FM13 The New Match Engine and Match-Day Experience

[dribbler]

Do you enjoy the game at all?

Course I do (as I said before). Some parts of the game are cleverly designed and help make it fun to play. I'm putting a few of my complaints pretty strongly on this thread but what's the harm in being forthright? I also said that FM12 is better than FM10 so I've no doubt that there will be gradual improvements anyway without people like me moaning.

But there's plenty of unnecessary torture we're being subjected to in my opinion. There are a great many things that could be improved cheaply too. Speeling mishtaks, grammatical errors, messages that make no sense, loads of pointless general hassle factor...basically any number of minor irritations that are sitting in the game because nobody can be arsed to sort them out.

Maybe I'll do my "101 things that **** me off" post when the demo comes out?

[Alekos]

I am really afraid that there is not any improvement to the AI which is the MOST BASIC part of the game..Of course we havent heard any news about this yet but in my opinion if it has been improved it should have been the first to announce and not the Classic mode..Seems with those new features the company tries to attract more new customers which means more money to them(no problem with that)but all we, the loyal FM fans so many years that we ask for something which in my opinion is the most important aspect of the game, the AI, seems that is left behind..Hope they will prove me wrong and I will be the first that will come back here with an apology.Looking forward for this week's blogs with something about the AI(at least I hope so)...

[dribbler]

I am really afraid that there is not any improvement to the AI which is the MOST BASIC part of the game..Of course we havent heard any news about this yet but in my opinion if it has been improved it should have been the first to announce and not the Classic mode..Seems with those new features the company tries to attract more new customers which means more money to them(no problem with that)but all we, the loyal FM fans so many years that we ask for something which in my opinion is the most important aspect of the game, the AI, seems that is left behind..Hope they will prove me wrong and I will be the first that will come back here with an apology.Looking forward for this week's blogs with something about the AI(at least I hope so)...

Agree with this.

I've no idea how much or how little money SI/Sega make off this game of course but more customers = more money whether they spend some of it on development or not. The thing is there are millions of potential new customers every year as well as all the potential customers who have already been alienated. The world isn't short of football fans who spend hours every week on their computers after all.

So if you ask me it's one thing for SI to produce their "hard-sell" videos which are a necessary part of the drive to attract new customers. But they also need to produce a game that's fun to play for the average Joe so that their new customers don't abandon the game after a few hours of frustration. Here they are plain failing in my opinion for the reasons I've already banged on about. These forums are hardly short of frustrated newbies slagging off the game after all.

I don't think people who play the game regularly realise how steep the learning curve is for newbies. I had many hundreds of seasons playing Championship Manager and Football Manager under my belt when I came back to the game FM10 after a few years break. It was torture to work out how to navigate the various screens and menu options. This despite the fact that I'd dabbled with various demos over the years. And it was difficult (but fun) to work out how to play the game to a decent level. I've also been teaching my 17 year-old nephew (who is brainy) to play and it's obvious to me how tough it is for him to understand it too.

I sympathise and agree with the people who want the match engine to be improved. But this isn't the biggest problem with the game as it stands today. I want a challenging game that's easier to play so that I'll enjoy playing it more. And I'm certain that this would pay off for SI too and hopeful that extra revenues could then be used for the match engine.

[psycho1970]

After reading the above post (53), I think SI Games have missed a trick. If they'd released FMC as a separate game for say £19.99 and then put in a discount code to use on steam ie £10 off or even a 50% discount for the full game this would have netted them a considerable income IMO.

Releasing FMC within the full version whilst saying/doing nothing to quell long term players fears on where this series is heading has only done them harm for the long term.

Now before the SI Games can do no wrong brigade start shooting me down let me explain, I'm not against FMC in fact I think its a good idea and as a database editor could come in handy for testing new leagues etc if custom databases are able to be played via FMC (which I doubt, but we'll have to wait and see). The main worry across the board I think is that by releasing it with the main game is that the 2 modes will at some point in future versions become merged especially regarding DLC content and that would almost mean the end of custom databases, graphics, and possibly tactics which would at the end of the day destroy FM communities.

Now the SIGCDWB can start shooting.

