouts to be that promising. The reason for that is that they won't have the mental attributes and personality needed to reach their potentials since those are randomized. The number of attributes needed to be "right" in order for a player to develop without tutoring is huge, so that is why the number of youngsters with high PA is so high.

Edit: I am not arguing for a higher number of world-class players, I am arguing for a smaller number of generated players who are less randomized, which would reduce the need for sheer numbers!

[whilewolf]

I'm not sure why you think this isn't realistic. Surely it takes time to build a youth system with a good reputation that finds and develops players like that. It's not a "factory" where you can just throw money at the problem and then turn the volume up to "11" for instant improvement in output. Even young players can decide for themselves which club's youth system they want to play for, so there is always competition for young players and the human manager cannot just go out and force the best youngsters of a generation to join his youth system over other clubs.

The reason why clubs tend to initially produce newgens that are projected to be good enough to play on that level is because the club resources, facilities etc. are set like that in the starting DB. Yes, there can be clubs that produce newgens with better PA's than expected for their level more often than other clubs. Just like in real life, these clubs have good youth systems compared to their level and likely fund much of their budgets by selling the best youngsters coming through the system every now and then.

The fact that there are clubs who choose to maintain youth facilities that consistently produce players who can be sold to bigger clubs at higher levels shows that it is possible to do IRL. In FM you either need to take control of one of these clubs or spend four seasons treading water in the same league building up your facilities level by level. It may be realistic but it isn't much fun.

[grep]

Let me disagree.

I am the kind of player who likes to bring a League 2 team to the top of the Premier and the top of Europe.

Of course to do that at least 12-15-20 years are necessary.

I subito upgrade my youth facilities to top and I have at least 1 or 2 youth coach of good quality. Even better when years pass by.

Well If I do that for 20 years and if I do that since FM 2007 and I have never received a single player with at least 2 double digits ( average 5-6-7 each stat ) I come to the conclusion the youth facilities are useless.

Maybe I have been unlucky but 20 years per 4-5 editions of FM without a decent youngster, well, I come to the conclusion that there is a routine who prevent the player to have good younsters if he is performing much more above the expectations of the board, a behaviour that, the very first year apart, I tend to do quite often.

[Riz Remes]

Maybe I have been unlucky but 20 years per 4-5 editions of FM without a decent youngster, well, I come to the conclusion that there is a routine who prevent the player to have good younsters if he is performing much more above the expectations of the board, a thing that the very first year apart, I tend to do quite often.

And I can categorically deny that there is any code to prevent very good youngsters from appearing at any clubs based on how they are doing. In fact, there is actually code in place to make it more likely for better newgens to occasionally appear at human clubs, just to make the game a bit more fun (at the expense of realism) for human managers

[grep]

And I can categorically deny that there is any code to prevent very good youngsters from appearing at any clubs based on how they are doing. In fact, there is actually code in place to make it more likely for better newgens to occasionally appear at human clubs, just to make the game a bit more fun (at the expense of realism) for human managers

So you are basically saying that it is only a matter of luck ?

After around 100 years total without a decent youngster I tend to be pragmatic instead. I guess that the vast majority of FM player who post their young gems are managing Manchester United or similar teams.

I am the one who choose small teams, the ones who pertain to unlucky men I guess.

[Kanukki]

Most clubs don't produce their own players, look at how many players who used to be at Man Utd are at other premiership clubs, championship clubs and below. You'd be amazed at how many talented youngsters there is in the database to start with.

Naturally, the current trend is for the bigger clubs (ManU, Madrid, etc) to raid the youth systems of smaller clubs for their best prospects. Equally naturally, the amount of competition for starting places in these big clubs means that not all prospects will develop well there, and many of these end up being sold back to clubs around the same level as where they started (in some cases the very same club). Glad to hear from the podcast that this 'development roadblock' is being addressed in the game.

[Lazaru5]

So you are basically saying that it is only a matter of luck ?

After around 100 years total without a decent youngster I tend to be pragmatic instead. I guess that the vast majority of FM player who post their young gems are managing Manchester United or similar teams.

I am the one who choose small teams, the ones who pertain to unlucky men I guess.

I got a regen in my Hereford save when we were still in League One

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/266217-My-best-ever-youth-regen...-what-would-you-do

He's now a "Leading Star for any Championship team" after only one season in League One and he's tearing up the Championship (or was, the save crash-dumped, not sure how far back I've got to go when/if I play the save again)

[grep]

That player is let's say 100 times better than my best I ever had considering 100 years of gaming, among latest FM series.

You have been extremely lucky, I have never seen anything with double digits within 100 years among my youngsters coming in the beginning of the season, even when I was within top Premier positions.

Lucky you !!!!

BTW I managed Colchester, Southampton etc.. etc,... these are hopeless teams I know that but I like them even if FM engine doesn't consider them cool enough even after promotions and european won cups........

The FM reputation system should be informed about promotions and various competitions good results...

[7Bestie7]

So you are basically saying that it is only a matter of luck ?

