Help with very attack minded 4-2-3-1 dominating matches only winning big matches

[wardog]

This year i decided to try and improve my tactical knowledge by tinkering with tactics a little. I had a previously semi-successful tactic on past versions but in honesty i was bored of it and wanted something new. I decided to load a new save with Barca giving them some money to spend using the editor purely on the basis of working out what will work and what won't.

However I've built a tactic that in theory I think should work. I've only made 3 signings only 2 of which will actually play in the first team, the other is on the bench and a highly rated prospect, well highly rated now just not quite first team level.

I basically played with a 4-2-3-1 on Fifa (yes i know, I'm more of an FM guy for what its worth) and i thought it would provide a good starting system. So decided to use that.

Team and Positions.

GK - Valdes

WBR(S) - Dani Alvez

DC(D) - Puyol (Song gets the odd game here)

DC(D) - Pique

WBL(S) - Jordi Alba

CM - DLP(D) - Fabregas (not ideal for the role admittedly but i have better options further forward)

CM - DLP(D) - Xavi/Busqets (I dislike 30+ players in my team but I don't have the you know whats to drop Xavi permanently)

CAMR(A) - Iniesta

CAMC(A) - Messi

CAML(A) - Neymar

ST - P(A) - Falcao (also tried this as an Advanced forward but Poacher seemed to work better)

Style - Fluid

Strategy - Attacking

Passing style - More Direct

Creative Freedom - More Expressive

Closing Down - Press More

Tackling - Default

Marking - Man (I dislike Zonal)

Crossing - Default (didn't expect much crossing and there hasn't been so have left this)

Roaming - More Roaming

The issue I've had with my squad is we just don't perform in the smaller matches. I've beat Real home and away in the super cup and beat Man City home and away in the champions league. Other than that we seem to draw or lose. Normally to late goals. One prime example would be winning 2-0 with 10 minutes to go v Real Sociedad and losing 3-2. Admittedly Jordi Alba got sent off so played a part. However other games with 11 men on the pitch follow a similar pattern.

I know using two deep lying playmakers isn't very good but i obviously needed some defensive cover. I feel in theory this tactic should work and we're regularly dominating matches with 60%+ possession however not being able to finnish them off.

Any advice would be appreciated.

[RTHerringbone]

I'm far from an expert, but the duties you have assigned are all very similar across the horizontal strata of the pitch (the CM's are defensive, the AM's and ST are attacking). This means there will be a degree of disconnect between these areas, which will presumably be offset to an extent by fluidity and creative freedom.

I'd consider having Xavi/Busquets defensive (DML), Fabregas (DMR) supporting. Messi Attacking, Iniesta Supporting and Neymar Attacking. There is always benefit to having your ST in a Supporting role to create natural movements then back to midfield and vice versa from Messia and Neymar.

I've also never successfully combined two DLPs, it may be worth setting Busquets to be an Anchor, BWM or DM, and then alternative Xavi or Fabregas in a supportive DLP role.

Similarly, it would make sense to mix roles in your AMC areas, with perhaps one AP, and a couple of AMs.

[llama3]

Key points:

• You don't have any physical personnel, and Barcelona are suited to possession football, so direct passing may not work very well.
  
• Your furthest 4 players forward are all attacking duties, you need to mix your roles and duties more to create unpredictable movement.
  
• Your roles do not suit some of your players - Messi is wasted as a simple AMC, Fabregas wasted as a DLP (D).
  

[wardog]

Key points:

• You don't have any physical personnel, and Barcelona are suited to possession football, so direct passing may not work very well.
  
• Your furthest 4 players forward are all attacking duties, you need to mix your roles and duties more to create unpredictable movement.
  
• Your roles do not suit some of your players - Messi is wasted as a simple AMC, Fabregas wasted as a DLP (D).
  

I fully agree with Fabregas he was a huge issue with me. Was actually thinking he might be better if i swapped him and Iniesta around?

