A few tactical issues....

[Premier2k]

Hi all,

Let's start by being honest here...I'm not really a football fan, I don't really support a team and whilst I know all the rules, I don't really understand how to look at a game and figure what's going wrong or how fix it.

Now that's out of the way and you can understand my level of knowledge. I have played FM for many many years, right since the early Championship Manager days. I don't claim to be very good but I'm ok and I seem to get better with tactics with every release.

Now, I said I don't really support a team, but I always play lower leagues and like to fight my way up, because of this I seem to enjoy Dagenham & Redbridge so that's who I'm playing as - anyway I digress...

So I'm currently sitting in 3rd place after being prepped at the start of the season for consolidation, I have 8 games left and I'm struggling a bit with a few concepts.

1) I have set my guys to Play Early Crosses. However, they refuse to do so and end up crossing from the byline (is it the byline? the line the goal sits on). Why why why? Cross the damn ball early

2) At the beginning of the season I had played 26 games and conceded 9 goals, granted I hadn't scored many but I was in good shape. For some reason I'm now leaking goals left, right, centre and even from the pie man in the stands. What's gone wrong? I just lost 4-0 against the team propping up the division? I have rested my players on occasion and try to rotate when I need to.

3) When playing at home against a team I tend to start the game off on Standard, with Pass to Feet and Play Early Crosses. What is Pass to feet? I assumed it was as it said, however I now find myself wondering if it's something to do with short passing/direct?

4) If standard isn't working then I switch to either Control (Home) or Counter (Away). if that doesn't work then I look at Defensive (Away) or Attacking (Home). Sometimes, I eventually find the right balance and other times I just get hammered by even more :confused:

Overall, I think I'm missing something fundamental with this game, win or lose I'll keep playing it, but it would be nice to be a little better at understanding it. As I said before, I've tried to watch a game back and see what went wrong, but I don't really know what goes wrong.

There was one occasion I did spot in that one of my central defenders kept getting caught in possession, he didn't do it every game, just this one game, how do I fix something like that? Another time, it was a winger running down and (still not crossing early) getting caught in possession too? I don't really know how to fix these things or how to spot them half the time

Any help/advice/flames appreciated

Premier2k

[Cleon]

Hi all,

Let's start by being honest here...I'm not really a football fan, I don't really support a team and whilst I know all the rules, I don't really understand how to look at a game and figure what's going wrong or how fix it.

Now that's out of the way and you can understand my level of knowledge. I have played FM for many many years, right since the early Championship Manager days. I don't claim to be very good but I'm ok and I seem to get better with tactics with every release.

Now, I said I don't really support a team, but I always play lower leagues and like to fight my way up, because of this I seem to enjoy Dagenham & Redbridge so that's who I'm playing as - anyway I digress...

Hey

Have you had a read of this http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/289528-The-SI-Sports-Centre-All-You-Need-To-Know-About-FM it explains more about how the game actually works rather than just creating a tactic. You might find it useful.

1) I have set my guys to Play Early Crosses. However, they refuse to do so and end up crossing from the byline (is it the byline? the line the goal sits on). Why why why? Cross the damn ball early

You sure they're set to cross from deep? If you want them to do it often also put run with ball at rarely. Also do they have someone to cross to? What is their passing like? If it's set to short they'll be less likely to be able to cross to anyone as they will be restricted in the types of passes/crosses they will attempt.

2) At the beginning of the season I had played 26 games and conceded 9 goals, granted I hadn't scored many but I was in good shape. For some reason I'm now leaking goals left, right, centre and even from the pie man in the stands. What's gone wrong? I just lost 4-0 against the team propping up the division? I have rested my players on occasion and try to rotate when I need to.

Was you over achieveing in the first half of the season?

Have you used the analysis tab in game to view the kinds of goals you've been conceeding and to see if a pattern is emerging? Have you tried to watch the games back at all? I know you say you can't spot things that happen but you can. You can tell if someone is been caught out of position or not where you want them to be on the field etc.

3) When playing at home against a team I tend to start the game off on Standard, with Pass to Feet and Play Early Crosses. What is Pass to feet? I assumed it was as it said, however I now find myself wondering if it's something to do with short passing/direct?

Pass Into Feet – Reduces through ball’s for the players. This is good to use if you feel too many passes are been intercepted by the opposition or you feel too many passes are been misplaced. If you have slow players this is the type of passing you want rather than the pass into space one above.