[thegr8anand]

I have pre-ordered it already but as always I hope SI do improve the core flaws and not just milk out fans like me

[mrdorf]

Ever got a new job and bought a player from your old club? This has always been impossible for me even when I'm on the favored person list and the new club is much bigger than the old one. Brendan Rodgers got Joe Allen but I'm managing Brighton and just got offered Man Utd but I know none of my players would move with me. On the plus side they had a mass exodus of staff and I got Brian McClair

I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm think out loud, but why would none of your players sign from Brighton to Man Utd? It's a bigger step from them. Interesting.

[Smurf]

After reading the above post (53), I think SI Games have missed a trick. If they'd released FMC as a separate game for say £19.99 and then put in a discount code to use on steam ie £10 off or even a 50% discount for the full game this would have netted them a considerable income IMO.

I'm sure their marketing department and cost analysis showed that releasing in the one game was a better way of going forward. I'm certain they thought about releasing it separately and did their job correct in making the decision to make it part of the game.

Releasing FMC within the full version whilst saying/doing nothing to quell long term players fears on where this series is heading has only done them harm for the long term.

The only fears are coming from the people that don't read the press releases or watch the videos and understand. They have said in numerous blogs that the FMC and the DLC is only for the Challenge Modes, and the main game will never be affected.

The only time that DLC in the main game has been talked about is with people on these forums, and other forums, that didn't bother watching the videos properly or read the blogs.

Now before the SI Games can do no wrong brigade start shooting me down let me explain, I'm not against FMC in fact I think its a good idea and as a database editor could come in handy for testing new leagues etc if custom databases are able to be played via FMC (which I doubt, but we'll have to wait and see). The main worry across the board I think is that by releasing it with the main game is that the 2 modes will at some point in future versions become merged especially regarding DLC content and that would almost mean the end of custom databases, graphics, and possibly tactics which would at the end of the day destroy FM communities.

The 2 modes will never merge. The guys who make Football Manager, starting with Miles and Paul C, love the game way too much to start ruining it with DLC in the main mode.

The only reason that the new mode is in the game is because they have had success with it on the Football Manager Handheld version, and they see a market for it in the main game too.

To be honest, it will probably see a few new sales from people that only play Football Manager Handheld, and it's attractive to a lot of people that like to play games where you have in-game purchases.

I don't particularly like paying for things in-game, and never will. I have never purchased and App for my phone, and I never will. That's just me.

But there are plenty of people who this appeals to. And good luck to them. I hope they enjoy the new gaming mode.

Now the SIGCDWB can start shooting.

Bullseye.

[spankie]

After reading the above post (53), I think SI Games have missed a trick. If they'd released FMC as a separate game for say £19.99 and then put in a discount code to use on steam ie £10 off or even a 50% discount for the full game this would have netted them a considerable income IMO.

Releasing FMC within the full version whilst saying/doing nothing to quell long term players fears on where this series is heading has only done them harm for the long term.

Now before the SI Games can do no wrong brigade start shooting me down let me explain, I'm not against FMC in fact I think its a good idea and as a database editor could come in handy for testing new leagues etc if custom databases are able to be played via FMC (which I doubt, but we'll have to wait and see). The main worry across the board I think is that by releasing it with the main game is that the 2 modes will at some point in future versions become merged especially regarding DLC content and that would almost mean the end of custom databases, graphics, and possibly tactics which would at the end of the day destroy FM communities.

Now the SIGCDWB can start shooting.

OK, take aim and fire!

Do you really think SI are daft enough to ruin the Career mode by stopping us from doing what we want with it in regards to edited databases, graphics and tactics?

If they do that then their sales would drop. SI and FM have always allowed freedom and a fair number of people who did custom stuff like databases and graphics now work for SI.

Those will be allowed in FMC. There is no database difference between the 2 modes and the UI is identical (except on the parts that have been removed or automated in FMC to make it quicker)

BTW SI have previously stated that FMC and Career will not be combined and DLC will not be for Career, only FMC and Challenge. There may be more unlockables and downloadable challenges if they prove popular.

The whole point in SI creating FMC and Challenges is so that they can have a "pure" mode that people can play without using DLC or unlockables. SI have said that if FMC wasn't in the game then unlockables and DLC challenges wouldn't have been made.

