Do you support that FM's training system should be changed radically?

[GoodControl]

I see that real life training process is about training you team to play certain way in certain situations. Manager must create a training program for whole season. The main purpose is to teach team (1)tactics (how to play together in standard situations), and (2) management of phisical condition, but not just train an individual attributes.

The programe usually include sparing matches and execisses between 2 squads of your team. Usually in blue shirt is your first squad and in yellow - your second squad. Each execisses or match has a goal to train specific tactical element(s). Manager can see the trainigs alive on FM match engine, as well as see reports which explain how well players complete tactical instruction that you have set. If you see that team do not follow some instructions, you team do not play style you want, you can train this element more on next training, otherwise your players will not complete your plan in official game.

In contrast of this, FM game propose us to train individual attributes of players, which is not realistic IMHO. As Messi become Messi because of his talent and because he was trained to play in line with Barca style and interact the rest of Barca's players, not because good attribute training program.

Dear readers, please share your opinion about training process here. What do you think about my proposal? And do you support current training system or you want it to be changed as well as me?

[Cleon]

In contrast of this, FM game propose us to train individual attributes of players, which is not realistic IMHO. As Messi become Messi because of his talent and because he was trained to play in line with Barca style and interact the rest of Barca's players, not because good attribute training program.

I agree it needs changing the way training works as a whole but exactly how do you suggest it? How can you implement something that makes player's individuals if it doesn't focus on attributes? After all the game is based around attributes and as a result such things you are asking for simply wouldn't work due to the limited realism that training can provide in the game. Lets not confuse a game and real life mechanics of doing things. Somethings that happen in realitly simply cannot be added to a game to ensure realism.

[Los_Culés]

I liked the training system which was implemented in the previous versions (the last was FM 2005 if I am not mistaken). There were various, realistic training excercises like pig in the middle, 5-a-side-large, 5-a-side-small, shadow play, sprints etc... and an user could create realistic training sessions. I think SI have abandoned this system because many FM players thought it was complicated.

[GoodControl]

I think that good way to not to focus on attributes is to focus on exercises and sparing matches.

Yes it was in previous version of the game and was abandoned. I think that reason why this feature was not very popular because excercises was connected with attributes. In other word, to train certain attributes you must pick certain set of exercises. But it was just a clutter, cause it easier to just pick the attributes you going to train without exercises.

Enother hand, if excercises will be connected with the style you team play, with ability to execute manager's instructions, contrived combinations, feeling what partners going to do in certain situations, players preferences, exercises will has a sense.

I think that one way how to build this system is to create "extended standard positions". For example, you can set what every players are going to do during Corners, free kicks and trough ins, so why not to extend this amount of positions by adding in-game situations? So we can use training process to train players play in in-game situations as well as standard positions certain way. Not just picking at in tactics screen before every game but train it. And let exercises reflect real game situations, for example: corner exercise, ball control exercise, flank attack exercise etc

I know, many of this things we are already able to make now by picking right options in tactics, but in real life many of tactical instructions that we have in FM is actually should be trained some time, not just picked on day before game.

[dribbler]

"Do you support that FM's training system should be changed radically?"...No I like it...I already feel that in some ways this is a game of Byzantine complexity that's a real pain to play...so I don't want to choose whether or not the players need a game of piggy-in-the-middle...and I will NEVER watch training matches

Make it any more complicated and we'll need to take a week off work just to play a couple of matches

[GoodControl]

@dribbler,

I am not saying it should be more complicate, I mean it should not train attributes but train how to play in certain in-game and standard positions.

According to ability to watch training sessions, I mean that it up to you to do it or not. If your training report shows that your players can't execute your instructions in certain in-game situation, you can watch some trainings to make sure what exactly goes wrong, but another hand, you can just use report for that. Also, if you are national team manager and you have no many games, it could be interesting.

[furiousuk]

Just wondering why you think real-life managers behave in the way you suggest?

