Explosion in London Underground

[Jason the Yank]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Secret_squirrel:

Mi espanol est no perfecto pero functional </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

****ing gringo.

[Jason the Yank]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mr.moustache:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast:

Has nobody else any idea as to what the next move should be, then?

Nobody even want to rip my post to shreds? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd try, but I don't think anyones willing to do the everbody get together, try to love one another thing </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hearing people singing Kum-Ba-Ya makes me want to shoot them.

[merry_miller]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jason the Yank:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Juventino4Life:

So what happens now, with London getting hit, what is the next move? What do you guys believe the top nations should do? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We leave the Middle East and let it burn. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Start a war with Iran

[mr.moustache]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jason the Yank:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mr.moustache:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast:

Has nobody else any idea as to what the next move should be, then?

Nobody even want to rip my post to shreds? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd try, but I don't think anyones willing to do the everbody get together, try to love one another thing </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hearing people singing Kum-Ba-Ya makes me want to shoot them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Americans and guns.

[Jason the Yank]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mr.moustache:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jason the Yank:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mr.moustache:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast:

Has nobody else any idea as to what the next move should be, then?

Nobody even want to rip my post to shreds? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd try, but I don't think anyones willing to do the everbody get together, try to love one another thing </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hearing people singing Kum-Ba-Ya makes me want to shoot them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Americans and guns. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's the Kum-Ba-Ya more than the guns.

[Jason the Yank]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by miller_merry:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jason the Yank:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Juventino4Life:

So what happens now, with London getting hit, what is the next move? What do you guys believe the top nations should do? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We leave the Middle East and let it burn. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Start a war with Iran </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Re-read the first part of what I said, Sparky.

[Moshi Moshe Mohammed]

BTW It's ironic that a man who started a thread about bombs exploding in London Underground is named "defusion".

[TheCranker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daaaaave:

I may be antagonistic, but not that clever?

"you think too much of me kid, I'm not that clever" \o/ \o/ \o/Å’ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

;-)

i think one of the things i've learned from discussions around here is that once you get the smart users here to actually freely talk about whats on their mind (DJ, Cranker, Ensign, Kuglen, etc) you find out there's really not all that much difference between the various positions, and that the whole business of "left-wing" vs "right-wing" and euros vs yanks is really just a bunch of b.s. once you get down to it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

tbf Moshi I've always known that. It's why I'm always considerate of your views irrespective of what they are. Same with Daaaaaave and AK.

[Cappo Smiffy]

Squizza good to hear about Carmen.

One of my close mates works as a platform supervisor and has said that as part of the "upped" security, loads more guards have been on patrol, they've had to regualrly search trains (including every time one terminates) and earlier on rang me to let me know Stratford, east ham and somewhere else had been evacuated, presumably due to a suspect package or something.

Round here we've had an actual noticible amount of police present on the streets/roads, even a copper standing by a garage exit next to the police station at all times

Has been a bit weird though as some double stabbing&murder incident happend down the road in the town centre, causing large areas to be blocked off including my place of work ( ) so basically I'm wondering what tomorrow will bring?

[Cappo Smiffy]

From (bizzarely) Chinease and Bangladesh newspapers:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

No more undergrounds!

AFP, Lisbon

Tottenham's Portuguese midfielder Pedro Mendes says he will no longer ride the London underground in the wake of the bomb blasts that killed at least 37.

"I have taken the undergound many times and there was never any hint that an attack like this could occur. If you were to ask me today if I would ride the underground again, I would say no," he told Portuguese daily Correio da Manha.

"The attacks really shook up the English people, who were happy to have been chosen to host the 2012 Olympics," he added.

London club Tottenham signed the 26-year-old from FC Porto for two million pounds in July 2004.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mendes would be on of the first people I'd seek comment from, what with that whole terrorism/Portuguese/London underground connection he has going on

[Daaaaave]

spurs have their very own sh*t version of bergkamp?

[Henry_14]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daaaaave:

spurs have their very own sh*t version of bergkamp? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[TheCranker]

Not sure if the criticism of Chomsky and his readers as "not doing a ****ing thing" is entirely accurate. His writings encourages people to see things a certain way. If he influences enough people it changes the political environment and this influences governtment policy. Thinking moves on and this is part of the process. That's the purpose of the intellectual.