[Rashidi]

Just had a quick read, not tested it myself, but I've read most of SFraser's stuff so if he believes it possible with the right instructions, then I'd accept that. But i think PaulC is saying its not as fluid as it should be, and from my personal experience i agree.

erm i dont have a problem at all getting my DMC drop back and play a lotta passes with my centre halves..in fact its all in the setup. Personally the only thing that isnt perfectly fluid is to get them to drop and form a square 3 backline if needed when they lose possession, that would be the only thing that needs looking at, but imho its really minor. What i really like about the engine is how players move to take up positions made vacant by players who roam which was my mine gripe in previous engines. The only thing that imho hasnt really changed is the number of animations for mistakes made by players. Ever since the introduction of the 3d engine, people expect a logical animation to explain the loss of possession. While we have more goal celeb animations, its the "mistake" animations that we need more of. However, once again I dont think this is a game breaker. Having a "physics" engine for game animations does increase the possbility that these kinda animations get incorporated into the game.

I came back from an 8 year break, daunted at first at what seemed like a lot of options pre match. but there are so many things you can do to simplify it. I elect to trust my training focus needs to ass man recommendations, whilst i focus on preparing my team tactically for games. I have to admit its more immersive and a lot more fun. There was one big critique i had in the past which was the AIs inability to match my changes in a game, however, tbh if i wanted that i would play against a human opponent. What was the biggest weakness for me was the AIs lack of ambition or financial planning in previous versions, for FM13 thats where my focus will be cos i want the game t be engaging. For me now i still enjoy the game for all its minor flaws, it just gives me more room to roam my imagination in.

[psycho1970]

The only fears are coming from the people that don't read the press releases or watch the videos and understand. They have said in numerous blogs that the FMC and the DLC is only for the Challenge Modes, and the main game will never be affected.

The only time that DLC in the main game has been talked about is with people on these forums, and other forums, that didn't bother watching the videos properly or read the blogs.

I've watched the video blogs and to be honest so far it looks like their just doing a paint job on FM12 with most of the time going into FMC, PaulC on this site has already said they haven't tactical system for FM13, this surely is a fundamental part of the game and one that people have been crying out about being fixed. And with the DLC topic they've never said never, just it wont affect this years career mode.

The 2 modes will never merge. The guys who make Football Manager, starting with Miles and Paul C, love the game way too much to start ruining it with DLC in the main mode.

Dont bet on it, if this years sales of DLC are good then you can be rest assured DLC will be rolled out to career mode

The only reason that the new mode is in the game is because they have had success with it on the Football Manager Handheld version, and they see a market for it in the main game too.

To be honest, it will probably see a few new sales from people that only play Football Manager Handheld, and it's attractive to a lot of people that like to play games where you have in-game purchases.

I don't particularly like paying for things in-game, and never will. I have never purchased and App for my phone, and I never will. That's just me.

But there are plenty of people who this appeals to. And good luck to them. I hope they enjoy the new gaming mode.

As I said I'm not against FMC, just the way there going about it, and I'm hoping that with DLC regarding challenges they adopt the Gran Turismo ethics and release them for free

Bullseye.

Not even close

Do you really think SI are daft enough to ruin the Career mode by stopping us from doing what we want with it in regards to edited databases, graphics and tactics?

Yes as stated above if sales are good then this will be the likely path their take, the people on the communties are only a small percentage of their customers(probably not even 10%) they wont care what we think if the sales of DLC outweigh the ammount of sales that they would lose by a smaller percentage of these customers not buying the game.

Those will be allowed in FMC. There is no database difference between the 2 modes and the UI is identical (except on the parts that have been removed or automated in FMC to make it quicker)

If they plan to charge for DLC, it wouldn't make sense for edited databases to be workable for FMC, else people will be able to create their own challenges and release for free to the community thus affecting SI games extra income.

Hopefully this weeks video blogs will enlighten us all a little bit more on FMC and what else has been done to enhance our gameplay with the career mode and you never know someone from SI Games might pop up on the forum and clear up a few of our worries if indeed they do care what the community think.

[Smurf]

I've watched the video blogs and to be honest so far it looks like their just doing a paint job on FM12 with most of the time going into FMC, PaulC on this site has already said they haven't tactical system for FM13, this surely is a fundamental part of the game and one that people have been crying out about being fixed. And with the DLC topic they've never said never, just it wont affect this years career mode.