Messi was a huge issue. With Falcao as the lone striker i clearly made the desision to move Messi slightly back without really thinking about the roles of an attacking midfielder.

Glad people already spotting some issues. Thanks.

[wardog]

Right so I've made some changes as this pic shows.

As of so far I've kept it the rest the same in attempt to get the positions corrected. I used the recommended on each players pages to try and get this correct. Iniesta was the only one i went against as it said a required attribute was strength with is very low. I also switched him with Cesc as I felt he was better slightly further back and Cesc seems more creative.

The reason I haven't changed from direct is thats something I've struggled with in past versions being more direct always worked for me better.

With the tactic set out like this we're still maintaining 60%+ possession in most games as i was previously. And we're creating more chances.. Issue being most are off target but I guess that is a morale issue now.

[RTHerringbone]

Will be interested to hear how Messi fares with an IF role from a central position. I always assumed that Inside Forwards would need to be physically be placed out towards a wing to be most effective? Similar formation to mine - the combination of DLP and AP in the CM positions seems pretty effective to me.

[wardog]

Will be interested to hear how Messi fares with an IF role from a central position. I always assumed that Inside Forwards would need to be physically be placed out towards a wing to be most effective? Similar formation to mine - the combination of DLP and AP in the CM positions seems pretty effective to me.

Neymar seems to be in games less now compared to previous when he was in an attacking AM role. Although my report is adamant he should play better in this role.

As for Messi in this role he seems to be far more in matches. If i should word it like that. Having a much larger impact. We just played a game against Madrid at home and thumped them 5-0 Messi was the main man in this, although didn't get man of the match due to Iniesta getting a hat-trick from Messi passing twice and Neymar winning a penalty for the third.

Iniesta defienatley seems to be more comfortable in this role. Fabregas hasn't been great further forward however and Xavi is now injured. However the AP role just doesn't seem to be doing much for Gotze either. Changing the WB's to attacking rather than support seems to be making a differance. Dani Alves similar performances but Alba's have gotten far better. Although i warned him I wouldn't be afraid to drop him if he didn't improve.

The issue again i'm still having is the lack of shots on target. The amount going needlessly wide is annoying. Expessially from basic shooting angles. Or a terrible choice to shoot when a cut back would make much more sense but I suspect that's my punishment for having Neymar, Messi and Falcao in the same team. The secondary issue I think I can't fix, maybe someone can offer advice. Is Valdes often trying to play his way out of trouble. I know he does this in real life. But he doesn't have it as a PPM and its cost us 2 goals, and nearly cost us to draw at home v Aderlect in the Champions League if it wasn't for some great defending from Bartra.

[RTHerringbone]

The issue again i'm still having is the lack of shots on target. The amount going needlessly wide is annoying. Expessially from basic shooting angles. Or a terrible choice to shoot when a cut back would make much more sense but I suspect that's my punishment for having Neymar, Messi and Falcao in the same team. The secondary issue I think I can't fix, maybe someone can offer advice. Is Valdes often trying to play his way out of trouble. I know he does this in real life. But he doesn't have it as a PPM and its cost us 2 goals, and nearly cost us to draw at home v Aderlect in the Champions League if it wasn't for some great defending from Bartra.

I have issues with shots too, I usually get around 20 per game, around half of which are from long distance and that is annoying me. I use the same formation as you, but Standard and Balanced. Can't remember what my AM strata trio roles are (your Messi, Neymar and Fabregas line) but they're the ones taking all the long shots. Will have a look tonight, it will be something I have done stupidly.

[wardog]

I have issues with shots too, I usually get around 20 per game, around half of which are from long distance and that is annoying me. I use the same formation as you, but Standard and Balanced. Can't remember what my AM strata trio roles are (your Messi, Neymar and Fabregas line) but they're the ones taking all the long shots. Will have a look tonight, it will be something I have done stupidly.

