Training attributes question

[Seagullfan]

Whilst I appreciate that there are a number of things that contribute to attribute growth why is there major differences to growth of attributes in the same training category.

If all of the attributes in a training category are receiving the same amount of training wouldn't it be reasonable to see some correlation in their growth. I have had a good visual study of this and in some cases an attribute may grow by say 3 points in a 9 month period whereas an attribute in the same category doesn't move.

I have tried to see if there are any obvious non training related causes for this but can't seem to see any patterns.

For me this is quite crucial to understand to enable me to develop specific attribute targeted training schedules

[Cleon]

All attributes in the same catergory have the same chance of change as the rest of them.

I don't have the problem you say you do, as you can see in these threads http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/289528-The-SI-Sports-Centre-All-You-Need-To-Know-About-FM and http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/304750-Youth-Development-The-Guide

I'd like to see the schedules and players you used and see the actual outcome of your visual study though as what you are saying is not what the majority of people see who create schedules and understand the training side of the game.

Some attributes are influenced by in game events though. Say for example you have a young striker and he only normally scores 1 goal a game. If in a game he managed to score a hattrick then he could potentially lead to a change in either his finishing, composure or anticipation depending on how he scored his 3 goals. This doesn't happen every time and even though I'd say its rare, it still happens frequently if you develop youth and give them chances in games. At times you'll see what I mention above or you might notice someone got more tackles than usual and see his defensive attributes rise instantly.

But from training their is correlation with attribute growth for the catergories.

[Seagullfan]

I am currently using the SFraser schedules on FM10 and know that this theory has since been debunked and as I don't have a great deal of time on FM I wanted to create a simple method of creating and fine tuning training shedules. The idea being to maybe get some sort of spreadsheet matrix together, based on some sound theories, so that attributes could be punched in to give a reasonable schedule as the output.

As yet my visual study has just been a look through all my players training attribute graphs to see if there was a pattern of progress that could be established and this is when I noticed the, what appeared, contradiction.

I understand the principles of influence of game events and how an attribute can take an immediate step up but was under the impression that this was more limited to things like strikers finishing increase when scoring hatricks etc. It seems from what you are saying that this can occur around any of the attributes and that could indeed be what I am seeing.

Obviously if you are convinced that the training element will issue an identical increase against all attributes in the category, and any anomolies outside of this are because of other events, then that is good enough for me and answers my question allowing me to continue with my project.

However just out of interest here is a simple example which drew me to the question of why these attributes seemed to have randomly risen, out of sync, over a period of time. Perhaps your explanation above is the reason

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[Cleon]

I am currently using the SFraser schedules on FM10 and know that this theory has since been debunked and as I don't have a great deal of time on FM I wanted to create a simple method of creating and fine tuning training shedules. The idea being to maybe get some sort of spreadsheet matrix together, based on some sound theories, so that attributes could be punched in to give a reasonable schedule as the output.

As yet my visual study has just been a look through all my players training attribute graphs to see if there was a pattern of progress that could be established and this is when I noticed the, what appeared, contradiction.

I understand the principles of influence of game events and how an attribute can take an immediate step up but was under the impression that this was more limited to things like strikers finishing increase when scoring hatricks etc. It seems from what you are saying that this can occur around any of the attributes and that could indeed be what I am seeing.

Obviously if you are convinced that the training element will issue an identical increase against all attributes in the category, and any anomolies outside of this are because of other events, then that is good enough for me and answers my question allowing me to continue with my project.

However just out of interest here is a simple example which drew me to the question of why these attributes seemed to have randomly risen, out of sync, over a period of time. Perhaps your explanation above is the reason

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

How is that out of sync? Over a year they've improved roughly the same.....

Plus lower the base value the harder it is to see an initial change due to the greater amount of PA used.

And remember all training does is distribute the CA and doesnt actually give CA, that comes from match experience. So that can somewhat explain why the change at different periods and doubled with the fact they were all different values to begin with means they would change differently.

Plus you souldn't include pre season in any analysis you make because naturally the attributes decline. So if you dont use a good pre season schedule this will have a massive impact on the attribute developments during the season.

[Seagullfan]

I suppose in my mind I had this vision that they would all increase at the same time and couldn't understand why 1 attribute would increase in December and another not until Oct the following year. Thanks for the explanation which makes it a lot clearer.