Earlier on Paul C mentioned that they are working on the tactical side of the game too. Just hasn't been anything changed for FM13 - but it will be in FM14. Some changes take more than 1 year to complete. They're not done on yearly cycles. Some features and fixes can take 2 or 3 years to update/finish.

Dont bet on it, if this years sales of DLC are good then you can be rest assured DLC will be rolled out to career mode

Then why did you even bother asking if you don't want to believe what is being told you?

It won't happen in career mode - ever.

As I said I'm not against FMC, just the way there going about it, and I'm hoping that with DLC regarding challenges they adopt the Gran Turismo ethics and release them for free

What way are they going about it that is so upsetting to you?

The DLC is available for the people that want to buy it. If you don't want to buy them they are unlocked in the game without having you to purchase anything at all.

DLC is unlocked over time within the game. No purchase necessary.

Yes as stated above if sales are good then this will be the likely path their take, the people on the communties are only a small percentage of their customers(probably not even 10%) they wont care what we think if the sales of DLC outweigh the ammount of sales that they would lose by a smaller percentage of these customers not buying the game.

It will not be the path they will take. Ever. They said it won't. Again why ask if you are just going to make up your own answer.

Nobody but people who are the forum(s) are saying what you're saying. SI have never said this. You are making all that up. SI have said it won't happen in Career Mode.

If they plan to charge for DLC, it wouldn't make sense for edited databases to be workable for FMC, else people will be able to create their own challenges and release for free to the community thus affecting SI games extra income.

How? I'm sure they've thought about this a lot more indepthly than you have. I think they know their game and how it works.

And I'm sure it has no affect on income whatsoever. Again, this is just something you're making up that has basis in reality.

Hopefully this weeks video blogs will enlighten us all a little bit more on FMC and what else has been done to enhance our gameplay with the career mode and you never know someone from SI Games might pop up on the forum and clear up a few of our worries if indeed they do care what the community think.

SI have already said the things about Career and Challenge mode and allayed and fears about DLC coming into Career Mode. I don't see why they should repeat themselves.

The video blogs will be exciting. For sure. Just listened to Podcast #2 and some of the new features sound sweet, one that sounds great are "Training Camps" but Miles Didn't give too much information on it as there will be video on it soon.

I don't know you're not believing me about the Career mode will never have DLC. It will only be for the two new modes they have included, Career Mode will never have it.

[spankie]

If they plan to charge for DLC, it wouldn't make sense for edited databases to be workable for FMC, else people will be able to create their own challenges and release for free to the community thus affecting SI games extra income.

FMC is different from Challenge mode, they are the 2 new modes added on top of the original Career mode that we're all used to.

FMC has no challenges and it is just like the usual Career mode but with some things removed or automated to make it quicker for people with less time to spend on the game.

Challenge mode drops you in as manager of a team part way through the season (probably January) and you have to complete the challenge by the end of the season. After that the game probably stops.

FMC will almost certainly allow edited databases.

There is nothing stopping people from creating edited databases and they can almost certainly be used in for Career and FMC modes, without making changes to the database. I can't see SI changing that as it would double the work for the people compiling and testing the database.

[pigfacemonkeyman]

OK, take aim and fire!

Do you really think SI are daft enough to ruin the Career mode by stopping us from doing what we want with it in regards to edited databases, graphics and tactics?

If they do that then their sales would drop. SI and FM have always allowed freedom and a fair number of people who did custom stuff like databases and graphics now work for SI.

Those will be allowed in FMC. There is no database difference between the 2 modes and the UI is identical (except on the parts that have been removed or automated in FMC to make it quicker)

BTW SI have previously stated that FMC and Career will not be combined and DLC will not be for Career, only FMC and Challenge. There may be more unlockables and downloadable challenges if they prove popular.

The whole point in SI creating FMC and Challenges is so that they can have a "pure" mode that people can play without using DLC or unlockables. SI have said that if FMC wasn't in the game then unlockables and DLC challenges wouldn't have been made.

Maybe not, but have you considered that maybe SEGA see the potential for upping their income by restricting what the community can edit and charging for official addons?

[Rashidi]

I go away 8 years come back and we still get the same kinda people in GQ

[psycho1970]

@ Eugene Tyson

Can you supply a link where SI Games have said DLC wont be used for future FM Versions and as for making things up I can assure you I haven't, I admit my percentage is a guess but a calculated guess at that, let me explain -

How many Large FM Sites are there ? 2 or 3 that have over 100k members, the 2 biggest are this one and FM Base which last time I noticed had over 300K members (sites being worked on currently so cant tell you how many today), unfortunately you can no longer see how many members there are for SI Games forum but I remember looking in the past and FM Base had more so if your nice and say their close thats 600k members and the rest lag well behind. I've been trying to find the amount of sales for FM12 and the only source with a figure was "in excess of 7m" though I'm sure I've read before a previous version sold 12m (could be wrong) so my estimate of 10% is probably within a few percent of the true figure based on 12m sales.

[Smurf]

@ Eugene Tyson

Can you supply a link where SI Games have said DLC wont be used for future FM Versions and as for making things up I can assure you I haven't, I admit my percentage is a guess but a calculated guess at that, let me explain -

How many Large FM Sites are there ? 2 or 3 that have over 100k members, the 2 biggest are this one and FM Base which last time I noticed had over 300K members (sites being worked on currently so cant tell you how many today), unfortunately you can no longer see how many members there are for SI Games forum but I remember looking in the past and FM Base had more so if your nice and say their close thats 600k members and the rest lag well behind. I've been trying to find the amount of sales for FM12 and the only source with a figure was "in excess of 7m" though I'm sure I've read before a previous version sold 12m (could be wrong) so my estimate of 10% is probably within a few percent of the true figure based on 12m sales.

Yes as stated above if sales are good then this will be the likely path their take, the people on the communties are only a small percentage of their customers(probably not even 10%) they wont care what we think if the sales of DLC outweigh the ammount of sales that they would lose by a smaller percentage of these customers not buying the game.

Where did this figure of 10% come from? That is what is made up. Weird facts and figures being posted by people in relation to DLC and they have no idea what the actual figures are.

This is just one example of something that I think you've posted that is made up. I'm not having a go - you just don't know the figures, nor do you know SI's marketing plan with Sega.

You even say yourself it's a calculated guess - how can you guess a calculation? By making up figures because you don't have access to them.

If you check the Steam website you see the amount of current players playing Football Manager at that exact time, any time I check it it's between 25k and 50k players roughly

25,949 Currently Playing

Peaked today 58,992

I'll have a look for a link to the video or the blog where I heard/read Miles say this and the Football Manager original Career Mode will not have DLC

[Smurf]

Oh and current SI forum members

Sports Interactive Community StatisticsSports Interactive Community Statistics

Threads

290,423

Posts

7,953,117

Members

156,100

[Smurf]

Sales

Total Units

North America: 0.02m 1.2%

+ Europe: 1.04m 78.9%

+ Rest of the World: 0.26m 19.8%

= Global 1.31m

So there's 1.31m sales of FM12, apparently

Sorry if that info is incorrect - I don't have time to check it out - perhaps it's just for that site. I don't know

http://www.vgchartz.com/game/57526/football-manager-2012/

[tarbanrael]

Unfortunately, I tend to agree with Psycho1970 (no offence!). While sure, this year DLCs are only for the FMC, who is to say if these are successful that they will not be deployed to the core career mode. The possibility seems remote now but it may very well happen (but then, the Earth may come to an end in 3 months time, in which case we won't really need to worry about it too much ).

Regarding the 900 changes, great number but what we really need is a match engine that does not allow for flaws to be exploited shamelessly. Interesting to see whether the corner scoring trick, the injuries bug will re-surface (before being ironed out in later patches) along with some of the OP's vary valid points.

[psycho1970]

Just found where I got the 12m figure from and found its the digital sales figure for all games sega released in the year 2011 within a FM2011 article so hands up my percentages were way off:o

[Smurf]

Whether you agree with Physco or not is not really the debate. I don't really mind that you think it will be deployed in the Career mode.

It just won't be. I don't really mind that you don't believe me. Time will tell and you'll find out when the game is released and in future releases.

[Smurf]

Regarding the 900 changes, great number but what we really need is a match engine that does not allow for flaws to be exploited shamelessly. Interesting to see whether the corner scoring trick, the injuries bug will re-surface (before being ironed out in later patches) along with some of the OP's vary valid points.

If you listen to the podcasts (there's a sticky at the top of the thread) they are going through some of the changes randomly.

