Explosion in London Underground

[Sir Bert Preast]

How do we "address the issues", though?

[Gordon Comstock]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast:

How do we "address the issues", though? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>through MTV's Rock the Vote campaign!

VOTE OR DIE, BITCH

[Sir Bert Preast]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andy Jordan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast:

How do we "address the issues", though? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>through MTV's Rock the Vote campaign!

VOTE OR DIE, BITCH </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I still think you're a ****, you know.

[mr.moustache]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andy Jordan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast:

How do we "address the issues", though? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>through MTV's Rock the Vote campaign!

VOTE OR DIE, BITCH </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

. Well yeah, if I knew how to 'address issues', I'd be dead or a celebreated genious, etc. But seriously, I know that seeing things from the perspective of others is one of the greatest problems this world faces. However, it has got to be the only real way to solve problems. I would say that historically, forcing issues 'under the carpet', with a show of force, has never resulted in a lasting, peaceful solution, which both sides are happy with.

[mr.moustache]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mr.moustache:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andy Jordan:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast:

How do we "address the issues", though? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>through MTV's Rock the Vote campaign!

VOTE OR DIE, BITCH </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

. Well yeah, if I knew how to 'address issues', I'd be dead or a celebrated* genious, etc. But seriously, I know that seeing things from the perspective of others is one of the greatest problems this world faces. However, it has got to be the only real way to solve problems. I would say that historically, forcing issues 'under the carpet', with a show of force, has never resulted in a lasting, peaceful solution, which both sides are happy with. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Sir Bert Preast]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mr.moustache:

. Well yeah, if I knew how to 'address issues', I'd be dead or a celebreated genious, etc. But seriously, I know that seeing things from the perspective of others is one of the greatest problems this world faces. However, it has got to be the only real way to solve problems. I would say that historically, forcing issues 'under the carpet', with a show of force, has never resulted in a lasting, peaceful solution, which both sides are happy with. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I honestly can't see me ever seeing things from the perspective of those who would control my home and put me under sharia law. I'd die first.

[mr.moustache]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mr.moustache:

. Well yeah, if I knew how to 'address issues', I'd be dead or a celebreated genious, etc. But seriously, I know that seeing things from the perspective of others is one of the greatest problems this world faces. However, it has got to be the only real way to solve problems. I would say that historically, forcing issues 'under the carpet', with a show of force, has never resulted in a lasting, peaceful solution, which both sides are happy with. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I honestly can't see me ever seeing things from the perspective of those who would control my home and put me under sharia law. I'd die first. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well that's a bit short sighted isn't it? Is that really what would happen?

[mr.moustache]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mr.moustache:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mr.moustache:

. Well yeah, if I knew how to 'address issues', I'd be dead or a celebreated genious, etc. But seriously, I know that seeing things from the perspective of others is one of the greatest problems this world faces. However, it has got to be the only real way to solve problems. I would say that historically, forcing issues 'under the carpet', with a show of force, has never resulted in a lasting, peaceful solution, which both sides are happy with. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I honestly can't see me ever seeing things from the perspective of those who would control my home and put me under sharia law. I'd die first. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well that's a bit short sighted isn't it? Is that really what would happen? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Infact, that may well be the attitude of the people that become terrorists, ie, they feel like that aginst the West.

[MattyT]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast:

How do we "address the issues", though? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

by not selling arms to brutal dictators, not imposing sanctions that cause the deaths of over a million innocent people, not bombing the hell out of innocent Afghans because there may or may not be some terrorists in the area. not looking the other way when israeli F-16s drop cluster bombs in Damour that kill hundreds of children.

for a start.

the issue that needs addressing is that western governments show complete and utter contempt for life in the Middle East (and elsewhere). so it's little wonder that some of those people view our citizens in a similar light.

[mr.moustache]

Pretty much exactly what I'm suggesting Matty, if you show hatred to their way of life, you can be sure that some people rom their side will reciprocate. Wihtout the inital causes of hatred, would these people really want to casue you harm, or plant bombs in your country?

[mr.moustache]

That doesn't mean I think it is right, on either side, to use that kind of force. The people who plants bombs are still as bad as the troops that pull the triggers. Sure, they may be more desperate, but its still killing.

