cressers Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 as the title says..... i feel it is a huge shame you cant individually change the tempo of players individually Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSCCG Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 I don't think it's a huge shame, but it is confusing because there is a PPM called "dictates tempo" and if a player dictates tempo, does this mean the team always has to play with the same tempo whenever he is playing? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomit Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Individual tempo? That's absurd. Tempo is team based. Do you want a individual defensive line as well? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
furiousuk Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Although I agree with Thomit I'd like to hear why the OP thinks individual tempo would be beneficial? I'm open to being convinced by the right argument Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cressers Posted May 11, 2012 Author Share Posted May 11, 2012 thomit how dictorial of you. One example i can think of that is relative to this era of football and would make my point understandable i gues would be; Park-Ji-Sungs role in a man utd team consisting of slow tempo build up, where as Park would be playing at a much higher tempo then the rest of the team. Do you need me to explain why this is happening or why it benefits ? not sure if that is absurd but you only have to watch that one easy, pick out of a hat example to understand where i am coming from, and to clearly see its not 'absurd' A great many things have been pronounced untrue and absurd, and even impossible, by the highest authorities in the age in which they lived, which have afterwards, and, indeed, within a very short period, been found to be both possible and true. A prophet or an achiever must never mind an occasional absurdity, it is an occupational risk. must i really keep shooting off cliches to show your bereftness ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cressers Posted May 11, 2012 Author Share Posted May 11, 2012 Defensive line is diffrent as it is worknig of a diffrent type of coordinate, like the diffrence between time and space i guess. Defensive line is too much of a problem because of the other factors that go into it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cressers Posted May 11, 2012 Author Share Posted May 11, 2012 ............................................. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
furiousuk Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 I like to think outside of the box too and I certainly have no problems discussing some philosophical aspects of sport but I still don't see how individual tempo settings outweigh the cohesive benefit you get with a more consistent tempo? I'm not an expert on real-life football but from what I know it is Parks' work rate which is often higher than those players around him (this isn't due to laziness of other players, just part of the role they all play). I wouldn't necessarily say his tempo is deliberately quicker. I'm sure he plays more quick one-twos than say, Carrick or Scholes, but this is due to the role he plays in the team. I would also assume that Hernandez or Welbeck play more quick one-twos than Rooney or Berbatov but I'd argue that, again, this is because its a requirement of their role. In my examples Carrick, Scholes & Rooney often provide more of a creative force than Chica, Welbeck or Park so it makes sense that the creators play at a slightly lower pace than those others around them. It isn't really a tempo choice in my view, just a requirement of being able to fulfill the role they were tasked with. Playing quicker would (probably) simply make them less effective creators. I'm sure they play quicker at times (as Rooney is more advanced it would be absolutely necessary at times). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cressers Posted May 11, 2012 Author Share Posted May 11, 2012 "this isn't due to laziness of other players, just part of the role they all play" exactly. and how do you recreate this 'role'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cressers Posted May 11, 2012 Author Share Posted May 11, 2012 Riquelme being another example of where he was obvioulsy told to play at a slower tempo than the rest of the team or visa versa. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cressers Posted May 11, 2012 Author Share Posted May 11, 2012 your whole thing is about playing quicker or slower, which is essentaily, what ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomit Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 I'm afraid I don't understand your definition of tempo. To me, tempo is how fast (or slow) a team moves the ball between players, and also can be how fast players moves into positions to be able to receive a pass. There's nothing contradictory between high tempo/slow build-up. I'm not sure I understand your Park example either. From what I have seen from ManU's matches, he doesn't strike me as someone who deviates much from the rest of the team when it comes to tempo. Individually there is differences between players - of course there is. Some tend to dwell a little more on the ball than others, some tend to want to get rid of the ball as soon as possible. "Dwells on ball" is a ppm implemented into FM. "Dictates tempo" is someone who will deviate from team instructions, if they see it as beneficial for the team right there and then on the pitch. And therefore dictates the tempo for the rest of the team right there and then, in that moment. Midfield "general" or playmaker types, mostly. But on the whole, I am quite sure that a manager would want all his players to be "in line" with his general tempo instructions. I really can't see any benefit to always have one player play fast passes/moves when the rest of the team isn't, because the rest of the team would not move fast enough into positions for that "fast" player to play his passes to. That's why I called it absurd. I can't really see Sir Alex tell the team to play slow, but tell Park to play fast. I can, if I stretch my imagination, see a "don't dwell on ball" instruction given to individual players. Either because they are particularly week at holding on to the ball technically, or are very weak physically - but don't really see a need for it in top tier football. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
