Jump to content

How do I beat a 4-3-3 Away? Help me save my season!


Recommended Posts

Hi all. I'm playing in my first season with Spurs. It's March, we're sixth in the league, and face two tough away matches that could go a long way to clinching a Champions League place if I win them: Liverpool (currently 3rd) and Arsenal (currently 5th). I administered a 6-0 home shellacking of Arsenal using my typical 4-2-3-1 formation:

spurshome.jpg

homeinstructions.jpg

This formation hasn't been as effective away from home.

Arsenal and Liverpool play the same formation. I'm sharing both formations so you can see who is playing where:

lpool.jpg

arseha.jpg

I'm particularly interested in how to best utilize my midfield to beat an attacking team using a DMC. My preference is to continue to use an AMC b/c Sigurdsson (playing as a Treq) has been amazing all season and should help to provide some additional offense against the lone striker. So a few questions:

* Can I drop Sandro and Hamsik deeper into DMC roles, or will this lead to Hamsik playing poorly? I had read that you need to drop MCs deeper to defend based on the match engine, but wasn't sure if it would adversely affect a player like Hamsik.

* IF I were to drop Sigurdsson for a DMC, matching the formation of my opponents, will this impact my ability to score? My thinking being that I would be playing into their formations strengths, with their DMC waiting to neutralize any counter attack I might muster? In this formation, I would play Sandro as an Anchor man in the DM position, with Huddlestone and Hamsik as DLPs in the MC positions.

* My other option would be an alternate formation I have used from time to time, staggering my formation to drop one MC deep. Here is what it looks like:

spurs4321alt.jpg

I won't be able to introduce any new formations in time for these matches, so I'm looking for tips to help me work within these formations to steal a win. Thanks!

Link to post
Share on other sites

You don't happen to concede an enormous number of goals with this formation (the first one), do you? :)

With the match engine being what it is with the beta, sadly, the deciding factor in your fixtures will probably be who gets to put in a cross first. Your fullbacks are set up for 'automatic' duty, and with 'control' you'll probably get caught out a fair few times by Arsenal's rapid wingers (Podolski, Gervinho).

Err, good luck.

FWIW, Tottenham are busy giving me a bit of a shellacking, as we speak, in the CO Cup.

Link to post
Share on other sites

We do not give up an inordinate amount of goals. Our losses are usually in the 1-2, 2-3 variety. I should mention that I'm playing FM12, not with FM13 demo.

To defend against the wingers, how would you propose changing my fullback play? I figured that with my team set to counter-attack, they would spring into attack only when the opportunity arises.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ohhh... Well, if it's FM12, you're much better placed to take away a result.

But I'd suggest not trying to control the game away from home. Rather, play for counterattacks (which you're already sort of set up to do).

Then again, I'm no tactical guru!

Link to post
Share on other sites

My first reaction is that I bet Shelvey and Wilshere had good games. Both are attacking midfielders who will be aching to get into the gap you're leaving, pushing up higher helps to close that gap between DCs and MCs but your MCs, with a support duty, won't be inclined to sit in that gap. Pulling them back to DM sounds like a great idea or reduce their duty to defensive.

I'd probably stick with Hamsik as a DLP/Support but move Sandro to CM/Def (if you still with 2 MCs). Hamsik then sits and sprays balls around with Sandro using his athleticism and energy to mop up the gap behind as his primary job.

I'd be tempted to move Hamsik into a defensive duty for more attacking games to get Sandro forward and Hamsik back but as your system is working good leave it (it's only a very minor tweak anyway).

Moving them back to DM's should shore up your tactic no end when you face some proper pressure.

The other problem you have is that Gylfi probably does a lot of work and as he has a DM dedicated to sitting on him all game it will reduce his effectiveness so you might need a creative outlet somewhere else (solving this problem is harder). You could employ more creativity on the wing or push your wingers into attack mode to keep them higher and more likely to exploit a counter. You could try dropping Adebayor into a more creative role and have Gylfi go IF/Att to try and get them interchanging positions which creates much more movement and helps to break up the strong DC,DC,DM triangle employed against you.

Using your wingers as IF/Att can be a good ploy as it bombards the strong central area of the 433 and tries to overload their defenders. You have 4 players all set up to attack DC,DC,DM but it will get very cramped. Playing wider could help. Exploiting counters could also help to attack when the defence isn't set - when the 433 defence is set and ready then it is very difficult to break down as a deep 433 packs 5 players (DC,DC,DM,MC,MC) into the most dangerous area on the pitch which makes it very hard to break down, particularly if they are better in the air than your team.

Link to post
Share on other sites

THings I'd consider doing.