[Sir Bert Preast]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mr.moustache:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast:

I honestly can't see me ever seeing things from the perspective of those who would control my home and put me under sharia law. I'd die first. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well that's a bit short sighted isn't it? Is that really what would happen? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What do you mean? I mean AQ want the world under sharia law, and my home is considered by them to be muslim land (Andalucia). I can't ever see me and them managing to arrive at a compromise, can you?

[Daaaaave]

ahahahahahaha Matty basically man from mars with his understanding of the world?

please quote from imagine next mate, it'll be so poignant? m

[ceefax the cat]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ceefax the cat:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Raptor:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ceefax the cat:

Certainly, I'd just argue that the pain and anguish you suffered at the thought of your tax money being wasted was easily equal to that of being bombed and impoverished to suit the economic needs of a more powerful country.

Oh wait. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

a) It doesn't matter does it? It's all about people claiming they have a valid excuse to go on an indiscriminate killing spree.

b) The point I was trying to put across is that we should stop to try and come up with reasons why people do the things they do, and just accept some are pure evil, and need to be exterminated. At all cost. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

a) It does matter. The two situations can't be compared. One is at best mildly irritating, the other might have involved someone's family getting blown up. It doesn't take a genius to see that if someone believes that their family and friends have been blown up for someone else's economic gain, they might think it acceptable to blow some people up in revenge. It's NOT RIGHT, but it's understandable. Going on a killing spree because you think your tax money is being wasted is not. Very obviously.

b) They were not born evil. Their experiences and the ideas, right or not, that were impressed upon them, made them capable of evil behaviour. And it would be wrong to ignore where those factors came from, if we have a genuine interest in preventing it from happening in the future, rather than looking no further than a vengeful response of our own next time it does happen.

Christ. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's from 2 pages ago... We ain't come very far. I was thinking about having a check to see if any of the people now talking about "addressing the issues" were among those slagging off Galloway earlier on.

[Sir Bert Preast]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MattyT:

the issue that needs addressing is that western governments show complete and utter contempt for life in the Middle East (and elsewhere). so it's little wonder that some of those people view our citizens in a similar light. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How's that then? We show them complete and utter contempt by sending them masses of aid and giving them the fruits of our research?

[Sir Bert Preast]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mr.moustache:

Pretty much exactly what I'm suggesting Matty, if you show hatred to their way of life, you can be sure that some people rom their side will reciprocate. Wihtout the inital causes of hatred, would these people really want to casue you harm, or plant bombs in your country? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They want to dominate the world. Can't you grasp the situation?

[MattyT]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daaaaave:

ahahahahahaha Matty basically man from mars with his understanding of the world?

please quote from imagine next mate, it'll be so poignant? m </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

good point mate, well made.

[Daaaaave]

bert mate, I got an ampersand in the state of the board thread?

ampersands make me miss gimpeh :*(r

[Daaaaave]

mate, making points with men from mars blatantly a waste of my talents? read a couple books and come back and we'll have a mighty pow wow? you bring the wampum? l

[mr.moustache]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mr.moustache:

Pretty much exactly what I'm suggesting Matty, if you show hatred to their way of life, you can be sure that some people rom their side will reciprocate. Wihtout the inital causes of hatred, would these people really want to casue you harm, or plant bombs in your country? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They aren't the only ones. See capitalism debates.

They want to dominate the world. Can't you grasp the situation? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[mr.moustache]

You get what I mean. Don't start making out that there's only thinkers on your side of the debate.

[Sir Bert Preast]

Here's a good example: Today the G8 announce 3 billion dollars in aid for Palestine. Now, the game is to go to the Al Jazeera website and see if you can spot this story.

Not too tricky, you'd imagine - after all they report on all things Palestinian right down to whenever Abbas cuts his toenails. Think again. There are 12 stories relating to Palestinians on the Arab world news page, but no mention of 3 billion in aid?

[TheCranker]

tbf Bert I bet we haven't got the 12 other stories in our papers.

[mr.moustache]

There are examples on both sides for and against both arguements.

[mr.moustache]

......And I'm not for either side, not at least for any parties that are pig headed enough to believe that their point of view is the only correct one, because no-one will ever achieve anything with that attitude.

