The Barcelona Style: My Interpretation

[Razerious]

Wow. Thanks isignedupfornorealreason (& wwfan + everyone else involved in this thread). I created a tactic using your updated instructions, and it's working out great for my OM team. Playing some great football.

[martywigham]

To sum up the topic;

Thanks for putting this all together in one post so I don't have to keep reading through the whole thread.

I've still been pretty much using the setup I posted in #187, however the newer roles seem to be working a lot better in the latest version. I've also tried changing the philosophy to Very Fluid to see what effect that has as it makes sense for the Barca approach of everyone contributing the team ethos of keeping possession, but I'm not sure about it.

I've been thinking about trying to include the use of PIs as well to reflect the PPMs that the Barca players have when using the tactic for my Newcastle team, but I want to try and get settled on using the correct roles first.

[Vizzini]

Have anyone tried this setup?

Worked briliantly for me so far, the closest thing I've come to a consistent Barca under Pep style.

PI's are close down more for ST, AMR, AML, MCR, MCL and Close Down Less for the CB's, GK has take short kicks.

[RTHerringbone]

My long term save is becoming stale, so I've decided to have a look at managing a truly elite side for the first time on FM15; Barcelona seems a decent place to start. The caveat? Since cancelling my Sky TV subscription 2 or 3 years ago, I rarely get to see Barca play, so a lot of what I do will be based on "the power of Google"; I'll list the sources. What have I gleaned so far? Bear with me.....

Formation Not quite as simple as I expected, when thinking of how to translate this into a FM world. Barcelona attack in what FM regards as a 4-1-2-3 Wide DM (I call it a 4-3-3), but at times their defensive shape edges towards a 4-1-4-1. My feeling is that I should use a 4-1-2-3 Wide DM as that is the tradition of the club, but for certain matches I may want to tinker with Duties or Fluidity to get a better shape, or even (as a last resort!) revert to a 4-1-4-1 with modified WM Roles.

Team Shape Again, not easy, and it's all down to subjectivity. There are a couple of schools of thought in all that I have read. In one camp, there are those who regard Barca as a fluid, interchangeable beast; on the other, some analysts consider that each player has a clearly defined Role to play in a system which is very organised. I think that the quality of the players can make the play appear more fluid than it is, and so would probably concur with those who feel that Barca are actually quite structured and positionally controlled. Certainly Guardiola was one who hated inefficient movement for no purpose. I'll be staring on Balanced, but have the options mentioned in the Formation section open to me as I tune the system.

Specific observations At deep free kicks and goal kicks, Barca's DCs split, the full backs are wide and 10/15 yards further up field, and the DM drops back almost in line with the DCs. I've always disliked the Half Back Role in FM because it doesn't do what I want it to, although it is a while since I used it. Ordinarily, I'd use a DLP (D) to best try to reflect the pivote dropping back in these phases of play, but I'm mindful of how this balances with the rest of my central midfielders. There could be a case for pushing the full backs into the WB/L slots to directly replicate this shape, but I'm reasonably optimistic that they'll be OK at DL/R. One thing to avoid will be the GK instruction to "Distribute To Full Backs", as this actually makes the full backs drop back a few yards to be an "easier" pass to the GK.

From scouring this thread, people appear predisposed to building a system which dominates possession, perhaps even before trying to create a coherent style of play. Given that we know that possession stats in FM are calculated in a different way to many analytical sources, I won't be overly concerned by this. If I select the DM Role as a DLP (D), then I will not use Playmaker Roles at MC, because I find that too many playmakers leads to too much "clustering" around the ball. In order to have decent passing options, you need space, so if you have multiple players gravitating towards the ball, you lose that space and you lose those options. When appraising the performance of my DM Role, I'll look for:

i) Where is he positioned at deep free kicks and goal kicks?

ii) How much play is channelled through him?

iii) Is he being picked up by the AI?

Under Luis Enrique, it appears as if the remit of the full backs has been reined in a little. Typically, they are timing their runs a little more conservatively, and there is more balance overall to when and where they advance. That said, it is clear that they remain the main source of width for the side, so I can't really temper them too much. It is a dilemna, as I created a good, possession oriented system for my Southampton side (here: https://whenseagullsfollowthetrawler.wordpress.com/2014/12/17/a-change-of-course-4-1-4-1-to-5-3-2/) based on two Support Duty wing backs. I'll need to pay attention as my full back set up evolves, because I need to check a few things:

i) What is their positioning like at goal kicks? Not the biggest deal in the world, but I find that Attack Duties advance too early, which limits passing options

ii) When in possession, are they connected to play, or are they ahead of / behind play?

iii) Are they offering enough offensive width?

Earlier, I mentioned why I won't follow the herd and pack out my team with Playmakers. Given that I am provisionally using a DLP (D) at DM, this limits my MC Roles to Central Midfielder, Box To Box Midfielder and Ball Winning Midfielder. Immediately, I can rule out the last option as even with my limited exposure to Barca lately, I don't believe that any out of Iniesta, Xavi, Rakitic, Rafinha et al fit that Role. Rakitic is a relatively unknown quantity to me, but what I have read is that he is a diligent player at both ends of the pitch. He plays at MCR where he has a good relationship with Alves and Messi, so my right-side set up is taking shape in my mind. Rakitic is depicted as a more direct player than a player like Xavi, so this will be considered when looking at PIs.

