3-5-2 in development

[Andy 23]

This is my idea: 3 centre backs, flat 5 across midfield, target man and partner up front. Rigid, deep defensive line, man-marking, no pressing.

The centre backs play direct balls to the target man (ticked, delivery to feet). With his back to goal, his options will be to play it backwards to midfield or to the wings, or play in the striker.

The three in central midfield should outnumber (or equal) the opponent's midfield, the centre of the three may be the free one (if the other two are marking their two and vice versa) so he's able to make the most plays. Passing mixed.

The wingers are to bomb on (Attacking mentality, Run With Ball, Crossing and Try Through Balls often), receiving passes from the central midfielders and the target man. Tackling Hard because I don't want opposition wingers to go past them with no full backs so it's better to give away free kicks.

Defensive line is deep to reduce the space in the corners the opposition can play diagonal balls into where I have no full backs to defend. This should also suit my counter attack threat, giving my wingers and striker space to run into when we get the ball forward quickly.

This setup should make it hard for the opposition to hurt me. Every midfielder and forward in their team should be marked so they can't easily pass through my team. No need to press or tackle hard, my players just stay tight on theirs so they will lose possession. Then, I get the ball up quickly to my target man who has three attackers with him looking to run forward, and if he can't get the ball straight to one of them, he can play it backwards to my three in midfield who can then play a forward pass to an attacker already making a run.

This tactic is in development and I don't expect to see results until season 2 when the familiarity levels are full and I have built a squad suitable - all of the roles are specialised. Defenders need the usual defensive skills, and Composure and Passing to make the first ball forward a good one. Midfielders need good Stamina, Marking, Teamwork and Tackling to dominate the middle of the field. Wingers need Pace, Dribbling, Crossing and Off The Ball. Target man needs First Touch, Off The Ball and physical attributes (I see him as essential so adequate backups are also needed). Other striker needs Pace, Off The Ball and Finishing.

Any suggestions for what you would implement (in Football Manager terms) to make this work?

A few questions of my own:

How do I get my midfielders to pass to the wings? Should I focus team passing down both flanks? I don't want my centre backs passing to the wings though, they must only pass to the Target Man.

What role should I use for my striker? I think he should be running from deep and not as advanced as my Target Man. This would give the Target Man someone close to lay it off to first time if he needs to, and if the Target Man has time to control and play a through ball, the striker can make a timed run instead of already being on the shoulder of the defender and marked or offside when the Target Man passes the through ball.

Should my 'spare man' in defence and midfield be on Zonal marking instead of Man marking? eg. If the opposition has 2 strikers, my DCL and DCR would Man mark one each. Should the central DC be on Zonal? Same in central midfield. If it's 3 v 3 then all Man marking, but if the opposition only has 2 central midfielders should 2 of mine be Man marking and the free man be Zonal marking?

Pitch size is something I've never paid attention to. What would be best suited for this?

[Andy 23]

Some fundamental problems I'm seeing:

Centre backs and goalkeeper are passing between themselves and to midfielders, not hitting it directly to the target man.

Not enough passes going to wingers. Wingers not taking every opportunity to run at the full back.

My players are supposed to man-mark tightly. Instead the opponents are left in enough space to receive the ball. My central midfielders are guilty of doing this, while my wingers don't appear to be marking at all.

Will these things be fixed once the team is completely familiar with the tactic? Or when I have ideal players for the jobs? Or is FM just not able to simulate what I'm trying to apply?

[helemaalnicks]

The striker that receives the ball will need enough passing options, and with such limited creative freedom this'll be hard. Therefore your wingers and your other striker probably all need free roles. However, giving your wingers free roles will make your defense extremely vulnerable. Most european teams play with 4 @ the back, and there is a reason for this, one-on-one defending doesn't work. Even the more limited modern attacker is able to beat his man, and that's all it takes if your opponent is defending one-on-one (quote: If it's 3 v 3 then all Man marking) and this is really, really bad defending.

The only european team that plays 3 cb's, is napoli, and I wouldn't call their formation 3-5-2. It's more of a typical modern-italy thing, where everybody hangs back and defends, while individual class of a couple of players will get them goals, while the pure stamina of the fullback/wingers makes sure the sides are covered.

Your tactic could work in countries in which football isn't that modern (USA for example). If your opponents rely on physical strength to score, rather then creativity, it could easily work as you say, but the main problem is simply the 3-at-back with no defensive wingers. You'll not just be vulnerable on the wings (like you say), but you'll be vulnerable in the centre as well, since 3 people cannot cover the entire back line, so anyone with the ball approaching the back line will tear it out of shape (you can't just let him pass either, cause he'll be face-2-face with your goalie).

