Arsenal Tactics Help....

[Paul Barton]

I started a file with Arsenal and thought i'd try and make my own tactic - but i have been struggling abit and my performances have been pretty poor....

I signed Munain from Bilbao and a Brazilian Granso - both good attacking players to add further attacking options to my side.

My side:

My Team Instructions are:

I have a pretty creative front 3 or 4 so tried to include this within the instructions along with a more attacking (control) and fluid style as i have the players to play this. But something is just not right? Im not doing terrible but i concede alot of goals and there just isn't enough clear cut chances being made. Are there any obvious errors in this setup or anything anyone can suggest?

[Paul Barton]

Ahhhhh - how can i upload images?! It didnt work!

[Cleon]

Hello there

When asking for help you need to be more specific in what you actually need help with and what the problems are you actually face. If not all it is, is a screenshot and no-one can offer you any advice on it.

Have you watched games in full or watched any games you've played back to see what the 'doesn't feel right' actually is?

You might find this of use http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/305067-The-Full-90-Minutes-What-I-Do

[5uare2]

I think your setup isn't necessarily tactically coherent. Here's why:

First off, you're using 2 inside forwards, so your team becomes very narrow when attacking. Usually teams who do this get their fullbacks to come up the pitch to provide width (e.g. Zabaleta & Clichy for City, Alves for Barca, Lahm & Alaba for Bayern), but Gibbs and Sagna are only on support duties - so they'll get forward a bit, but not enough.

Also, your inside forwards move from wide areas into the middle of the pitch - to the exact area where you've put Ganso now. That's not so bad, because he's a trequartista so he'll move around, but there will be times where the players get in each other's way.

Plus, you want inside forwards to be on the flank opposite to their stronger foot - hence Bayern playing the left-footed Robben on the right, for example. You've got this spot on with Muniain, but Gervinho is right-footed, so playing him as an inside forward on the right flank means he's trying to make his attacking moves on his weaker left foot.

Also, check your player's preferred moves (PPM) under the 'positions' tab on their individual screens. You'll notice that van Persie, if I remember correctly, has the preferred move "comes deep to get ball". This means that even though you're using him as an advanced forward, he'll drop deeper as a deep-lying forward would - again, into the space of Ganso, Muniain and Gervinho. It's suddenly getting very crowded there.

A possible solution to all of this? Feel free not to take my advice, but this might help give you a more coherent set up:

- Play Gervinho as a winger (attack) - that way he'll stay wide and provide some attacking width for you on that flank.

- Put Gibbs on an attack duty - you have your more defensive CM, Song, on that side, so there should be some defensive cover; but this way, when Muniain cuts inside, Gibbs can run into the space he leaves so you provide width on that flank, but also double up on the opposition's right-back.

- You may consider playing Song as a central midfielder (defend) or a deep-lying playmaker (defend); unlike ball-winning midfielder (defend), these roles ask the player to hold his position more rather than aggressively close down the opposition - with ball-winning midfielder, Song might get caught out up the pitch and leave space behind to exploit

- Similarly with Arteta, the central midfielder (support) duty doesn't necessarily suit his skills best, and again gives him license to abandon his central midfield position. A deep-lying playmaker (support) role will ask him to dictate your passes from his position rather than be a jack-of-all-trades (which is what I see central midfielder support as)

This doesn't solve the issue of van Persie dropping deeper, though. A more radical switch would be to change to a 4-3-3 (or 4-1-2-2-1), with Song moving to a DM, Ganso sitting next to Arteta as an Advanced Playmaker (attack), and that way van Persie and Muniain won't run into the AMC's space.

[Paul Barton]

Thanks for your advice - i'll have a play aroud with things using this and let you know how i get on!

[James9]

I think your setup isn't necessarily tactically coherent. Here's why:

First off, you're using 2 inside forwards, so your team becomes very narrow when attacking. Usually teams who do this get their fullbacks to come up the pitch to provide width (e.g. Zabaleta & Clichy for City, Alves for Barca, Lahm & Alaba for Bayern), but Gibbs and Sagna are only on support duties - so they'll get forward a bit, but not enough.

Also, your inside forwards move from wide areas into the middle of the pitch - to the exact area where you've put Ganso now. That's not so bad, because he's a trequartista so he'll move around, but there will be times where the players get in each other's way.

Plus, you want inside forwards to be on the flank opposite to their stronger foot - hence Bayern playing the left-footed Robben on the right, for example. You've got this spot on with Muniain, but Gervinho is right-footed, so playing him as an inside forward on the right flank means he's trying to make his attacking moves on his weaker left foot.

Also, check your player's preferred moves (PPM) under the 'positions' tab on their individual screens. You'll notice that van Persie, if I remember correctly, has the preferred move "comes deep to get ball". This means that even though you're using him as an advanced forward, he'll drop deeper as a deep-lying forward would - again, into the space of Ganso, Muniain and Gervinho. It's suddenly getting very crowded there.

A possible solution to all of this? Feel free not to take my advice, but this might help give you a more coherent set up:

- Play Gervinho as a winger (attack) - that way he'll stay wide and provide some attacking width for you on that flank.

- Put Gibbs on an attack duty - you have your more defensive CM, Song, on that side, so there should be some defensive cover; but this way, when Muniain cuts inside, Gibbs can run into the space he leaves so you provide width on that flank, but also double up on the opposition's right-back.

- You may consider playing Song as a central midfielder (defend) or a deep-lying playmaker (defend); unlike ball-winning midfielder (defend), these roles ask the player to hold his position more rather than aggressively close down the opposition - with ball-winning midfielder, Song might get caught out up the pitch and leave space behind to exploit

- Similarly with Arteta, the central midfielder (support) duty doesn't necessarily suit his skills best, and again gives him license to abandon his central midfield position. A deep-lying playmaker (support) role will ask him to dictate your passes from his position rather than be a jack-of-all-trades (which is what I see central midfielder support as)

This doesn't solve the issue of van Persie dropping deeper, though. A more radical switch would be to change to a 4-3-3 (or 4-1-2-2-1), with Song moving to a DM, Ganso sitting next to Arteta as an Advanced Playmaker (attack), and that way van Persie and Muniain won't run into the AMC's space.

5fuare2 Would you recommend giving van Persie a deep lying forward support or attack role and how would you set his run from deep instructions.

[furiousuk]

Plus, you want inside forwards to be on the flank opposite to their stronger foot - hence Bayern playing the left-footed Robben on the right, for example. You've got this spot on with Muniain, but Gervinho is right-footed, so playing him as an inside forward on the right flank means he's trying to make his attacking moves on his weaker left foot.

As a general rule of thumb this is pretty good advice but you can play an inside forward without him being 'opposite-footed'.

I quite like having an opposite footer on one side and a same-side footer on the other side as I find their natural lines of run differ which creates a weak asymmetry.

PPM's are quite important in this too, a right-footer on the right with modest technique and the 'shoots with power' PPM might not be particularly effective at hitting the target but a right-footer on the right who has epic technique and 'places his shots' will probably be fine from the naturally tighter angle he will often find himself in (I'm not saying the guy might not be better on the left but there might be other reasons you'd prefer him not to be on the left).

I normally have an opposite footer on the right as an out-and-out strike player and a more creative guy on the left (usually with a left foot). Both are inside forward-attacks but they play very very differently and get very different stats at the end of the year. Plays out a bit like an aggressive playmaker on the left with a striker on the right. And I don't have to fiddle with any tactics, just try to make intelligence selection choices.

[llama3]

if you made Arteta a Deep-Lying Playmaker, because of his extended passing range he will play longer balls and bypass Ganso more frequently. He is actually better of as an MC as it allows him to intelligently hold his position and give balance to the side. Especially because Song is better off as a Ball-Winning Midfielder and Arteta as a normal MC provides cover for it.

I do agree about using wing-backs instead. Furthermore though a right-footed player as an Inside Forward on the right flank can still use his right foot round the outside of the full back as an option, especially if he finds the space in the centre more congested. Theo Walcott has the "dribbles down right flank" PPM and does this to good effect for me.

I use an advanced playmaker instead of a trequartista as with van Persie dropping deep, you don't need another man holding position in the centre without pushing forward into his space.

An Advanced Forward is bets used as someone trying to break the defensive line, and van Persie offers so much more than that, he would be better off as a Deep-Lying Forward (Attack or Support) to allow him to set up on the onrushing Inside Forward's or Advanced Playmaker.