Is pace particularly difficult to increase as I see there has been no movement at all in this although that sort of does seem to make sense as I guess pace is something you either have or don't and would be quite difficult to train IRL

[Cleon]

I suppose in my mind I had this vision that they would all increase at the same time and couldn't understand why 1 attribute would increase in December and another not until Oct the following year. Thanks for the explanation which makes it a lot clearer.

Is pace particularly difficult to increase as I see there has been no movement at all in this although that sort of does seem to make sense as I guess pace is something you either have or don't and would be quite difficult to train IRL

Any attribute that is low is hard to work on, especially players over 19. But you can raise it to a respectable level but it takes times and not only 10 months. It's a progression and will take several years.

Did you read the threads I linked? Especially the Youth Development one as you'll see an example of my player and how I made his attributes rise over a period of 7 years.

[Seagullfan]

Just reading it now thanks

[achilles-the-victorious]

There are players with fast, normal and slow progression. Of course the rate of progress can change as well, but you will see some players can reach their potential by about 23 or 24, while others don't reach it until 26, or even later!

I didn't know I was doing my players a disservice by subbing them on 2 goals, but usually their finishing is pretty good already, can a hat trick raise a young player's composure???

A final note: Game experience at the right level, and playing to a good standard, is a very very important part of player development.

Any attribute that is low is hard to work on, especially players over 19. But you can raise it to a respectable level but it takes times and not only 10 months. It's a progression and will take several years.

Did you read the threads I linked? Especially the Youth Development one as you'll see an example of my player and how I made his attributes rise over a period of 7 years.

[Seagullfan]

There are players with fast, normal and slow progression. Of course the rate of progress can change as well, but you will see some players can reach their potential by about 23 or 24, while others don't reach it until 26, or even later!

I didn't know I was doing my players a disservice by subbing them on 2 goals, but usually their finishing is pretty good already, can a hat trick raise a young player's composure???

A final note: Game experience at the right level, and playing to a good standard, is a very very important part of player development.

Yes agree with your final note. That is the thing that is quite frustrating about playing in Italy as there is no reserve league only youth. Also this is my first season out of the bottom tier which is quite exciting as I can loan out my youngsters now. A couple of my young strikers are banging in the goals in Serie C2 which will develop them much quicker than playing in the youth team with me

[furiousuk]

Bear in mind that the attributes don't just jump from 12 to 13 (for example), they move through the decimals in between, in my experience a player who is progressing can increase a stat by 0.2 per month, sometimes 0.4 (you could probably squeeze a 0.6 if you used a suitably radical training schedule which I don't). If 0.2 is the lowest jump then the attribute range is actually 0-100, which is then visually represented by dividing by 5 and rounding to give you a 0-20 range (I might be wrong but it's probably hard-capped to bottom out at 1 - or 5 - rather than 0 so the actual range we all know and love is 1-20).

The attribute will only change when it breaches the 12.5 barrier (due to rounding) so a player on 12.4 (12 in-game) can quickly rise to 12.6 (13) whereas a player on 11.6 (12) will take a little while to hit 12.6 (13). As far as you know in-game the 11.6 attribute is just taking a while to improve when infact it is improving just as well as the 12.4 attribute which jumped up months ago.

This is all far easier to see in FM11 (and presumably FM12) but was invisible in FM09 (and, from your screenshot, also FM10). The training module has been changed since FM10 but I can't see they would change this underlying mechanism so I'm assuming this is all relevant for FM10. I'd say it's highly unlikely it isn't.

Edit: A picture tells a thousand words!

The green line between May and June jumps 0.4 but otherwise it's 0.2.

[Seagullfan]

I was aware it was a gradual increase and this is represented in FM10 more clearly in the training arrows. Interesting to see it is better graphically represented in FM11. I tend to play quite slowly and enjoy the whole package of team building, studying matches, understanding player motivation etc as much as the matches themselves so am enjoying my FM10 save too much to give it up for a newer version.

[Kuchiki]

@Cleon

Plus lower the base value the harder it is to see an initial change due to the greater amount of PA used.