You can play 3-5-2, but then you can't rely on your wingers to offer offensive creativity. You'll need them to cover the back line, and with an att. duty and free role, this is simply not going to happen. You'll have to rely on them as wing backs (simple crossing now and then) and let the real football come from other positions.

I'd say your best bet is play the 'wingers' as automatic defensive wingers to cover the opposing wingers (and move 'em back 1 strata if you play against AMR/L) and play two attacking midfielders and one supporting midfielder to destroy your opposition through the centre. Obviously, this tactic is completely different from yours, but the thing is, you want to play a tactic that heavily relies on attacking from the wings, while only playing 2 players on the wings (while typically teams play 4 players on the wings), it does not make sense to me.

Hope I helped.

[helemaalnicks]

Some fundamental problems I'm seeing:

Centre backs and goalkeeper are passing between themselves and to midfielders, not hitting it directly to the target man.

Not enough passes going to wingers. Wingers not taking every opportunity to run at the full back.

My players are supposed to man-mark tightly. Instead the opponents are left in enough space to receive the ball. My central midfielders are guilty of doing this, while my wingers don't appear to be marking at all.

Will these things be fixed once the team is completely familiar with the tactic? Or when I have ideal players for the jobs? Or is FM just not able to simulate what I'm trying to apply?

Things will not be better when your team is familiar with the tactic. Maybe the wingers understand that it doesn't make sense for them to go forward all the time, even without you telling them... They're covering the entire wing though, even barcelona uses 2 players per wing for this, so you're asking way too much from them.

Your centrebacks don't hit the target man, possibly their passing setting is too low. I don't like direct football, but that is obviously what you want to play, you'll need to go as direct as possible, and with very little creative freedom, so they won't try to pass short ever.

Your marking going wrong, is probably another consequence of your wingers having too much to do. If your wingers are attacking, how are they supposed to man mark opposing wingers? That wouldn't work. If your opponent's wingers are free, who should your midfielders mark, their wingers or their midfielders? They outnumber you, so of course they'll be able to receive the ball.

Also, I think it's pretty normal for opposing teams to be able to play the ball to their midfielders. That is not really something you want to try to stop from happening, because even against barcelona teams can play the ball to the midfielders. Ideally, you want your holding midfielders to make sure sneijder, van der vaart and ozil don't receive the ball. Asking 3 midfielders to manmark 2 opposing midfielders and 2 wingers tightly wont work.

Again, it's just a matter of football logic. You think 3 vs. 3 is solid, I think 3 at the back can be solid, but that's because it has an extra defender, not an extra midfielder. If you play with 3 defenders, and no defending players whatsoever on the wings, you can man mark tight, play 3 holding midfielders, it won't solve your problems in the back.

EDIT: one more thing about the wingers marking: try to look at kuyt when he's deployed as a winger. He is without a doubt the best player for the role you are describing (which is described as impossible to fill in). Kuyt has the stamina, the basic defensive abilities, and the aggression needed to go at the opposing winger. However, he still only doubles up on the opposing winger on his own half, you'll rarely see him go after the opposing winger (unless the liverpool wingback made it into the opposing area on the previous attack).

Kuyt is praised here for his ability to take a full back out of the game. Now, this might seem meaningless, against maicon it can still be usefull. However, letting kuyt cover an entire flank is still not even remotely realistic. He would be a wingback, he wouldn't get in the area to try to score goals, he would just be an ordinary defender. It would make more sense to use any full/wing back for that position.

[Andy 23]

Thanks for taking the time to reply. To pick you up on this:

Most european teams play with 4 @ the back, and there is a reason for this, one-on-one defending doesn't work. Even the more limited modern attacker is able to beat his man, and that's all it takes if your opponent is defending one-on-one (quote: If it's 3 v 3 then all Man marking) and this is really, really bad defending.

How is that different to the other end where my two strikers are against their two centre backs? They've got two full backs, but they have to deal with my two wingers. If the opposition is playing 4-3-3 against my 3-5-2, yes it will be 3v3 at my end but it will also be 4v4 (or 7v7) at their end.

[Andy 23]

Your centrebacks don't hit the target man, possibly their passing setting is too low. I don't like direct football, but that is obviously what you want to play, you'll need to go as direct as possible, and with very little creative freedom, so they won't try to pass short ever.

Their passing setting is 19, and very little creative freedom, yet they pass it around my half, or even hit it long to the OTHER striker!

Your marking going wrong, is probably another consequence of your wingers having too much to do. If your wingers are attacking, how are they supposed to man mark opposing wingers? That wouldn't work. If your opponent's wingers are free, who should your midfielders mark, their wingers or their midfielders? They outnumber you, so of course they'll be able to receive the ball.