On the assumption that Rakitic will be a Box To Box midfielder, I need to look for:

i) Interplay with Alves and Messi

ii) Is he supporting play well enough?

iii) Is he getting back early enough, to offer a defensive contribution?

iv) Is there enough evidence of him offering quick, direct and incisive passes?

So much depends on other stuff though! If I end up changing the DM away from a DLP to a DM or Anchor, I may be able to set Rakitic to a RPM - a sort of Box To Box Playmaker, which probably describes his real life Role quite accurately.

Typically, the MCL will be Iniesta, whose technical quality is clear, but who will not (initially, at least) be slotted into a predictable RPM or AP (A) Role / Duty. Lots will depend on how the DM Role pans out. If I find that a DM (D) or Anchor gives me roughly the sort of style I want, then the MCL Role can become a RPM, DLP or AP. As things stand, I'll assume that I want Busquets to be a DLP (D), so Iniesta will become a CM (S) in my first attempt at building a system. It is a very tailorable Role, so gives plenty of scope for modification. When reviewing Iniesta's contribution, I will look for:

i) Creativity. Just because he isn't in a Playmaker Role, doesn't mean that I shouldn't expect a lot from this cog in the system

ii) As with Rakitic to his right, I want to see interplay on my left hand side, between Alba, Neymar and Iniesta

iii) Balance with the DM and MCR. I've banged on about not using too many playmakers to keep as much space as I can, and I need to see if the theory stacks up.

The front three feels pretty clear cut, but there remain selection challenges. Whilst I have to contend with Suarez' global ban until January, I can slot in Munir, Pedro or new signing Barbosa for the early months into the front three. Suarez (once available) will slot in centrally, Neymar left and Messi right. In days of old, I'd have had Messi through the middle as a False Nine (or even a Trequartista), but the current evolution of Barca seems to deploy Messi from his original wide-right position, with Suarez tasked with making darting lateral runs to create space for Messi and Neymar to cut into.

I toyed with a Raumdeuter last night, and won't rule it out, but a better approximation of Messi / Neymar would appear to be two IFs. The Duties should probably both be Attack, but any knock-on regarding shot selection / frequency may need to be controlled via TIs and PIs. Suarez' Role is tricky. Given the absence of an AMC, I feel obliged to go for a Support Duty, and Suarez is a complete enough player to handle the Complete Forward Role. Whatever I finally choose, Move Into Channels is a must. What do I look for from the front three?

i) Interplay. Can we see clear links between Suarez' movement, and space created for the AML/R?

ii) Composed shooting. IF (A) can tend to be a bit trigger happy, even more so depending on what their PPMs are. I'll need to ensure that I rein this in to a tolerable level, and use all tools available to control it

iii) Connections between the front three, the MCs and the full backs when attacking. Where are the gaps? What are the consequences of closing those gaps?

Style The current Barcelona are described as more "compartmentalised" than some of the more exhilarating teams of years gone by. There seems a separation in the side whereby the front three are absolutely the attacking focus, with direct and snappy interplay. A key quote was this "After half a season it is now becoming clear that Enrique's Barça is one built on strikers, a significant shift from the Barça built on midfielders that produced one of its finest collective displays almost three years ago to the day."

The full backs offer width, but they are more balanced than before; Alves in particular was depicted as a man whose diminished physical condition has combined with Luis Enrique's more pragmatic approach. The MCs offer a controlled level of distribution and some support to the front men, but it feels like the front three are the key area to get right.

First Draft

4-1-2-3 DM, Counter, Balanced

SK (S) Distribute to Centre Backs (will try Distribute To Playmaker, but have a feeling that was knackered last time I tried)

©WB (S) x 2. Both full backs on Support to start with, with modification (if possible) to beef up their attacking contribution. Will also look to tone down crossing and shooting with PIs, and may revert to CWB (S) just to compare their qualities

DC (D) x 2. Possible scope to use BPDs but I don't really need to given the presence of a deep playmaker in front

DLP (D) - at least to start with. The gut instinct is that this is the best working Role to use to approximate the positioning of the DM when attacks start. I need to review this though, and will look at the Half Back, Anchor and DM (D) too. If the Role changes from a playmaking one, then it opens up my option at MC if I choose to stick with a single-playmaker policy

MCR = B2B (S). Rakitic will provide a dynamic midfielder who links up with Alves and Messi on the right, offers a direct distribution and gets up field to support play. Could end up being a RPM if the DLP changes, or if I just choose to abort the single-playmaker plan

MCL = CM (S). A jack of all trades Role which is eminently tailorable. Whatever happens with the DM Role, I will have at least one generic CM Role - though his Duty may change

AML/R = IF (A). Inward cutting wide men who look to overload the middle of the pitch

CF (S) Mobile point of attack who sometimes drops behind the AML/R, often creates them space and also scores his share of goals

