Tactical Debate Two: The Advanced Forward

[wwfan]

This is the second thread in my attempt to discover how FM players translate FM roles into real life. I was pretty sure that the poacher thread would have a relatively high level of agreement. Consequently, I was happy to lead off with my own interpretation. However, as my interpretations are already part of the game and the Advanced Forward role is more tricky to define, I'm going to sit out this one and let the forum lead.

Feel free to follow the structure in the poacher thread or ignore it and impose your own.

So, what is an Advanced Forward?

[jaycar]

To me Torres could be said to be an advanced forward.

In game terms, the advanced forward is a more complete player than a poacher, he roams, and is expected to contribute more to general play.

Torres runs into the channels and can create his own chances, taking on his man and getting a shot in.

Or at least the early Liverpool version could

[RichieVilla]

What is an advanced forward - For me an advanced forward is someone who plays on the shoulder of the last defender. He will normally possess good dribbling ability and also high work rate, advanced forwards also make good use of wide areas to find space (rather than being solely in the box like a poacher). Clinical finishing is often an assest of the advanced forward.

Key attributes - Acceleration, Pace, Dribbling, finishing, composure, technique

Who is an advanced forward? - Luis Suarez - Suarez is an advanced forward in my eyes because of his immense dribbling and his pace, he can beat the last man and also has some trickery, he scores often despite his finishing not being what i would call world class.

Javier Hernandez - Chichorito plays on the shoulder of the defender, he is fast, agile and also possess clinical finishing, sometimes people may class him as poacher and he certainly has a natural ability to find the net but i think he is more of an advanced forward because of his work rate, decent but not super dribbling, range of goals and also his ability to beat his man.

Gabby Agbonlahor - Limited player in many areas who relies on pure pace to outstrip defenders, he is usually one of the most advanced players on the field and often drifts wide to find the ball, many would describe him as a ball pusher, meaning he will kick the ball past an opponent and run onto it, he also has a great desire to track back defensivley. His finishing is not what u would consider great but he can still weigh in with 10-15 goals

Side note - In FM i would prob play all 3 in poacher role because i feel it is the most effective role for a lone striker, in real life terms tho i would call these players advanced forwards.

[YBlade]

Ronaldo was perfect example of an advanced forward. During his time at Barcelona and Inter he did all what is required for this role with some flair of course. God.

[Hog]

Junior Hoilett

Nilmar

Sergio Araujo

Sturridge

Aguero

exciting players

[ham_aka_stam]

I would describe the Advanced Forward as the Poacher+ or the Modern Poacher.

He does everything the poacher does, except he is also happy to drop just infront of the opposition defence or move into wider positions to make something happen. As such he's more adept with the ball at his feet than just being an expert goalscorer. He's more creatively aware, can put in a cross, hold the ball up for others and has a greater passing ability to be able to reach them.

Personally I find the number of options for forwards in FM too high. You have the two "Limited" Forwards, the Poacher and the Target Man, then you have four more creative options, Advanced Forward, Deeplying Forward, Complete Forward and Trequartista. So knowing that those other options exist makes it hard to put someone entirely in one bracket.

Rooney's position in the 2009-2010 season could be referred to as Advanced Forward. He played predominantly in-line with the defence looking for penetration off the last man, be that receiving through balls into feet + applying a first touch and shot, or through meeting crosses from Nani, Giggs or Valencia. But importantly he retained all the skills he used when playing as a deeper/complete forward so still made passe and crosses himself.

I'd also consider Theirry Henry in his Arsenal pomp as an excellent example of the Advanced Forward. He often started wider, so was arguably an Inside Forward, but he had all the skills and abilities I've already mentioned, when he received the ball his first instinct is to drive at the defence with it and make something happen, but all with the main goal (pun not intended) of getting himself in the box to score. Whether this was by beating a man, playing an 1-2 with someone else, or by beating the keeper from range, didn't matter to him.

It's probably best to define the Complete forward as anyone who you can't fit into Deeplying or Advanced, someone who does both, like the Rooney of this season. Leaving Trequartista purely for the Extreme Advanced Playmaker types, who are given total freedom to do what they like.

In which case it could be argued that he dropped deep enough to be considered a Complete Forward. Hence the issue with the number of options.

[SCIAG]

I agree with the gist of ham's post, the advanced forward is probably the role the majority of strikers play and it is essentially a striker who can contribute a bit more to an attack than a poacher, but not as much as a very gifted complete forward.

In game play terms, I don't think there is much difference between the two roles at the moment.

[Smac]

Advanced Forward: The more advanced of a striking partnership.

I think the term is really only useful in a relative way. It says little about what the player is supposed to be doing (target man vs. poacher for example). Maybe it can say something about what the player isn't doing: He's not a poacher, nor a target man. He isn't sitting deep, nor is he taking on all kinds of striking positions. He's high up the pitch compared with his strike partner. Meh.