4) If standard isn't working then I switch to either Control (Home) or Counter (Away). if that doesn't work then I look at Defensive (Away) or Attacking (Home). Sometimes, I eventually find the right balance and other times I just get hammered by even more :confused:

Why don't you ever use counter at home?

What you should do is have a look at how the game is been played and then decide which strategy to use based on what's actually happening. Is standard not working because the opposition are pushing too far forward and not allowing me time on the ball? Then you could try using shouts like;

Winning Possession

We all have games where the opposition is having a lot of possession and you can’t get a hold of the ball. So if you face this scenario then the shouts I would use are;

Push higher up; get stuck in, Hassle opponents.

By pushing higher up you would be reducing the space available to the opposition in which they can pass around in. The get stuck in shout will help be more aggressive and can unsettle the calmness of the opposition players on the ball, in instructs them to tackle harder. And by using hassle opponents shout you’ll be changing to man marking and instructing players to closedown higher up

Or if it's the opposite;

Retaining Possession

Some people enjoy dominating possession as they believe if the opposition don’t have the ball they can’t score. Which is true but it’s also a good tool to use when you want to close a game out and hold onto the current result. Rather than go defensive and invite un-needed pressure I believe this to be a lot less risky and just as effective;

Retain possession, pass to feet and drop deeper.

By using these shouts you’ll be asking the players to drop deeper and close down less. This will help retain the natural shape of the formation you use. Plus you’ll be using shorter passes and playing at a slower tempo while doing more through balls.

The above 2 shouts are what I end up using the most of from the various game’s I’ve got on the go.

Overall, I think I'm missing something fundamental with this game, win or lose I'll keep playing it, but it would be nice to be a little better at understanding it. As I said before, I've tried to watch a game back and see what went wrong, but I don't really know what goes wrong.

There was one occasion I did spot in that one of my central defenders kept getting caught in possession, he didn't do it every game, just this one game, how do I fix something like that? Another time, it was a winger running down and (still not crossing early) getting caught in possession too? I don't really know how to fix these things or how to spot them half the time

Any help/advice/flames appreciated

Read the link I gave you at the beginning and read the discussion thread too. It's a lot of reading but you'll see other users who were in simliar situations to yourself but now they've got a better understanding because of what's in those threads.

[fdawsoniv]

My first question is: if you don't like football, why do you play football manager?

Have a look at Cleon's thread called the SI Sports Centre. It's stickied to the top of the forum. Scroll down a ways and there's a section where she lays out exactly what each shout does.

Have you examined the analysis tab from your 0-4 loss? You can see exactly where all your crosses are coming from. If you click on one, you can see the clip from the game showing just what happened. Why did the winger dribble to the byline? Was there anyone to cross to? Where were the defenders? What are his other instructions?

Also, how much of the match highlights do you watch? How often do you watch a match, or at least portions of a match in full highlights?

Full highlights and the analysis tab will equip you with more information about what your players are doing on the pitch. Hopefully, from that you can come up with some ideas to fix your problems. I might mention, though, that if you don't care that much about football, you probably aren't too interested into going into this kind of detail. Without this detail, it is difficult to maintain consistent success on the tactics side. In that case, your best bet is to use a fairly standard, basic tactic, and try to achieve success by squad building and man management (maintaining your morale). Better tactics simply require time and work.

*Edit*Beaten to the punch

[Premier2k]

Firstly, Wow, that's possibly the best and most helpful response I have ever had on any forum so I thank you for that Cleon. I have started reading that link you sent me and a lot of it makes sense.

I've just read your response regarding Winning Possession and Retaining Possession, I actually use the Retaining Possession alongside Contain when leading in a tight 1-0 game and I find it works well. Some of the trouble I have is getting possession back from the opposition when they are dominating so I'm definitely going to try the winning possession tactic. I think it's my lack of tactical understanding but I never thought about reducing space like that, I always dropped deeper. I can now see that by doing that I'm inviting the pressure still!