Are you saying that the lower their attribute is, the more PA will be used if it increases? I always assumed it would cost less PA to improve a low attribute rather than a high one.

[Cleon]

@Cleon

Plus lower the base value the harder it is to see an initial change due to the greater amount of PA used.

Are you saying that the lower their attribute is, the more PA will be used if it increases? I always assumed it would cost less PA to improve a low attribute rather than a high one.

Why did you think that?

You need to use a lot more PA to get it to a respectable level. It's also a lot harder to change a lower attribute into a higher one rather than making a higher attribute even higher.

[Kuchiki]

I thought I read it somewhere in the FM hints and tips or perhaps just another thread I can't pinpoint more specifically where I come across this idea just that when I read it it seemed logical. Do you have a thread you could refer me to to back up your claim if possible? If its going out of your way there's no need to, i'll be browsing in search of this concept but if you have a relevant thread at hand it would be of great help.

[Cleon]

I thought I read it somewhere in the FM hints and tips or perhaps just another thread I can't pinpoint more specifically where I come across this idea just that when I read it it seemed logical. Do you have a thread you could refer me to to back up your claim if possible? If its going out of your way there's no need to, i'll be browsing in search of this concept but if you have a relevant thread at hand it would be of great help.

It's not a claim, its a fact. Search general it was posted in there last year

I'm not sure how anyone can think to raise a low attribute to a higher respectable level would use a lower PA though, it's not logical at all.

[Kuchiki]

You have to provide evidence for it to be a fact, no offense meant. To me it seems logical, surely it would take a lot more work to improve an attribute which is already high to be at its highest peak (20 being world class) rather than an attribute which is low and can be improved drastically (1 being Sunday league). Of course I'm just speculating I have no idea how it translates towards the FM game itself but you should be able to see where I'm coming from.

[qqq]

Just to add to what Cleon is saying, to get someones pace from a poor 8 to a respectable 14 would need an increase of 6 but to turn a pace of 16 into a rocket fuelled pace of 20 would only require an increase of 4. The increase from a high pace to a very high pace does not require anymore PA points just because it is already at such a high number. Attribute increases are based on a weighting system that costs different amounts of the overall PA for different attributes and different player positions, through a complicated distribution equation.

[Kuchiki]

Just to add to what Cleon is saying, to get someones pace from a poor 8 to a respectable 14 would need an increase of 6 but to turn a pace of 16 into a rocket fuelled pace of 20 would only require an increase of 4. The increase from a high pace to a very high pace does not require anymore PA points just because it is already at such a high number. Attribute increases are based on a weighting system that costs different amounts of the overall PA for different attributes and different player positions, through a complicated distribution equation.

I can see this point of view but what Cleon has said is it takes more PA to improve a lower attribute than a higher one.

[Kuchiki]

Well I've just done my own experiment and it concluded your statement is likely false.

[Cleon]

Well I've just done my own experiment and it concluded your statement is likely false.

Ok believe what you want

Mantralux's thread is wrong on several points and not only on this point.

[Kuchiki]

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/2355/jordanlussey.png

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/6433/jackdunn.png

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/5079/theirpa.png

Evidence for my claim although many variables haven't been taken into account.

[Cleon]

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/2355/jordanlussey.png

http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/6433/jackdunn.png

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/5079/theirpa.png

Evidence for my claim although many variables haven't been taken into account.

I fail to see the evidence, you must have posted the wrong links;)

There is one fundemental flaw in the above btw, I'll let you work out what it was. It should be obvious to you, if not then it shows I'm wasting my time even replying to you.

[Kuchiki]

Why are you being so rude? my posts have the intention of helping the fm community. If you fail to see what I'm trying to show please tell me what, if there is a flaw tell me. Being rude and dismissive helps no one.

[qqq]

OK, one more time, to get from 8 to 14 needs an increase of 6 units of however the PA is distributed, 6 have gone from the PA limit. To get from 16 to 20 needs an increase of 4 units of however the PA is distributed, 4 have gone from the PA limit.

6 is a bigger number than 4, so therfore it takes more PA to get from a low (8) to a respectable (14) than it does to get from a high (16) to a very high (20).

[Cleon]

Why are you being so rude? my posts have the intention of helping the fm community. If you fail to see what I'm trying to show please tell me what, if there is a flaw tell me. Being rude and dismissive helps no one.