No, this happens when my wingers are in defensive positions.

Also, I think it's pretty normal for opposing teams to be able to play the ball to their midfielders. That is not really something you want to try to stop from happening, because even against barcelona teams can play the ball to the midfielders. Ideally, you want your holding midfielders to make sure sneijder, van der vaart and ozil don't receive the ball. Asking 3 midfielders to manmark 2 opposing midfielders and 2 wingers tightly wont work.

But what I am trying to do is not allow their midfielders to face forwards when they get the ball. I want my markers on their backs so that the only unmarked players in the opposition are their defenders who aren't capable of hurting me with the ball. If they resort to hitting it long, my defenders outnumber their strikers and I can start an attack.

I appreciate that I might be asking my wingers to do too much for this to work, but there's other problems happening that I need answers in "FM terms" to solve. It may be that I need my wingers to stay back more, almost like full backs, when I'm playing against a 4-4-2, and make my spare central midfielder more attacking when the ball goes up to the target man, and when I'm against a 4-3-3 then I can use my wingers and turn it into 4-3-3 v 3-3-4!

[helemaalnicks]

Thanks for taking the time to reply. To pick you up on this:

How is that different to the other end where my two strikers are against their two centre backs? They've got two full backs, but they have to deal with my two wingers. If the opposition is playing 4-3-3 against my 3-5-2, yes it will be 3v3 at my end but it will also be 4v4 (or 7v7) at their end.

The difference is, 4v4 does work. Champions league KO have just been played, but tonight we will see some europa league action. Now, some teams are behind, and some teams will be behind in the 75th minute. They will play more direct, they will play with more attacking wingers, with 2 strikers, 4-2-4 typically, yet usually their odds to turn the game around aren't very big. That's because the opposing team has 4 in the back. The pitch is only 60-70 metres wide, so 4 players should be able to cover this. The defending team will make sure the midfielders are very close to the defenders, making sure it's very hard for the attacking strikers to receive the ball (let alone go past the opposing centreback). With 3 at the back (and 3 holding midfielders in front of them) there will be 4/3 = 1.34x more space for the attacking players to get free in (with their free roles, this is the setting that will make sure 3 vs. 3 doesn't work, while 3 vs. 3 would work against 3 peter crouches). 1.34x is acres of space. 3 defenders cannot cover 3 attackers in the same way that 4 defenders can cover 4 attackers.

Especially because 1 of your attackers is a winger, who needs to beat 2 men to reach the goalie, while their attackers need to beat 1 man. Of course your wingers could cross, but we all know crossing before beating a man is hard, and they have two players on the wings, so even if your winger takes the time to trick their full back, his winger might've already doubled up on yours (a common defending trick you'll often see when playing 442 vs 442 or 433 vs 442 or 433 vs 433) making your life even harder.

Football tactics is not about calculus, about 1 man against one man. It's all about space, restricting it for your opponent, and creating it for yourself. Try a test game, and play against 442 with any formation with 4 at the back. Then try to find out which opposing striker is going deep to get the ball, and mark him tightly with one of your centrebacks. Your centreback will chase him everywhere on the pitch, pulling your defensive line out of shape. Your opponents will create lots of chances, especially on through balls on that one lone striker that finds himself in acres of space because he's only marked by 1 centreback. They might also NOT create loads of chances, if the striker you're marking is the only free role, and will be the only free role for the entire match. However, this would be a clear mistake on AI manager's part.

[Andy 23]

Interesting point about the space covered by 3 and 4 players.

Football tactics is not about calculus, about 1 man against one man. It's all about space, restricting it for your opponent, and creating it for yourself. Try a test game, and play against 442 with any formation with 4 at the back. Then try to find out which opposing striker is going deep to get the ball, and mark him tightly with one of your centrebacks. Your centreback will chase him everywhere on the pitch, pulling your defensive line out of shape. Your opponents will create lots of chances, especially on through balls on that one lone striker that finds himself in acres of space because he's only marked by 1 centreback.

Two points:

1) This tactic is completely designed to restrict space for my opponent, mainly my opponent's midfielders. They have no time on the ball or space to receive or use it in because my midfielders are on their backs. Their only real option then is to pass back to unmarked defenders, who can't hurt me.

2) You've just triggered something that I hadn't yet considered. I have my defensive line set as deep as possible. However, this would in fact only apply to the one/two defenders on zonal marking (depending on if the opponent has two or one striker). The man-marking defenders are not staying deep, they're following their man around. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. Perhaps I could even put my spare defender in the sweeper position. If the striker does break free from his marker he isn't presented with only the goalkeeper to beat, he has another defender sitting way back.