[wwfan]

My early reading around this suggested that many British teams tended to play with a big man / small man partnership, in which the big man was an FM target man and the small man a very mobile Advanced Forward. In contrast, was the creator / scorer, which was more commonly used in the continent, although some British teams also employed the system.

For example, I'd suggest that the first great Liverpool team had a TM / AF partnership (Toshack / Keegan) whereas the second great side was a DLF / Poacher (Dalglish / Rush). Man Utd's treble winning side also had a DLF / Poacher combo (Yorke or Sheringham / Cole or Solskjaer), with the added advantage of Sheringham also being an effective TM and Solskjaer, as shown in his later switch to the flanks, being able to offer more options and movement than a traditional poacher.

As such, contribution to all round play was the defining difference for me between the AF and the Poacher. Is that a fair interpretation?

[Fraser]

I'd suggest that another difference would be that it's difficult to play a poacher as a lone striker.

Take Torres as the example of an Advanced Forward, and a lone striker, and compare his actions to a target man, and how the roles allow you to define the opponents defensive strategy.

Torres is going to play on the last man, and be looking to use his pace and anticipation to get in behind the defence. He's also going to be happy to run across the defensive line to find space, be it between the centre backs, between centre back and full back or even outside the fullback (if necessary - he can always cut in once he gets the ball). What this means is, that for the opponent to nullify his threat, they will have to sit deep, and probably narrow their defensive line so the threat is pushed wide, into a less dangerous area.

A target man, as a lone striker, will play with their back to goal and look to hold the ball or bring other into plays. They will stay central, as the focal point/pivot of the attack. For the opposition defence to nullify the target man, they would be more likely to push the defensive line up, so that the midfield has less space to move into and support the target man. They can also spread the defence wider, as the target man is not looking to move into the spaces in behind.

I wouldn't say that the Advanced Forward necessarily contributes any more to team play, in comparison to the poacher, when he is on the ball, but he moves within a much wider area of the pitch and influences more of the opponents decisions.

[ham_aka_stam]

My early reading around this suggested that many British teams tended to play with a big man / small man partnership, in which the big man was an FM target man and the small man a very mobile Advanced Forward. In contrast, was the creator / scorer, which was more commonly used in the continent, although some British teams also employed the system.

For example, I'd suggest that the first great Liverpool team had a TM / AF partnership (Toshack / Keegan) whereas the second great side was a DLF / Poacher (Dalglish / Rush). Man Utd's treble winning side also had a DLF / Poacher combo (Yorke or Sheringham / Cole or Solskjaer), with the added advantage of Sheringham also being an effective TM and Solskjaer, as shown in his later switch to the flanks, being able to offer more options and movement than a traditional poacher.

As such, contribution to all round play was the defining difference for me between the AF and the Poacher. Is that a fair interpretation?

That's a good way of putting it. I always assumed the FM-way of saying bigman/smallman was target man/poacher.

Something esle that always confused me was that you can have a Deeplyling Forward on Attack Duty, I assumed a DLF would always been on Support, as otherwise he becomes an Advanced Forward.

[Bruce Higham]

I actually see the advanced forward role more like the games definition of a target man. Think of a large but mobile centre forward, who has more technical skills then the old style big lumbering brute, but less technical skills then suarez. Someone who is trying to get goals like a poacher but is more reliant on anticipation/vision/teamwork/physicals then pure pace.

[Shake Appeal]

Something esle that always confused me was that you can have a Deeplyling Forward on Attack Duty, I assumed a DLF would always been on Support, as otherwise he becomes an Advanced Forward.

I think it's more about where he looks to receive the ball. A DLF on Support comes deep or sits deep and looks to get the ball to feet and move it around to onrushing midfielders or a striker partner; a DLF on Attack comes deep or sits deep and looks to get the ball to then run at the defence (or take a long shot if he sees one).

Whereas both Advanced Forwards and Poachers are happier being pushed up against the line and trying to beat the offside trap. Both of them, and especially the Poacher, are foremost sniffing at goal, and trying to get forward. The DLF is more willing to drop off and see the game another way. That said, all three like to get the ball to feet and potentially take on defenders with pace, and the AF is the most rounded individual attacking threat, albeit without the same spectrum of creativity a DLF might have.

One of my favourite things about DLFs, and something I've trying to cultivate in a tactic using a DLF and two IFs at the moment, is their ability to cause defenders positional headaches -- how far can they afford to go to to keep up with their man, and at what point do they have to just let the player free between the lines? The 'false' nine is fascinating to me.

[Shake Appeal]

A poacher is a scalpel. A deep-lying forward is a knife in the dark. An advanced forward is a sword. A target man is a big ol' club.

(And a trequartista is nunchaku, obviously.)

[Marsupian]

I would say the poacher and advanced forward are very much alike. They both start from the last defender and often are supplied by throughballs and rely on pace to get to them first. They also drift wide in search of space.