After around 100 years total without a decent youngster I tend to be pragmatic instead. I guess that the vast majority of FM player who post their young gems are managing Manchester United or similar teams.

I am the one who choose small teams, the ones who pertain to unlucky men I guess.

Actually, that's 20 years five times. Since each game has different coding for it's newgens, you can't really lump the entire timespan into one large group. I'm not being pedantic here but it's a legitimate error in your complaint.

[grep]

Actually, that's 20 years five times. Since each game has different coding for it's newgens, you can't really lump the entire timespan into one large group. I'm not being pedantic here but it's a legitimate error in your complaint.

You are not pedantic mate, no problem.

Different versions have different codes I know that but just for this reason I should have hit at least one or few.

Am I the only one BTW ?????

[Keyzer Soze]

My experience with the FM2011 newgen's leads me not to be disappointed with the quality of them. In fact, in all the saves I made (and at least three of them had over 12 seasons) always existed newgens with great quality.

What worries me are the nations where the newgens come from. Because in all my long saves, there was a significant reduction in quality of players from nations like Brazil, Argentina, Spain, Portugal. On the other hand, nations from african continent rise with amazing players.

This situation leads to world cup finals played by nations like Marocco or Congo.

Altough i can understand that african nations can produce quality player, irl this happens from time to time. And when it happens we see one player from one nation... not five or six top quality players from one african nation.

In the last U20 world cup, we all seen the same traditional nations dominating the competition, but in FM2011 in all my saves i saw a complete "revolutuion" in worldwide football.

[milnerpoint]

My experience with the FM2011 newgen's leads me not to be disappointed with the quality of them. In fact, in all the saves I made (and at least three of them had over 12 seasons) always existed newgens with great quality.

What worries me are the nations where the newgens come from. Because in all my long saves, there was a significant reduction in quality of players from nations like Brazil, Argentina, Spain, Portugal. On the other hand, nations from african continent rise with amazing players.

This situation leads to world cup finals played by nations like Marocco or Congo.

Altough i can understand that african nations can produce quality player, irl this happens from time to time. And when it happens we see one player from one nation... not five or six top quality players from one african nation.

In the last U20 world cup, we all seen the same traditional nations dominating the competition, but in FM2011 in all my saves i saw a complete "revolutuion" in worldwide football.

Do you have the African nations loaded? I am yet to see any real good African players in my game 20 odd seasons in, there are a couple of very good Ivory Coast players but that's about it.

[Keyzer Soze]

Do you have the African nations loaded? I am yet to see any real good African players in my game 20 odd seasons in, there are a couple of very good Ivory Coast players but that's about it.

No! that's the point! In all my saves i loaded Portugal, England, Spain, Italy, France, Netherlands, Germany, Brazil, Argentina. No african nations.

[7Bestie7]

You are not pedantic mate, no problem.

Different versions have different codes I know that but just for this reason I should have hit at least one or few.

Am I the only one BTW ?????

I think the number of 180+ players I've had has been really small over the years but I've had what I would consider a decent number of youngsters whose potential has been of a decent/good premiership standard. They might not end up being world beaters in regards to pure ability but their attributes are definitely high enough to perform over an entire season and then make a good transfer fee from them. For the most part this is what I consider is a good youth system even for a club like Manchester United.

If you look at the output of United's academy starting in 99, the biggest names to break through were Brown, O'Shea, Richardson, Eagles, Shawcross, Gibson and Evans (let's forget Pique and Rossi for now). "Solid" players who have helped finance their development two or three times over with trophies and transfer fees. Throw in the sheer number of Champions/League 1 players who were moved on for various reason and you have a solid youth system which has helped the first team over the last 13 years. Even now with Cleverley and Welbeck, the jury is still out on just how much of an impact they'll have for the club. None of these players are what we might consider having extremely high PA even if as very young players they might have been given so in previous FMs.

What about Ajax? Even that famed academy has dried up in regards to purely world class talent to where the production line has slowed to a crawl. And before Barcelona is mentioned, I'll point out that after Xavi, the only TRUE world class players from their youth system has been Iniesta, Messi and now potentially Thiago. Everyone else has been solidly good players boosting the superstars. Gio Dos Santos flopped, Bojan isn't anywhere near his stats from a youngster and Pedro has as many off days as he has on in regards to quality output. Considering the fact Messi was taken from another club's academy, that means it's only really Iniesta since what...99?

It's not just rare to have an entire generation of players coming through who are world class potential (and who make it), it's a miracle in real life.

[whilewolf]

In 17 seasons With Colchester I have had one player who has turned into a squad player for Premiership relegation battlers. He came through when I was in the championship although his a good defender his technically very limited, slow and not very good in the air.

I have another player created three seasons ago who is tipped as a great prospect. He is a AM\CM he has some very good stats but can't finish and has no flair so I don't think I will be playing him as an AM. If he plays as a CM he isn't going to be much use defensively thanks to his 3 for Marking. Add to those defects 2 for jumping.

17 seasons and two useful players both hampered by their attribute distribution.

[grep]

In 17 seasons With Colchester I have had one player who has turned into a squad player for Premiership relegation battlers. He came through when I was in the championship although his a good defender his technically very limited, slow and not very good in the air.

I have another player created three seasons ago who is tipped as a great prospect. He a AM\CM he has some very good stats but can't finish and has no flair so I don't think I will be playing him as an AM. If he plays as a CM he isn't going to be much use defensively thanks to his 3 for Marking. Add to those defects 2 for jumping.

17 seasons and two useful players both hampered by their attribute distribution.

17 seasons and 1 decent youngster.

You are not unlucky like me but 1 decent youngster among 17 years is definitely inadeguate.

I also bet you have top facilities .......

We should let Miles know that lower leagues teams youngsters are not an option even after 50 years.

Why ???

[stevie_G_32201]

Ive never really had a first team quality player come through my acadamy at liverpool, bought in plenty from other clubs granted but nobody of a first team quality from my own

[Lazaru5]

Ive never really had a first team quality player come through my acadamy at liverpool, bought in plenty from other clubs granted but nobody of a first team quality from my own

This is why you're not getting any through your youth system, because you're buying in the "best of the best" your kids have no chance to prove themselves good enough, you won't let them... at the end of the day, a 3 star ability player is a first-team regular (or can be if you let them be) so a youngster with 3 star potential is a GOOD player but they might never be Messi so you discard them as "not good enough" when really it's that they're "not good enough FOR YOU"!

[stevie_G_32201]

This is why you're not getting any through your youth system, because you're buying in the "best of the best" your kids have no chance to prove themselves good enough, you won't let them... at the end of the day, a 3 star ability player is a first-team regular (or can be if you let them be) so a youngster with 3 star potential is a GOOD player but they might never be Messi so you discard them as "not good enough" when really it's that they're "not good enough FOR YOU"!

Your missing the point, the potential just isnt there. Its not that im not giving the youth a chance, i could play them as much as i wanted but they wont progress if they have no potential.

[Lazaru5]

Your missing the point, the potential just isnt there. Its not that im not giving the youth a chance, i could play them as much as i wanted but they wont progress if they have no potential.

Then how come my Hereford youth team has supplied a future WK, and at least 5 players who will play some part in the Championship with my team over 4 seasons even with our limited recruitment? You are expecting too much, the players are definitely there - well, they are in my save... maybe it's your tactics?

[Harper]

I feel my current save (and squad) is loaded with pretty good and well balanced regens. But maybe I'm just lucky.

Now, I haven't gotten these in through my youth set-up, but scouring the world with scouts.

I think there are three players that were generated into my U-18 team that might make it. They have the right balance of attributes and the coaches say they have the potential, but we'll see what happens.

[thehutchenator]

Fact is that in my experience you have to put good youngsters into the first team for them to realise potential fully. I always start as Adelaide United (no cheating with the dB), have only ever played 3 games. In my first I became manager of Inter and had no youth coming through because I couldn't play them in first team. In second game went to Tottenham and had at least 1 superstar from the academy, but I was playing him in the first team from the age of 17 (not a superstar at 17 but as a winger had good attributes for technique, pace, dribbling, crossing and decisions)!

Currently still with Adelaide United and am managing Australia. I just take the best underage players and am able to play them. Being Aussies they never make superstar category but that is realistic. I have generated some very good players.

My affilated clubs are rubbish and after culling them back I asked for a new affiliate - one that I had taken at least 4 players from. Board told me to stick it (maybe because it was from a rival club's region).

A youth academy is a hard ask. Very few real life organisations are able to successfully run a youth academy (West Ham had a golden period I believe, and of course Barca has been documented). For example the Australian FFA don't have a decent Academy system! The biggest problem is what league does your academy squad play in? Can they play? No point just training players - they need to be playing.

Perhaps you could have an academy model where the young players from your area playing for lower league teams are 'in your academy'. Bringing a Brazilian over from South America is not exactly an academy project - that is buying a prospective player and in my opinion that is different.

Computer power is ever increasing and with 64-bit operating systems becoming the norm we have just seen a recent leap in performance. Is FM able to take advantage? To run a realistic youth academy function in the game there would need to be an order of magnitude increase in dB size because for realism these academy players would need to be producing in Junior/Amatuer games.

[The Welsh Lad]

Computer power is ever increasing and with 64-bit operating systems becoming the norm we have just seen a recent leap in performance. Is FM able to take advantage? To run a realistic youth academy function in the game there would need to be an order of magnitude increase in dB size because for realism these academy players would need to be producing in Junior/Amatuer games.

Whilst this might be the norm for computers, unfourtunatly it has been brought up in the past, that the data SI has recieved from its customers that the majority are still running on 32-bit, untill the balance swings the other way FM wont be able to take advantage.

[Guest aaron70]

How many clubs in the world have these international academies??

[Guest]

Stop spending billions on gems.. you will be surprised with the results.