Alex Song is playing a heavy pressing role, why not get your team instructions as pressing and zonal marking, as this will get your side pressing as a team in a shape, rather than 1 man pressing and leaving gaps. This is a more coherent strategy. Consider drilling crosses as van Persie is not a tall target man, and the side in general are short/average height.

[furiousuk]

An interesting idea I saw written in another thread was to have Song as a Ball-winner/support with Arteta as a DLP/Def. I can't remember the thread (but someone will) but the author made a compelling argument that this is a much better way round than having the BWM as the defensive of the pair.

I haven't tried it but it should allow Song to tear around midfield and not worry too much about being out of position as Arteta should hold the ground and act as a fail-safe when Song fails to win the ball or put anyone under pressure - although when he does put someone under pressure Arteta can use his intelligence to try and cut off passing lines and get plenty of interceptions. Playing deeper allows Arteta more time to use his creativity and pick passes whilst an all-action BWM (does Song fit this description? He didn't in my save but was aging) will offer his enthusiasm going forward. Plenty of advantages this way round with not many disadvantages.

[James9]

if you made Arteta a Deep-Lying Playmaker, because of his extended passing range he will play longer balls and bypass Ganso more frequently. He is actually better of as an MC as it allows him to intelligently hold his position and give balance to the side. Especially because Song is better off as a Ball-Winning Midfielder and Arteta as a normal MC provides cover for it.

I do agree about using wing-backs instead. Furthermore though a right-footed player as an Inside Forward on the right flank can still use his right foot round the outside of the full back as an option, especially if he finds the space in the centre more congested. Theo Walcott has the "dribbles down right flank" PPM and does this to good effect for me.

I use an advanced playmaker instead of a trequartista as with van Persie dropping deep, you don't need another man holding position in the centre without pushing forward into his space.

An Advanced Forward is bets used as someone trying to break the defensive line, and van Persie offers so much more than that, he would be better off as a Deep-Lying Forward (Attack or Support) to allow him to set up on the onrushing Inside Forward's or Advanced Playmaker.

Alex Song is playing a heavy pressing role, why not get your team instructions as pressing and zonal marking, as this will get your side pressing as a team in a shape, rather than 1 man pressing and leaving gaps. This is a more coherent strategy. Consider drilling crosses as van Persie is not a tall target man, and the side in general are short/average height.

Llama do you have your advance playmaker on support or attack. Do you find that with van Persie drooping deep and both wingers cutting inside makes the space for the advance playmaker congested. Also if you gave Arteta a Central Midfielder Support role what role would you give to Alex Song

[Paul Barton]

Im doing average still - i have tried watching the games. I read Cleons thread as well about what to change. I can see some problems with my side but it's about how to fix them and knowing what to do to fix them thats the hard part.

For example, i can see that there my defence is not very well organised. They keep getting pulled out of position. There are not enough options on the ball for my midfielders when they have the ball. God, i really do hate this game at times, so complicated and detailed!

[furiousuk]

You don't have to make it too complicated to be successful though. Keep your tactics fairly simple and neutral and the skill of the game comes down to selecting the right squad. A few shouts help to sway things your way but nothing revolutionary, just try something and see if it works. If it doesn't try something different.

To be fair, 4231 is a really difficult formation to get right in FM (probably in real life too). You have to accept the AML/AMR aren't going to do that much defending, and the AMC probably won't do much either which can put a lot of pressure on your back 4 and CM's.

Have you tried a 4411 with attacking ML/MR? It plays out pretty similar but is a bit easier to use.

[James9]

You don't have to make it too complicated to be successful though. Keep your tactics fairly simple and neutral and the skill of the game comes down to selecting the right squad. A few shouts help to sway things your way but nothing revolutionary, just try something and see if it works. If it doesn't try something different.

To be fair, 4231 is a really difficult formation to get right in FM (probably in real life too). You have to accept the AML/AMR aren't going to do that much defending, and the AMC probably won't do much either which can put a lot of pressure on your back 4 and CM's.

Have you tried a 4411 with attacking ML/MR? It plays out pretty similar but is a bit easier to use.

Furiousuk how would you set up your midfield four in a 4411 formation. I also struggle with playing fm 12 and would not mind getting some help with my set up.

