DJ Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: They won't be happy until they have nukes, you know. And doesn't Red Ken go to work on the tube? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Just like our governments, you mean? I say, the cheek! Do as I say, not as I do. (Red Ken, yeah, name the one exception, why don't you ) <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Hasn't buying peace already been tried? We have given massive aid packages to many of the countries, and the people still hate us. As I pointed out above, Al Jazeera yesterday was running 12 different stories on the Palestinians, and not one of them mentioned the $3 billion we'd just given them in aid. Do you see the problem? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> $3 billion. Wow. (compare to amounts spent on weaponry by this same government) And how many Pals are going to see any of that money? Only if they happen to be high up in some company, they may get some of it. If they promise to spend most of it on something that we have a profit from. But how can one expect different from our governments, who are in the pockets of our industries? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Colonialism has gone on throughout history, and it's hard to think of a single country that hasn't been under somebody else's boot sometime in the last 500 years. Except mine, of course. :*) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed: A lot of rich people died in WTC. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Yup, and all of a sudden we absolutely needed a couple of wars... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: Colonialism has gone on throughout history, and it's hard to think of a single country that hasn't been under somebody else's boot sometime in the last 500 years. Except mine, of course. :*) </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Now there's an idea Much overdue, too Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DJ: Just like our governments, you mean? I say, the cheek! Do as I say, not as I do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> That's what an adult would say to a child - quite a fair analogy, I'd say. If for example Switzerland decided she needed nukes, I wouldn't lose any sleep - but when it's Iran? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Guy From The Sunny Place Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 You know why people hate you Bert, because double standards make up more than $£3b in aid. It's the fυcking double standards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed: I think the transition of a tribal ancient value system into an environment of a modern state and modern access to goods and information is breeding ground for all kinds of trouble. You get a lot of corruption, a lot of dictatorships, frustration, and all that other stuff. That was Stage 1. Look in Africa, Latin America, M. East, everyone is going through that stage in the last 100 years. Stage 2 is to improve the corrupt system into one that does provide proper education and opportunities for its people. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> The problem with comparison is, that the bad guys nowadays are very much actively kept in power by those amongst ourselves who see some sort of money-making opportunity in it. (And before it was ideology of course. Sovs versus Capitalists). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: Just checked Al Jazeera, and tbf they are running the story today - whinging that the aid is needed quicker, but at least it gets a mention. I wonder if it's on the Arabic version, though? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I don't know, but you're gonna love this, from our "Arab free press" friends: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Who are the real perpetrators of London bombings? 7/8/2005 4:10:00 PM GMT A police officer lifts the huge screen protecting the crime scene at London's Tavistock Square By: Hypatia Clark, Secretary of The Evangelos Society Dear United Kingdom, With the fact that Karl Rove, "Bush's Brain," is just now caught in the treasonous betrayal of a CIA agent to further his master's agenda, that for the first time we have the Bush Gang in a corner, some analysts suggest that this horrific attack on your innocent citizens is a diversionary tactic by the Military/Industrial Complex, the cabal that has backed Bush's rise to power. It is shameful that we let them come to power and that the majority of our citizens are still hypnotized by their lies. I do not disrespect your suffering by saying this. My baby daughter died in the Oklahoma City bombing--their practice-run at 9/11. Dear Brits, your tragedy was not done by a previously unheard of branch of Al Qaeda. If you dismiss all the circumstantial evidence that supports this conclusion, you are being as gullible as half my fellow Americans have been. Grieve, of course, grieve your tragic loss. But don't buy their lies about who is responsible. Your suffering is real and great--as mine was in Oklahoma City, as that in New York was on 9/11. But don't let your suffering cloud your reason as we did here in America. This was not done by a new arm of Al Qaeda as claimed by some media outlets. You are in the process of evacuating your forces in Iraq and sending them back to Afghanistan. Today's heartless manuever by the Complex accomplishes two goals at once--it hides Karl Rove's treason and it masks your government's commitment to Afghanistan yet again. More American soldiers have died in Afghanistan already this year than died there in the whole of last year. This horrific treachery was designed to get the English people behind the Bush’s so-called "war on terror." Don't let them fool you too. People facing terrible tragedy are more suggestible. They worked their evil hypnotic psy-ops magic on us while we were reeling from 9/11. They programmed us over and over again that it was Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda that blew up the World Trade Center. Osama Bin Laden works for the Complex. Recent testimony in a federal court case here revealed a custodian's account of explosions in the basement of Tower One long after the plane had hit and just before it collapsed like a house of cards. Unexploded bombs were found, along with bones of my child, in the ruins of the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City. There is sufficient evidence here to prove the official versions of our tragedies were lies. There is no doubt, sufficient evidence in London to prove that someone more sophisticated than Arab cave-dwellers were involved in your catastrophe. Demand justice. Of course. But be sure that you blame the right villains. Taken altogether, as Dr. Evangelos states in "Unthinking the Unthinkable," the circumstantial evidence verily screams that 9/11 was an inside job. The evidence in your terrible tragedy fits the same pattern already. The Military/Industrial Complex of America will stop at nothing to have their way. They wanted to set you up for a prolonged military action in Afghanistan (while distracting us from Rove) and it never occurred to them to use less bestial means. Do not grieve only. Arise in outrage against the convenient timing of this crime and demand answers. Americans are now, in the majority, too hypnotized to see what is being done over here. Please do not let your grief and anger sway your good sense as we did. This was done to distract attention from the treason of , Karl 'Bush's brain" Rove. This was done to make you forget your charges against Tony Blair. I am the Secretary of an online reading society dedicated to awakening the world to the danger that Bush’s administration poses to freedom everywhere, and I am not attempting to publicize our society on the back of your tragedy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/review/article_full_story.asp?service_ID=9212 FFS The story about "Israel receiving warnings" before the attacks is also getting play, it appears. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DJ: $3 billion. Wow. (compare to amounts spent on weaponry by this same government) And how many Pals are going to see any of that money? Only if they happen to be high up in some company, they may get some of it. If they promise to spend most of it on something that we have a profit from. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> How is that our fault? Unless, of course, you favour the idea that all aid payments should come accompanied by an army in order to ensure the dosh reaches the people and places it was meant for? I like it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The Guy From The Sunny Place: You know why people hate you Bert, because double standards make up more than $£3b in aid. It's the fυcking double standards. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Now that is unfair. I came 12th or something in the last BOTU. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daaaaave Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 yeah, you really overachieved there Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moshi Moshe Mohammed Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DJ: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed: I think the transition of a tribal ancient value system into an environment of a modern state and modern access to goods and information is breeding ground for all kinds of trouble. You get a lot of corruption, a lot of dictatorships, frustration, and all that other stuff. That was Stage 1. Look in Africa, Latin America, M. East, everyone is going through that stage in the last 100 years. Stage 2 is to improve the corrupt system into one that does provide proper education and opportunities for its people. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> The problem with comparison is, that the bad guys nowadays are very much actively kept in power by those amongst ourselves who see some sort of money-making opportunity in it. (And before it was ideology of course. Sovs versus Capitalists). </div></BLOCKQUOTE> DJ, you're gonna go off the deep end into conspiracy theories if you keep on with this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DJ: The problem with comparison is, that the bad guys nowadays are very much actively kept in power by those amongst ourselves who see some sort of money-making opportunity in it. (And before it was ideology of course. Sovs versus Capitalists). </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm not buying this one, either. We stand to make far more money trading with a developing democracy than with a p!ss poor dictatorship. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DJ: Just like our governments, you mean? I say, the cheek! Do as I say, not as I do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> That's what an adult would say to a child - quite a fair analogy, I'd say. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Except these aren't children and we have no real power over them, or it is the power of destroying them and their oppressed people with them. Exactly the sort of thing we should not be doing, or we are none better then them. Civilization isn't for the simple-minded, eh? If for example Switzerland decided she needed nukes, I wouldn't lose any sleep - but when it's Iran? If it's the Swiss, I'd really start worrying tbh In general, NO government should have nukes. It's like the 'right to bear arms'. Accidents can AND WILL happen, not to mention ill-willing individuals who can influence governments, or who are in government (current USA government springs to mind. Rumsfeld, Rice, Bush and other would use nukes if they could get away with it, I'm certain of that.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daaaaave: yeah, you really overachieved there </div></BLOCKQUOTE> It was my finest hour. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DJ: In general, NO government should have nukes. It's like the 'right to bear arms'. Accidents can AND WILL happen, not to mention ill-willing individuals who can influence governments, or who are in government (current USA government springs to mind. Rumsfeld, Rice, Bush and other would use nukes if they could get away with it, I'm certain of that.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE> We DO agree on something \o/ But didn't MacArthur get sacked for suggesting nuking Korea to that peace-loving liberal, Truman? I don't think those you mention would countenance the idea, either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DJ: Except these aren't children and we have no real power over them, or it is the power of destroying them and their oppressed people with them. Exactly the sort of thing we should not be doing, or we are none better then them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> The analogy was one of societies, not human beings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed: DJ, you're gonna go off the deep end into conspiracy theories if you keep on with this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> No, I don't think so. It is simply a shortcoming of the way we let our democracies spin out of hand. Decisions are based on economic gain for the most influential people in a country. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed: The story about "Israel receiving warnings" before the attacks is also getting play, it appears. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> That showed a lot. It was immediately reported everywhere, but the actual story I read had Scotland Yard informing the Israelis, not vice versa. People read it how they wanted it to read, though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: I'm not buying this one, either. We stand to make far more money trading with a developing democracy than with a p!ss poor dictatorship. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> We, as a society, indeed, would profit from trading with a democracy. But those who rule the roost at the moment deal in materials that are used mostly in, against and by dictatorships. And as long as the 10% have their profit... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DJ: Originally posted by Bert Preast:We, as a society, indeed, would profit from trading with a democracy. But those who rule the roost at the moment deal in materials that are used mostly in, against and by dictatorships. And as long as the 10% have their profit... </div></BLOCKQUOTE> As I said earlier, those in power make their money from the markets. They know which way the economy will go, they know how their actions will affect it, and they know sooner than anyone else. They can make money from war or peace, depending on where they invest. If they were really about lining their pockets, we'd spend our whole time being bought to the brink of war then back again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBB Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Bomb squad called to Piccadilly Manchester's main rail station was evacuated after a suitcase left on a train sparked a security alert. Police closed Manchester Piccadilly and closed surrounding roads as army bomb disposal experts were called in from Chester to deal with the incident. Commuters faced further problems as buses and trams had to be diverted away from the area around the station. London Road, Store Street and Fairfield Road were closed after the alert on Saturday afternoon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 P!sser, ain't it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBB Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 very, its going to be like this for a while. Better to be safe than sorry though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr.moustache Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DJ: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed: I think the transition of a tribal ancient value system into an environment of a modern state and modern access to goods and information is breeding ground for all kinds of trouble. You get a lot of corruption, a lot of dictatorships, frustration, and all that other stuff. That was Stage 1. Look in Africa, Latin America, M. East, everyone is going through that stage in the last 100 years. Stage 2 is to improve the corrupt system into one that does provide proper education and opportunities for its people. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> The problem with comparison is, that the bad guys nowadays are very much actively kept in power by those amongst ourselves who see some sort of money-making opportunity in it. (And before it was ideology of course. Sovs versus Capitalists). </div></BLOCKQUOTE> DJ, you're gonna go off the deep end into conspiracy theories if you keep on with this. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> The thing is, knowing that there is a super-rich minority, who are able to pretty much control world events to their own liking, how can anyone place their trust those few? It's very tempting to disregard critism as the beginnings of conspiracy loonacy, but is it really so far-fetched to suggest that those in power will don't mind harming the less rich or less powerful for their own benefit? When you look at the world, you could argue that is exactly what has happened up to this point in time, and will continue too. Whats even more worrying is that this is the system we seem to be encouraging poorer nations to adopt. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 You think of democracy as the only system in which this can happen? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Rogerson Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 It's a tragedy for those left grieving for loved ones, but I said when we went to war in Afghanistan that we were making a particularly uncomfortable bed and would soon be lying in it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 It was Taleban time. There's no denying it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daaaaave Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 it's time. it's time. it's vader time Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason the Yank Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DJ: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: They won't be happy until they have nukes, you know. And doesn't Red Ken go to work on the tube? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Just like our governments, you mean? I say, the cheek! Do as I say, not as I do. (Red Ken, yeah, name the one exception, why don't you ) <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Hasn't buying peace already been tried? We have given massive aid packages to many of the countries, and the people still hate us. As I pointed out above, Al Jazeera yesterday was running 12 different stories on the Palestinians, and not one of them mentioned the $3 billion we'd just given them in aid. Do you see the problem? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> $3 billion. Wow. (compare to amounts spent on weaponry by this same government) And how many Pals are going to see any of that money? Only if they happen to be high up in some company, they may get some of it. If they promise to spend most of it on something that we have a profit from. But how can one expect different from our governments, who are in the pockets of our industries? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Quite frankly, I'm not paying taxes to have the money shipped off to Israel or the Palestinians or Sudan. You want aid to go there? Then tell Oxfam or CARE and such to give me a damn good reason to give them money to send over there. Point being, it would be *my* decision. Not a decision by someone else who thinks they know better than I do how the taxes I pay should be spent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Jason, as a Yank it's fine for you to go isolationism. The UK can't, as there ain't enough food and basics to go around. If there were, though, would the extent of your isolationism allow trade and cultural exchange with the UK or another similar country? Or would the US/ North America remain very much a closed shop? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daaaaave Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 asking Jason basically useless? he's going to go into the woods and hunt deer with a bow and arrow with his best mate the Nuge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 He bloody well has, too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jep Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Daaaaave: it's time. it's time. it's vader time </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Vader would kick the Talibans ass Or squash it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason the Yank Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: Jason, as a Yank it's fine for you to go isolationism. The UK can't, as there ain't enough food and basics to go around. If there were, though, would the extent of your isolationism allow trade and cultural exchange with the UK or another similar country? Or would the US/ North America remain very much a closed shop? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Trade and cultural exchange is fine. Because those are things outside government involvement. Although I'm in favor of more tariffs. I find it absolutely hilarious that our political leaders are in a strop about China possibly buying Unocal oil company and saying it's a national security issue, when they let the steel industry wither away. "Free" trade isn't such a good thing though. The only thing Michigan got from NAFTA was boarded up factories and Toronto's garbage. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Trade is outside government involvement? How can you advocate tariffs and that government stay out of trade at the same time? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Also, who would decide with which countries you can trade? Would you say only those with a similar outlook, of with any of 'em? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 *or with any of 'em. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-uglen Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jason the Yank: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: Jason, as a Yank it's fine for you to go isolationism. The UK can't, as there ain't enough food and basics to go around. If there were, though, would the extent of your isolationism allow trade and cultural exchange with the UK or another similar country? Or would the US/ North America remain very much a closed shop? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Trade and cultural exchange is fine. Because those are things outside government involvement. Although I'm in favor of more tariffs. I find it absolutely hilarious that our political leaders are in a strop about China possibly buying Unocal oil company and saying it's a national security issue, when they let the steel industry wither away. "Free" trade isn't such a good thing though. The only thing Michigan got from NAFTA was boarded up factories and Toronto's garbage. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> It's also your tax dollars that go to the steel industry, for instance, seeing as the 'iron lung' would be government subsidies. You don't believe in the concept of interdependence I take it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K-uglen: You don't believe in the concept of interdependence I take it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> If that's about a country being self sufficient, the US is one of the few who can probably afford to discard the concept. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Spic news reporting that we have a suspect, a Moroccan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Nothing on Sky or BBC yet. Anyone? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-uglen Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K-uglen: You don't believe in the concept of interdependence I take it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> If that's about a country being self sufficient, the US is one of the few who can probably afford to discard the concept. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Even if they dig up all of Alaska, they won't be self-sufficient with oil - especially not with the steep increases in energy consumption in the US. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-uglen Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K-uglen: You don't believe in the concept of interdependence I take it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> If that's about a country being self sufficient, the US is one of the few who can probably afford to discard the concept. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Even if they dig up all of Alaska, they won't be self-sufficient with oil - especially not with the steep increases in energy consumption in the US. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason the Yank Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: Trade is outside government involvement? How can you advocate tariffs and that government stay out of trade at the same time? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Valid point, as I twisted myself into a pretzel there. What I meant to say is that trade is really just the act of commerce between various private entities. Are there cases where government has to step in? Sure, in cases of national security in things like oil and steel. But also in cases of economic security, keeping Americans employed, etc. The purpose of government isn't to develop the economy in other countries, as free traders suggest. The political orientation of a country shouldn't have anything to do with the decision to impose trade restrictions. For example, I support eliminating the embargo on Cuba. Because a) the country's political orientation or even its repression of its populace should be the factor in shutting off trade, and b) after 40 years I think we can conclude the embargo has been utterly ineffective in the stated reasons for keeping it - to force Castro from power. What it boils down to is we should not be trying to remove Castro from power, and even if we should the embargo has not done the job. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBB Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Nothing on sky/ITN news. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason the Yank Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K-uglen: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by K-uglen: You don't believe in the concept of interdependence I take it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> If that's about a country being self sufficient, the US is one of the few who can probably afford to discard the concept. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Even if they dig up all of Alaska, they won't be self-sufficient with oil - especially not with the steep increases in energy consumption in the US. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> There's Alaska, but there's also new interest in oil shale production, coal-bed methane extraction, liquified coal to produce synthetic oil, ethanol is back on the map, etc. One of the criticisms of ethanol was the subsidies that were going to produce it, but even with the subsidies it's still cheaper than normal gasoline now. Plus we've barely scratched the surface of things like wind farms. (there's a good sized one that's started construction not all that far from where I live now) As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, it would take a Manhattan Project to become completely energy independent. But more people are seeing the merit of energy independence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBB Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 A man has been jailed for six months for making "stupid and reckless" hoax bomb calls that resulted in the closure of one of the UK's busiest ports. Ian Tebbutt, 59, of Fathoms Reach, Hayling Island, pleaded guilty at Portsmouth Magistrates' Court to the charge of making a hoax bomb call. Tebbutt made two calls which prompted police to close the harbour, railway station and bus station in Portsmouth. A police spokesman said the massive operation had cost about £80,000. You caused enormous disruption Giovanni Mosca Sentencing the electrical engineer, chairman of the bench, Giovanni Mosca, said: "What you did was stupid, it was an utterly reckless action on a day when so many people were fearful for their lives. "Drink was no excuse. You caused enormous disruption, you caused resources to be diverted elsewhere. These are exceptional circumstances." The first phone call was made by Tebbutt on a mobile phone just two hours after the bus blast in Tavistock Square. He told police that Portsmouth would be bombed before hanging up, the court heard. The police then called him back twice and during these calls he gave his name and address. But then at 1217 BST on Thursday, he called police again and said: "I wish to assassinate the Queen. I wish to destroy London and the next target will be Portsmouth." Following the conviction Assistance Chief Constable Steve Watts said: "This swift, decisive action by police and the Crown Prosecution Service to arrest, charge and sentence someone cynical enough to make a hoax bomb threat following yesterday's incidents in London demonstrates how seriously the authorities take such activities. "This type of behaviour is completely unacceptable and anyone making such phone calls will be robustly dealt with." --------- What an absolute sick bastard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason the Yank Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jason the Yank: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: Trade is outside government involvement? How can you advocate tariffs and that government stay out of trade at the same time? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Valid point, as I twisted myself into a pretzel there. What I meant to say is that trade is really just the act of commerce between various private entities. Are there cases where government has to step in? Sure, in cases of national security in things like oil and steel. But also in cases of economic security, keeping Americans employed, etc. The purpose of government isn't to develop the economy in other countries, as free traders suggest. The political orientation of a country shouldn't have anything to do with the decision to impose trade restrictions. For example, I support eliminating the embargo on Cuba. Because a) the country's political orientation or even its repression of its populace should not be the factor in shutting off trade, and b) after 40 years I think we can conclude the embargo has been utterly ineffective in the stated reasons for keeping it - to force Castro from power. What it boils down to is we should not be trying to remove Castro from power, and even if we should the embargo has not done the job. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Fixed my post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-uglen Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jason the Yank: As I mentioned elsewhere in this thread, it would take a Manhattan Project to become completely energy independent. But more people are seeing the merit of energy independence. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Denmark would classify as energy independent, I would think. We're a net exporter of oil and that will continue for at least another 15 years. Around 15% of the country's energy is supplied by 'alternative' energy sources, primarily wind energy, with the goal being to have the share increase to 25% by 2020 or thereabouts. The shortsighted government has decided not to support research in wave energy, fuel cells etc. which is stupid from whichever angle you look at it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.