[TheCranker]

As for what we should do. It's diffiuclt because by aligning ourselves with America we've become part of an ideological war that I don't believe needs fighting. Britain needs to realign itself with Europe and while I know you'll criticise that as an act of doing nothing I believe that in this case, doing nothing would be the best path. We've made a mistake and now we're paying the price for it. Finish what we started in Iraq and then reconsider our foreign policy because it isn't working.

[Sir Bert Preast]

What should our foreign policy be changed to?

You think on the domestic front it's best we do nothing? That does seem to be the government's line of thinking too, judging by the way they're weighting the message that we can't be 100% secure (which I agree with) and that such attacks cannot be stopped (which I don't).

[TheCranker]

It can't be changed radically because as I'm sure will be pointed out, doing nothing is how we ended up with Rwanda. It's a balance. We're doing the wrong things at the moment. The world no longer trusts out integrity so we become legitimate targets. I agree that such attacks can't be stopped without loss of freedoms that make the attacks almost preferable. We need to regain our international integrity.

[mr.moustache]

Does that mean moving away from the US and towards intergration with Europe?

[Sir Bert Preast]

Is your opinion that we have actually lost our integrity, or that we have lost our integrity in the eyes of the world?

[Guest]

So now would be a really unfortunate time to release this novel then.

[Sir Bert Preast]

Timing.

He'll make a mint.

[Daaaaave]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast:

Only voting for the properly educated, you mean? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

only voting for soldiers, the heinlein way.

[Sir Bert Preast]

As I said, the properly educated?

[DJ]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast:

Has nobody else any idea as to what the next move should be, then?

Nobody even want to rip my post to shreds? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hola! Que tal? (That's about exhausted my Spanish, unfortunately ).

The sort of measures you describe there basically turn countries that would do this into fortresses, with horrible consequences for economic and personal liberty for everyone.

Exactly what the terrorists want.

My gut feeling about this one is: don't panic. Sorry to be harsh, but 50-ish dead is nothing compared to lots of things. All there is, is the terror. Let London during the Blitz be the example of what to do next: continue breathing.

Let the police do their jobs, they will find the people who did it or they will find they are gone. Would be nice to see them imprisoned, but their act can't be undone anyway, so why waste time and effort on them? Better to try and forestall the next attempt, but within the context of our own society, not the terrified one the Bin Ladens of this world want it to be, nor the conservative-controlled fortress that the Bushes of this world want it to be.

[Daaaaave]

ahahahahaha DJ using the "the terrorists win" argument

[DJ]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daaaaave:

ahahahahaha DJ using the "the terrorists win" argument </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, the conservatives win, that's much, much worse.

[Sir Bert Preast]

DJ - I'm not panicking. 50 dead is nothing in the grand scale of things. 1000 wouldn't really matter, either.

But do you doubt that the terrorists are looking for ways they can kill 100,000 or even a million? As has been pointed out, the attacks can never be stopped 100%. If we do nothing, we will one fine day get nuked.

How will my ideas mean Britons living in a fortress? Rounding up maybe 1000 people, and refusing almost all muslim asylum applicants doth a pretty pathetic fortress make.

[Sir Bert Preast]

Thinking on things, the scale of the attack does make a difference. After 911 I was literally foaming at the mouth in rage, yet after London I can't say I'm more than annoyed - perhaps even relieved that that was the best they could manage. Or are we just getting used to it?

[Daaaaave]

symbols mean something? what if they had blown up big ben or summat?

[Sir Bert Preast]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daaaaave:

symbols mean something? what if they had blown up big ben or summat? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tbh, that's what I was expecting - and yes, that would have had me raging for the destruction of something in Mecca without a doubt.

But that's not what got me with 911, as it wasn't MY symbol, see?

[Moshi Moshe Mohammed]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DJ:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast:

Has nobody else any idea as to what the next move should be, then?

Nobody even want to rip my post to shreds? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hola! Que tal? (That's about exhausted my Spanish, unfortunately ).