My experience of playing professional sport and being friends with a number of league 1 & league 2 players (due to sharing training facilities and a stadium with them) is not really what you suggest although I'm not suggesting that the current FM way is either.

What happens is that the manager decides on a style of play that typifies the squad you have. This is done in conjunction with the other coaches and with the players. Some managers get more involved in this than others (there are some managers who like to pick a team and let them play the way they want to - it's an extremely valid philosophy and one that works at even the highest levels). Training then comes down to personal development, team development and match specific (i.e. responses to assumptions about your next opponent).

FM simulates personal development by specifying a series of weights. In real-world terms this could be telling a youngster that they need to improve their speed, or their strength, or their passing - these are all things that are done every week (if not every day) at a real-life sports club. It is up to the coaches how they implement this. So, your training session might begin with a warm-up that focusses on dribbling, or passing, or awareness of space before moving on to a team exercise that specifically focusses on the same (or a similar) area. In this way each player at the training session has the chance to improve that aspect. This also benefits your team development - again, this is simulated in FM by way of growing individuals and understanding that those individuals fit into a team.

The last aspect of training is responding to weaknesses posed by your last opponent and anticipating the strengths and weaknesses of your next opponent. FM has added a match prep module last year which simulates this aspect of training. In real-life, towards the end of the season, it is likely that a large chunk of training time is taken up by this specific area whereas the benefits are negligible in FM so it isn't used. I'd expect this to change in future versions of the game.

In short, the FM system already simulates the outcomes of real-life training pretty well. The way it does it differs for reasons that Cleon has already stated.

The reason they dropped piggy-in-the-middle training (I quite like it actually) is partly because it was complex but mainly because it just required the player to remember more stuff - all each training session did was specify a series of weights for the training session (I'd imagine piggy-in-the-middle boost agility and passing) for every player. Good players just learnt what each session did - the thought process was I want to boost technicals, which session should I use. The thought process is simpler now as we just increase a slider. We can still do the old style training by specifying a general training session that all players are on and changing it each week to give a different emphasis to training each week. The current system is capable of much more than you're suggesting.

[dribbler]

Thanks to reading SFraser and others I've formed the opinion that the current system is cleverly designed and it's also easy to set up schedules. In FM12 I've already had quite a bit of feedback from my coaches which is useful too.

Your ideas are perfectly reasonable GoodControl but you can (and should) watch how players play in matches and you can always schedule a friendly or control a reserve match if you want to try something new.

And the "piggy-in-the-middle system" is something SI have abandoned already thankfully. It's not for me anyway.

Of course the training system will no doubt evolve over the years but I just can't see how the game experience would be improved by your suggestions. Possibly this is me being short-sighted of course

[GoodControl]

I see that real life training process include manager's general training program with exercises that let players learn how to play your style, how to play together. It mean collective pressing for example. Also this program include fitness management. For example, you have too manage the pick of form and so on.

As for next opponent studying and responding to it's weakness and strength - yes it is a part of training system, but it is not in general training program. Training program created once in a year by manager, and than coaches must execute it on daily basis. But it is dose not mean that manager shouldn't do any adjustments during season. Yes he must do it. And adjustments for next opponent is one of the point.

So, my point is we have to divide general training program which is for setting a strategy, and day-to-day training activities, which is for execution, and may not be managed completely by you.

@furiousuk, believe me, it is happening like that in real life professional football. Managers do create training program yearly. It is important. And they do not try to train Messi become more fast, it is not a goal. You can't improve speed or most of other attributes of adult player, but you can make them play much better and become much better players by other way. By making them all understand the purpose of your tactic and what you want them to do on the pitch. They must strongly believe in your ideas. New tactical thinking and mentality, this is the key of trainings. What you talking about is make sense more in youth football.