Yes, I was overachieving at the start of the season. The board had me down to consolidate, they thought I stood no chance in staying up and so far I'm sitting in 3rd, so I guess I'm doing something right at least

fdawsoniv,

Ok, I didn't say I didn't like football , I said I wasn't a fan. I don't really support a team (other than daggers because of fm), so I can't really call myself a fan . In the 90's I used to support Arsenal, these were the days of Ian Wright, Alan Smith, Nigel Winterburn, Lee Dixon, etc.. etc.. I think what turned me off was how stupid the transfer prices are now, how silly some of the players have become. It's just not the same game. I say that and I sound old "not like that back in my day", I'm only 31,

I recall when Alan Shearer went for the then UK record breaking sum of 15 million to Newcastle.

I also love watching England play and I just enjoy managing a team which is why I enjoy FM I suppose.

I do sometimes look at the analysis pages and try to make sense of it all. As for the match I watch extended highlights in 2D mode as I find it easier to see what positions the players are in at a given time.

I tend to stick to a 442, sometimes switching out a striker for a DMC when playing a harder team away from home.

Really appreciate your comments fdawsoniv, given me something else to think about.

[fdawsoniv]

fdawsoniv,

Ok, I didn't say I didn't like football , I said I wasn't a fan. I don't really support a team (other than daggers because of fm), so I can't really call myself a fan . In the 90's I used to support Arsenal, these were the days of Ian Wright, Alan Smith, Nigel Winterburn, Lee Dixon, etc.. etc.. I think what turned me off was how stupid the transfer prices are now, how silly some of the players have become. It's just not the same game. I say that and I sound old "not like that back in my day", I'm only 31,

I recall when Alan Shearer went for the then UK record breaking sum of 15 million to Newcastle.

I also love watching England play and I just enjoy managing a team which is why I enjoy FM I suppose.

I do sometimes look at the analysis pages and try to make sense of it all. As for the match I watch extended highlights in 2D mode as I find it easier to see what positions the players are in at a given time.

I tend to stick to a 442, sometimes switching out a striker for a DMC when playing a harder team away from home.

Really appreciate your comments fdawsoniv, given me something else to think about.

Ah, I see-my error.

There's a bit of a personal debate you have to settle regarding tactics. To achieve the maximum results, you need to see more detail, but that takes a lot of time. Time you might not be able/willing to dedicate to a computer game. Then again, it also helps unlock the immersion potential of the game, making it more enjoyable. You'll have to find that balance for yourself, but even a little more detail will help. I know Cleon says she usually only watches full highlights for the first fifteen minutes, then uses shouts from there. So you don't need to watch all 90 minutes of every game to improve your success.

[Premier2k]

Hi all again,

As a small update. I managed to claw my way back using Cleon's excellent posts and managed to fniished 3rd to gain automatic promotion from League 2. I have games into the start of season 2 in league 1 and so far have lost 2 and drawn 1. Bought some new players in but they just aren't playing well at the moment. Currently lying in 24th

[Cleon]

Hi all again,

As a small update. I managed to claw my way back using Cleon's excellent posts and managed to fniished 3rd to gain automatic promotion from League 2. I have games into the start of season 2 in league 1 and so far have lost 2 and drawn 1. Bought some new players in but they just aren't playing well at the moment. Currently lying in 24th

During pre season did you put Match Prep workload very high and focus on teamwork? It helps the team blend and learn the tactics faster.

[Premier2k]

I put the workload up to very high but didn't put team work on. I might spend a few weeks on Team Blend, rather than the defensive positioning I have set at the moment. My goal set by the board is to avoid relegation, my personal goal is mid table.

[jimbobBRFC]

I put the workload up to very high but didn't put team work on. I might spend a few weeks on Team Blend, rather than the defensive positioning I have set at the moment. My goal set by the board is to avoid relegation, my personal goal is mid table.

Setting the bar high that is. Predicted mid to bottom of league 2 and now mid table league 1. Optimism in its highest form

[Premier2k]

I was predicted to consolidate for League 2 and finished 2nd

If i work hard I think I could achieve mid table. Nothing wrong with aiming high!

[jimbobBRFC]

So still an overacheiving season then .

I never said anything wrong with it, just a high aim.

[Premier2k]

Cleon,

I'm still reading your thread you sent me the link to and finding it very interesting. I have a question though about 1 section of it...

In the 4th round of the FA Cup against Aston Villa, you suggest that you knew the formation they were going to play before you played the game, and that you set your DMC to mark their AMC as he was best placed to do that without being pulled out of position.