The sort of measures you describe there basically turn countries that would do this into fortresses, with horrible consequences for economic and personal liberty for everyone.

Exactly what the terrorists want.

My gut feeling about this one is: don't panic. Sorry to be harsh, but 50-ish dead is nothing compared to lots of things. All there is, is the terror. Let London during the Blitz be the example of what to do next: continue breathing.

Let the police do their jobs, they will find the people who did it or they will find they are gone. Would be nice to see them imprisoned, but their act can't be undone anyway, so why waste time and effort on them? Better to try and forestall the next attempt, but within the context of our own society, not the terrified one the Bin Ladens of this world want it to be, nor the conservative-controlled fortress that the Bushes of this world want it to be. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

DJ \o/

I think the solution is to continue what we're doing in Iraq and Afghanistan, put pressure on Pakistan to capture OBL, etc.

The Islamic world is in a state of profound identity crisis due to the following reasons, in no particular order:

1) Corrupt dictatorial regimes

2) Post-colonial legacy problems similar to those of Africa

3) Humilation due to relative poverty and military impotency

4) Influence of the Western values that look more enticing than traditional ones

5) National identity issues

Out of these issues comes a lot of social turmoil similar to the kind of internal turmoil that gave rise to fascism and communism in Europe last century. Al-Qaeda and Islamism is the symptom/outcome of such turmoil, it seeks whatever outlet it can find, be it Israel, the West, or local institutions such as in Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Turkey, and so on.

...And this is why strong democratic Arab states would be beneficial, and one can only hope that in 10 years time Iraq and Lebanon, for example, will be established as democracies, and who knows, maybe a few other of the important states there will be on their way?

Until that happens, sh*t will keep happening in our cities, mine is probably next, and there's little we can do about it.. My main fear about that is that they will keep escalating their attacks.

I think Londoners were extremely lucky, not as lucky as WTC '93, but lucky nonetheless -- however I think the *intent* was to wreck much greater carnage, striking one of the busiest transport systems in the world at rush hour with 4 separate bombs -- and it is the intent that should be judged to predict what the next one will be like. The capture of ricin last year in Britain was quite real, wasn't it?

There's not a damn thing we can do to prevent it except hope the security agencies do their job efficiently and well...

[DJ]

Bert, the idea is that even by attempting to let no one with a brown face (I know that's not your proposal, but let me exaggerate to make it clearer) into our countries, you won't be able to stop them doing their stuff (including a dirty bomb or whatever).

Rather than attempt a doomed to failure iron curtain around our free countries, we need to try and weed out the causes for support for these extreme idiots. So long as our governments are doing their best to p off everyone east of the line Moscow-Istanbul, the pool that extremists can be pulled from is infinite.

[Sir Bert Preast]

Mosh - There was no ricin, IIRC, just a plot.

[Sir Bert Preast]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DJ:

I know that's not your proposal, but let me exaggerate to make it clearer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Outrageous.

[Sir Bert Preast]

DJ - I didn't say my ideas would stop any attacks. They'll make it more difficult, though, thus delaying them or making them less effective.

I don't buy the idea that if we're lovely and give all our nukes etc. to the Arab governments we will have peace. You have to bear in mind most of those governments are just as unpopular with the terrorists as ours are.

[Sir Bert Preast]

Mosh - I'd take issue with number 2 on your lists of points. I get tired of hearing about how colonialism was such a disaster for the colonised regions, and how even to this day it is a major source of their ills. It ain't. It's just another excuse as they cast around for other people to blame their own problems on.

[DJ]

Hey there Dan

I agree with what you say, but it's the road to democracy that is, I guess, the main point of difference between mine and more conservative points of view.

I don't think you can force democracy upon a nation by waging war. You p off far more people that way than is beneficial. Just watch Iraq: people generally hate the west, no matter that they have been 'liberated'.

They can look at Afghanistan and see where that liberation gets them: nowhere. Afg. is back where it was when the Sovs invaded, ruled by little criminal locals, with the odd surviving Taliban nutter thrown in to make the nation a tad more unsafe. Where are the forces of freedom to protect the population? A few nests remain, with barely enough soldiers in them to keep them occupied. Situation so unsafe, that even neutral relief organizations like Doctors without Frontiers (correct translation?) have pulled out.