Im normally getting between 20-30 shots a game and on target varies between 5-14. This stat is slowly starting to rise. So again might be an issue of having 3 players who all want to score goals in the team. I would expect far more assists from Fabregas/Iniesta than i see. Although being honest teams are playing so defencively v me at the moment its pretty difficult to pass it into the box. Normally Neymar or Messi's dribbling skills that are creating the chances.

[RTHerringbone]

My shooting improved simply by changing my passing style to short; long shots reduced, shots on target increased, and possession increased. (Jesus! Celtic 2 up!)

My AMC type roles are AM(S) AP(A) AM (A).

[PeeKay]

There is a lot of conflicting issues with yours team strategy; you have a fantasy football team playing like a Stoke team managed by Sam Allardyce!

I'm going to guess you conceed a lot of goals from corners and on the counter attack? The team is height is short (not much you can do about it) and none of your players are dropping to cover your defence. Try changing Busquets role to defend, although, I'm not sure that would work to well from MC position. That's the reason why IRL the 2 in midfielders as usually holding players in a combination of roles.

You won't be keeping possession like Barca either because you are asking the team to pass direct with attacking philosophy. You are effectively telling the players to score as quickly and they do this by passing the ball directly to the front players (lower chance of completing) and the front players will shoot, even if the chance is of scoring is low; High Tempo and Rarely Time Wasting (a crappy name, someone else on the forums suggested a better name would have been Patience).

You may not like Zonal marking but there is a reason why modern top team use it. It stops the players being drawn out of position especially if you have no midfielders protecting them. The last sucessful team I can think of that used Man Marking was Greece EURO win in 2004. It's seen as a negative tactic when used throughout the team. That said, it can be useful for an individual player to man mark specific threats.

Finally, as a warning, I view the Poacher and Insider Forward(Att) roles as "selfish" roles. The player's first instinict is to shoot (Poacher) or dribble (IFa) and if thats not on then to pass. You have to be sure that is what you want your players to do.

[wardog]

Thanks for feedback PeeKay lots to take in here. In responce. Corner goals I haven't seen too many against me, about 1 i think. On the counter we've conceded a couple but mostly its due to dominating a a match for 80 minutes. Then the opposition team come out and attack and blitz us for the last 10 minutes. A few goals coming from errors from the keeper. Some are coming from good play from the opposition. Lots coming from outside the area. I'll maybe try uploading some from the next matches. Although we're definatley showing some improvement of late.

In regards to the fantasy team, that was kind of my aim, to have a world dream team for this save. Might sound daft and I probably should have just used the editor to create a team but I wanted to build it myself.

Possession wise i'm 60%+ nothing like what I've seen Barca have in some games but defo much more than I've had with my old tactics v good teams.

Zonal marking is maybe something I should come around too. When i played as a kid i was always taught man marking and i guess thats likely why i prefer it.

Regards to the Poacher I've never previously used this role. I always prefered a 2 man strike force though usually with an AF and DLF as the front 2. Gave me mixed success. But i found unless the AF was in form we always struggled for goals. Again i used a 4-4-2 previous so the AM roles i have no experiance in. My first ever post in the tactics thread has came with my willingness to tinker. Thanks for some good feedback.

[wardog]

Ok I finally managed to convince myself to switch to short passing instead of direct. Played one match so far since doing so, so not enough time to tell how it is going to work. Early on in the game we passed it through the Rayo side (who currently have the worst defensive record in the league) Jordi Alba rounds the keeper and instead of taking the open goal passes it to Neymar who has 3 men around him, resulting in a corner. So clearly i was annoyed in the early stages.

However as the game progressed I actually seen alot of Improvement. We created alot of chances. Not all on target but I seen far more wholes in the opposition defence being made. Again this was against the worst defence in the league so that likely plays a part. However in all I feel the attacking 3 of Neymar, Falcao and Messi we're making lots of runs and passes causing the defence to get muddled. Fabregas was getting space as a result allowing him to create and score when given the opportunity.

In the end we won 6-2. Their goals both coming from in-direct free-kicks. A few of you have said I will have to accept conceding those kind of goals. