Back To Basics: Sweepers ?

[Pretended]

Now that the defensive lines are even more fragile than ever commonly opposed by rivals utilizing inside forwards, I've come to think of reverting back to old ways to counter such approach.

Do any of you use sweepers/liberos and have you attained any success with'em ?

[Seule]

Depends on what you would call success really. I've been playing with a lot of tactical things lately, mostly because I've lost interest in my long term save. I've been playing around with a 5-3-2 the past few days using a libero and two wing backs. Basically the design is to use the libero as a sweeper when we're back in our own half and as a DM when we're in attack, sitting in front of the d-line cleaning up anything that spits out of the box and keeping the pressure on. In that way I would say it's moderately successful, have a plethora of other problems with the tactic that I need to work through but none are really related to the sweeper part.

I guess the real question is, what do you want out of a sweeper? If it's sitting behind the d-line and letting the CB's go aggressively at the opposition attack, then yes, i think you can be effective with it. If you're looking for the marauding libero that rips a team apart from the back, then I think you'll have some work to do.

[Pretended]

Success is defined in the OP, pal, as you may have missed it.

Stopping the fracturing of the defensive line by inside forwards.

[tommonufc]

Do any of you use sweepers/liberos and have you attained any success with'em ?

Me

Currently using three of them, as a wide back three. Working fantastically, so much more mobile in terms of offensive movement than a regular back three I've found to be.

[Warrenwwr]

i always try to make a tactic using libero. but i guess its never worked out like i hoped. maybe i never got the right mix of player + tactics for it.

[Camb0dia]

Ive used a sweeper in either a 3-3-2-2 or a 3-3-1-3 formation and the key is to play deep, even if you should be dominating the play, having a deep line is important otherwise balls played behind will get you. It's also important to define the role, as a sweeper he really is just a deeper CB-cover, making it important you don't play two other cover defenders in front of him. With libero, he will attack a lot more and need to be skilled (passing, decisions, creativity?). However, there is a bigger problem with playing against inside forwards. Your three back will be marking one guy and your wingbacks (or widemidfielders) will be pushed back or there will be too much room for them to start from.

[ro88o]

I've looked at using a sweeper behind two centre backs several times but always seem to end up reverting to playing a deep midfielder

instead of the sweeper and leaving my defensive line fairly deep, thus my defensive midfielder mopping anything up between the midfield

and defence. However i am interested in whether people attempt to re train a player with appropriate stats to play in the libero/sweeper

position or whether you would sign the appropriate player, provided your starting team doesn't have the player you need for the position?

[JOSEPH!]

Can't recommend this thread enough. I could try and regurgitate the information SFraser excellently writes about but there is no point as I can't put it better than he does - have a look at this fantastic, well informed and meaty thread on variants of the 4-5-1 and, in particular relation to your point, the use of the old style sweeper and the modern 'sweeper':

Tactical Analysis of the 4-5-1 Variants

Talks about the use of the sweeper, how that has developed from past tactical frameworks and how to employ the modern day 'sweeper' which SFraser suggests is actually the DM. Have a read, it is well worth it.

[Cleon]

Can't recommend this thread enough. I could try and regurgitate the information SFraser excellently writes about but there is no point as I can't put it better than he does - have a look at this fantastic, well informed and meaty thread on variants of the 4-5-1 and, in particular relation to your point, the use of the old style sweeper and the modern 'sweeper':

Tactical Analysis of the 4-5-1 Variants

Talks about the use of the sweeper, how that has developed from past tactical frameworks and how to employ the modern day 'sweeper' which SFraser suggests is actually the DM. Have a read, it is well worth it.

Busquets

[JOSEPH!]

Busquets

Spot on! Ha

[Pretended]

A Busquets-quality DM with positioning, work rate and tackling coupled with decent physical attributes is hard to come by. Also him chasing an inside forwards causes the belly of the team to end up defenseless.

[Cleon]

A Busquets-quality DM with positioning, work rate and tackling coupled with decent physical attributes is hard to come by. Also him chasing an inside forwards causes the belly of the team to end up defenseless.

There are loads of players on FM who can play the Busquets role.

Why would your DMC be chasing the inside forwards? Surely that should be the job of your fullbacks.........

The DMC's job is to ease the workload of the centrebacks.

If you used a modern day sweeper/Lib as the DMC spot this is the best way of achieveing it on FM12 compared to using a standard sweeper/lib due to ME restrictions.

[JOSEPH!]

There are loads of players on FM who can play the Busquets role.

Why would your DMC be chasing the inside forwards? Surely that should be the job of your fullbacks.........

The DMC's job is to ease the workload of the centrebacks.

If you used a modern day sweeper/Lib as the DMC spot this is the best way of achieveing it on FM12 compared to using a standard sweeper/lib due to ME restrictions.

Exactly right. The positioning of the DMC is vital in modern day football and the evolution of the many variants of the 4-5-1. One of many advantages of this defensive triangle Cleon speaks about (two CBs one DM) is the ability to effectively employ the offside trap. With a sweeper this becomes inherently difficult. With inside forwards becoming more and more in vogue, thanks in partly due to the likes of Wenger's Henry and Ferguson's Ronaldo, in England employing an effective offside is key as pace and good movement is in abundance from attackers. Aside from this, having the DM sat in front of the CBs allows play to be taken from the more dangerous central position to the flanks where danger is not immediately imminent. Again this is all taken from SFraser's article. He explains all of this much better than I can.