Look at who is controlling the ball and who the threats are. They can be counter like so:

DMC

Have your AMC tight mark. He doesn't need to be good at marking but just needs to be an annoyance.

MC

One of their MC's is going to be more dangerous. Switch your MC's around so that Sandro is marking the more dangerous of them. Then have him tight mark too. An indication that you have this right is if they start switching their own MC's around.

AML/R

If they are cutting in, then consider playing narrow BUT then also use exploit the flanks. This will narrow your formation, making it harder for their AML/R's to cut in side (in to traffic), but by using 'exploit the flanks' will also still allow you to use your wingers. You 'should' notice that your wingers might have more space on the wings now too.

Against AML/R's I tend to make sure my WB/FB's do not have RFD often. Mixed is as high as I go and if one of their wingers is particularly troublesome, then set your own FB/WB to FB defend.

WB

one of their wing backs is highly likely to be getting forwards a lot. You can either try and counter this by pushing yours forward OR, as I do, ensure your own winger is set to man mark him (not tight). Your winger will still get forwards when he needs too. **Also, on FM13 (never tried it on FM12) I am loving the 'Defensive Winger' role.

Now..... depending how 'into' the game you are and assuming you are partway through a season, you should be able to get most of this information ahead of the game and should be able to go into it knowing at least 50% of what needs to be done.

You need to use your scout reports. and their squad page. In the scout reports you can see how many goals scored/conceded (irrelevant for this), but also where the goals AND assists came from. Then, for instance, if most of their goals come from headers and assists come from the left flank, then you know you'll have an issue down that side - and based on teh above, this means your RB will have no forward runs and, in the case of Spurs, you might want to play a DCR in that place rather than a RB (FM this means playing Kaboul rather than Walker). However, to confirm who is giving the assists, you go to the squad page. Then ensure you have assists in a column (I use my own default selection screen and works well with the opposition squad too). Are their assists coming from the winger or the Wingback.... if it's the winger then, as above, switch FBR to Fullback defend. If it's the Wingback then make sure your winger is tightmarking him and (new) consider the 'defensive winger' role.

Whilst in this screen, also look for key other stats.... does the DMC have a high pass percentage, does he have a high assist rating. Now, just because he doesn't have a high assist it doesnt mean he is not causing damage. One of the key things for a DMC is to recycle the ball. So, get your AMC to tight man mark him.

Like I said, much of the information is available if you are willing to work for it (which sounds like you are).

Regards

LAM

Link to post
Share on other sites

I had to get a 6-1 throttling of Norwich out of the way before I could face off against Liverpool at Anfield last night, prior to reading these most recent posts. I played my "alternate" tactic, which is shown above, with a DMCr and MCl. Strategy: Counter, Creative Freedom: Default, Closing Down: Default, Zonal marking. We were up 3-0 after 30 minutes, and held on for a 3-2 win despite losing Walker to injury (he's out for the season now). I watched the whole match from an overhead view, and didn't see any obvious issues with my formation. The 2 Liverpool goals were scored via a corner and long shot from the corner of the box. Next up: Arsenal.

Furious: Can you explain the suggestion to drop Hamsik into a defensive role rather than Sandro? My insticts tell me that Sandro is more of a defensive "rock" while Hamsik is a highly creative MC who could really contribute to an attack, based on his passing and finishing ratings.

Also - I'm considering using Bale as IF/Attack but had two questions about that: Is that making my front line too attack-heavy to have all of my AMs and ST on attack? Also, should I be setting him to "move into channels" in his personal instructions? One of his PPMs is to dribble down the left side, so I'm not sure if those are conflicting instructions.

lam: Thank you for the suggestions. This is very helpful. My knowledge of football tactics is solely based in this game, so I sometimes struggle to analyze HOW a formation works (and, conversely, how to respond to the play of others). I have forgotten to scout my opponents in this save, but now appreciate the value in that. I will however analyze their player stats to get a sense of where they might like to do their damage.

More to come...

Link to post
Share on other sites

I used to use the BWM a lot when I managed lower leagues but fell out of love with it higher up as the high closing down can contradict with other closing down instructions and pull a tight formation out of line but this thread opened my eyes up again to a different use case for the BWM.

My initial usage of this role was in a 442 (which is, of course, different to your situation) whereby the BWM would be my defensive rock and the other MC the attacking, creative guy. However, the BWM can get pulled out of position very easily as he chases for the ball which means you have no-one sitting and holding as their primary role. Against another 442 you can usually manage fine but against formations with a guy in the hole (AMC) you run a serious risk of having a highly talented creative guy who isn't being watched carefully because your 'holding' player has raced up the pitch to try and make a tackle only to be bypassed by good passing and movement.