Counter is selected as I want the "counter box ticked", I want us to be quite deep and compact when defending which will open up space for the front three to attack. Counter has some traits which I want to offset, so I'll lob in these TIs to create an initial overall style:

Play Out Of Defence to reduce the direct play of the DCs

Push Higher Up (may go all the way to Much Higher Defensive Line) to enable us to start to press a little further up field

Closing Down will not be done at a TI level, I may instead get the front three, MCs and (probably) full backs to do so via PIs

Work Ball Into Box will reduce crossing and long shots - specifically looking to control the behaviour of the full backs and IFs

Stay On Feet to hopefully enable us to launch a quick Counter

Pass Into Space to give the IFs something to run onto

Retain Possession to keep hold of the ball and again, hopefully reduce any wayward shooting

EDIT - Play Offside too. I think I read something which implied that this is one of the things Enrique demands

Sources

http://www.coachingsoccertactics.com/tag/barcelona/

http://www.espnfc.com/club/barcelona/83/blog/post/2202386/la-liga-luis-enriques-barcelona-built-on-strikersnot-the-midfielders-of-pep-guardiolas-era

http://soccer.realgm.com/wiretap/2099/Busquets-Luis-Su%C3%A1rez-Embodies-Shift-In-Bar%C3%A7as-Tactics

http://www.barcablaugranes.com/barca-tactics

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2015/01/14/barcelona-3-1-atletico-madrid-neymar-messi-suarez/

http://spielverlagerung.com/2014/09/14/game-analysis-fc-barcelona-athletic-bilbao-20/

http://spielverlagerung.com/2014/10/22/fc-barcelona-sd-eibar-30/

http://www.insidespanishfootball.com/139770/tactical-tinkering-the-way-forward-for-luis-enriques-barcelona/

http://beautywithinfootball.com/post/105003808156/barcelona-v-paris-saint-germain-3-1

http://mesqueunclubgr.blogspot.co.uk/2015/03/analysis-second-half-adjustments-give.html

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20141024-what-makes-barcelona-so-special

http://13steps.co/2015/02/27/analysis-of-manchester-citys-defensive-structure-vs-barcelona/

http://bitterandblue.sbnation.com/2015/3/19/8260199/barca-1-0-city-tactics-and-trends-and-messi

http://www.si.com/planet-futbol/2015/02/23/barcelona-tactics-luis-enrique-lionel-messi-champions-league

http://www.sportskeeda.com/football/tiki-taka-no-more-luis-enriques-new-direction-barcelonas-style-play

http://www.offthepost.info/blog/2015/03/tactics-review-barcelona-1-0-man-city/

http://www.offthepost.info/blog/2015/02/tactics-review-man-city-1-2-barcelona/

[all4everdragon]

My long term save is becoming stale, so I've decided to have a look at managing a truly elite side for the first time on FM15; Barcelona seems a decent place to start. The caveat? Since cancelling my Sky TV subscription 2 or 3 years ago, I rarely get to see Barca play, so a lot of what I do will be based on "the power of Google"; I'll list the sources. What have I gleaned so far? Bear with me.....

Formation Not quite as simple as I expected, when thinking of how to translate this into a FM world. Barcelona attack in what FM regards as a 4-1-2-3 Wide DM (I call it a 4-3-3), but at times their defensive shape edges towards a 4-1-4-1. My feeling is that I should use a 4-1-2-3 Wide DM as that is the tradition of the club, but for certain matches I may want to tinker with Duties or Fluidity to get a better shape, or even (as a last resort!) revert to a 4-1-4-1 with modified WM Roles.

Team Shape Again, not easy, and it's all down to subjectivity. There are a couple of schools of thought in all that I have read. In one camp, there are those who regard Barca as a fluid, interchangeable beast; on the other, some analysts consider that each player has a clearly defined Role to play in a system which is very organised. I think that the quality of the players can make the play appear more fluid than it is, and so would probably concur with those who feel that Barca are actually quite structured and positionally controlled. Certainly Guardiola was one who hated inefficient movement for no purpose. I'll be staring on Balanced, but have the options mentioned in the Formation section open to me as I tune the system.

]

Sadly I can't find one interview Fabregas gave in which he compared his time at Arsenal and at Barcelona. In that interview, along with other issues Fabregas stated that with Guardiola the team had all the freedom when in possession but none when out of possession (I think it's impossible to replicate in FM); other statement was that (in Bacelona) every player had a specific duty (translated for FM as Balanced Team Shape, i guess).

I might look into it, but you can also find it, there are several tactical analysis mentioning that Barcelona was the only team using two playmakers when most teams use one or none.

[seb_lesnar]

A couple of questions:

1) Are you giving the CM (S) role any PIs? If so which ones?

2) Why is in your opinion the half-back role not suited for the Sergio Busquets role at Barcelona? What is the role you expect fromm Busquets?

3) While Suarez is out are you going to give Messi the same instructions as him in the striker role?

[Jean0987654321]

Sadly I can't find one interview Fabregas gave in which he compared his time at Arsenal and at Barcelona. In that interview, along with other issues Fabregas stated that with Guardiola the team had all the freedom when in possession but none when out of possession (I think it's impossible to replicate in FM); other statement was that (in Bacelona) every player had a specific duty (translated for FM as Balanced Team Shape, i guess).