qqq Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Tempo is just a mild team instruction that your team all follow to a certain degree whilst in possession and looking for ways to move up field, it is not adhered to if they have a counter attack possibility nor is it adhered to if they are countered by the opposition. A striker will not just stroll after a through ball just because you have a slow tempo any more than your defender will slowly meander back after the other team plays a ball over the defensive line. It is just a general rule to play at a speed you want them to play until an opportunity presents itself. The game developers have programed "football" into this game and the players will react correctly to a situation regardless of an over all team tempo setting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomit Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 That's very true, qqq. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cressers Posted May 11, 2012 Author Share Posted May 11, 2012 good point qqq , noone really asked for that but good description of something..... Are you saying that tempo is not involved in anyway with defending ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
qqq Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 That's very true, qqq. And your a poet, but just don't know it... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cressers Posted May 11, 2012 Author Share Posted May 11, 2012 your team all follow to a certain degree whilst in possession and looking for ways to move up field why do they all have to have the same way of 'looking for ways to move up the field' ???? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomit Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 And your a poet, but just don't know it... No, I knew it. Tempo is not applicable if you don't have posession of the ball, cressers. It's the team with the ball who dictates tempo - in defense, you just react to the other team. "Tempo" in defending, is defined by your defending team's closing down instructions, to a degree, I suppose. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
qqq Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 @ Thomit LOL... @Cressers, No, they all play the role I ask them, defenders play safe, midfielders will look for options and the front 3 will try to score or maybe look to pass back and start again, it is individual instructions that allows the overall tempo philosophy to be altered. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cressers Posted May 11, 2012 Author Share Posted May 11, 2012 would also put it to you how on earth you would develop a slow build up with fast tempo tactic? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cressers Posted May 11, 2012 Author Share Posted May 11, 2012 jesus you like to dance dont you.... i asked you a question which is pulled from your text your team all follow to a certain degree whilst in possession and looking for ways to move up field why do they all have to have the same way of 'looking for ways to move up the field' ???? what if i dont want all 3 midfielder to look for options what if i want a deep 2 and i want one to hassle and hound and run eveywhere...i cant i have tried and i have found it is the tempo which is failing me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
qqq Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Who is jesus? and no, I don't much like dancing. Your tone is now tiring, I tried to engage in a conversation with you and thomit did as well, you need to calm down. I am done... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomit Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 What you want has little to do with tempo, cressers. If you want a midfielder to run around hunting for the ball all the time (when not in position of the ball), you simply give him instructions to close down allways - but then you need a player with high stats in workrate and stamina to pull it off. Determination, bravery and aggression helps too, I would imagine. If you tell a player to do that, but the player don't have the required stats for it, you will be disappointed with the results. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luketa Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 This is the more accurate description of what tempo is. As far as I am concerned, tempo is perfectly reflected in FM. Moreover, there are several ppm that highlights some individual preferrences in certain players to a certain tempo: a player who likes to "dwells on ball" is clearly a player unsuitable to play in a quick tempo playing side. The same applies with "Stops play". Dictates tempo, however, is different. A player with the correct attributes and this ppm, will have the ability to decide which is the best tempo and when succesfully. Someone named the example of Riquelme. Riquelme indeed had a lot of trouble to adapt himself to sides playing a fast tempo-direct passing style, as he loves to stop play, dwells on ball and play a more methodical and possession orientated brand of football. So here is an example of why tempo is a GENERAL pattern of play throughout the side. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cressers Posted May 11, 2012 Author Share Posted May 11, 2012 chau qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq, and jesus is a biblical character most known to be depicted as gods son in the new testemant of the bible. also is a coin face for modern american christianity. i am of course taking this out of context and using as an expression of frustration towards your, again, metaphorical dancing( do i need to explain that for you aswell). these things do not work aswell when you have to explain them. whch is why there isnt many phrases of expression and humour out there for ******* and children. but that is of topic really isnt it yeah i have tried that, its not like i havnt experimented on this. in terms of getting a playmaker to play at a lower tempo that is easy but doing the opposite will not just work via the way you said because i have tried and he will not operate the way i really want yet once the level of tempo is increased for the team , that person start to operate much more like i want him to ..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomit Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 This is the more accurate description of what tempo is.. What is? Who's description? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