[furiousuk]

If I was just switching from a 4231 to a 4411 in order to try and shore up my wide defence (which I have done when trying to see out a game but without wanting to go 4141) I'd treat everything the same as my regular 4231 formation.

In my case that would mean both central defenders should drop deeper - something like DLP/S-CM/D or 2 DLP's - with both wide midfielders as Winger-Att or Adv.PM-Att (can you set Adv.PM on ML/MR? I can't remember but anything that makes them worry more about attack than defence is what I'd be after). I might also set the wide play of the ML/MR to cut inside as I'd generally have my AML/AMR cut inside. If my AML/AMR are more traditional winger types then it's easier as you just set ML/MR to Winger-Att.

ML/MR set as wingers will get forward plenty (particularly if your AMC & FC stay fairly central) but because they'll tend to sit deeper when you don't have the ball they'll naturally do more defending. The thing you lose is that when you regain possession they won't be as high up the pitch for a lightning quick counter but that's the choice you make.

[Paul Barton]

I will try 4411 - only problem is that Gervinho and Munain are not best placed in the wide roles so might be a problem...

[furiousuk]

I will try 4411 - only problem is that Gervinho and Munain are not best placed in the wide roles so might be a problem...

Yeah, I have the same issue. Hence I hardly ever do it

[dz47]

I’ve come to FM12 late, so have only just started playing the game. I pretty much gave up trying to get a 4231 to work with Arsenal in FM11. I know that many have been successful, but I find that RVP’s natural tendency to come deep from the FC position made setting up the AM and wide roles more complicated. I actually ended up having more success pushing RVP out wide as an inside fwd, and playing a more direct and traditional fwd in the striker position.

For my first save as Arsenal on FM12 I’ve decided to go back to a 442 shape for my main tactic, with a 451 as a back up for more difficult matches. I’ve brought in Leandro Daimao (sp?) to play as a TM/attack (left fwd), with RVP in his natural and preferred roll as a DLP support (right fwd). I then have Arteta playing as a winger/support on the right and Willian as an advanced playmaker/attack cutting in from the left. Wilshere is DLP/support (LCM) and Song is DM/support (RDM). Fullbacks are on auto (might change at least one of these) and then I have a ball playing defender/stopper and CD/cover set up at the back.

It’s very early days yet, but so far it’s doing exactly what I want it to. The passing triangles between MC/AML and DLF are really nice, and RVP is causing opposition teams all kinds of trouble when he drops into the hole and looks to play through balls to the other central striker. On the other side, Arteta also combines nicely with Song and RVP, and also often finds himself with plenty of time and space to either play an angled through ball or a cross (remembering that he has excellent crossing ability) to the back post to Daimao.

It’s realy simple stuff, but seems to work well. I know that 4231 is all the rage, but other formations are definitely worth considering IMO

[5uare2]

Lots of great advice here even for people other than the OP.

5uare2 Would you recommend giving van Persie a deep lying forward support or attack role and how would you set his run from deep instructions.

van Persie's PPMs basically make it difficult to play him as anything other than a trequartista or DLF; any instructions you give him that aren't in sync with this will just lessen his effectiveness. If you want to play a 4-2-3-1 with van persie as your spearhead, I'd play him as a DLF support, with an attacking midfielder (attack) or inside forward (attack) behind him; try to have a 'false 9 and 10' setup happening, where van Persie tries to play through balls for the AMC (with run from deep often) to rush onto. This is similar to what Llama3 suggested above about playing Ganso as something other than a trequartista

I normally have an opposite footer on the right as an out-and-out strike player and a more creative guy on the left (usually with a left foot). Both are inside forward-attacks but they play very very differently and get very different stats at the end of the year. Plays out a bit like an aggressive playmaker on the left with a striker on the right. And I don't have to fiddle with any tactics, just try to make intelligence selection choices.

Ooh, this is interesting, I might give it a go; I'm imagining something like Modric on the left as a playmaker and Bale on the right as more of a typical goal-scoring inside forward. Is there any reason why you don't just the 'creative guy on the left' as an Advanced Playmaker? Do you find that using an Inside Forward is more attacking?

if you made Arteta a Deep-Lying Playmaker, because of his extended passing range he will play longer balls and bypass Ganso more frequently. He is actually better of as an MC as it allows him to intelligently hold his position and give balance to the side. Especially because Song is better off as a Ball-Winning Midfielder and Arteta as a normal MC provides cover for it.