I was rude yes so I'll apologise for that.

But still it's flawed and if you cannot see why then I really don't have the time or patience to point out the obvious to you and get into a discussion that is flawed on your part from the off.

Sorry. But good luck

[Kuchiki]

Why did you think that?

You need to use a lot more PA to get it to a respectable level. It's also a lot harder to change a lower attribute into a higher one rather than making a higher attribute even higher.

I'm sorry I've re-read the post and realized I'm talking about something slightly different, what I'm talking about is increasing a low attribute from 5 to 6 would not use more PA than raising an attribute of 15 to 16.

[Kuchiki]

So does my theory hold true or is it that you believe the evidence is flawed because it doesn't show their personalities (same) or were we on about different things?

[Seagullfan]

@Cleon As the general consensus seems to be that training does not gain CA, only allocates it to the various attributes, then am I correct in assuming that if you had a player that never played then any attribute gains would be at the expense of losses elsewhere in other attributes. I base this on CA gain coming only from playing matches and nowhere else yes? Still talking FM 10 by the way

[Seagullfan]

So does my theory hold true or is it that you believe the evidence is flawed because it doesn't show their personalities (same) or were we on about different things?

I maybe wrong but I imagine that the problem is that your sample does not take into consideration many other factors that will influence attribute growth and the fact that it has been conducted over only 4 months when the adjustments may take much longer than this

[Cleon]

@Cleon As the general consensus seems to be that training does not gain CA, only allocates it to the various attributes, then am I correct in assuming that if you had a player that never played then any attribute gains would be at the expense of losses elsewhere in other attributes. I base this on CA gain coming only from playing matches and nowhere else yes? Still talking FM 10 by the way

They'd still get it from reserve and youths fixtures and indirectly from tutoring if there was a change in personality. But if a player plays no games at all wheter it be first team, youth or reserves then he wouldn't improve as a player need to be match fit in order to progress.

[Seagullfan]

@cleon Ok so I have now spent several hours reading and re reading all I can on training to try and cut through the myriad of information, contradictions and general falsehoods on this subject and think I can now design my own schedules. Can you cast your eye over this and see what still maybe wrong, missing or incomplete from an FM 10 perspective.

Player Training Levels Graph

This shows how well a player is currently training in each category based on :

The settings of the sliders in the Training Schedule

The coach stars allocated to each category in the coaching training section

The coach workload for each category

The personality of the player

The players current morale?

Other player hidden attributes?

( I read his work rate attribute could affect it?? )

Player Training Progress

A visual bar chart enabling you to see the historical monthly progress of each category when it is selected in the training levels graph

Players - Training ( In screen where you set up player schedules )

Arrows that indicate a players actual progress in a training category in terms of the change in the value of 1 or more of the attributes in a category. Dark Green indicating an imminent increase, orange a gradual decline and red an imminent reduction. This should produce the results anticipated by the height of the bars from the training levels graph. ie. the higher the bar the better the player is training in that category so the more green you should see.

With the above information it is now possible to design individual player training schedules

Training Schedules Blueprint

Decide on what you require from the player in your team

Study his attributes and decide which need improving and which can be sacrificed to a greater or lesser degree

Adjust sliders on schedule to reflect item 2 being mindful of the coach star rating for each category as those with low stars will require greater emphasis to achieve the results.

At regular intervals check player training levels graph to see it has the "shape" you are looking for and tweak training schedule accordingly. These levels could be changing as a result of the non training schedule input ( Morale etc )

Regularly check the players training arrows to see they are moving as you anticipate.

Check player training attributes graph to see that the attributes are growing/ decreasing as you intended.

Continue this process at regular intervals until you have achieved the desired result

Continue to try and recruit better coaches to speed the whole process up.

Hopefully this all makes sense and any comments or suggestions are welcome and also any thoughts on how training facilities impact on the above.

[Cleon]

I honestly can't remember the training module on FM10. I remember it was changed but I can't remember if it was for FM10 or FM09.

[Seagullfan]

I honestly can't remember the training module on FM10. I remember it was changed but I can't remember if it was for FM10 or FM09.

Thanks anyway, I shall give it a go and see how it pans out