furiousuk Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 whch is why there isnt many phrases of expression and humour out there for ******* and children. but that is of topic really isnt it Dude, that's pretty uncool. And sarcasm is just as stupid in the spoken word as it is in the written. Your discussion point on tempo is actually valid and probably would of made a decent thread but you've ruined any chance of discussion by insulting other members of the forum. It's not really how we like to get things done around here, everyone else has been civil to you, disagreeing with someone is NOT the same as insulting them. All anyone can ask is that you extend the same courtesy as has been shown to you. Then you'll get listened to. Then you'll get the discussion you're after. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cressers Posted May 11, 2012 Author Share Posted May 11, 2012 i havn't insulted anyone, i just answered a question. And sarcasm is just as stupid in the spoken word as it is in the written. - no, your wrong Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cressers Posted May 11, 2012 Author Share Posted May 11, 2012 actually interested to hear about ...high tempo yet slow build up Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomit Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 And sarcasm is just as stupid in the spoken word as it is in the written. If it's used badly. Sarcasm can be used well, however. I hope you didn't mean that all sarcasm is bad, furious? cressers, your general tone is indeed a little insulting. Your "I can't believe I really have to explain this to you" attitude is uncalled for, and quite a bit adolescent. I am done here too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cressers Posted May 11, 2012 Author Share Posted May 11, 2012 ok fair enough. think your missing the compliment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cressers Posted May 11, 2012 Author Share Posted May 11, 2012 high tempo and slow build up anyone ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomit Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Barcelona does it all the time. So does most English teams, from time to time, allthough English teams tend to go more direct passing, and faster towards the opponent goal. Teams like Barcelona can do that too, if they want, but mostly it's fast movement of ball between their players, and meticulous build-up towards a goal-scoring opportunity. ManU sometimes do that too. Arsenal is perhaps the most "continental" of the English teams, but even they play mostly quick passing, high tempo football, but often with slow build-up ... and sometimes very quick. Are you confusing tempo with short/direct/long passing, cressers? Edit: Or confuse tempo with how fast or slow it takes to get into the opponents last third of the pitch? That is not to do with tempo, in my opinion. That has more to do with how direct the passing is. Short passing= Ball takes a more meticulous and roundabout route towards the opponents goal. Direct passing = Ball takes a more direct route towards the opponents goal. "Typical English" way of playing footbal is thus high(ish) tempo/direct passing. ManU more often than not fall into this stereotype pefectly, but they have the ability to change between this and a more meticulous style of play, or even counter-attacking, better than most. Barcelona's most typical way is high(ish) tempo/short passing, but they are also very good at changing it around in a split second, and play very direct if opportunity arise. Arsenal is particularly clever in changing modes, but they are not very much different than either ManU or Barcelona. In fact, the most obvious difference between ManU and Arsenal, is that ManU somtimes will try a long shot or two ... Arsenal do not. Or very rarely. They want to play or pass the ball into the net. Very much like Barcelona. These 3 teams are not so different from each other as some like to think - it's the base modum operandi that differs. And in fact, most of the top teams in modern football follow in the same mould - the difference being how good they do it, and in particular, how good they are at changing from one mode to another. Getting further and further off topic here, I feel, so I stop now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luketa Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 What is? Who's description? Sorry, posted it wrong, I meant your description: "I'm afraid I don't understand your definition of tempo. To me, tempo is how fast (or slow) a team moves the ball between players, and also can be how fast players moves into positions to be able to receive a pass. There's nothing contradictory between high tempo/slow build-up. I'm not sure I understand your Park example either. From what I have seen from ManU's matches, he doesn't strike me as someone who deviates much from the rest of the team when it comes to tempo. Individually there is differences between players - of course there is. Some tend to dwell a little more on the ball than others, some tend to want to get rid of the ball as soon as possible. "Dwells on ball" is a ppm implemented into FM. "Dictates tempo" is someone who will deviate from team instructions, if they see it as beneficial for the team right there and then on the pitch. And therefore dictates the tempo for the rest of the team right there and then, in that moment. Midfield "general" or playmaker types, mostly. But on the whole, I am quite sure that a manager would want all his players to be "in line" with his general tempo instructions. I really can't see any benefit to always have one player play fast passes/moves when the rest of the team isn't, because the rest of the team would not move fast enough into positions for that "fast" player to play his passes to. That's why I called it absurd. I can't really see Sir Alex tell the team to play slow, but tell Park to play fast. I can, if I stretch my imagination, see a "don't dwell on ball" instruction given to individual players. Either because they are particularly week at holding on to the ball technically, or are very weak physically - but don't really see a need for it in top tier football. " Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falahk Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 it should already be possible to do in the current ME, atleast in theory anyway, by playing at a slightly higher tempo then you first intended and then put HUB and a slight amount of RWB on the players you wish to do a slower build up and hang on to the ball a bit longer then the rest of the team Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomit Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Sorry, posted it wrong, I meant your description: Oh, I see. Ok, cool, glad you agree Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