I might look into it, but you can also find it, there are several tactical analysis mentioning that Barcelona was the only team using two playmakers when most teams use one or none.

Wide Playmakers?? Or Advanced Playmakers in the wingers spot??

[all4everdragon]

Wide Playmakers?? Or Advanced Playmakers in the wingers spot??

No, the use of two playmakers was about Xavi and Iniesta, at that time, so it would be the split DLP / AP.

[RTHerringbone]

Sadly I can't find one interview Fabregas gave in which he compared his time at Arsenal and at Barcelona. In that interview, along with other issues Fabregas stated that with Guardiola the team had all the freedom when in possession but none when out of possession (I think it's impossible to replicate in FM); other statement was that (in Bacelona) every player had a specific duty (translated for FM as Balanced Team Shape, i guess).

Yes, certainly difficult, which is why there have been some calls for a "style" in possession and a "style" out of possession. I guess the option is to have a more Rigid style with the handful of creative Roles that I'm trying to avoid using!

I might look into it, but you can also find it, there are several tactical analysis mentioning that Barcelona was the only team using two playmakers when most teams use one or none.

Probably, but I always think "playmaker" in real life is just a term, and here it's all about squeezing it into a system which tries to avoid certain Roles because of how they influence passing patterns in a computer game. I can see myself using Busquets as an Anchor or DM (D) as he can be asked to Pass It Shorter, and I could make a decent case for calling a screening midfielder who focuses on keeping play ticking over, a "playmaker". Similarly, just because Iniesta is a CM (S) rather than a DLP, AP or RPM, isn't really an issue as he can be asked to change an awful lot of passing options. Would he still pick out key passes and make assists? Yep, he just wouldn't have the playmaker mode in FM enabled.

[RTHerringbone]

A couple of questions:

1) Are you giving the CM (S) role any PIs? If so which ones?

2) Why is in your opinion the half-back role not suited for the Sergio Busquets role at Barcelona? What is the role you expect fromm Busquets?

3) While Suarez is out are you going to give Messi the same instructions as him in the striker role?

1. Yes, but I haven't tried any of this yet. He can be asked to do EVERYTHING - Pass Shorter, More Direct, Less Risky, More Risky, Get Further Forward, Roam, Hold Position, Dribble and Shoot More or Less etc. etc. It is a hugely versatile Role.

2. I don't like the way the Role "works" in FM. The way it moves in and out of possession means you are part distracted by the need to balance the MCs to accommodate that. That's not a compromise I want to make, though I will revisit the Role to see if I still think it is broken.

3. I would, but only because I tend to force systems onto players, rather than players onto systems. I'm still to figure out what the central striker Role will be and imagine that one, plus the DM and MCs will be the ones most subject to change.

[all4everdragon]

Yes, certainly difficult, which is why there have been some calls for a "style" in possession and a "style" out of possession. I guess the option is to have a more Rigid style with the handful of creative Roles that I'm trying to avoid using!

Probably, but I always think "playmaker" in real life is just a term, and here it's all about squeezing it into a system which tries to avoid certain Roles because of how they influence passing patterns in a computer game. I can see myself using Busquets as an Anchor or DM (D) as he can be asked to Pass It Shorter, and I could make a decent case for calling a screening midfielder who focuses on keeping play ticking over, a "playmaker". Similarly, just because Iniesta is a CM (S) rather than a DLP, AP or RPM, isn't really an issue as he can be asked to change an awful lot of passing options. Would he still pick out key passes and make assists? Yep, he just wouldn't have the playmaker mode in FM enabled.

Been there, done that :-) not sure why and I've discussed this with HoG (more some enlightment he gave me) but through all the saves I've played, a more rigid style always gave me more possession. HoG feels it's all about our team being more closed down or less closed down. This is something I find superficial in the game and could be a lot further developed like that option: style / instructions in possession and out of possession.

Finaly, maybe our "sin" is to be too faithful when translating football terms to FM and sometimes although the term is the same in football and in FM they might mean not the same thing.

bold - and your passing options wouldn't be focused through the middle :-)

[RTHerringbone]

bold - and your passing options wouldn't be focused through the middle :-)

Exactly - and I see that as a good thing.

I'll try to commit to dissecting parts of my system with examples tonight. I've just loaded it up and seen that it has already got five changes from the system listed above, so I'll hopefully look at areas for improvement in a succession of games and highlight the changes I make and why. To be clear - I am not a diehard Barcelona fan at all, so a lot of what follows will be very open to debate, but at least it will hopefully spark some discussion.

[RTHerringbone]

OK, so game one is at home to Bilbao in La Liga. A round of international fixtures has cost us the services of Ter Stegen, Pique, Iniesta and Rakitic, whilst Suzrez is banned. First set of Roles, Duties and TIs is as below. Apologies for massive images, still haven't figured out why they come out so big on my Mac - note also that I play FMC:

TIs include Shorter Passing and Prevent Short GK Distribution, both of which are self-explanatory and I just forgot when writing up the earlier stuff.