However, the energy and enthusiasm of a BWM can be harnessed if you employ another chap to 'sweep' up behind him. This midfield sweeper operates deeper which often means he has more space so why not put your creative maestro in where he is going to get some space and let his immense passing and technique compensate for the fact that your creative fulcrum is deep? Another added advantage of having your 'smarter' MC as the deep holding guy is that a holding chap should be getting interceptions because he is holding space that a ball can be passed into - if he uses his smarts (particularly anticipation) he can mop up interceptions without going anywhere near a tackle (think Pirlo - pretty useless tackler and slow but a great holding player, almost as good defensively as he is adept with the ball).

Hamsik is a great thinker and a great catalyst, whilst I like him higher up he has all the attributes to play deeper and sweep behind a high energy wrecking ball. With a guy behind your BWM is free to 'get amongst it' without worrying about leaving huge gaps.

With the emergence of ever deeper creative players this matches many modern thoughts on setting up the fulcrum of your team.

I've been toying with this in the beta with Tottenham for a while and it has worked great. Sandro has even been banging in the goals with long-range efforts from BWM where he has pushed further forward and got into good positions around the edge of the box. The BWM is primarily thought of when not in possession but when you've got the ball he'll play like a 'standard' MC but with his high energy (surely you'd always pick a high energy physical specimen as BWM?) he'll play like a B2B - he doesn't need lots of attacking ability (particularly if you use a creative-type AMC) just lots of endeavour which helps to create a good balance of creativity and physicality in your midfield.

It can totally change the dynamic of a midfield so can be used as your go-to strategy or something to mix it up.

Link to post
Share on other sites

BTW. If you stick with the staggered formation then I'd consider flipping it over. Spurs right side, in my opinion, is far more attacking than the left. AND Lennon is fantastic as an Inside forward. You wouldnt beleive the amount of goals he can score and then you will also create space for Walker who likes to get forward.

Move Bale back a little, which, again in my opinion, is where he plays best and from their you can use his defensive qualities if needs be or having him run to the line and cross or cut inside too, which he is good at, but you should notice, he cuts inside earlier than Lennon.

If you make those changes, as well as what Furious suggested then I'd seriously consider changing Walkers role to WINGBACK rather than fullback. Though, seeing as he just got injured, you DONT want to do that with Kaboul, if that is who you are playing now.

Out of interest.... how is the Spurs squad with the update in 2012?

I'm not really liking 2013 at the moment. A little to buggy for me...... just scored 5 crosses against Liverpool........

Link to post
Share on other sites

I put in many of the changes suggested here for my match against Arsenal last night: Hamsik - DMCl (DLP-S), Sandro - MCr (BWM-S), Bale - ML (W), Lennon AMR (IF). Kaboul was at RB due to Walker's injury, with Gallas filling in at DC. Game was a draw for 81 minutes before Gervinho knocked in a rebound. I switched from Counter to Attack and immediately responded with a goal. Game ended in a 1-1 draw. I guess I can't really complain with the result. Lloris was an absolute beast, taking MoM with a 9.3. We had an overall higher team rating than Arsenal, mostly due to Lloris, but I was concerned with my team's inability to get into the box. We didn't have a shot on goal until 60 minutes, after I switched my team settings to Control for a while in hopes of generating some offensive movement. I'm not sure what was behind the sluggish offensive performance. Even though I was moving player positions and roles around, it didn't seem to affect the squad's overall familiarity with the tactic. Lennon was especially disappointing. Since it was only 1 match, I'm not sure how much of that was due to strong defense by Arsenal or specific issues with Lennon's play.

Unfortunately, due to an odd schedule glitch, we now have to play a home match just two days later. Against Man Utd, no less. They had to play Chelsea the same day as I took on Arsenal, so we'll both be whipped. I'll be going to back to my more prolific 4-2-3-1 for that match, but playing with a deeper line and more restrictive mentality.

Iam: I'm playing with the Weegie update, and the squad additions have been a mixed bag. Having Lloris is great, but i haven't been able to move Gomes or Friedel so I'm spending a lot of money on GKs. Dembele and Dempsey have not been impressive, at all. Dembele was ineffective as an MC (I might have been using him poorly, admittedly), and Dempsey is just squad depth. He doesn't seem to do anything well. He's a late game sub for Lennon and that's it. Sigurdsson, however, is amazing. Playing behind a striker as a Treq he is a consistent scoring threat.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Iam: I'm playing with the Weegie update, and the squad additions have been a mixed bag. Having Lloris is great, but i haven't been able to move Gomes or Friedel so I'm spending a lot of money on GKs. Dembele and Dempsey have not been impressive, at all. Dembele was ineffective as an MC (I might have been using him poorly, admittedly), and Dempsey is just squad depth. He doesn't seem to do anything well. He's a late game sub for Lennon and that's it. Sigurdsson, however, is amazing. Playing behind a striker as a Treq he is a consistent scoring threat.