[GoodControl]

Of course the training system will no doubt evolve over the years but I just can't see how the game experience would be improved by your suggestions. Possibly this is me being short-sighted of course

I am not saying that my suggestions are only right. But I arguing that training system based on attributes training is one of the worst idea. It is not realistic to much. And It is too boring in terms of gameplay.

[Simply... Awesome!]

I was going to say YES to the poll but stopped and realised that FM really does all I need it to do, and then some... including all you suggested in the OP.

Match preparation - tactical understanding

Sliders - tailored growth

PPMs - style of play

Focused training - special needs

Graphs - detailed review

"relationships" or "favourite personel" - the sixth sense attained through much time playing together shown by advanced foresight in matches

feedback from staff - tells one what you reasonably can't see due to practical constraints

[As a side note I do think the staff role (first, youth, fitness, general) should play a more significant role]

What I do think needs an "overhaul" - and I use that term cautiously because I don't want SI to blow this out of proportion - is the user interface.

Think Windows XP to Windows 7 as a rough example. As a regular computer user, I struggle with performing basic tasks and general navigation on XP simply because the interface in 7 is so much more intuitive, self explanatory, and involve fewer clicks - nothing at all to do with performance, architecture, or features.

If I need to ask:

"What do the bar charts do and why does it hardly ever change?"

"Surely if my workload is high its better?"

"What does 'none' mean in preparing matches?"

.... then the design is much closed to wrong than right!!!!

I am not saying that my suggestions are only right. But I arguing that training system based on attributes training is one of the worst idea. It is not realistic to much. And It is too boring in terms of gameplay.

I mostly disagree.

Its like saying that getting a grade at school should not be used to judge performance. The world works with numbers. What matters is the meaning attached to the number; an A in a science subject is not the same as an A in a social subject.

If the user design (not implementation) of the "Development, Integration, and Rooting of players" AKA Training was improved I don't think threads like this would exist much.

[furiousuk]

What a simply awesome post!

Great points, well made!

Completely agree!

[heathxxx]

I completely agree with Simply... Awesome! The user interface of the training module could probably do with further improvements.

I recall the initial discussions about how to improve the tactical interface, which quickly lead to the term "Tactical Wizard" being mentioned. I think the same sort of interface might be also useful for the training module. I've often thought a "Training Wizard" would be a useful direction to take for the training module.

As for anything else, it's really a question of depth - how much depth do people really want this area of the game to have. At the moment for example, you can leave players on the standard pre-set schedules... they'll still develop well enough, certainly if they're playing regularly. Match experience has always seemed to be the biggest aid to player attribute development there is.

For those who do want to delve a little deeper, then those prepared to go into detail with individually tailored schedules, can shape attribute distribution to a certain extent.

For team orientated training, although not entirely happy with how it's been implemented, the match preparation module is a step in the right direction.

Personally though, the training module is an area of the game I've only taken cursory interest in. I'm not so sure I'd welcome what I would refer to as "necessary" depth, in such that any additional implementations create tasks that have to be done, rather than being a matter of choice.

[vieires]

It's probably worth noting also that the training module as it is allows for youth development in a way that would be impossible if the training focused only on 'team style and tactics'.

For a management game in which you can already set your team's tactics, and which already has a team morale and match preparation module, I would think that it is imperative that there is a system for developing young players and creating dynasties. That's what this training provides.

Consider this too: you say that Messi is Messi because of his talents and because he was trained to play in the Barca style, but isn't that the same as taking a hot prospect and focusing his training regime on Technique/Ball Control, Attacking, and Tactics, then implementing a strategy that is similar to Barca's and getting your team 'fluid' in that tactic through the Match Preparation module? I'm sure that through all of the endless hours that Messi played Piggy in the Middle with Cesc and Iniesta (whoever started in the middle must have been in there for a long time!), his first touch, passing and movement was ever-improving.

[GoodControl]

@viewers, but manager works primarily with first team not youth, and in real life he spends a lot of efforts on training of first team. In contrast to that in FM trainings is not very important. I think it should be changed and it should be interesting in terms of gameplay.