[Pretended]

Offside trap ?

How likely is it that you could employ offside trap in all teams you manage -ranging from a Segunda Liga competitor to a relegation battling Turkish Super League contender ?

I mean it's hard to get players, at all levels, with enough mental and physical quality to effectively employ it, rather than making yourself even more vulnerable to one-on-one situations.

I've tried offside trap a couple of times and was not really succesful. It's the last thing in mind now bearing the fact in mind that FM database is full of lightning-paced and agile wingers cutting in.

[Kawee]

If you used a modern day sweeper/Lib as the DMC spot this is the best way of achieveing it on FM12 compared to using a standard sweeper/lib due to ME restrictions.

Truth, and a real tragedy. It's not possible to create a proper libero in the current ME.

The sweeper, regardless of instruction, never push forward to operate like a defensive midfielder, as a libero should.

The DM will also never mop up through balls behind the defensive line like a sweeper should.

[ro88o]

I commonly arrange my teams on fm on the philosophy 'attack is the best form of defence'. Despite wanting to experiment

with a sweeper, using one when employing this type of system would be counter productive as i would probably have three

players at the back doing pretty much nothing when my team is attacking (which is the reason i refuse to play with three

center backs). By employing the DMC you have a player who can act as the third centre back when your team are constantly

on the back foot, but you also have a player who is able to push on ahead of the defence and close down any attacking

player before he enters a goal threatening position.

You dont necessarily have to employ the offside trap to catch the opposition offside do you? I dont play with the offside trap

purely because it gives my defenders something else to think about. i would rather them play their natural game and not worry

about the tactical element of defending, and if the opposition does get caught offside (which can happen quite frequently)

its a bonus. Besides, surely any attacker is going to be wary that a team is playing the offside trap and try to beat it.

[Warrenwwr]

anyone found the next matthias sammer as yet ? lets not discount the ME in anger. the right mix of player (attributes + ppm etc) tactic can possibly do it. for now im still looking for a decent enough player for this job. i'm training a youth atm. he makes a few runs, even got a goal from long range already, but generally lacks the skills. im tweaking the tactic also.

and i do not want a DMC to play like the libero. isnt that like a box to box midfielder?

current formation i use is:

.......amc.....T......amc

......... dlp........dlp

............... A

wb.............. dc......fb

.........L

[Cleon]

anyone found the next matthias sammer as yet ? lets not discount the ME in anger. the right mix of player (attributes + ppm etc) tactic can possibly do it. for now im still looking for a decent enough player for this job. i'm training a youth atm. he makes a few runs, even got a goal from long range already, but generally lacks the skills. im tweaking the tactic also.

and i do not want a DMC to play like the libero. isnt that like a box to box midfielder?

current formation i use is:

.......amc.....T......amc

......... dlp........dlp

............... A

wb.............. dc......fb

.........L

It's not dismissing the ME in anger, its dismissing it because we know its limited and not possible to get the sweeper/libero working how it should because the ME is to restrictive. It's not anger its a fact. No matter how hard you try you'll never get them playing how they should.

[Warrenwwr]

yea my sweeper atm begins to make a run then backs off for some reason. for now im putting it down to some mental attributes. he also is content to pass to the storming WB then stay back rather than exploit the middle (maybe play a one two pass or something) while moving forward.

but he is sweeping up alot of drilled crosses and tru balls.

[JOSEPH!]

Offside trap ?

How likely is it that you could employ offside trap in all teams you manage -ranging from a Segunda Liga competitor to a relegation battling Turkish Super League contender ?

I mean it's hard to get players, at all levels, with enough mental and physical quality to effectively employ it, rather than making yourself even more vulnerable to one-on-one situations.

I've tried offside trap a couple of times and was not really succesful. It's the last thing in mind now bearing the fact in mind that FM database is full of lightning-paced and agile wingers cutting in.

I wasn't necessarily talking about FM. It is a fact that while the DC-SW-DC had its advantages it was limited in many respects - one being effectively employing the offside trap. The whole point of the Sweeper was, while the two centre backs man marked the opposition forwards, to watch any free wide play and mop it up if you like. Although playing the offside trap in FM is risky, it is also risky IRL. When is it not risky to leave a player free while the defensive line pushes up, potentially giving them acres of space?

Your point about the range of teams is fairly irrelevant. If an extremely intelligent back line in a top European club tried to employ it they would employ it better than a relegation battling Turkish Super League side who, obviously, wouldn't be as football intelligent. Of course it is relative, you'd assume that the top European club would be up against smarter, more aware and more skillful attackers than the Turkish side.

The use of a sweeper as well invites passing from the more dangerous central positions in the pitch. With a DM it pushes play wide. With tactics that opposition managers use in FM using a Sweeper, in all honesty, would be foolish even if you could employ it properly which, from what I've read here, the ME restricts. It's fairly common for an AM to be used and for IFs to put pressure on the channels and using a Sweeper would only invite dangerous passing from the AM to the IFs.

It is an obsolete position nowadays.