pigfacemonkeyman Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 It doesn't give you anything. A First Team Coach is restricted to working with the First Team, where a Coach can coach either the First Team or Youth Team. Yes, I know. My question is for Neil Brock, being forced to employ a First Team Coach instead of a Coach might make some sense if they offered something positive, not just the negative that you have pointed out, and I was hoping Neil would tell me what this is. Maybe SI have tweaked First Team Coaches to provide something extra as part of this development. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
milnerpoint Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 The positive is you only give first team coach spots to those not good with younger players, and it is a more attractive position for coaches. There is no point having a coach working with your young players if he is not good at it, the way it is set up now means you have to think a wee bit more when hiring and firing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigfacemonkeyman Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 The positive is you only give first team coach spots to those not good with younger players, and it is a more attractive position for coaches. There is no point having a coach working with your young players if he is not good at it, the way it is set up now means you have to think a wee bit more when hiring and firing. Yeah, thanks for that Neil! So your positive is a negative?:confused: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
milnerpoint Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 There are no negatives, except when you think you are giving your youth players good coaching with staff not suitable for the position, now the game makes you think about it a bit more. You make sure your coaches are suitable for the role you want to them to fill, also offering a very good coach a first team role should help you attract someone maybe not that interested in coming in the first place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themadsheep2001 Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Not really sure why people are looking it as a positive or negative, it was pretty much a fix to stop an exploit. Most clubs have coaches in specific roles. Though i second Barsides suggestions in #38 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackter Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 First Team Coach works with only the first team Coach works with all players It means that the bigger your squad, the less effective your general coaches become. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigfacemonkeyman Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 First Team Coach works with only the first teamCoach works with all players It means that the bigger your squad, the less effective your general coaches become. That depends on what you set them to do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigfacemonkeyman Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 There are no negatives, except when you think you are giving your youth players good coaching with staff not suitable for the position, now the game makes you think about it a bit more. You make sure your coaches are suitable for the role you want to them to fill, also offering a very good coach a first team role should help you attract someone maybe not that interested in coming in the first place. Except the probably inflated wage to go with the title. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackter Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 That depends on what you set them to do. Yes, but that's the general reason behind there being specialities. You set up special Youth and First Team Coaches for the main areas and then have the general coaches supporting them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigfacemonkeyman Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 It is a naff development. Out of interest, why "fix" it now? It isn't like this in FM10, was it in FM11? I don't recall seeing any posts about it and it wasn't deemed important enough to introduce it in the original release of FM12. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rekluse Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Deja vu. This is how it worked in previous versions when the ability to change coach roles via boardroom was put in place, and just as in now many people do not like this and it was changed to allow the player more freedom and I have not seen any complaints about it since. First, if your going to have this feature then you should implement sliders to allow players to ask the board to make more coach roles available versus youth roles, etc. Why should I be forced to have a smaller coaching staff just because I don't want a large youth team that requires 3+ coaches, or vice versa and I cannot have a large youth team because I can no longer split the role of coach between first/youth? Second, why is this even on the priority list? If someone wanted to have specialized roles for coaches then hire specialized, if someone wanted all coaches then so be it. Let your customers play how they want, especially until you guys devise some new features for the coaching staff which seems to be largely ignored compared to the features rolled out for scouts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfgrigg Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Whilst it does make more sense in the game to have loads of general coaches rather than specialists, in real life most big clubs have a mixture of first team and youth coaches. The change is designed for realism. I think it's good - it's always felt a little exploitative that I could just appoint a load of general coaches and have them cover everything just as effectively as specialists. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackter Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 It is a naff development. Out of interest, why "fix" it now? It isn't like this in FM10, was it in FM11? I don't recall seeing any posts about it and it wasn't deemed important enough to introduce it in the original release of FM12. In the earlier games it was in the fixed state. I think FM11 was the first that allowed complete freedom in this area. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigfacemonkeyman Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 In the earlier games it was in the fixed state. I think FM11 was the first that allowed complete freedom in this area. No, FM10 (.3 at least) is in the "unfixed" state also. Do you know why it suddenly became important to change it nearly two months and five updates after release? (not forgetting the last two years/versions!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackter Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 As much as I wish SI consulted me before every change they make, sadly they dont Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vurogj Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 If this is the intended path for the boardroom telling me how THEY think I should set up MY coaches, then please please please make it easier for me to convince coaches to accept a different role than the one they prefer. Even better, let me tell a coach his stats mean he's a terrible specialist, and I'm hiring him for some other reason (his motivational skills, his judging of players abilities, his tactical knowledge, heck, even for his foreign player knowledge sometimes). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigfacemonkeyman Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 As much as I wish SI consulted me before every change they make, sadly they dont I'm sorry to hear that. I will have to wait for Neil Brock to respond after all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nocuous Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 This is wrong.Better staff increases the club's reputation and training rating, which are both factors that can contribute to persuade a player to choose you over other clubs. Good coaches also tend to have better knowledge of nations and this may contribute to let you find better youth candidates each March. It barely makes a difference in these aspects. It's the training facilities rather than the coaching set-up which wil help entice players. Anyway, very often the coaches your getting rid of won't be considered much lesser than the ones you're bringing in, people just sack them in order to get 'specialised coaches' that will give them the 5 star on a particular training section (which as I mentioned before, is rather unnecessary). So unless a club you arrive at has it's coaching staff in a really bad state, there's very little reason if at all to send them all packing. I'm not saying keep the current set-up forever more, I'm just saying perhaps bring one or two new guys in, but at least get your money's worth for the guys already there instead of paying them to leave. Just think about the concept of paying someone to leave, and you'll soon realise how it literally makes no sense at all. I do accept it's a different kettle of fish for scouts however. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BungleFish Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 This seems like a cheap fix to me tbh. I'm sure it wasn't a lazy one as SI stated they tested it and such but I hope a better solution is on the way in next major patch or next year. I think the manager should have more control over the type of staff he wants. For instance, you may want to have a more homogenized training group with 10 picked youngsters training with the seniors so you would want to get another senior coach or two with good youth development skills but you cannot since the board arbitrarily assigns certain numbers to certain roles. The example I gave is (as far as I know) becoming more popular with the managing through philosophy, rather than results, thing going on. Even if it's not the point still stands. What if "I" wanted to manage that way.Perhaps the system could be more flexible in that each role has floors and ceilings in terms of numbers. For instance the board says you should employ 4 youth coaches but under no circumstances are you to go under 3 and for general coaching you can employ up to 3 but cannot go over unless you minus and add from other roles. Still make it strict as it currently stands but maybe add a bit more freedom so you can employ that last 1 or 2 first team/general coach (perhaps coaches who seem to have the ability to offer you sound backroom advice instead of any real training ability) to round off your staff. this........ (oh and on a side note, suikoden is the greatest RPG ever) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiggusD Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 First Team Coach works with only the first teamCoach works with all players It means that the bigger your squad, the less effective your general coaches become. Yes this is realistic, but there are no indications in the game regarding the efficiency and workload of the coaches. A coach can work with 50+ players, first team and youth combined, without having his workload turn to Average. Since the coach setup now requires more micromanagement, we need more information in order to do it properly. We need sliders showing us coach workload vs training efficiency, and the coach star rating in the youth training categories must reflect that the coaching job done by general coaches is worse than that of youth coaches even though the Working with Youngsters attribute is the same. The reason I haven't bothered with youth coaches in years is that there are no incentives in the game to hire them at all. If FM showed me that general coaches do a poor job compared to youth coaches, I would certainly do something about that. This way the two changes to training in 12.1.0; the coach setup + players in the youth team training youth schedules regardless of contract, would be less of a pointless nuisance and more like an additional aspect of the game to master. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