[GoodControl]

I was going to say YES to the poll but stopped and realised that FM really does all I need it to do, and then some... including all you suggested in the OP.

Many things you listed is not manageable via trainings, but yes, I agree that you can still impact on your team style via tactics and other settings. But IMHO it is a meter of training and I agree that SI can fix it by implementing new UI. Many things from tactics, instructions and team style is not picked in tactics screen, they are trained in real life. So training system should allow to train your players all of that.

[GoodControl]

@heathxxx

Sorry, but I must disagree with you that Training system is a meter of depth. No, it is a meter of purpose for me. I think that the purpose of training system for first team is not just attributes training. That's never happening in real life. Managers focused on tactics, instructions and style implementation. This things are not just picked as a tactic, they are trained in real life.

[dribbler]

@heathxxx

Sorry, but I must disagree with you that Training system is a meter of depth. No, it is a meter of purpose for me. I think that the purpose of training system for first team is not just attributes training. That's never happening in real life. Managers focused on tactics, instructions and style implementation. This things are not just picked as a tactic, they are trained in real life.

The most important thing for me is that on FM12 the game is starting to take a tremendous amount of time to play. I want a difficult game but it also needs to be playable.

Putting that aside I do think that GoodControl is making a worthwhile suggestion (if I'm understanding correctly)...how about leaving the part of the training that deals with training attributes and incorporating GC's ideas into the Match Preparation module...so you could train your wingbacks to run with the ball and fire in hard low crosses from deep positions or whatever other tactical nuance took your fancy...so there would be a bunch of tactical options available in a new MP module...so there could be a load of specialised shouts which could also be trained in MP.

I'm not too sure if I'm talking a load of garbage but my thought is that instead of MP being limited to a small number of options such as teamwork and attacking movement you would have many dozens of options and you could train more than one of these at once...you would then learn these over time and eventually become fluid at a number of special tactical shouts.

"I recall the initial discussions about how to improve the tactical interface, which quickly lead to the term "Tactical Wizard" being mentioned. I think the same sort of interface might be also useful for the training module. I've often thought a "Training Wizard" would be a useful direction to take for the training module"...good idea

[Graham206]

The most important thing for me is that on FM12 the game is starting to take a tremendous amount of time to play. I want a difficult game but it also needs to be playable.

Putting that aside I do think that GoodControl is making a worthwhile suggestion (if I'm understanding correctly)...how about leaving the part of the training that deals with training attributes and incorporating GC's ideas into the Match Preparation module...so you could train your wingbacks to run with the ball and fire in hard low crosses from deep positions or whatever other tactical nuance took your fancy...so there would be a bunch of tactical options available in a new MP module...so there could be a load of specialised shouts which could also be trained in MP.

I'm not too sure if I'm talking a load of garbage but my thought is that instead of MP being limited to a small number of options such as teamwork and attacking movement you would have many dozens of options and you could train more than one of these at once...you would then learn these over time and eventually become fluid at a number of special tactical shouts.

"I recall the initial discussions about how to improve the tactical interface, which quickly lead to the term "Tactical Wizard" being mentioned. I think the same sort of interface might be also useful for the training module. I've often thought a "Training Wizard" would be a useful direction to take for the training module"...good idea

That's roughly how I feel. The game is already pretty complex and time-consuming and I wouldn't want to introduce too much more difficulty, but the idea of having more options in Match Preparation, say working on crossing, counter-attacks or playing off side, being able to select more than one, you could have ten points to spend, put four into defensive organisation, four into counter-attacking and two into attacking movement for example, and linking these with shouts could be a way to using training time to help shape the way your team plays without over-complicating.