[Moshi Moshe Mohammed]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast:

Mosh - There was no ricin, IIRC, just a plot. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right, I know, I meant "capture of ricin people"

[Moshi Moshe Mohammed]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast:

Mosh - I'd take issue with number 2 on your lists of points. I get tired of hearing about how colonialism was such a disaster for the colonised regions, and how even to this day it is a major source of their ills. It ain't. It's just another excuse as they cast around for other people to blame their own problems on. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well if not for colonialism, they would still be nomads in the desert shagging goats and stuff. Instead they are forced to live in the XXI century, and well, their societal structures and values are a bit behind.

*hopes the PC crowd is out on the town today*

[Sir Bert Preast]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DJ:

I don't think you can force democracy upon a nation by waging war. You p off far more people that way than is beneficial. Just watch Iraq: people generally hate the west, no matter that they have been 'liberated'.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In some cultures a war will not be neccesary - if the dictators are willing to relinquish their grip on power it can be done with little bloodshed. In others the dictators won't give in - and if they have a modern military and the money to keep it loyal you may wait centuries for a successful popular uprising.

[wycombe]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed:

Well if not for colonialism, they would still be nomads in the desert shagging goats and stuff. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

would that be a bad thing?

[DJ]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast:

I don't buy the idea that if we're lovely and give all our nukes etc. to the Arab governments we will have peace. You have to bear in mind most of those governments are just as unpopular with the terrorists as ours are. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's hardly what I'd suggest

We, as the western world, are filthy rich. Absurdly filthy rich. Something like 10% of the world owns 90% of it.

We can buy peace. If we start shelling out money to peaceful countries, they will get 'decadent' like ours, with a population that has too much to loose to go and start unrest. The only problem is: within our own societies, the divide is getting to be the same. 10% among us 'own' the rest. And we 90% pay the bill for the wealth and security of those 10%.

How big do you think the chances were that a random CEO, Lord, or otherwise 'non-average' person got hit on the tube? Zilch. They take care of themselves.

You think that Bush, Blair & Co did not expect a backlash from the invasion of Iraq? They cry their crocodile tears now, but in fact don't give a damn. After all, they personally are safe and none the poorer after the dust settles.

[Moshi Moshe Mohammed]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DJ:

Hey there Dan

I agree with what you say, but it's the road to democracy that is, I guess, the main point of difference between mine and more conservative points of view.

I don't think you can force democracy upon a nation by waging war. You p off far more people that way than is beneficial. Just watch Iraq: people generally hate the west, no matter that they have been 'liberated'.

They can look at Afghanistan and see where that liberation gets them: nowhere. Afg. is back where it was when the Sovs invaded, ruled by little criminal locals, with the odd surviving Taliban nutter thrown in to make the nation a tad more unsafe. Where are the forces of freedom to protect the population? A few nests remain, with barely enough soldiers in them to keep them occupied. Situation so unsafe, that even neutral relief organizations like Doctors without Frontiers (correct translation?) have pulled out. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doctors without "Borders". "Frontiers" are something you explore on a rugged Jeep

Afghanistan is not a proper country so to speak, it is a bunch of mountain people with their poppy problem and tribal system, and I don't think we should care about it in the slightest tbh -- no more than we care about some random place in Africa. It just got a bit much when they actually established a terrorist state, otherwise -- let them do whatever.

Iraq, Iran, Syria, Egypt, S. Arabia, Jordan -- those places are what this is about.

The public opinion polls in Iraq are pretty split on the whole thing, but as far as hating the West, I don't care. In time, the Zarqawi thugs will lose, and a stable government will emerge. A LOT LOT LOT more needs to happen for that government to be democratic -- with all the institutions that go along with democracies and ensure open societies. If in 10 years Iraq will be a democratic state similar to Turkey -- it will be fantastic, and I do think it'll carry over to the rest of the region. 10 years is still a lot sooner than what would've happened had we not tried to accelerate the process by chasing out Saddam.....

...Alternatively, the whole thing will fail, Zarqawi or some other crazy dude, will become Iraq's Supreme Ruler, and we'll be back to Square 1, except worse.

