Makonnen Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 Welcome to the FMS Feedback & Discussion Thread! This thread is intended to be a writer’s group for the readers and writers of FMS. The goal is to move beyond the usual Great job, I love this story! comments—although, don’t get us wrong, we love those, too. But sometimes writers want a more in-depth critique of their work, or they may want specific types of feedback, or they may want ideas on how to try something new in their craft. This is the place for all that. In the grand mansion of FMS, we’re sort of the room being built on, next to the cellar. There are two “basement rules” to keep in mind. If you’re a writer looking for feedback, please take the time to ask a specific question. Help us help you. I’m using my story to improve my English: please tear my grammar and punctuation apart or I’m trying something new with my star striker’s relationship with his father, please let me know what you think of it are much more useful requests than any feedback welcome. If you’re going to ask others to provide detailed feedback on your writing, please be willing to make the investment in them to do the same in turn. Reciprocity is the coin of this particular realm. That’s really it. All of the FMS and SI rules apply too, of course. Remember that writing is always personal: our hope is that supportive, engaged critique leads to better writers with greater range and creativity. But for that to happen, the stress needs to be on supportive and engaged. If you have any questions about this thread, feel free to PM any of your friendly neighborhood moderators, or Makonnen or Dalbeider, who have volunteered to pay special attention to the basement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tenthreeleader Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Well done, Mak. I'll be lurking around here too, of course. Thank you for taking the initiative to get this going. As of now I will close the former Story Ideas and Discussion Thread with this replacing it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenArsenal Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I just noticed your Wattpad. Will follow in due course. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gricehead Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Subscribed, so I can't be accused of not keeping up with forum goings-on. If anyone wants anything reading and criticising (objectively and constructively) let me know. None of my subscribed stories are moving along much at the moment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sherm Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Great idea Mak, will certainly be popping into this thread Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tenthreeleader Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 Here is a fun test for those who want a quick judgment on the clarity of their writing. Click on this link to go directly to a Flesch-Kincaid English calculator. A Flesch-Kincaid score measures comprehension difficulty for your work based upon education grade level, and also gives you a 'readability score' between 0 and 100, with 100 being the easiest to read. More complex work will generate a higher 'grade' level and a lower readability score. I've tried it with selected passages from Rat Pack and Ace of Spades and the results are roughly where I figured they would be. In Rat Pack, my match writing routinely checks out at a tenth or eleventh grade level with readability scores in the high 60s, while story arcs are at eighth or ninth grade level with readability scores in the 70s. Ace of Spades, being more flowing in style, carries lower grade levels for comprehension and higher readability scores. To give you an idea of how it works, this post above this line grades at a 14th grade reading level (second-year college here in the States) with a readability score of 35 due to its technical nature. If you want different languages, they are also available on that site including a Fernandez-Huerta score for Spanish. Discuss. Carry on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dalbeider Posted May 26, 2012 Share Posted May 26, 2012 Heh. Got an 8th grade and a 60 readability score for Red & Yellow's whole prologue. About par for the course judging from what I've got with random pieces of other stuff I've written (always ranging from 7-9 and 55-65). Not too bad, I guess, considering I got a 69 with the Spanish one . Way too long sentences are my most likely downfall, I'm afraid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manxie_Ash Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 I just used that website for the lols to see how Stephenie Meyer's prose actually rates. Grade 10 and a 45 on the readability scale for that awful first paragraph: "My mother drove me to the airport with the windows rolled down. It was seventy-five degrees in Phoenix, the sky a perfect, cloudless blue. I was wearing my favorite shirt--sleeveless, white eyelet lace; I was wearing it as a farewell gesture. My carry-on item was a parka." I found a blog where someone had rewritten that paragraph: "Mom drove me to the airport, the Phoenix sun smiling down through the perfect, cloudless blue. With the windows down, the wind tugged at my favorite sleeveless shirt. This could be the last time the white eyelet lace would see the sun; tucked away as a carry-on, my parka sat waiting" And that got a rating of 10th grade and a 67 ease of reading score. Way off topic, but it made me chuckle slightly Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tenthreeleader Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 "My mother drove me to the airport with the windows rolled down. I didn't know her mother HAD windows. They must be very difficult to custom-fit. It's a sentence like Meyer's that gives me hope of actually getting published someday. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peacemaker7 Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 I didn't know her mother HAD windows. They must be very difficult to custom-fit. It's a sentence like Meyer's that gives me hope of actually getting published someday. It's amazing how much absolute garbage gets published. It's those people that actually make me think I'd never get published, I can't write that badly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makonnen Posted May 27, 2012 Author Share Posted May 27, 2012 Heh. On a lark, I grabbed the paragraph of my dissertation I'm working on and ran it through the FK score. 24/6. So that seems spot on! And, because procrastination rocks, random samplings from 5m1w Leigh's Story. 9/65. David Barron Dream Sequence. 10/59. Terry in a Bar. 8/61. Bones in a Bar. 9/60. So that seems to be statistically insignificant in the differences. Guessing the more fantastical pieces (the dream sequences) are more experimental in general. Also, I think it is more interesting to try to figure out _why_ Twilight is so popular than it is to slag it off for being bad writing. We know that; and bad writing has a long history of success. But Meyer clearly taps a vein that has meaning to a lot of people. And if you really want to go down a disturbing road like that, try to figure out why Shades of Grey (?) is getting all the attention it is. That makes Meyer look like mutha****ing Hemingway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tenthreeleader Posted May 27, 2012 Share Posted May 27, 2012 For the record, Hemingway and John Steinbeck are two of my least favorite authors of all time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peacemaker7 Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 I love John Steinbeck! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tenthreeleader Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 Read The Grapes of Wrath. It's one long sentence. Ugh, ugh, UGH. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makonnen Posted May 28, 2012 Author Share Posted May 28, 2012 Yeah, 10-3 is sort of allergic to long sentences let alone long paragraphs made from long sentences ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peacemaker7 Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 I love long sentences though. Mind you I also love short ones, and breaking all the rules. Because rules are meant to be broken. But only sometimes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tenthreeleader Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 A rule is made to be broken except when it isn't. Generally speaking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
STFCDP1990 Posted May 28, 2012 Share Posted May 28, 2012 One for Sorrow Two for Joy came out at 9/60. Not sure whether to be happy with myself or not!?! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilDave Posted May 29, 2012 Share Posted May 29, 2012 First of all, this is a great idea for a thread, and something I'll endeavour to contribute to even if I'm not posting at the moment. Secondly, that Flesch-Kincaid score is terrifying and a little confusing. I just bunged the last post of 'Tough At The Top' in there, and it's given me a score of 17/32. I understand that the footballing terminology is likely to toughen the text a little, but surely 17th Grade (not sure what that is in English, but it seems high!) is too high? Hell, I just inputted my most recent blog post, and hit 18/28! My question then is this: is my word that difficult to read? I know I'm guilty of unnecessary amounts of sub-clauses and comma abuse, but am I in fact asking too much of my readers? I ask for two reasons: firstly and most obviously to improve my writing, secondly because I have something in the long-term pipeline for FMS, and would hate it to get passed over for complexity of all things... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tenthreeleader Posted May 29, 2012 Share Posted May 29, 2012 There are twelve grades in American pre-university schooling. A grade of 17 would therefore be considered collegiate post-graduate work, just short of Masters level (which is four-year university plus two years). So, great job writing over everyone's head, man Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilDave Posted May 29, 2012 Share Posted May 29, 2012 Thanks for clearing that up tenthree, although it does rather confirm what I'd suspected it meant. Hmmm. Edit: Just stuck your first two sentences in out of curiosity. 15/14 makes me feel a little better about myself Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tenthreeleader Posted May 29, 2012 Share Posted May 29, 2012 LOL .. well played, sir Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peacemaker7 Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 I expect that if we are writing for the average member of this forum, barring BenArsenal , then we are ok with grade 14 + However if we are aiming at the level of GQ intelligence its about grade 3 we need. And your LOL .. well played, sir comes out at -3, 120 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eastley Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Hey Guys.. So I started a story, but did it via recorded video, posted on you tube and then here for you all to see. I re-read the rules, never thought it would get approved, so I removed the Video from your tube. The thread, 2 days later got approved, can I get clarification on this?? Before I even think of starting again? Basically, I just record what I do in FM, go through my team, my Idea's, tactics and so on.