Good point about the DLP's passing range. But would you keep Arteta as a Central Midfielder (support)? I was only raising the point that you don't want him running from deep at all because of Song being set as a ball-winner. Your suggestion of having the whole team press when you use a BWM is great as well, I never thought of that but it seems so obvious now.

Furthermore though a right-footed player as an Inside Forward on the right flank can still use his right foot round the outside of the full back as an option, especially if he finds the space in the centre more congested. Theo Walcott has the "dribbles down right flank" PPM and does this to good effect for me.

How does this play out in the ME? Does he cut inside much later, i.e. close to the touchline? Because that might be useful, there have been times where I've been frustrated by my inside forwards cutting in too early and getting stuck in the middle of the pitch outside the box.

[llama3]

An interesting idea I saw written in another thread was to have Song as a Ball-winner/support with Arteta as a DLP/Def. I can't remember the thread (but someone will) but the author made a compelling argument that this is a much better way round than having the BWM as the defensive of the pair.

I haven't tried it but it should allow Song to tear around midfield and not worry too much about being out of position as Arteta should hold the ground and act as a fail-safe when Song fails to win the ball or put anyone under pressure - although when he does put someone under pressure Arteta can use his intelligence to try and cut off passing lines and get plenty of interceptions. Playing deeper allows Arteta more time to use his creativity and pick passes whilst an all-action BWM (does Song fit this description? He didn't in my save but was aging) will offer his enthusiasm going forward. Plenty of advantages this way round with not many disadvantages.

it was on a thread of mine that this was discussed (check forum links thread at the top of the tactics subforum) - but it is a very interesting mode. would anyone be interested in me doing up a thread or 2 on how to set up certain tactical styles? i.e. a counter-attacking, possession etc?

[llama3]

Llama do you have your advance playmaker on support or attack. Do you find that with van Persie drooping deep and both wingers cutting inside makes the space for the advance playmaker congested. Also if you gave Arteta a Central Midfielder Support role what role would you give to Alex Song

advanced playmaker attack - and no, van persie is intelligent, can drift wide too, ramsey can move into space or push on forward, or he can hold position and the wide men can stay wide - it depends on how intelligent the players are, and how good your instructions are, but it can work very well. Alex Song as ball-winning midfielder - he fits the bill perfectly

[ShirazS]

it was on a thread of mine that this was discussed (check forum links thread at the top of the tactics subforum) - but it is a very interesting mode. would anyone be interested in me doing up a thread or 2 on how to set up certain tactical styles? i.e. a counter-attacking, possession etc?

Would definitely be interested. Loved your threads on the Treq, Regista and Ball-Winner, have them all bookmarked

[llama3]

i'll crack on with them later (or tomorrow) finished nights, and am still awake, will see how long that lasts

[ShirazS]

i'll crack on with them later (or tomorrow) finished nights, and am still awake, will see how long that lasts

Nice! In addition, if you have the time and are able to, it would be awesome if you could do more threads on specific player roles like the ones I mentioned above

[Paul Barton]

I have switched to a more simple 442 with my wingers pushed forward and having alot more success now. Im thinking that the 4231 might be abit to complicated for someone like me to get to work!

[furiousuk]

Ooh, this is interesting, I might give it a go; I'm imagining something like Modric on the left as a playmaker and Bale on the right as more of a typical goal-scoring inside forward. Is there any reason why you don't just the 'creative guy on the left' as an Advanced Playmaker? Do you find that using an Inside Forward is more attacking?

.

As you suggest I do change the more creative guy to Adv.PM on occasion, particularly if there is space between the lines for him to operate in but even though he is the more creative of the pair I still want his primary role to be aggressive so use the IF for the exact attacking reason you've picked up on.

it was on a thread of mine that this was discussed (check forum links thread at the top of the tactics subforum) - but it is a very interesting mode. would anyone be interested in me doing up a thread or 2 on how to set up certain tactical styles? i.e. a counter-attacking, possession etc?

Great thread (again) that one llama3. It's not often that someone gets me to change my thinking about FM (or introduces a new way) and your thread really got me thinking. Which was nice.