That was my worry.

I just love the 442 and I don't see any of those new signings working out in that formation, especially so when I look at their attributes in FM13. Dembele, who everyone is raving about in RL is, at best, just plain average in FM13.

To be honest, I have moved back to my FM12 save, not just because of some of the bugs, but because I hate the new signings. I think once the game is released proper then I'll get back into it. That said, watching the match in FM12 now seems very clunky after fm13.

Sorry to say that I can not give you much advice on formations with a single striker. Despite getting them to work fairly well this pre-season, I just hate them. I don't understand them and feel that any win is purely down to team ability rather than any cunning on my part.

Regards

LAM

Link to post
Share on other sites

442 is still the way forward imo. No matter what I do I always end up back with the 442 at some point because it has everything you could ever want from a formation.

Can't believe I didn't know Lam was a Spurs fan and to think I used to like him :D:p

Link to post
Share on other sites

Can't believe I didn't know Lam was a Spurs fan and to think I used to like him :D:p

Ouchers.... ;)

I think what you say about the 442 is spot on.... it can do anything.

However, I think one thing that puts many many people off of it and was the basis of one of your greatest threads in my opinion, is that it needs tweaking a little each match, and not really before the match. You need to watch the game and then tweak a little if it isn't working. If you don't then I think it will have massive gaps, but if you can read the play and tweak, even just a little, it creates some great football.

Also, it can be as complex or as simple as you want it to be.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ouchers.... ;)

I think what you say about the 442 is spot on.... it can do anything.

However, I think one thing that puts many many people off of it and was the basis of one of your greatest threads in my opinion, is that it needs tweaking a little each match, and not really before the match. You need to watch the game and then tweak a little if it isn't working. If you don't then I think it will have massive gaps, but if you can read the play and tweak, even just a little, it creates some great football.

Also, it can be as complex or as simple as you want it to be.

That is very true yeah :)

I also think that is true for all tactics nowdays though, they all need a slight tweak here and there. Plug and Play is morealess none existent now unless you find some kind of ME glitch, that is the only way you can achieve plug and play nowdays.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I play a 4-2-3-1 and have troubles with 4-3-3s too. Here's my solution:

Play a 4-2-4. Flat back 4, 2 CMs or DMs, whatever you prefer, and 4 AMs.

Back 4 can be whatever you like. I usually use 2 normal centre backs and 2 attacking wingbacks.

Middle 2 are generally holding midfielders. I generally prefer CMd and DLPs.

Front 4 are IFa-TQ-AMa-IFa. You can try setting one of the inside forwards to wingers if you wish, or even both. I prefer having 2 inside forwards. Best to have TQ directly in front of your CMd and the AMa in front of the DLPs.

All settings as default settings. I generally pull long shots to rarely for everyone though.

For your team, I'd try something like this:

Bale - Sigurodson (TQ) - Hamsik (AMa) - Lennon

Sandro (CMd) - Hudds (DLPs)

Back four

Obviously Huddlestone is out injured so you can either use Sigurodsson, Hamsik or Dempsey there. Ideally, DLP is your best defensive creator, TQ is your best creator, AMa is your best finisher.

The idea behind this style of play is having solid defensive core to hold off attacks. You've got your 2 midfielders battling the opposition 2 midfielders so your back 4 can handle their attacking 3. Traditionally the AMC in a 4-2-3-1 gets marked to oblivion by the opposition DM, so if you pull a striker back you'll have 2 dangerous players in that DM zone. Since they're both in the AM slots, the opposition defenders won't be marking them tightly, which means you'll always have a free central midfield player to make a dangerous pass

cheers

Link to post
Share on other sites

This is an interesting idea. I didn't think you could effectively play without a striker. Who knows, if someone makes a move for Adebayor, I might just give this a go. at least, I might experiment with this when facing teams throwing a DM at me. To date, Sigurdsson has been very effective as an AMC playing as a Treq, but it's something I'll keep an eye on.

Thanks to the advice in this thread, I was able to beat Liverpool Away, draw Aresnal away and then, only two days later, draw with Man Utd at home. Taking 5 points from that gauntlet of matches did in fact save my season. Despite a horrible 2-1 loss at Southampton, we stole 4th place and clinched Champions League football. Thank you very much for the tips - I had definitely been doing a little too much "plug and play" and this thread helped me get a better sense of how to build/adjust a formation.

Now it's time to get Dempsey and Dembele out of here and push on into 2012-2013!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...