[all4everdragon]

That, PI and no OI, right ?

[RTHerringbone]

Positive sign number one - Busquets as a DLP (D) is dropping where he tends to for goal kicks, and the wing backs are in a similar position to all the images I've seen - wide but not so far up field as to be a viable passing option. Immediate change in match now to set Busquets to a Half Back to see if my bad memories of the Role are correct. If they are, I'll then try him as a Anchor and then a DM (D) to see how he is positioned at goal kicks. Once all that faff is done, I'll at least have a clear idea about his Role, and that will knock-on to determine how I set the MCs if I choose to persist with my single playmaker idea. Downside is that the DCs are still narrow, so that will be a test of the Half Back switch:

[RTHerringbone]

That, PI and no OI, right ?

Yes. There are no OIs in FMC. I'll confirm PIs in more detail once I have the Roles and Duties functioning in a vaguely coherent way.

[Snootch]

I'm interested to see your findings on the Half-Back role in this tactic RTH. I've personally been shifting between the two regularly and can't seem to decide.

In fact, I began to wonder whether Anchor Man might be best depending on what we end up doing with the two CM slots.

[all4everdragon]

Yes. There are no OIs in FMC. I'll confirm PIs in more detail once I have the Roles and Duties functioning in a vaguely coherent way.

Oh, ok, you're in FMC :-)

There's also an entreview with Guardiola in which he states that he likes high high speed, because this is the only way to make a change in rhythm:

Interviewer: What’s the importance to you as the coach of the tempo at which the game is played? The speed?

Pep: I will like to play in a high high speed. To change the rhythm you must play at a huge speed, because It’s only when you play with a huge speed that you can change the rhythm. You have to try to stay aggressive without the ball and with the ball we try to play quickly but in the right moment to make a change in rhythm.

Link: https://defendingwiththeball.wordpress.com/2014/04/22/bayern-munich-under-pep-guardiola/

I find this an example of similar terms in football and in FM might not mean the same: does the high high speed of Pep translates in FM in higher or much higher tempo ? If so, the Counter metality sets a low tempo without a TI.

And let's not forget positional interchange.

[RTHerringbone]

Deep defensive shape looks OK - with Attack Duty IFs Messi and Neymar relatively deep and a narrow defensive line, though the absence of Barbosa (CF S) from this image is mildly perturbing. Busquets is shielding well, so now downside of the switch to Half Back yet, though I have concerns that the Half Back on default advances further up field in possession than I want. Rafinha and Xavi are covering their men well, so all in all it's a pretty good state of affairs.

[RTHerringbone]

There's also an entreview with Guardiola in which he states that he likes high high speed, because this is the only way to make a change in rhythm.

I find this an example of similar terms in football and in FM might not mean the same: does the high high speed of Pep translates in FM in higher or much higher tempo ? If so, the Counter metality sets a low tempo without a TI.

And let's not forget positional interchange.

I think the key to tempo there is that he stresses that it is "You have to try to stay aggressive without the ball and with the ball we try to play quickly but in the right moment to make a change in rhythm." To me, that implies that the lower tempo of Counter is fine, because the "right moment" is when the counter itself is triggered, whereby FM reverts to a much higher tempo.

Positional interchange is a hurdle I'll come to later on

[RTHerringbone]

I'm interested to see your findings on the Half-Back role in this tactic RTH. I've personally been shifting between the two regularly and can't seem to decide.

In fact, I began to wonder whether Anchor Man might be best depending on what we end up doing with the two CM slots.

I just can't see the point of a Half Back. It seems as if he doesn't knacker the space between the DCs as much as it did early in FM14, but all he does is give the same basic shape for goal kicks. The DCs don't split noticeably wider, the Half Back appears to get further up field than a DLP (D) (which I don't necessarily want) and he has an odd habit of dropping behind the DCs just after a goal kick is taken which doesn't serve a purpose.

Game 1 was a 3-0 win, which allows me to rule out that Role and now try an Anchor and then a DM (D). Results of that will affect how I set the MCs, though they actually functioned well against Bilbao. Other good signs were the interplay of the front three, with the CF (S) sometimes the deepest and linking play, sometimes swapping position with an in-cutting IF.

[all4everdragon]

I think the key to tempo there is that he stresses that it is "You have to try to stay aggressive without the ball and with the ball we try to play quickly but in the right moment to make a change in rhythm." To me, that implies that the lower tempo of Counter is fine, because the "right moment" is when the counter itself is triggered, whereby FM reverts to a much higher tempo.

Positional interchange is a hurdle I'll come to later on

That's the kind of explanations we miss in the game

[RTHerringbone]

Next game was a nasty 1-0 win at the Amsterdam Arena in the CL Group Stage, where we were utterly outplayed - it would not have gone down well in Catalunya! However, it confirmed that the Anchor Role does not replicate the positioning required to replicate the positioning of the Half Back or DLP (D), so we'll give that a go in the next match at Levante. I also know how and why the sloppy performance happened, but we were never at risk of losing so I'll see how we get on in the next game. Interplay up front remains really positive, so I'm tempted to leave things as they are there. After the Levante game, I'll know what Role I'm committing to at DM, then there should be a domino effect up field in terms of clarity of Role selection.