Some changes are mundane and I'm sure it was the highlight of a programmers week/months to do it. Others are really nifty and cool.

Regarding the match engine, the other day I said on the forums

"People will never be happy with the match engine."

And Paul Colyer himself said in reply

"And that includes me!"

[tarbanrael]

The "no offence" was meant for Psycho given the use of "unfortunately" at the beginning of my sentence. Nevermind. Regarding the match engine, yes I do agree that some people will never be happy with it. I play Fm12 nearly everyday still despite the fact that the ME is flawed. I know it and knowing this try to overlook it. What I meant by this is that for a couple of years now (11&12) the same issues have been highlighted (check the tactics section and i'm sure some of the bugs one) but yet this is not the first thing that seems to be addressed in the podcasts. You have to ask yourself, do I need 900 niftier, trendier bits & bobs or 1 major overhaul? My preference is for the second option.

Sure it takes time, and yes people are never happy, but if people were then SI would probably close shop. Remember the moves from CM to FM, then to 2D and then to 3D? Loads of worried people here and yet doom did not occur. In fact the game has become better over the years. Possibly why we still play it (I prefer that option to the fact we might be complete and utter m0r0ns).

[grep]

Guys, just express your opinion on the 3D video, not opinions on forum others members.

Thx

[Ackter]

^ that

Or infractions will start appearing.

[themadsheep2001]

erm i dont have a problem at all getting my DMC drop back and play a lotta passes with my centre halves..in fact its all in the setup. Personally the only thing that isnt perfectly fluid is to get them to drop and form a square 3 backline if needed when they lose possession, that would be the only thing that needs looking at, but imho its really minor. What i really like about the engine is how players move to take up positions made vacant by players who roam which was my mine gripe in previous engines. The only thing that imho hasnt really changed is the number of animations for mistakes made by players. Ever since the introduction of the 3d engine, people expect a logical animation to explain the loss of possession. While we have more goal celeb animations, its the "mistake" animations that we need more of. However, once again I dont think this is a game breaker. Having a "physics" engine for game animations does increase the possbility that these kinda animations get incorporated into the game.

I came back from an 8 year break, daunted at first at what seemed like a lot of options pre match. but there are so many things you can do to simplify it. I elect to trust my training focus needs to ass man recommendations, whilst i focus on preparing my team tactically for games. I have to admit its more immersive and a lot more fun. There was one big critique i had in the past which was the AIs inability to match my changes in a game, however, tbh if i wanted that i would play against a human opponent. What was the biggest weakness for me was the AIs lack of ambition or financial planning in previous versions, for FM13 thats where my focus will be cos i want the game t be engaging. For me now i still enjoy the game for all its minor flaws, it just gives me more room to roam my imagination in.

Getting them to drop in to the backline is the key part that people are looking for, its that key part of the DMC that isn't quite possible yet.

[klear]

Guys, just express your opinion on the 3D video, not opinions on forum others members.

Thx

Alright, the 3D match engine looks rubbish utter.

Like 3D subbuteo.

[dribbler]

I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm think out loud, but why would none of your players sign from Brighton to Man Utd? It's a bigger step from them. Interesting.

I've never ever been able to buy a player from my old club. Not even once in the many hundreds of seasons. Players too loyal = dead transfer market.

[jimbobBRFC]

Getting them to drop in to the backline is the key part that people are looking for, its that key part of the DMC that isn't quite possible yet.

If they managed to crack that and get it to work properly it would be a huge improvement as I think its a big part of the current "best" way to play the game i.e Barca and Spain.

EDIT: Ive actually found the best way to do it is to set three center backs and have the central a BPD Stopper and make him very attacking, that way he tries to get forward but his base position is in the backline.

[mrdorf]

Fair enough. I've never tried it as I usually just stay at one club.

[dribbler]

At Christmas this year Arsenal have 3 league games in 7 days. So why do SI schedule 4 league games in 7 days? In fact I can never remember this congested a schedule at Christmas and this certainly hasn't happened in recent seasons.

And while I'm on the subject why did an African player of mine get called up to play for Ghana on the same day as I have a Champions League match. Again I know for a fact that this doesn't happen in real life.

For a so-called realistic simulation this is sloppy and unprofessional. Surely other people have complained about these things? Basically they just can't be arsed.