[GoodControl]

@dribbler,

I think that training interface should be inline with tactic interface. And some of the tactical instructions should migrate to training instructions. The reason is that you use tactics for explaining players how to play next match, not more, and any normal player can't remember more then several instructions. So I suggest to left only basic amount of instructions in tactical screen, and migrate all the rest to training screen, so you haven't to pick this training instruction during next match, but you have to train them during whole season.

So, in general, strategic instruction about style of play should be in training screen but more tactical instructions that depends from opponent, weather and other opsticals should be placed in tactical screen. What do you think?

[dribbler]

@dribbler,

I think that training interface should be inline with tactic interface. And some of the tactical instructions should migrate to training instructions. The reason is that you use tactics for explaining players how to play next match, not more, and any normal player can't remember more then several instructions. So I suggest to left only basic amount of instructions in tactical screen, and migrate all the rest to training screen, so you haven't to pick this training instruction during next match, but you have to train them during whole season.

So, in general, strategic instruction about style of play should be in training screen but more tactical instructions that depends from opponent, weather and other opsticals should be placed in tactical screen. What do you think?

Yeah I think I'm starting to think it's a good idea

Training still has to develop players as well though. It's a game of attributes after all. If you want a winger you look for pace, acceleration, dribbling, crossing and a few other things so you need to be able to improve attributes and to shape youngsters into the players you want them to be.

But so long as that part of the training system is still in there in some form I think your idea sounds good. That's why I suggested that it could be added as something extra so that the existing stuff doesn't need to be abandoned.

Let's see what other people think because there are some deep thinkers lurking

[GoodControl]

You are right. I have noticed that usually such topics are popular whan a new version of FM under development, not now. But in fact, it is too late to discuss it whan decisions about features already made.

[Shizzle]

This is how I would imagine it to work:

You go under the training section and select create new training schedule, then you come to a new split screen.

On the left hand side there is the player profile, similar to the way it's presented when you highlight players on the tactics pitch.

Here you can highlight by clicking on the attributes, which of those you would like the player to focus on.

On the right side would be a copy of the ''role-screen'', which you see when you switch between roles like TM or AF in the tactics screen, that's not only going to show the players current attributes, but also the important attributes for the position.

Here you can switch through the different roles or click on or let the AM recommend one that's suitable for the player.

You can then either manually highlight the attributes you wish the player to focus on, or you can use the option ''align with role'', which leads to a training schedule focused on improving the attributes that are selected as being important for that specific role.

Of course you can modify it afterwards and select the ''priority'' of each attribute, each one of them will be displayed by a color.

Red for intense->Heavy focus, highest CA priority

green for medium->medium focus, moderate CA priority

blue for light->low focus, low CA priority

Everything else, maintain for now.

That way you could also change things quickly on the fly when you think you might need to make some adjustments.

You also won't be able to select everything as intense, only a limited number of attributes, same applies to medium and low.

The number of attributes increases as the intensity goes down though, which means basically, you can only select a few attributes for intense training, a bit more for medium and the highest number for low.

This will be regulated by ''training worload'' and player personality.

You will get instant feedback through your AM, telling you that you're pushing player Z with the workload and he might get upset if it's too high in overall workload or induvidual workload for that specific player, as in too much focus on physical attributes or technical ones.

A more professional player can be pushed more without becoming unhappy, because of his training schedule or training workload.

The amount of selectable attributes is identical for all of them though, regardless of personality traits.

If you please you can click on the icon of the right split screen, where the role was, and click on ''advice'', this leads to the right screen changing to a new screen, very much akin to the backround advice screen.

Here your coaches give you advice, which attributes should have priority over others by looking at the players current profile, including PPM's of course.

While you select attributes and all the other fancy new stuff, the game does actually create a training schedule in the background,it's essentially the same system, just with some modifications to make it more intuvitive and more accessible by creating a more fluid interface on top of the current one.

Very similar to the way the TC functions.

[GoodControl]

People has. Different visions of how it must works,but one thing is clear from the pool results, is few people satisfied ith current training system. SI, please, think about it