furiousuk Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 If it's used badly. Sarcasm can be used well, however. I hope you didn't mean that all sarcasm is bad, furious?. Well, yeah, technically all sarcasm is bad but I tend to be pretty sarcastic a lot of the time, although that doesn't mean it isn't stupid Sarcasm is "a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter jibe or taunt" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cressers Posted May 11, 2012 Author Share Posted May 11, 2012 Thomit, i understand the teams that do it in real-lfie my question was more towards ingame, how to set a high slider tempo, yet keep a slow build up Falahk that is a good input, what is HUB and RWB ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cressers Posted May 11, 2012 Author Share Posted May 11, 2012 i have found there to be quite a diffrent amount of interpertations on what TEMPO is aswell. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cressers Posted May 11, 2012 Author Share Posted May 11, 2012 no sarcasm isnt stupid furious, from the depths of irony to the wit of vitriol. try telling Gore Vidal that sarcasm is stupid and im sure you will be redefined on the matter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falahk Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Falahk that is a good input, what is HUB and RWB ? hold up ball, and run with ball individual player instructions both of them Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomit Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 I have found how to do this with my team, cressers. High(ish) tempo with mostly meticulous, short passing type of a build up. With the Tactic Creator 4-3-3 or 4-5-1 (DMC, 2 MC, AMR,AML, Striker) Strategy: Control (this never changes, I don't need to) Passing style: Shorter Creative Freedom: Default (the other settings allready give the players that need it enough creative freedom, so I don't go "more expressive" here. Closing down: Press more. Tackling: More cautious (will make central defenders and defensive midfielder not dive into tackles, to stay on their feet, win the ball and quickly pass it on) Marking: Zonal Crossing: Drill Roaming: More Defensive line: The default result from the TC Width: The default result from the TC Tempo: A few notches up from the TC, to the last notch of normal or the 1.st notch of high. Time wasting: A couple of notches down from the TC Focus passing: Default TC Counter Attack: Default TC Play Offside: Default TC Playmaker: MCR Roles/duties: GK/defend, DR/DL Full Back/Support, DCR Central defender/Cover, DCL Ball-playing defender/stopper, DMC Defending midfielder/defending, MCR Deep-lying playmaker/support, MCL Central Midfielder/attack, AMR/AML Inside forward/attack, STC Complete forward/Support (but I have given this player adjustments so he's more like a trequartista). The AML and AMR are set to swap positions. In addition, I have put long shots to rarely on all players (you could also use the "work ball into box" shout), and some adjustment to through-balls, run-with-ball and forward runs on some of the players. Everything else is the default that the TC comes up with. I could go on into more details, but this is the base tactic for a highly technical team, with quite a few world class players in it. This team will often deviate from my instructions, because I have very creative players with good passing and vision in midfield, that can make up their own mind. Coupled with the 2 wide men up front, that both have very good off the ball, anticipation and speed, and a main striker in a role that is a cross between a trequartista and a complete forward (and has the stats to pull it off - this is my most gifted player, the "superman" of the team... think Messi, Agüero, van Persie), I get a team that will mostly play short passing, meticulous build-up with a fairly high tempo of passing, but that also will play direct, or counter-attack, if the opportunity arise. You probably won't be able to achieve this with a "lesser" team though. To keep hold of a lead (I usually do this when I am 2 goals up), I simply take away forward runs on the fullbacks and the MCL, and lower the tempo and defensive line a couple of notches. That's usually all I ever have to do during a match. To go "attacking" when I need a goal, I give forward runs often to the full backs, and lower the time waste, maybe give tempo a little extra nudge. That's it. The most key (keymost?) players in this team are the DCL, the MCR and the Striker - these need to be absolutely top notch. The rest of the players can be Top Notch minus This will - with the right players - make the team do what I want, and that is to emulate the best teams in the world, and that plays the most exciting football (Mainly Barcelona/Arsenal, to my taste). And it works pretty well, for me, given that the ME isn't flawless. I have won the Premier League 3 times in a row, been in 3 Champions League finals and won 2, in seven seasons. The first couple of seasons was spent building my team and getting the right players in, and sell those who weren't right. I am sure you will find plenty of quite similar tactics in this forum, mine isn't anything very unique. And I have taken plenty of tips and suggestions from others myself. I used to change things with shouts before, but now I have made 3 tactics - Normal, Cautious and Attacking, they are all the same except for tempo, defensive line and forward runs. This way I will have my players familiar with the differences in tempo and defensive line because they have trained them at the start of the season - if you instead use your standard tactic and change the tempo and DL with shouts, you will effectively ask the players to play a tempo and defensive line that they are not fully familiar with. There, done. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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