syntheticdeejay Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 You can see it on the 'boardroom' screen under staff. Just stop messing with things that work! I didnt hear anyone complaining about the way it was before! I PLAY the GAME to have fun - we're not actually football managers. Its a game! If the board say i can have 6 coaches - let me decide what 6 coaches best work for me! Absolutely ridiculous - the number of pathetic, half cut meaningless "updates" that are released is staggering. The game should represent what the gamers want and nobody on planet earth ever sat down and said "ya know, i wish the board here would make my job harder - its just too easy"..............reverse this update and give back the control to the manager...to the GAMER. Whats next? A chairmen wont let ya sign a player because he thinks you have enough people? Why not call it Football Chairman 2012......all you're doing is annoying your consumer base and driving seasoned and long standing players onto another game. Undo this change and dont fix what isnt broken! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OlieIsArsenal Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Actually people did complain the game is too easy. this update makes it slightly harder.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
syntheticdeejay Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 It takes away the choice. If people out there in the world actually believe they are the next Sir Alex Ferguson or Jose Mourinho - power to them, but this is a game and for those people who treat it as such, the option of how they manage their football club should sit with them. The choice should be given to the gamer - if you want "ultra realism" then that should be a separate mode where the board do interfere and fans can abuse you at matches if your team is playing poorly. But if you want to enjoy this for what it is, a game, that should be an option too! If its too easy, tweak the AI of the opposition - dont restrict control of the manager......this wont make the opposition tougher - it just makes things harder for you......thats cutting your nose off to spite your face Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TGP Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 I still havent seen a response from SI as to why they think it was a good idea for this to be fixed. i was really happy when i thought they had finally gotten rid of the stupid board mandated segregation of staff. This game should be progressing towards more flexibility in what players can do -- not less. I understand in real life coaches have titles like "goalkeeping coach" however i doubt the board of major clubs care at all what titles and how many coaches there are as long as the salary is under the staff budget. I expect that soon we will see that only coaches with the title "goalkeeping coach" will be able to coach goal keepers and that only "fitness coaches" can coach fitness. it is a totally formalistic way of doing things that takes the game further from real life and not closer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnet_steve Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Many teams in real life, the Manager and maybe the assistant coach the first team. Some of the Physio and fitness coaching is done by the same person ie the physio is also a fitness coach. The Goalkeeping coach maybe a specialist role but there cannot be too many teams with 20+ coaches plus assistant manager, manager, numerous physios etc. They are just not needed. Even Barcelona have very few 'coaches'. This is picked up in the game too. If you start as Barcelona you have to take into account that you as manager are not able to coach the team. If SI want to make the game more reallistic in this aspect then some staff must be able to be dual roled and the manager ie. me must be included in coaching the team too, especially at smaller clubs, clubs with a tradition of the manager being first team coach or if you want to be a hands on manager. To limit the types of coaches is surely not the way forward. A staff wage budget would be the best way to go. Only problem with this is the star ratings system. Example. A team like Man City has money to burn. In theory they could hire the best coaches in the world no matter what the cost. In game this means a coach for each specific area to get maximum stars. In real life they would have less coaches as some would double up. The attacking coach may also be brilliant with shooting. The tactics coach could be the same with defending. The GK coach takes handling and shot stopping. Why have two seperate ones and say that they are less effective because their time is split. They are teaching goalkeeping and they will not be trying to teach 100+ players at a time. Same with fitness coaches. Surely clubs do not have specific staff to train aerobics and others to train strength ? But this is the way the game is set out to make you employ 2 specific coaches to achieve the maximum benefit. If SI are to tinker with this, please think about it and maybe do a full revamp for next year. At the moment it is not ideal, but with the changes in the new patch, it is also extremely frustrating and probably even less reallistic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