[ceefax the cat]

Daaaaaaave.... please.... the question marks.... please stop. It subtracts so much credibility from anything you say - it's as though you're being channeled by one of the younger, less intelligent characters from Neighbours, and gives your every remark an inconsequential, immature, sarcastic flavour. You used to sound (read?) intelligent, I think...

But since you jumped on that bandwagon you seem less so? Mate?

For what it's worth, MattyT has a good point, and the thrust of what he's saying is correct - it's always constructive to examine the root causes of conflict and to try to address them. In this case, it's very easy to see that western policy in the middle east has embittered a large number of people from that region to a point where they feel justified in killing us indiscriminately. You'd have to have the intellect of a child not to be able to empathise to a certain degree.

However, we have to accept that there are issues at stake which cannot logically be resolved. We are too far down the road - whether we started it or not, a hateful agenda has passed down the generations and become enshrined - it's an ideology, a law and a religion and it's no longer open to negotiation or compromise. Now we have to deal with that, and even though it limits our ability to 'address the issues', we should not give up and descend blindly into tit-for-tat carnage.

imo.

[Jeroen Thijssen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daaaaave:

bert mate, I got an ampersand in the state of the board thread?

ampersands make me miss gimpeh :*(r </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you putting up some kind of hidden message, like every single post finishes with an individual character ---- freaky

[Moshi Moshe Mohammed]

Don't have time to read the last few pages in full, but is Cranker basically arguing that terrorists are no worse than anyone else who's ever fought a war? \o/

[mr.moustache]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ceefax the cat:

Daaaaaaave.... please.... the question marks.... please stop. It subtracts so much credibility from anything you say - it's as though you're being channeled by one of the younger, less intelligent characters from Neighbours, and gives your every remark an inconsequential, immature, sarcastic flavour. You used to sound (read?) intelligent, I think...

But since you jumped on that bandwagon you seem less so? Mate?

For what it's worth, MattyT has a good point, and the thrust of what he's saying is correct - it's always constructive to examine the root causes of conflict and to try to address them. In this case, it's very easy to see that western policy in the middle east has embittered a large number of people from that region to a point where they feel justified in killing us indiscriminately. You'd have to have the intellect of a child not to be able to empathise to a certain degree.

However, we have to accept that there are issues at stake which cannot logically be resolved. We are too far down the road - whether we started it or not, a hateful agenda has passed down the generations and become enshrined - it's an ideology, a law and a religion and it's no longer open to negotiation or compromise. Now we have to deal with that, and even though it limits our ability to 'address the issues', we should not give up and descend blindly into tit-for-tat carnage.

imo. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yaah, tit for tat carnage is definately undesirable from my point of view.

[Sir Bert Preast]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mr.moustache:

You get what I mean. Don't start making out that there's only thinkers on your side of the debate. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Erm, you called me short sighted, and Matty called me a moron. I think I'm entitled to be a teensy bit offensive now and then, no?

[Sir Bert Preast]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheCranker:

tbf Bert I bet we haven't got the 12 other stories in our papers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why should we? Al Jazeera specialises in reporting anything Palestinian where they can make the west look bad, and pointedly ignores anything that may be in danger of making their audience like us.

[mr.moustache]

I said it was short sighted to think that every muslim wants to control you, or control the world. Really, its far more likely that most muslims will believe it or not, want to live peacefully. The fundamentalists dont account for every muslim, whether they control other muslims or not.

[Sir Bert Preast]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mr.moustache:

......And I'm not for either side, not at least for any parties that are pig headed enough to believe that their point of view is the only correct one, because no-one will ever achieve anything with that attitude. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I pointed out, there can't be compromise. Poles apart, you see.

[Sir Bert Preast]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mr.moustache:

I said it was short sighted to think that every muslim wants to control you, or control the world. Really, its far more likely that most muslims will believe it or not, want to live peacefully. The fundamentalists dont account for every muslim, whether they control other muslims or not. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where have I mentioned "every muslim" ffs? Why do you immediately assume I blame all muslims?

[TheCranker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheCranker:

tbf Bert I bet we haven't got the 12 other stories in our papers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why should we? Al Jazeera specialises in reporting anything Palestinian where they can make the west look bad, and pointedly ignores anything that may be in danger of making their audience like us. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's my point. They do how great the Middle East and and how evil we are and we do how great we are and how evil the Middle East is.