[helemaalnicks]

@ your last reply (can't be bothered quoting any):

The defenders hitting it long, and consistenly to one player, will be tough. Maybe they're not even trying to play it to the other striker, maybe they're just 'clearing' in such cases (should be in the commentary).

About the wingers in defending positions:

They're not in defending positions. Period. If they have attacking roles and are in ML/R, they're in attacking positions. They might be 'thinking' they're doing fine, because they're tightly marking opposing full backs. Even a defensive support winger in ML/MR will typically still mark the opposing full back, you can counter this on match day, by selecting marking->specific->opposing winger. I sincerely hope you were already using this feature frequently, otherwise any formation except 442 against 442/433 will fail regardless of how well it was set up before match day.

If you place the wingers in the wingback slots (however, I still prefer the full back slots, giving them wing back settings) they will typically defend against your opponents' wingers.

when I'm against a 4-3-3 then I can use my wingers and turn it into 4-3-3 v 3-3-4!

I already explained that the latter is not going to work. You can't counter 4-3-3 with 3-3-4, it simply puts your team in a bad position defensively, while defending against 4 with 4 players is simply typical for modern football.

[Andy 23]

About the wingers in defending positions:

They're not in defending positions. Period. If they have attacking roles and are in ML/R, they're in attacking positions. They might be 'thinking' they're doing fine, because they're tightly marking opposing full backs. Even a defensive support winger in ML/MR will typically still mark the opposing full back, you can counter this on match day, by selecting marking->specific->opposing winger. I sincerely hope you were already using this feature frequently, otherwise any formation except 442 against 442/433 will fail regardless of how well it was set up before match day.

If you place the wingers in the wingback slots (however, I still prefer the full back slots, giving them wing back settings) they will typically defend against your opponents' wingers.

I've already condeded that I may be asking too much of my wingers for them to do both jobs effectively and, unless I'm playing against a narrow formation, their jobs may have to be restricted to defensive only. I will certainly try revising my tactic so that the DML, DMR, MCL and MCR are marking the opposition's four midfielders and using my spare MC as an attacking support.

I'm not using specific opponent marking. I would have to set that for 7 players at the start of every match and modify it whenever the opposition makes changes. That's far too mundane a task to do on a computer game.

[helemaalnicks]

1) This tactic is completely designed to restrict space for my opponent, mainly my opponent's midfielders.

Your opponent's wingers are the problem here. Even if they don't pose a direct threat, their presence will break this part of your defensive. If they receive the ball, your wingers are chasing after them (because they're too far up the pitch) and themidfielders start chasing them. This will have the same effect as my teststory about manmarking a deeplying tightly. It'll tear your team out of its defensive shape.

I think you shouldn't worry so much about minor details, just base your tactic on a solid defensive. 2 wingbacks (instead of wingers) should clear all your problems. You are from england I notice, maybe that's why you still mentioned the word sweeper (i'm sorry, but this is not the 70's, playing a top league with a sweeper at the back is really asking for trouble (through balls into even more space, behind the two markers), this is completely over the top. Just solid centrebacks should do what they do best. Hold the line (for offside trap thus space restricting purposes) and mark strikers.

The creativity, if you play 2 wingers instead of the usual 4, should come from midfielders and strikers. Your striker and 1 of your midfielders needs much creativity and a free role. This way, you could even easily play fluid, and rely on the back 5 to hold the line at all times, or play rigid like you suggested, and rely on two aggresive midfielders hassling the opposing midfielders.

As long as your defensive line

1. stays in shape, i.e. one line

2. marks opposing strikers

you'll be fine on defense.

[helemaalnicks]

I'm not using specific opponent marking. I would have to set that for 7 players at the start of every match and modify it whenever the opposition makes changes. That's far too mundane a task to do on a computer game.

There are tricks for this. If you don't ever use specific marking, you will encounter problems, for example, against inter. If you play 442 or 4231 against inter, the marking of your most defensive midfielder will still be an opponent MC, giving free roaming(!) sneijder(one of the best in the game) no opposition. I usually destroy inter, because I know one anchor/deeplying with tight man marking on sneijder will destroy their entire offensive plan. However, against inter, this is actually the only specific marking you need to do, the wingers can easily be dealt with by using zonal marking.

With 3-5-2 and no specific marking, I'd advice you to set the back 3 to zonal. If you rely on AI to pick the opponents for them, you'll be in a big mess against many formations.

Before we continue, what team are you actually managing? This info would help a lot. While your tactic sounds perfect for napoli (for obvious reasons) or any other italian team, in spain, or in england against man u or arsenal you'd run into trouble because of the opposing free roam settings.