[Sir Bert Preast]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wicom:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed:

Well if not for colonialism, they would still be nomads in the desert shagging goats and stuff. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

would that be a bad thing? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's the big question. We bought them medicines and food imports, and their population is now such that they rely on these things. If they went back to a state of tents and nervous goats their population would need to be cut by more than half.

[Moshi Moshe Mohammed]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wicom:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed:

Well if not for colonialism, they would still be nomads in the desert shagging goats and stuff. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

would that be a bad thing? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bad for goats, but for the herders -- no not at all.

[DJ]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed:

Well if not for colonialism, they would still be nomads in the desert shagging goats and stuff. Instead they are forced to live in the XXI century, and well, their societal structures and values are a bit behind.

*hopes the PC crowd is out on the town today* </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I object - if there had been no colonialism (and it continues until this very day, be it in another form) but fair trade, those nomads would have developed, too, just like we did.

Hey, 100 years ago, there were people in incredibly civil countries like the Netherlands where people lived in mud huts and lived of the peat-winning industry. Development goes very quick, once honest opportunity is introduced.

[Moshi Moshe Mohammed]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DJ:

How big do you think the chances were that a random CEO, Lord, or otherwise 'non-average' person got hit on the tube? Zilch. They take care of themselves.

You think that Bush, Blair & Co did not expect a backlash from the invasion of Iraq? They cry their crocodile tears now, but in fact don't give a damn. After all, they personally are safe and none the poorer after the dust settles. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A lot of rich people died in WTC.

[Sir Bert Preast]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DJ:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast:

I don't buy the idea that if we're lovely and give all our nukes etc. to the Arab governments we will have peace. You have to bear in mind most of those governments are just as unpopular with the terrorists as ours are. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's hardly what I'd suggest

We, as the western world, are filthy rich. Absurdly filthy rich. Something like 10% of the world owns 90% of it.

We can buy peace. If we start shelling out money to peaceful countries, they will get 'decadent' like ours, with a population that has too much to loose to go and start unrest. The only problem is: within our own societies, the divide is getting to be the same. 10% among us 'own' the rest. And we 90% pay the bill for the wealth and security of those 10%.

How big do you think the chances were that a random CEO, Lord, or otherwise 'non-average' person got hit on the tube? Zilch. They take care of themselves.

You think that Bush, Blair & Co did not expect a backlash from the invasion of Iraq? They cry their crocodile tears now, but in fact don't give a damn. After all, they personally are safe and none the poorer after the dust settles. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They won't be happy until they have nukes, you know. And doesn't Red Ken go to work on the tube?

Hasn't buying peace already been tried? We have given massive aid packages to many of the countries, and the people still hate us. As I pointed out above, Al Jazeera yesterday was running 12 different stories on the Palestinians, and not one of them mentioned the $3 billion we'd just given them in aid. Do you see the problem?

[Sir Bert Preast]

Just checked Al Jazeera, and tbf they are running the story today - whinging that the aid is needed quicker, but at least it gets a mention.

I wonder if it's on the Arabic version, though?

[Sir Bert Preast]

Can't see it - the leader seems to be the Sudan story.

[Moshi Moshe Mohammed]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DJ:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed:

Well if not for colonialism, they would still be nomads in the desert shagging goats and stuff. Instead they are forced to live in the XXI century, and well, their societal structures and values are a bit behind.

*hopes the PC crowd is out on the town today* </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I object - if there had been no colonialism (and it continues until this very day, be it in another form) but fair trade, those nomads would have developed, too, just like we did.

Hey, 100 years ago, there were people in incredibly civil countries like the Netherlands where people lived in mud huts and lived of the peat-winning industry. Development goes very quick, once honest opportunity is introduced. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the transition of a tribal ancient value system into an environment of a modern state and modern access to goods and information is breeding ground for all kinds of trouble. You get a lot of corruption, a lot of dictatorships, frustration, and all that other stuff. That was Stage 1. Look in Africa, Latin America, M. East, everyone is going through that stage in the last 100 years. Stage 2 is to improve the corrupt system into one that does provide proper education and opportunities for its people.