Sir Bert Preast Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BoroPhil: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: "A commentary on Iranian state radio, meanwhile, blamed the Israeli intelligence agency, Mossad, for the attacks. It said Mossad was the only group capable of carrying out such operations in London and had often tried to attract attention to its opponents during G8 meetings in the past. Ayatollah Kashani condemned the blasts, but also launched a stinging attack on Western foreign policy, punctuated with cries of "death to America, Britain and Israel". "You talk about al-Qaeda. Have you forgotten who has bred al-Qaeda?" he asked, in remarks addressed to UK Prime Minister Tony Blair. "It's the illegitimate child of America and Israel, but you name it Islam. This savagery is not Islam. It is coming from inside of you and it is now punching you."" Got to love 'em. Can't wait 'til they're a nuclear power. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> It's easy to forget that Al-Qaeda is also the enemy of Iran (and Saddam's Iraq despite what Dubya would have us believe) since they feel they are not 'Islamic' enough. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Then shouldn't someone point that out to the Persians? They don't seem to know, yet. Anyway, until Israel is destroyed and there are no western soldiers in the middle east I think you'll find they'll sort of work together, no? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Does this mean we can bulldoze their houses, then? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthahols_for_Girls Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Odds on the bombers being related to the kid who got a kicking from Lee Bowyer and his mates Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Bacon Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Synthahols_for_Girls: Odds on the bombers being related to the kid who got a kicking from Lee Bowyer and his mates </div></BLOCKQUOTE> And odds on they played GTA before blowing themselves up Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 "Firstly they fear there will be a severe backlash against ordinary folk going about their business (women in Hejab headscarves are commonly targeted in hate attacks)." Caught my eye on the BBC website, here. Is this actually going on much? I had a quick google and found not a thing on any such attacks. What's occuring? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Team Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moshi Moshe Mohammed: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by super_imps: Anyone heard any good conspiracy theories about this yet? Anyone claimed it was the work of the CIA/Mossad/MI5 yet? Or that London's Jewish community was warned to stay away? Or claimed it never happened and the "victims" never even existed in the first place? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Yea as I think was mentioned in this thread (or maybe somewhere else), but Al Jazeera are in full conspiracy mode. Blaming the Zionists, of course. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> link? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 The Iranian looney I quoted above? I know he's not Al Qaeda but he's about the best you're likely to get for now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Synthahols_for_Girls Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: "Firstly they fear there will be a severe backlash against ordinary folk going about their business (women in Hejab headscarves are commonly targeted in hate attacks)." Caught my eye on the BBC website, here. Is this actually going on much? I had a quick google and found not a thing on any such attacks. What's occuring? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> You'd have to be the most ignorant BNP supporting Troglodyte to Blame mainstream islam for this. The majority of muslims from this country I know are clean, respectable and slightly shy people who only want to make the most of the opportunities to better their situation. Unfortunatly as with christianity/judaism etc you have a minority who take the more lurid passages of their holy book as the literal Word. Unlike Christianity however you have a people who have many greavances against the west, both real and imagined and a major problem about freedom and indipendance in the heartland of their faith. Still to blame the many for the actions of the few can only play into the hands of those who commit terrorist acts and will only further marginalise the youth of those comunities Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Team Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: The Iranian looney I quoted above? I know he's not Al Qaeda but he's about the best you're likely to get for now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> no, a link to al jazeera blaming the zionists.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Al Jazeera? I thought the issue was Al Qaeda? They'll release a tape in a year or so, and it'll honk on about the zionists I don't doubt. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Team Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 eh? yeah, al jazeera. as per moshi's post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 oh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 Moshi? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-Team Posted July 12, 2005 Share Posted July 12, 2005 you been drinking? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoroPhil Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BoroPhil: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: "A commentary on Iranian state radio, meanwhile, blamed the Israeli intelligence agency, Mossad, for the attacks. It said Mossad was the only group capable of carrying out such operations in London and had often tried to attract attention to its opponents during G8 meetings in the past. Ayatollah Kashani condemned the blasts, but also launched a stinging attack on Western foreign policy, punctuated with cries of "death to America, Britain and Israel". "You talk about al-Qaeda. Have you forgotten who has bred al-Qaeda?" he asked, in remarks addressed to UK Prime Minister Tony Blair. "It's the illegitimate child of America and Israel, but you name it Islam. This savagery is not Islam. It is coming from inside of you and it is now punching you."" Got to love 'em. Can't wait 'til they're a nuclear power. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> It's easy to forget that Al-Qaeda is also the enemy of Iran (and Saddam's Iraq despite what Dubya would have us believe) since they feel they are not 'Islamic' enough. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Then shouldn't someone point that out to the Persians? They don't seem to know, yet. Anyway, until Israel is destroyed and there are no western soldiers in the middle east I think you'll find they'll sort of work together, no? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> No, I don't think they will. IIRC, there was a David Beckham advert in Tehran untilr recently, I don't think that's something al-Qaeda would have enjoyed. Iran may be a harsh country by our standards, but they do not go anywhere near as far as Al-Qaeda's fanatics would want them to. And, tbh the fact that is Israel is a nuclear power scares me more than the prospect of Iran becoming one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Then you're insane. Israel has been a nuclear power for 30 years without ever even making a threat. Iran is already making threats. I think the Iranian government feels more affinity with Bin Laden than David Beckham, no? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Harper Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 It's always worrying when Israel has nuclear weapon, aside from nations like Iran I would put Israel up there as one of the most disruptive on the planet. And just a comment on the yanks banning their military from entering London for "safety reason" (which has now been lifted). I just have one thing to ask, London is unsafe? How's Baghdad doing? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoroPhil Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: Then you're insane. Israel has been a nuclear power for 30 years without ever even making a threat. Iran is already making threats. I think the Iranian government feels more affinity with Bin Laden than David Beckham, no? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> What threats has Iran made???? The only reason they even feel a need to develop nuclear weapons is because Israel is pointing theirs right at Tehran. And lets not forget Israel's continuing illegal occupation and flaunting of UN resolutions which is one of the main reasons we are in this situation today. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wycombe Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 well Iran is politically unstable so I'd rather they didn't have a big red button that could fall into some randoms hands thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BoroPhil: And lets not forget Israel's continuing illegal occupation and flaunting of UN resolutions which is one of the main reasons we are in this situation today. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Look, I've spent 28 pages trying to avoid this becoming an Israel Palestine argument. If you want one then fine, but start another thread? It is not a valid justification for the London bombings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoroPhil Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BoroPhil: And lets not forget Israel's continuing illegal occupation and flaunting of UN resolutions which is one of the main reasons we are in this situation today. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Look, I've spent 28 pages trying to avoid this becoming an Israel Palestine argument. If you want one then fine, but start another thread? It is not a valid justification for the London bombings. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Fair enough, but I didn't say it was a justification, as nothing can justify blowing up innocent people, but it is one of the causes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoroPhil Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wicom: well Iran is politically unstable so I'd rather they didn't have a big red button that could fall into some randoms hands thanks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I'd rather that than Dubya's hands tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Are you serious? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoroPhil Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 I don't think he'd be unwilling to press that big red button. And that scares me. As does Star Wars and 'bunker busters' or whatever they were called. You can't preach to the world about not having nukes then develop your own!! And again, this probably doesn't belong in this thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wycombe Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 look the USA aren't going to start nuking random countries because they feel like it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoroPhil Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wicom: look the USA aren't going to start nuking random countries because they feel like it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Neither are Iran. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjburrage Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BoroPhil: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wicom: well Iran is politically unstable so I'd rather they didn't have a big red button that could fall into some randoms hands thanks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I'd rather that than Dubya's hands tbh. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I think Dubya having the majority of the American Public not wanting to use Nukes will stop his hand, while as soon as Iran has Nuclear Missiles that can reach Downtown Jerusalem, it will only take one radical general in the field to launch it and we've got ourselves World War 3. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BoroPhil: I don't think he'd be unwilling to press that big red button. And that scares me. As does Star Wars and 'bunker busters' or whatever they were called. You can't preach to the world about not having nukes then develop your own!! And again, this probably doesn't belong in this thread. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Look, the US invented nukes. Nobody can confirm that Israel has nukes, because they had a large enough pool of educated people to call on who were capable of making such weapons without outside help. Iran is paying the Pakistanis and Russians etc. to help them, because as a society they do not possess such a pool of educated people. Which is, of course, an indicator that they're not yet ready for nukes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BoroPhil: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wicom: look the USA aren't going to start nuking random countries because they feel like it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Neither are Iran. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Not until they find themselves undergoing political instability again, anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiley Dan Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Apparently controlled explosion on Cornhill imminent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoroPhil Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Smiley Dan: Apparently controlled explosion on Cornhill imminent. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Where's cornhill? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smiley Dan Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Road running off from the Bank in the City. http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=51.513149,-0.088727&spn=0.008183,0.013372&hl=en Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Philip Rolfe Posted July 13, 2005 Administrators Share Posted July 13, 2005 Oh ffs, since I can't get through on the Piccadilly Line I have to around the outside, via Monument, and now there's problems there? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eli Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 I knew this will all roll on Israel in some stage... Under regular circumstances I would be upset and would say thats the most stupid thing i have heard, its like a beaten woman trying to blame herself, or the neighbours cat, or i dont know what. But this time, since lots of people died in London , and some of you are in a complete state of denial of who were the targets, who were the bombers and what was their NATIONALITY, I will go with it. You are right. Israel is to blame, the American Imperialism as well, those who did this crime have absolutely nothing against Britain and its citizens, and if Israel/Jews/America/Falling oil prices Wouldnt exist, those bombers would be growing flowers in their yard, in the coloures of the flag of Britain, and would pray to Alla 5 times every day with a huge portrait picture of queen Elizabeth infront of their eyes. There, i said it, I hope we all feel better now Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoroPhil Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eli: I knew this will all roll on Israel in some stage... Under regular circumstances I would be upset and would say thats the most stupid thing i have heard, its like a beaten woman trying to blame herself, or the neighbours cat, or i dont know what. But this time, since lots of people died in London , and some of you are in a complete state of denial of who were the targets, who were the bombers and what was their NATIONALITY, I will go with it. You are right. Israel is to blame, the American Imperialism as well, those who did this crime have absolutely nothing against Britain and its citizens, and if Israel/Jews/America/Falling oil prices Wouldnt exist, those bombers would be growing flowers in their yard, in the coloures of the flag of Britain, and would pray to Alla 5 times every day with a huge portrait picture of queen Elizabeth infront of their eyes. There, i said it, I hope we all feel better now </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Of course Isreal isn't to blame for the attacks, but their behaviour towards the Palestinians is one of many factors that has helped breed terrorism. Fact. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eli Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 They were targeting you, not me. Deal with it, and try to prevent the next time. wish you all the luck Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason the Yank Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Why Are They Killing Us? by Patrick J. Buchanan Who carried out the London massacre, we do not know. But, as to why they did it, we are already quarreling. President Bush says that the terrorists are attacking our civilization. At Fort Bragg, N.C., he explained again why we are fighting in Iraq, two years after we overthrew Saddam Hussein. "Iraq is the latest battlefield in this war," he said, in "a global war on terror." "Many terrorists who kill … on the streets of Baghdad are followers of the same murderous ideology that took the lives of citizens in New York, Washington, and Pennsylvania. There is only one course of action against them: to defeat them abroad before they attack us at home." Bush was echoed by Sen. John McCain. Those terrorists in Iraq, McCain told Larry King, "are the same guys who would be in New York if we don't win." We fight the terrorists over there so we do not have to fight them over here. But is this true? Few Americans have given more thought to the motivation of suicide bombers than Robert Pape, author of Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism. His book is drawn from an immense database on every suicide-bomb attack from 1980 to early 2004. Conclusion: The claim that 9/11 and the suicide bombings in Iraq are done to advance some jihad by "Islamofascists" against the West is not only unsubstantiated, it is hollow. "Islamic fundamentalism is not as closely associated with suicide terrorism as many people think," Pape tells The American Conservative in its July 18 issue. Indeed, the world's leader in suicide terror was the Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka. This secular Marxist group "invented the famous suicide vest for their suicide assassination of Rajiv Ghandi in May 1991. The Palestinians got the idea of the vest from the Tamil Tigers." But if the aim of suicide bombers is not to advance Islamism in a war of civilizations, what is its purpose? Pape's conclusion: "uicide-terrorist attacks are not so much driven by religion as by a clear strategic objective: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland. From Lebanon to Sri Lanka to Chechnya to Kashmir to the West Bank, every major suicide terrorist campaign – over 95 percent of all incidents – has had as its central objective to compel a democratic state to withdraw." The 9/11 terrorists were over here because we were over