[seb_lesnar]

Counter is selected as I want the "counter box ticked", I want us to be quite deep and compact when defending which will open up space for the front three to attack. Counter has some traits which I want to offset, so I'll lob in these TIs to create an initial overall style

This might be a silly question but before the elimination of sliders on the tactics creator, only the "counter" and the "attacking" mentality had their "counter box ticked". Does that mean that those two mentalities are the only ones that counter attack constantly?

I thought that that mechanism was eliminated and that every mentality would counter attack if the chance arises.

[RTHerringbone]

This might be a silly question but before the elimination of sliders on the tactics creator, only the "counter" and the "attacking" mentality had their "counter box ticked". Does that mean that those two mentalities are the only ones that counter attack constantly?

I thought that that mechanism was eliminated and that every mentality would counter attack if the chance arises.

Every Mentality can counter attack, it is just that some Mentalities have relaxed counter attack criteria, so a counter can happen more often in those Mentalities.

[seb_lesnar]

Those mentalities with "more relaxed criteria" would then be those with the "counter-attack box ticked" (Counter and Attacking)?

[RTHerringbone]

Those mentalities with "more relaxed criteria" would then be those with the "counter-attack box ticked" (Counter and Attacking)?

Overload also has it, and I *think* Defensive does too.

[all4everdragon]

I usually go with Control mentality but in the Champions League I use Counter (team shape very structured with both mentalities). Since Retain Possession drops tempo that it's already low due to Mentality, I have this idea that setting a High Tempo balance things some how. Just beat PSG 3-0 at the quarter-final

The higher tempo reduces possession but for the 2nd half I unticked it and we went from 0-0 at half time (we needed a goal after a defeat by 4-3 in Paris) and it was a beating. And also changed WBs duty to attack because PSG had their both FBs on defend duty.

My set up is SGK (s); right WB (s), CD (d), CD (d) left-WB (s), HB, right AP (s), left AP (a), right IF (a), left Winger (a), F9

Retain Possessio, Short Passing, Work Ball into Box, Play from Defence, Look for Overlaps, Much Higher Defence Line, Roam from Position, Close Down Much More, Stay on Feet, Mark Tighter, Use Offside Trap, Avoid GK Distribution, Be More Expressive,

[Special_One]

I just can't see the point of a Half Back. It seems as if he doesn't knacker the space between the DCs as much as it did early in FM14, but all he does is give the same basic shape for goal kicks. The DCs don't split noticeably wider, the Half Back appears to get further up field than a DLP (D) (which I don't necessarily want) and he has an odd habit of dropping behind the DCs just after a goal kick is taken which doesn't serve a purpose.

Game 1 was a 3-0 win, which allows me to rule out that Role and now try an Anchor and then a DM (D). Results of that will affect how I set the MCs, though they actually functioned well against Bilbao. Other good signs were the interplay of the front three, with the CF (S) sometimes the deepest and linking play, sometimes swapping position with an in-cutting IF.

I use a half back in a possession based 4123 and my thoughts are that when we have the ball in our own half he drops between the centre backs who spread a bit wider and when we have the ball in the opponents half he steps in front of the centre backs forming a triangle rather than a line and acts not too much different to a DLPd.. Not sure why but that's just my observations! It's a role that the ME hasn't got quite right but still is relatively useful

[Jean0987654321]

I have tested out a similar tactic to the one above.

Counter/Balanced

SK (D) - Roll It Out, Pass It Shorter, Less Risky Passes, Distribute to Full Backs, Distribute Quickly

CWB (S) x 2 - Shoot Less Often, Close Down Much More, Cross Less Often, Tackle Harder, Pass It Shorter, Less Risky Passes

CB (D) x 2 - Pass It Shorter, Close Down Much Less, Tackle Harder

A (D) - Close Down Much Less, Tackle Harder, Pass It Shorter

AP (S) - Shoot Less Often, Close Down Much More, Cross Less Often, Tackle Harder, Pass It Shorter, Less Risky Passes, Dribble Less, Tackle Harder, Roam From Position

AP (A) - Shoot Less Often, Close Down Much More, Cross Less Often, Tackle Harder, Pass It Shorter, Less Risky Passes, Tackle Harder, Roam From Position

R x 2 - Shoot Less Often, Dribble Less, Close Down Much More, Tackle Harder, Less Risky Passes

CF (S) - Shoot Less Often, Close Down Much More, Pass It Shorter, Move Into Channels, Tackle Harder

The idea here is to just pass it around and not waste any time with joga bonito, killer balls and long shots. Also I was thinking about the two playmakers and then I made them APs with different roles

TI:

Retain Possession

Pass It Shorter

Pass Into Space

Play Out Of Defense

Work Ball Into Box

Much Higher Defensive Live

Stay On Feet

Offside Trap

Prevent Short GK Distribution

I murdered Schalke 6-0 with my ManU team and the tactic is not even close to fluid

Training - Attacking/Teamwork

Highlights

58% possession, tho. Had some players going mental and shooting from distance even tho they are instructed not to but thats FM and their ME

[RTHerringbone]

Interesting PIs Jean, very similar to ones I used at Southampton to bump possession up. Less risk = more possession. I've experienced the same shooting bonanza you have, and it's a downside of the IF(A). I'll look to resolve that tonight, but will concentrate this evening on showing why I believe the CWB Support is the best wide defensive Role / Duty for Barcelona.