The difference between the two is that the poacher is very much goal oriented while the advanced forward is more creative and will look to play in his teammates (often with crosses after they beat their man to the byline). If you have a striker with the pace or physique to play on the opponents defensive line and has the creativity and/or technical skills to play in his teammates the advanced forward is a great role for him. Obviously the core poaching attributes won't go wasted on him either.

btw. The advanced forward is a great tool to use if you want to create space in between the defense and midfield. His pace will make the space behind the defensive line a constant threat which will force the opponents defensive line back. This opens up space for your creative midfielders to do his magic. Another great way to use an advanced forward is along with a more traditional winger. The advanced forward will drift wide and double up on the opponents fullback. The pace of the winger and advanced forward together doubling up on the opponents fullback will often create dangerous situations for the opponent.

[ham_aka_stam]

A poacher is a scalpel. A deep-lying forward is a knife in the dark. An advanced forward is a sword. A target man is a big ol' club.

(And a trequartista is nunchaku, obviously.)

I love that.

I would say the poacher and advanced forward are very much alike. They both start from the last defender and often are supplied by throughballs and rely on pace to get to them first. They also drift wide in search of space.

The difference between the two is that the poacher is very much goal oriented while the advanced forward is more creative and will look to play in his teammates (often with crosses after they beat their man to the byline). If you have a striker with the pace or physique to play on the opponents defensive line and has the creativity and/or technical skills to play in his teammates the advanced forward is a great role for him. Obviously the core poaching attributes won't go wasted on him either.

That makes a lot of sense too.

[Mike_Cardinal]

This is likely to echo what others have said, but I'll put my thoughts here anyway. In the modern game, I think that the Advanced Forward is that rare player who, besides being the team's main goalscorer, is also a real attacking outlet. Whereas the Poacher is likely to be a far less talented in terms of their all-round game and ability to help set up other players, the Advanced Forward needs a little more creativity/flair/technical ability. I think of it from the perspective of other players in the team - when can you give the ball to a Poacher and hope for a positive contribution? Well, given that they are JUST a goalscorer (I know, I said just), really you only want them to be given the ball in that crucial attacking third of the pitch when there is a high chance of them getting a shot off on goal as soon as possible, this could be through a cross, cut back or through ball, but this player won't really be able to handle much more than a simple pass in the attempt to unlock the opposition's defence. However, if your goalscorer can you help you in this process, and is happy to receive the ball across the attacking third of the pitch and make something happen, then I would play them in an Advanced Forward role, giving them more options to roam, more creative freedom and the chance to run at the opponent or play a through ball. I think the instructions in the TC are fairly spot on here. Henry, Ronaldo, Aguero and Villa are all great examples of this type of player. Really, it's just a more talented Poacher, who you are giving license to do more than just score goals without worrying about them detracting from the flow of your attacking moves.

[noikeee]

Advanced forward = Giuseppe Rossi at Villarreal. Particularly with the "move into channels" setting.

Suarez, Aguero and Villa (Valencia's David Villa - Barcelona's Villa is more of an AML inside forward) are very good examples too. Top goalscorers but very creative players as well. Torres is moving into complete forward territory as he is rather decent in the air too. The advanced forward is typically more adept to play balls on the ground than on the air.

Differs from a deep-lying forward on attack role because they don't drop deep (moving often wide instead), and often play on the brink of offside, hence needing pace as a key attribute which doesn't apply to the deep-lying forward.

I think dribbling is a vital attribute for advanced forwards as well, I've seen it be very effective on the FM engine and it makes sense to me.

[BigHairyAndy]

I'm going to go ahead and use your format from the previous topic:

What is an advanced forward?: An advanced forward is the modern "leads the line" centre forward. Comfortable moving into channels and breaking the offside trap, always looking to make the centre backs turn, the advanced forward's job is - in NFL parlance - to "take the top off the defence" opening space in the short zones in front of the centre backs. Equally adept at finishing or setting up others, his role involves more selflessness and creativity than that of the poacher, and his workload is substantially higher. Often the advanced forward will find himself "chasing lost causes" as the ball over the top is used as an outlet to relieve pressure on a defence or midfield, and he requires the technical ability to hold the ball up or distribute it when he does get there.

Player: Kenny Miller

Clubs played for: Hibernian, Stenhousemuir, Rangers, Wolverhampton Wanderers, Celtic, Derby County, Rangers, Bursaspor, Cardiff City

Playing Strengths / Weaknesses: Kenny Miller's greatest asset is his workrate. Often isolated up front for Scotland or Rangers, he functions as an outlet for his team - constantly working the channels and looking for balls over the top to take pressure off his teammates. Relatively pacey with good anticipation, off the ball movement, and acceleration, he also possesses the technical ability to maintain possession even without being supremely technically gifted. His finishing is not that of a McCoist or a Kris Boyd, but he scores goals nonetheless and contributes far more goals for his teammates than any poacher.

Why he fits the role: This is exactly the role Miller fulfils for his country, time and time again.