there. They are not trying to convert us. They are killing us to drive us out of their countries. Before the U.S. invasion, says Pape, "Iraq never had a suicide attack in its history. Since our invasion, suicide terrorism has been escalating rapidly, with 20 attacks in 2003, 48 in 2004 and over 50 in just the first five months of 2005. Every year since the U.S. invasion, suicide terrorism has doubled. … Far from making us safer against terrorism, the operation in Iraq has stimulated suicide terrorists and has given suicide terrorism a new lease on life." Pape is saying that President Bush has got it backward: The Iraq war is not eradicating terrorism, it is creating terrorists. The good news? "The history of the last 20 years" shows that once the troops of the occupying democracies "withdraw from the homeland of the terrorists, they often stop – and stop on a dime." Between 1982 and 1986, there were 41 suicide-bomb attacks on U.S., French, and Israeli targets in Lebanon. When U.S. and French troops withdrew and Israel pulled back to a six-mile buffer zone, suicide bombings virtually ceased. When the Israelis left Lebanon, the Lebanese suicide bombers did not follow them to Tel Aviv. "Since suicide terrorism is mainly a response to foreign occupation and not Islamic fundamentalism," says Pape, "the use of heavy military force to transform Muslim societies … is only likely to increase the number of suicide terrorists coming at us." What Pape is saying is that the neocons' "World War IV" – our invading Islamic countries to overthrow regimes and convert them into democracies – is suicidal, like stomping on an anthill so as not to be bitten by ants. It is the presence of U.S. troops in Islamic lands that is the progenitor of suicide terrorism. Bush's cure for terrorism is a cause of the epidemic. The doctor is spreading the disease. The longer we stay in Iraq, the greater the number of suicide attacks we can expect. The sooner we get our troops out, the sooner terrorism over there and over here will end. So Pape says the data proves. This is the precise opposite of what George Bush argues and believes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> GO PAT GO! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoroPhil Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eli: They were targeting you, not me. Deal with it, and try to prevent the next time. wish you all the luck </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Sounds like a typical Israeli reaction. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranjith Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jason the Yank: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Why Are They Killing Us? by Patrick J. Buchanan Who carried out the London massacre, we do not know. But, as to why they did it, we are already quarreling. President Bush says that the terrorists are attacking our civilization. At Fort Bragg, N.C., he explained again why we are fighting in Iraq, two years after we overthrew Saddam Hussein. "Iraq is the latest battlefield in this war," he said, in "a global war on terror." "Many terrorists who kill … on the streets of Baghdad are followers of the same murderous ideology that took the lives of citizens in New York, Washington, and Pennsylvania. There is only one course of action against them: to defeat them abroad before they attack us at home." Bush was echoed by Sen. John McCain. Those terrorists in Iraq, McCain told Larry King, "are the same guys who would be in New York if we don't win." We fight the terrorists over there so we do not have to fight them over here. But is this true? Few Americans have given more thought to the motivation of suicide bombers than Robert Pape, author of Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism. His book is drawn from an immense database on every suicide-bomb attack from 1980 to early 2004. Conclusion: The claim that 9/11 and the suicide bombings in Iraq are done to advance some jihad by "Islamofascists" against the West is not only unsubstantiated, it is hollow. "Islamic fundamentalism is not as closely associated with suicide terrorism as many people think," Pape tells The American Conservative in its July 18 issue. Indeed, the world's leader in suicide terror was the Tamil Tigers of Sri Lanka. This secular Marxist group "invented the famous suicide vest for their suicide assassination of Rajiv Ghandi in May 1991. The Palestinians got the idea of the vest from the Tamil Tigers." But if the aim of suicide bombers is not to advance Islamism in a war of civilizations, what is its purpose? Pape's conclusion: "uicide-terrorist attacks are not so much driven by religion as by a clear strategic objective: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from the territory that the terrorists view as their homeland. From Lebanon to Sri Lanka to Chechnya to Kashmir to the West Bank, every major suicide terrorist campaign – over 95 percent of all incidents – has had as its central objective to compel a democratic state to withdraw." The 9/11 terrorists were over here because we were over there. They are not trying to convert us. They are killing us to drive us out of their countries. Before the U.S. invasion, says Pape, "Iraq never had a suicide attack in its history. Since our invasion, suicide terrorism has been escalating rapidly, with 20 attacks in 2003, 48 in 2004 and over 50 in just the first five months of 2005. Every year since the U.S. invasion, suicide terrorism has doubled. … Far from making us safer against terrorism, the operation in Iraq has stimulated suicide terrorists and has given suicide terrorism a new lease on life." Pape is saying that President Bush has got it backward: The Iraq war is not eradicating terrorism, it is creating terrorists. The good news? "The history of the last 20 years" shows that once the troops of the occupying democracies "withdraw from the homeland of the terrorists, they often stop – and stop on a dime." Between 1982 and 1986, there were 41 suicide-bomb attacks on U.S., French, and Israeli targets in Lebanon. When U.S. and French troops withdrew and Israel pulled back to a six-mile buffer zone, suicide bombings virtually ceased. When the Israelis left Lebanon, the Lebanese suicide bombers did not follow them to Tel Aviv. "Since suicide terrorism is mainly a response to foreign occupation and not Islamic fundamentalism," says Pape, "the use of heavy military force to transform Muslim societies … is only likely to increase the number of suicide terrorists coming at us." What Pape is saying is that the neocons' "World War IV" – our invading Islamic countries to overthrow regimes and convert them into democracies – is suicidal, like stomping on an anthill so as not to be bitten by ants. It is the presence of U.S. troops in Islamic lands that is the progenitor of suicide terrorism. Bush's cure for terrorism is a cause of the epidemic. The doctor is spreading the disease. The longer we stay in Iraq, the greater the number of suicide attacks we can expect. The sooner we get our troops out, the sooner terrorism over there and over here will end. So Pape says the data proves. This is the precise opposite of what George Bush argues and believes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> GO PAT GO! </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Very well put, and almost no spelling mistakes in such a long post??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eli Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BoroPhil: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eli: They were targeting you, not me. Deal with it, and try to prevent the next time. wish you all the luck </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Sounds like a typical Israeli reaction. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> roll your eyes as much as you want, generalize as much as you want, as i said before i advice you to open your mind and see what really can be done to prevent this from happening again. You can blame me and my country for those who died, and once again, as much as it insults me that you are draging the blame on this(and it does bother me) , if it makes you feel better and clinge to your solid belief of how you see things, go for it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoroPhil Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eli: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BoroPhil: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eli: They were targeting you, not me. Deal with it, and try to prevent the next time. wish you all the luck </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Sounds like a typical Israeli reaction. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> roll your eyes as much as you want, generalize as much as you want, as i said before i advice you to open your mind and see what really can be done to prevent this from happening again. You can blame me and my country for those who died, and once again, as much as it insults me that you are draging the blame on this(and it does bother me) , if it makes you feel better and clinge to your solid belief of how you see things, go for it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> If you read my posts properly, you would see that I categorically said I did not blame Israel. The blame for the bombings lies solely with the bombers. However, there are many reasons why there are a lot of angry muslims in the world. One of them is the behaviour of Israel and America's support of Israel. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Borophil - WTF? You've been banging on about blaming Israel since thursday. Eli - We don't all blame you lot. We're not all educated by the BBC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jason the Yank: GO PAT GO! </div></BLOCKQUOTE> It's a load of cods, man. You really believe the jihadis are only doing this 'cos there are non muslims on muslim territory? As a non muslim living on supposedly muslim territory, I will quite happily argue the point. They want an islamic world, an islamic human race. Where do you reckon we begin the negotiations? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
super_imps Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: Borophil - WTF? You've been banging on about blaming Israel since thursday. Eli - We don't all blame you lot. We're not all educated by the BBC. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Here we go with the "BBC is full of mad lefties" thing again . Bonus points for the first person to mention the Guardian media section... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 If you ever learned to read, read this? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason the Yank Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jason the Yank: GO PAT GO! </div></BLOCKQUOTE> It's a load of cods, man. You really believe the jihadis are only doing this 'cos there are non muslims on muslim territory? As a non muslim living on supposedly muslim territory, I will quite happily argue the point. They want an islamic world, an islamic human race. Where do you reckon we begin the negotiations? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I suppose the question becomes how many of jihadis sign up to drive the crusaders from the Middle East, and how many sign up to convert the world to Wahhabism? Not sure we can ever adequately figure that out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 I think the proof is in suicide bombers willing to blow fellow muslim civvies to bits. You think that kind of will would be happy with just a little itty bit of the earth? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Bert Preast Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jason the Yank: and how many sign up to convert the world to Wahhabism? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> And does that bit matter? The ones who don't are depressingly quiet about it, no? FFS, man. You are the great satan. You think for a moment they'll leave you alone if you disentangle yourself from the middle east? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BoroPhil Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bert Preast: Borophil - WTF? You've been banging on about blaming Israel since thursday. Eli - We don't all blame you lot. We're not all educated by the BBC. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Bert: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If you read my posts properly, you would see that I categorically said I did not blame Israel. The blame for the bombings lies solely with the bombers. However, there are many reasons why there are a lot of angry muslims in the world. One of them is the behaviour of Israel and America's support of Israel. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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