[all4everdragon]

Interesting PIs Jean, very similar to ones I used at Southampton to bump possession up. Less risk = more possession. I've experienced the same shooting bonanza you have, and it's a downside of the IF(A). I'll look to resolve that tonight, but will concentrate this evening on showing why I believe the CWB Support is the best wide defensive Role / Duty for Barcelona.

That shooting issue was an issue in FM14, as I see it it has improved a bit with FM15 but it can improve more. What I've been seeing also in my matches is that the Winger (a) almost behave like an IF (a) looking for inner spaces, cutting inside.

RT how is your possession % ? and do you think the dificulty with achieving possession % like Barcelona did is something we can all work to improve or is more to do with some lack of tools within FM ?

[Jazz]

and do you think the dificulty with achieving possession % like Barcelona did is something we can all work to improve or is more to do with some lack of tools within FM ?

The problem with trying to recreate the same possession % is that while FM calculates possession as when your team has the ball (I'm not 100% sure on that though), Opta Stats calculates it in completed passes, thus bringing us the problem of recreating it: You can't replicate the same thing calculated differently.

Opta Stats calculation:

A game with a grand total of 800 passes consisting of team A and B.

Team A has 600 of those passes and Team B has 200.

To Calculate Team A's possession it would be: Team A passes divided with Total of match passes = 0,75 multiplied with 100 = 75%

EDIT: Jean, how can you give the CWB PI "Cross less often"? on my screen it's greyed out and he has the "Cross more often" as already activated along with "dribble more".

[RTHerringbone]

That shooting issue was an issue in FM14, as I see it it has improved a bit with FM15 but it can improve more. What I've been seeing also in my matches is that the Winger (a) almost behave like an IF (a) looking for inner spaces, cutting inside.

RT how is your possession % ? and do you think the dificulty with achieving possession % like Barcelona did is something we can all work to improve or is more to do with some lack of tools within FM ?

As Jazz has already replied, it's not really fair to compare possession in FM to widely reported possession stats as they are just calculated on a different basis. Given the different reporting methodologies, you need to decide what route you want to go down; more passes or more "possession" in an FM sense.

Regarding the shooting, I had two options in my locker, and early signs are that option one is sort of working. I've dropped the Duty of the IFs to Support, so they aren't quite as pre-disposed to shoot when they get a sniff of goal. It should go hand-in-hand with increased FM possession too, as the time with which we have the ball will increase if there is some delay between receiving the ball and taking the shot.

[RTHerringbone]

EDIT: Jean, how can you give the CWB PI "Cross less often"? on my screen it's greyed out and he has the "Cross more often" as already activated along with "dribble more".

You can't as a PI, though the TI Work Ball Into Box will generally reduce crosses. An alternative is simply to use the Wing Back Support combination, where the PI also becomes available.

[RTHerringbone]

Some changes to the original set up. This reflects five changes:

Goalkeeper to GK (D) to enable use of Fewer Risky Passes PI with a view to bumping possession

Both wing backs changed from CWB (S) to WB (S) to enable Cross Less Often PI with a view to bumping possession

Both IF Duties reduced from Attacking to Support in an attempt to reduce shot frequency and indirectly bump possession.

TIs are now:

Retain Possession

Shorter Passing

Work Ball Into Box

Play Out Of Defence

Much Higher Defensive Line (in a bid to improve pressing, but I need to see what impact this has on space behind the AI - have removed Pass Into Space as it encourages Risky through passes)

Stay On Feet

Prevent Short GK Distribution

Much Lower Tempo

I'm dabbling with "possession" now, as well as watching the impact of the Role / Duty changes. Theoretically, an ultra-low tempo would increase the time we are on the ball, but it will also reduce pass frequency, which feels silly if it is just to massage the FM "possession" stat in line with real-life equivalents which are compiled on a different basis. Ultimately, I suspect I'll switch that tempo entirely to increase the absolute pass count, because a bit of basic maths will enable me to calculate a "real-life possession" figure.

[Jazz]

You can't as a PI, though the TI Work Ball Into Box will generally reduce crosses. An alternative is simply to use the Wing Back Support combination, where the PI also becomes available.

Yes, but:

CWB (S) x 2 - Shoot Less Often, Close Down Much More, Cross Less Often, Tackle Harder, Pass It Shorter, Less Risky Passes

So I thought he might know a work-a-round/trick to do it other than TI

Also, have you completely ruled out RMD's in your formation, or are they too trigger happy?

[all4everdragon]

As Jazz has already replied, it's not really fair to compare possession in FM to widely reported possession stats as they are just calculated on a different basis. Given the different reporting methodologies, you need to decide what route you want to go down; more passes or more "possession" in an FM sense.