[Daaaaave]

ceefax mate, you're a geordie np? if I'm not inconsequential and immature, I'll have no confidence I'll be understood? it's just a posting style amigo, not the end of the world?

red lad, I'm on a mac at work on some ancient form of netscape and my system has aids? we should make a conversion to dells in the coming weeks and the problem should go away? I'll miss the ampersands thougha

[Sir Bert Preast]

My tattoo reads "kill jihadis", not "kill muslims".

Though admittedly for all I know it could read "hello big boy, fancy a good time?".

[mr.moustache]

When you said "

They want to dominate the world. Can't you grasp the situation?", I assumed you meant 'Muslims'. In the case that you just meant a few nutters, then it's even more likely that you acknowledge that there are peaceful Muslims, and if that's the case, surely it's worth trying to work for peace with those people? Also, it means you are not really 'Poles apart'.

[ceefax the cat]

I'd hesitate to use the word 'style' Daaaaave.

[Sir Bert Preast]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheCranker:

That's my point. They do how great the Middle East and and how evil we are and we do how great we are and how evil the Middle East is. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're saying the BBC is a pro western propaganda machine? That it never reports on Israeli atrocities? FFS, the other day 2 Pally homes getting flattened came higher up the list than entire shanty towns copping it in Zimbabwe.

[Daaaaave]

and if we're going to look at root causes for the conflict, can we stop pussyfooting around the region's interpretation of their religion as a constant crusade, their subjugation of their women, their hatred of any sort of modernisation, and their love of scapegoating Jews for any problem they'll ever have in life?

maybe if their leaders would stop pretending they were saladin in jerusalem, they'd have a bit more luck in understand the great satan?k

[Sir Bert Preast]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mr.moustache:

When you said "

They want to dominate the world. Can't you grasp the situation?", I assumed you meant 'Muslims'. In the case that you just meant a few nutters, then it's even more likely that you acknowledge that there are peaceful Muslims, and if that's the case, surely it's worth trying to work for peace with those people? Also, it means you are not really 'Poles apart'. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd say not more than about 20% of muslims dig world domination, tbh.

[mr.moustache]

And good point, TheCranker. There are people on both sides that do nothing to help the situation, it's not a case of just them being wrong, or just us being wrong.

[MattyT]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TheCranker:

That's my point. They do how great the Middle East and and how evil we are and we do how great we are and how evil the Middle East is. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

seriously, it can't be long before the FOX news ticker reads:

... WAR IS PEACE ... FREEDOM IS SLAVERY ... IGNORANGE IS STRENGTH ...

[mr.moustache]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daaaaave:

and if we're going to look at root causes for the conflict, can we stop pussyfooting around the region's interpretation of their religion as a constant crusade, their subjugation of their women, their hatred of any sort of modernisation, and their love of scapegoating Jews for any problem they'll ever have in life?

maybe if their leaders would stop pretending they were saladin in jerusalem, they'd have a bit more luck in understand the great satan?k </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It impossible to deny that from a non-muslim perspective, there are things that just don't seem correct, but western societies are far from perfect. Theres plenty of scapegoating, misuse of power, etc.

[Daaaaave]

mate, way to completely try to evade my point in the most amateurish way possible.

"yeah, well you guys aren't all that either" basically no excuse? H

[Daaaaave]

from a non-muslim perspective :*)

U

[Sir Bert Preast]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mr.moustache:

It impossible to deny that from a non-muslim perspective, there are things that just don't seem correct, but western societies are far from perfect. Theres plenty of scapegoating, misuse of power, etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can we remember what happened the last time a western power decided to blame a religious minority for it's ills?

[mr.moustache]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daaaaave:

mate, way to completely try to evade my point in the most amateurish way possible.

"yeah, well you guys aren't all that either" basically no excuse? H </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok ok, I lack the knowledge to tackle those points, so I wont even try. But you get plenty of people taking Chirtsianity the wrong way, to suit their own ends, don't you?

[mr.moustache]

Whatever my shortcomings, theres still no absolute right or wrong, from either side, and no amount of education or argument can hide that.