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark wilson27 Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Hey Guys..So I started a story, but did it via recorded video, posted on you tube and then here for you all to see. I re-read the rules, never thought it would get approved, so I removed the Video from your tube. The thread, 2 days later got approved, can I get clarification on this?? Before I even think of starting again? Basically, I just record what I do in FM, go through my team, my Idea's, tactics and so on.. Bet thing you could do is have a look at the awards link and archive link to see the sort of stories that have been written here Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tenthreeleader Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Hey Guys..So I started a story, but did it via recorded video, posted on you tube and then here for you all to see. I re-read the rules, never thought it would get approved, so I removed the Video from your tube. The thread, 2 days later got approved, can I get clarification on this?? Before I even think of starting again? Basically, I just record what I do in FM, go through my team, my Idea's, tactics and so on.. The house rules are pretty clear. You need an accompanying story. I missed the new thread, which is why it took two days to get approved. FMS is on post-moderation due to past issues we've had with alias posters, which is why it didn't show up right away. You're welcome to post links to video (not imbedded video) provided there is an accompanying story. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makonnen Posted June 2, 2012 Author Share Posted June 2, 2012 If there is anyone here who has read Forze La Panda and the earlier incarnation of Terry Langford in South Africa (or, anyone willing to go do so), I have some questions. * What are the strong points of the character? * What is your sense of Leti? * What would make the character more compelling? * What is weak in the characterization? Terry's story has some of my favorite moments of writing, but I don't know how it coheres. I think it has been the most challenging of the 5m1w stories, not least of all because of his continued lack of success. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilDave Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 If I may Makonnen, I think the issue you may be having with Terry is that his lack of success is what defines him at times - the struggle and despair associated with the poor teams is what's developing his characteristics. Personally I'm enjoying seeing that, but I think part of the reason you may be struggling with the character is his ever-changing relationship with Leti. The distance and awkwardness at first felt incredibly real, and now they're together that's evaporating and one of his key features is on the wane. Again, not a criticism as much as a logical development. To me Leti reads like the anti-Bones, which makes for great contrast and brings them both through nicely. That said, I get the impression that family issues and constant moving are going to take their toll despite outer strength, which makes for an intriguing read. Effectively I see her as a relatively 'soft' character, but not one who is so needy that she won't draw her lines in the sand. I think the challenge is key to making it work, and you're certainly right in that some of the passages are your best, particularly the long-distance conversations and everything associated. David has his dreams and youngsters in Haiti, Levi has the Julian/Bones conundrum and a promising young team, Danyil has his hidden relationship and a high-pressure job, Tadesse struggles with dominance and player sales - Terry's conflicts are more fluid, so writing them will be harder. From a personal point of view, his struggles make compelling reading, but I'd like to see a little more of the internal process - we know how everything fits with regards to him and Leti, but not always of Terry Langford, barring the (increasingly regular) occasions when he turns to drink. Description is your forte in my opinion. Apologies if that's somewhat cluttered feedback, do let me know if I can clarify anything. Hope that helps! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makonnen Posted June 4, 2012 Author Share Posted June 4, 2012 That is pretty amazing feedback. I can't say how appreciated it is and how much it helps motivate me to keep working on 5m1w. I think I got worried that the vaguely coherent internal narratives of Terry would get boring for readers. And, I think, for a while I struggled quite a bit with how to differentiate David, Terry, and Levi as characters (Danyil was always easier and Tadesse has sort of faded away as that story became less fictionalized). But I think that I have a better handle on that now, so hopefully St. Louis will give a chance for Terry to be pulled back to the forefront. Again, many many thanks ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WLKRAS Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 Ha, I just put an article I'd written as part of my new story into that calculator and it came back with 15th grade and readability 34. Problem was, that article was supposed to be from The Sun... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenArsenal Posted August 16, 2012 Share Posted August 16, 2012 I should try with some of my professional work... EDIT: I tried 3 of my articles, and they were all Grade 14, and reading ease scores in the 30s and 40s. I guess writing about cars can be a bit technical, but they're not that difficult to understand... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tenthreeleader Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 I guess writing about cars can be a bit technical, but they're not that difficult to understand... Unless Jeremy Clarkson is talking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul.leeds Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Hi everyone. Basically I need advise and I apologise if this is elsewere on the forums. I'm Leeds United and have start writing a story about my FM13 Career. Basically I've currently written about my first season completely but what I want to know, is because my story is about my results and transfers etc I have elaborated on it and ended up writing 8,000 words about my season, with bits thrown in etc etc. How much shall I post at a time is my question, I don't want people to start reading and get bored because there's too much to read at once, but on the other hand I don't want you readers catching me up and I need to write quicker to keep up (Obviously I realise this could be a terrible story and no-one like it anyway haha hope not) Should I post daily, weekly? Wait for people to request more? i don't know if someone can help. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tenthreeleader Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Welcome to FMS. I'm sure you'll find people who can help you with those sorts of decisions, but I'm moving this thread to the Writer's Feedback thread, which is its proper location. Good to see you have a reserve built up! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul.leeds Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Thanks for forwarding the post here thethreeleader. I do have a reserve, but like I said I don't want people catching my writing up and start rushing through it, as I write at work (ooops) and play the game at home haha. Like I said, if anyone knows the ideal ammount you would like to read at one time, it would be great Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jibby123 Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 I don't know (and not really care so much) how often or who reads what I write, I write for myself mainly, but tenthreeleader gave me a bit of advice once that I didn't get at the time, but see his point now..... ....I was writing 2-3 posts per day which, as he pointed out, makes it a far more confusing for anyone who might be following to check what has been updated (without checking the time stamp...and who does that?? ). So from a reader's point of view on the stories I do follow here I would say anymore than at most 1 post per day can make it harder to follow. That's assuming regulars check daily or every 2-3 days, though I accept many won't check that often. If you didn't have a backlog to upload, alongside what I said ^^ up there, I'd advise to another writer simply do what you feel comfortable as a schedule of updates, or in crude terms "do whatever you want" because if you don't enjoy writing it a) you will stop and b) other's probably won't enjoy it either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenArsenal Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 What Jibby said. ^ I think Mark Wilson, who writes similarly as you, goes well ahead with his game and writing, leaving him with quite an archive with which he can post at his own will. Frankly, if your story is good, nobody will get bored. So take your time with it. If you do have a good amount of writing stacked up, one post a day would be sufficient. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chesterfan2 Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 Posting can, as Jibby says, seem too frequent to us readers, but I think you have to go a long way the other way, i.e. something like one post every month perhaps, before readers will lose interest of a good story. I think, Paul, it's very useful to recognise that no one here will monitor how often you post. For example when I log onto the site I always look to see if my favourite stories have been updated. I couldn't tell you how often tenthreeleader posts to 'Ace of Spades', or how often Gav posts to 'Tina's Super Saints' (both fabulous stories by the way). I enjoy reading new posts when they come available. My advice would be find a rate of writing and posting you feel comfortable with. if you enjoy writing it, then you can be fairly sure that there will be people on this board that will enjoy reading it. Good luck, and I'm looking forward to read it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark wilson27 Posted January 24, 2013 Share Posted January 24, 2013 All the stories I have on the forum at the moment have concluded as a save on the game and I am writing from notes. I try and post at least once a day but sometime I can get a little bogged down so I take a break for around a week. My advice is write at a pace that you feel comfortable with. People might not comment on every post you do but they will read. If you enjoy your writing it will show Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tenthreeleader Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Thanks for forwarding the post here thethreeleader.I do have a reserve, but like I said I don't want people catching my writing up and start rushing through it, as I write at work (ooops) and play the game at home haha. Like I said, if anyone knows the ideal ammount you would like to read at one time, it would be great You're welcome. Happy to have you here and to have this discussion. In my own case I have found that slow and steady wins the race. I will post every few days and allow people to catch me up, and comment if they wish to do so, and then move on to the next. It should be noted that it can take a bit of time to build a following but once you do, the rules can change. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul.leeds Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Thanks to everyone who has replied. It has been a great help. I write from notes I make while playing the game when I get spare time at work which recently has been quite alot, so I have got a fair bit to post. I just didn't want to post alot at once and people be scared away from the story with the ammount they had to read straight away. I'll start to post my story over the weekend and hope that all, some or even just one of you likes it haha. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Martin Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Do any writers on here play the game in full screen mode? And if so, do you have any tips or suggestions when it comes to note taking during a match, important events in the save game etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offspring8 Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I play full screen and also have notepad running in the background. When something interesting happens in-game, I press alt+tab and record it on notepad and then I use them notes to write up the actual story and add flesh to the whole thing - that's my favourite method, but different stuff works for different people Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WLKRAS Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 *geekmode on* I have my game running on full screen, but I usually play on my desktop and have my laptop alongside it to write on. (Often have FM running windowed on the laptop as well lol) *geekmode off* Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jibby123 Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I am first to admit my story has been too much story, and not enough football manager, but what I've done up to now (and will do moreso in future) is just 'play' a save without thinking at any story, because the save is as much a framework as it is the actual story for the way I've done it (not everybody's cup of tea mind you). My story save is on FM12, so it doesn't get played much these days but am quite a bit further ahead in-game than I am in-story. That doesn't mean my story will make it as far as my save has though. I have and will go back and write what happened in to my story after looking at the matches, incidents, goalscorers, transfers and injuries the game threw up as and when they're needed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HorusFM Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 I never play FM fullscreen. I just can't sit and JUST play FM, I have to be doing something else at the same time. Plus I rock three monitors so I don't really need to. It makes it way easier to write and play if you don't need to alt tab out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tenthreeleader Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Do any writers on here play the game in full screen mode? And if so, do you have any tips or suggestions when it comes to note taking during a match, important events in the save game etc. I do. I play and write on my laptop. I also listen to my iTunes, which tends to tax my machine a bit, but there you are I'll play a match, alt-tab to my notes page (which is at the end of my copy in whatever story I'm writing) and write general thoughts but most importantly my manager's emotions, in character. Then when the time comes to write the match I will reconstruct events through the 'report' function. Game events can be reconstructed when I write a match through checking results from various leagues. The exception to this is that I will take notes on my news feeds between matches, to get a hint of the flavor of other parts of my save. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tenthreeleader Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 I am first to admit my story has been too much story, and not enough football manager There are two schools of thoughts about this, Jibby. You can write match reports (which I'm doing in "Fleetwood Mac") and you can write story (every other story I've done). Rat Pack had almost 70 pages of copy in MS Word before I played Reading's first friendly. Sometimes I want to play FM. That's the beauty of Classic Mode in FM13. Sometimes I want to write, which is why at present, after almost four years in my save, I am exactly four matches ahead of where I'm writing in Rat Pack. But you're writing. That's what matters. Form and function are yours to decide. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HorusFM Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 I use three monitors so I play windowed, but maximized on the window, and have word on another monitor. But that is simply because of my set-up. I've never played FM in fullscreen, and wouldn't do so with just one monitor either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenArsenal Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Like all above have said, do whatever works for you. I play FM without planning to do a story in mind. Only if something interesting happens then I might go back and plan a story around it. From there it's just taking down details of past events and weaving them into a story in MS Word. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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