How did you know prior to the game that they would play like that? I've never found a way to do that before choosing my team and formation and it being on one of the next screens (Just before team talks IIRC)

Or was it that you picked your formation and it was just luck that they played theirs in a way you could counter? Most of the teams I come up against tend to play a 442 so still trying to work out how to best take advantage of that.

[Cleon]

I'm still reading your thread you sent me the link to and finding it very interesting. I have a question though about 1 section of it...

In the 4th round of the FA Cup against Aston Villa, you suggest that you knew the formation they were going to play before you played the game, and that you set your DMC to mark their AMC as he was best placed to do that without being pulled out of position.

How did you know prior to the game that they would play like that? I've never found a way to do that before choosing my team and formation and it being on one of the next screens (Just before team talks IIRC)

Yups that's the screen I altered on the pre match ones after selecting my line up. This is where I do most of my tweaking after I know how and who the opposition are playing and their style.

As for beating 442 cut the supply off from the wingers and already you'll be cutting off the supply for their strikers.

[TwinsFan86]

Cleon,

I'm still reading your thread you sent me the link to and finding it very interesting. I have a question though about 1 section of it...

In the 4th round of the FA Cup against Aston Villa, you suggest that you knew the formation they were going to play before you played the game, and that you set your DMC to mark their AMC as he was best placed to do that without being pulled out of position.

How did you know prior to the game that they would play like that? I've never found a way to do that before choosing my team and formation and it being on one of the next screens (Just before team talks IIRC)

Or was it that you picked your formation and it was just luck that they played theirs in a way you could counter? Most of the teams I come up against tend to play a 442 so still trying to work out how to best take advantage of that.

During the series of pre-match screens (opposition instructions, team talk, etc) if you go to player instructions, you can set a player to specific man mark another position. I didn't know where it was until recently either. Makes a world of difference to set your wingers to specific man mark the opposition fullbacks, in some games it can be a huge game changer.

[fdawsoniv]

I might tack on to that that the specific man marking seems to unlock the AMR/AML position. One complaint about the ability of the ME to handle tactics that use those positions (like the 4-2-3-1 you see so much now) was that they didn't do enough defensively (or maybe not anything), leaving the flanks open to exposure, punishing advancing fullbacks. Setting them to specific marking can help encourage their defense, keep the opponent on their back foot on the wings, and still attack like you want.

Learning about the different kinds of marking and how to implement those systems into the game is a specific goal of mine. I want to make the opponent adjust to me as much as possible, but I also recognize I will need to be able to implement things to counter the threats they pose to me, while maintaining my offensive vision.

[Premier2k]

Hey all!

After discovering I could change my match tactics after submitting the squad I've learnt a lot more in the way of tactics. I managed to survive my foray into League 1 football. I played some very bad football at times and there is still a long way to go but I think (hope) I'm getting better.

jimbobBRFC - I finished 11th Midtable

Couple of things though....

Also, for the final game of the season I decided to play more attacking, I had been playing defensive for most of the season, switching up to counter when the opposition were very attacking which seemed to work in some cases and not so well in others. In the final game I thrashed the opposition 4-0. Perhaps I've been too defensive?

I have discovered playing a few teams that I just can't find the right tactic to use, no matter what do the opposition are all over me. I've switched from defensive to counter, still nothing, switch to standard, control even attacking and overload at times. I used these in combination with Cleon's excellent winning possession shout combination but still I just get played over the park?? This happened in probably 10% of my games. Could it be that my formation for that game was wrong and I should have gone more defensive? Maybe more attacking?

Cleon - You were correct when you said I can identify issues, towards the end of the season I noticed my players just kept booting the ball up field and giving away possession, despite being on short passing. I decided to use the Play out of Defence shout and that worked a treat. My question is, is there a point where I would not want to use that shout? I can't think of a reason as to why I wouldn't so I'm thinking about making that shout a permanent fixture in my tactics from the off.

I think that was all my questions, I'm sure I'll click Submit Reply and think of something

Well, just about to start my 3rd season (my second in League 1). I'm tempted to start a career story in the correct forum. I'd have to back date it but this is probably my most enjoyable save to date.

[Premier2k]

Just remembered the other question!

Occasionally I come up against a 4-5-2 with 5 midfielders all lined up. How do I play against something like this? They dominate the midfield quite well and I can never work out how to break them down? Ideally I'd like to use a 442 formation.