McGougan33 Posted January 6, 2012 Author Share Posted January 6, 2012 Christ I've created a monster with this thread! I now understand the concept and the wisdom behind this, and I must say combined with my training schedules, I'm finding it relatively easy to develop my players, even more turbo charged than the last patch! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AjaxNo1 Posted January 6, 2012 Share Posted January 6, 2012 You have opened a can of worms with this, I must admit once I worked out what was going on, I prefer it this way Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiggusD Posted January 7, 2012 Share Posted January 7, 2012 You have opened a can of worms with this, I must admit once I worked out what was going on, I prefer it this way Yes me too, but I actually want the whole training star-rating system to be replaced in future versions. I think the argument that the board shouldn't tell the manager how he should set up his coaches and training is very sound. The argument that real-life top football clubs don't necessarily have 20+ coaches (or 30+ scouts) but still has high quality training is also sound. In FM you need one coach to focus on only one particular training area in order for him to be the most efficient, and that is unrealistic since coaching is teamwork and SI can't know if one coach is best at GK handling or GK shot stopping. The star-rating of coaching at your club is not overly important for training quality. SI has toned that down, so that half-a-star between 3-star (average) and 3,5 star (good) coaching is negligible and isn't worth seeking out at huge cost to the club. Thus, the whole system is not very informative. The manager would also not get overly involved in -how- a player is supposed to become better suited to the tactic, so the adjusting of sliders should not be something the manager controls (as detailed as this). Rather, the manager would be more likely to instruct his coaches to focus on an individual player's physique, defending or creative skills and trust them to do their job properly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
McGougan33 Posted January 7, 2012 Author Share Posted January 7, 2012 I reckon the template for next year should be set as, minimum 1 fitness coach, minimum 1 goalkeeping coach, 1 attack and 1 defence, then say 3 1st team coaches, which would allow for your specialists, and 3 youth coaches, again developing the youth predominantly. I imagine at the majority of clubs the coaching staff isn't huge, and potentially there is only one gk coach etc! Thoughts? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigfacemonkeyman Posted January 8, 2012 Share Posted January 8, 2012 I reckon they put it back to how it was and let the person who knows what is required to coach the team the way he wants choose the coaches, i.e. the Manager. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaya Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Not sure if I was thorough enough in going through the thread, but has this particular issue been resolved? I.e. - why can't we hire the number of youth/1st team/ordinary coaches which is allowed by the board? I am playing with Parma which has excellent youth facilities and recruitment, but my board cancels the signing of every coach I approach - even though I only have 1 coach and the board allows a maximum of 3!(or so it says) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OohAhhCantona Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 It's rather stupid for SI to make the board so strict with staff roles, it ruins what many seem to want to do with their backroom staff, why not just implement the director of football to sign your players too if you are going to be THAT "realistic" this is the only thing SI have done wrong with the game for 2 years Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BiggusD Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Not sure if I was thorough enough in going through the thread, but has this particular issue been resolved? I.e. - why can't we hire the number of youth/1st team/ordinary coaches which is allowed by the board? I am playing with Parma which has excellent youth facilities and recruitment, but my board cancels the signing of every coach I approach - even though I only have 1 coach and the board allows a maximum of 3!(or so it says) There is a maximum limit for all coaches at the club, regardless of coach role. Then there are limits for each coach role. If the maximum is 10, and you have 10 coaches, and you have signed 3 youth coaches even though the max is 1, then you can't sign any more coaches at all. Some clubs would have room for 9 coaches at the club, 3 of which are youth coaches when you take over. Since you need 9 coaches to specialize in all training areas, the sensible thing to do would be to fire the three youth coaches and hire three general coaches instead. This is an exploit. SI tried to fix this exploit by making the coach roles mandatory. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcornell68 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Why aren't the staff numbers already balanced when you start a new club? The same rules should have applied to the previous manager. Sometimes it's easier and cheaper to offer good general coaches new contracts with specialist roles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
x42bn6 Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Training and staff in general needs an overhaul, and has needed it for years now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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