Regarding the shooting, I had two options in my locker, and early signs are that option one is sort of working. I've dropped the Duty of the IFs to Support, so they aren't quite as pre-disposed to shoot when they get a sniff of goal. It should go hand-in-hand with increased FM possession too, as the time with which we have the ball will increase if there is some delay between receiving the ball and taking the shot.

Ok, so there's no point people keep comparing possession % in FM with Barcelona from those good old days, neither being frustrated because they haven't 70% plus all matches

Once I used a similar set up like the one you posted, I had 10 players on support duty and one AP with attack duty. It was quite good. Don't you feel the need of having someone with an attack duty ?

[RTHerringbone]

Also, have you completely ruled out RMD's in your formation, or are they too trigger happy?

Haven't ruled them out, but reverting the IF's to Support seems to be OK - just won at Rayo with the team above where the IFs took just one shot between them. There's a balance to be struck between massaging stats and generating scorelines, and my preference will always be towards generating a result made up of unrealistic stats, rather than a low-scoring result made up of realistic looking stats. As such, I'm going to give Raumdeuters a look now, to see how they get along.

[RTHerringbone]

Once I used a similar set up like the one you posted, I had 10 players on support duty and one AP with attack duty. It was quite good. Don't you feel the need of having someone with an attack duty ?

Not really, and especially not if using a Mentality where the counter is triggered and all Mentality suddenly gets a boost.

EDIT - Have just noticed I have two more matches to mess about tactically, and then we visit the Bernebau......

[Jazz]

and my preference will always be towards generating a result made up of unrealistic stats, rather than a low-scoring result made up of realistic looking stats.

Hehe, I think most people will agree to that

Not really, and especially not if using a Mentality where the counter is triggered and all Mentality suddenly gets a boost.

When you play with a much higher defensive line (slightly offset by the counter mentality), wouldn't it leave less space and room for a counter attack to get triggered, than if you went less high up the pitch?

[RTHerringbone]

When you play with a much higher defensive line (slightly offset by the counter mentality), wouldn't it leave less space and room for a counter attack to get triggered, than if you went less high up the pitch?

Yes, and that's where the usual conundrum of strategy in FM exists. Do I want to be deep and invite players forward to trigger a counter, or do I want to press aggressively, win the ball high and dictate the way the game pans out. They are not directly compatible, so I need to decide what to do. My vision of Barca is more in the second category - press hard and dominate the game.

[Jazz]

Ok, so there's no point people keep comparing possession % in FM with Barcelona from those good old days, neither being frustrated because they haven't 70% plus all matches

Not really no.

Ofcourse, you can get the possession % in FM pretty far up (of what i tried, it blunted my attack, I'd rather win 3-0 with a poss % of 60% than 1-0 with a poss % 70-75%), but it won't reflect real life unless you choose to use the same calculation method used by the data presenter you gain the statistics from, in my example, Opta stats.

[all4everdragon]

Not really no.

Ofcourse, you can get the possession % in FM pretty far up (of what i tried, it blunted my attack, I'd rather win 3-0 with a poss % of 60% than 1-0 with a poss % 70-75%), but it won't reflect real life unless you choose to use the same calculation method used by the data presenter you gain the statistics from, in my example, Opta stats.

Ok, people have been crazy about this for years, now they tell us that calculation methods are different and FM % possession doesn't reflect football % possession

Apologies for the off-topic but how is possession calculated in FM compared to football ?

[Gee_Simpson]

Ok, people have been crazy about this for years, now they tell us that calculation methods are different and FM % possession doesn't reflect football % possession

Apologies for the off-topic but how is possession calculated in FM compared to football ?

Possession in FM is calculated by how long your team is in possession for.

Possession IRL is calculated by how many passes your team makes.

[JWVG]

FM calculated possession is fine compared to real life IMO, sometimes even higher (I did some math).

[RTHerringbone]

FM calculated possession is fine compared to real life IMO, sometimes even higher (I did some math).

It is, without doubt, calculated on a different basis though.

[Benoit2]

Possession IRL is calculated by how many passes your team makes.

For which sources?

UEFA: Arsenal have 704 passes, Monaco 281. Thats 71% of the passes for Arsenal. Their possession is only 61% though.

WhoScored: Arsenal have 760 passes, Monaco 324. Thats 70% of the passes for Arsenal. Their possession is only 68.8% though.

Soccerway: Unfortunately they do not seem to record total passes, but they give Arsenal only 66% possession.

So based on these three sources, I see no support for the claim that possession IRL is calculated by amount of passes. I do see support to claim that every source has different stats on possession and amount of passes, meaning that nothing can be trusted.

[Jazz]

For which sources?

Opta Stats uses the method where you calculate it in passes.

Edit: I agree that nothing can be trusted completely, you just have to choose the method you find the most reliable

[all4everdragon]

Ok, let's take a moment here. If, in FM, possession is calculated by how long my team is in possession is it considered a stop in play to any team ? when the ball is in air is it considered ? Making the same questions posted on Opta, right here http://www.optasportspro.com/en/about/optapro-blog/posts/2012/possession%28s%29.aspx