[jimbobBRFC]

Hey all!

After discovering I could change my match tactics after submitting the squad I've learnt a lot more in the way of tactics. I managed to survive my foray into League 1 football. I played some very bad football at times and there is still a long way to go but I think (hope) I'm getting better.

jimbobBRFC - I finished 11th Midtable

Couple of things though....

Also, for the final game of the season I decided to play more attacking, I had been playing defensive for most of the season, switching up to counter when the opposition were very attacking which seemed to work in some cases and not so well in others. In the final game I thrashed the opposition 4-0. Perhaps I've been too defensive?

I have discovered playing a few teams that I just can't find the right tactic to use, no matter what do the opposition are all over me. I've switched from defensive to counter, still nothing, switch to standard, control even attacking and overload at times. I used these in combination with Cleon's excellent winning possession shout combination but still I just get played over the park?? This happened in probably 10% of my games. Could it be that my formation for that game was wrong and I should have gone more defensive? Maybe more attacking?

Yeah maybe more attacking could of been better. Although first season after promotion a cautious aproach is probably better so you can gauge how good your team is compared to others in the league.

The attacking approach probably worked because teams consider you to be a weaker team so will attack you. They expect you to sit back and defend, and play on the counter. You playing attacking has probably caught them short at the back hence why you battered them.

I know what you mean about getting played, the last few games ive played ive been dominated on possesion and still won. I use play narrower, hassle opponents, push higher up (cautious about using this depending on how quick they are looking upfront). Usually helps to win the ball back. But as you said some games you just get dominated and there seems nothign you can do about it. I usualy find tweaking things doesnt help, I make small changes and try to weather to storm. Use more counter attacking shouts

[jimbobBRFC]

Yeah maybe more attacking could of been better. Although first season after promotion a cautious aproach is probably better so you can gauge how good your team is compared to others in the league.

The attacking approach probably worked because teams consider you to be a weaker team so will attack you. They expect you to sit back and defend, and play on the counter. You playing attacking has probably caught them short at the back hence why you battered them.

I know what you mean about getting played, the last few games ive played ive been dominated on possesion and still won. I use play narrower, hassle opponents, push higher up (cautious about using this depending on how quick they are looking upfront). Usually helps to win the ball back. But as you said some games you just get dominated and there seems nothign you can do about it. I usualy find tweaking things doesnt help, I make small changes and try to weather to storm. Use more counter attacking shouts

EDIT: Just seen your other question. I usually try to match them in midfield, so play 3 MC's, that stops them passing it around as well and always having a free man. Then exploit the flanks and make my WB's quite attacking. Try to overlap and really catch em on the flanks

[Premier2k]

Thanks jimbobBRFC, I figured just matching the numbers in midfield would probably be the best bet. Just didn't want to have to sacrifice my formation to play like that but hey.

Yes, I was expected to immediately drop back down so figured defensive wouldn't do me much harm for the majority of the season. This year I want to shake things up a bit and try to score a few more goals.

My board want me to mid-table finish again. I want 5th-11th finish, which I believe with my quality of players is more than possible

Thanks for your response!

[jimbobBRFC]

Thanks jimbobBRFC, I figured just matching the numbers in midfield would probably be the best bet. Just didn't want to have to sacrifice my formation to play like that but hey.

Yes, I was expected to immediately drop back down so figured defensive wouldn't do me much harm for the majority of the season. This year I want to shake things up a bit and try to score a few more goals.

My board want me to mid-table finish again. I want 5th-11th finish, which I believe with my quality of players is more than possible

Thanks for your response!

If you want to score more goals Id go for something like a 4-3-1-2 (against the 4-5-1 im talking about). Have WB's pretty attacking but set to tight mark the ML/R so that they still rack back. have the AMC as a playmaker so that people will try to get the ball to him inbetween the lines. He SHOULD have a bit of space on the ball so this will give him time to pull something out the bag. Depending on the strikers id either go DLF/Poacher combo or Target Man/Poacher. That totally depends on the strikers you have at the club. In midfield id have one DLP Defend in the MC slot, lower hs mentality so that he sits in the gap whilst everyone else attacks around him. Then id have a BWM and AP MCL/R, one destoryer one playmaker who can push up and help the forwards/AMC. If you have the players two B2B would be perfect but I have struggled to find a good B2B on this years FM.

Hope that helps a little more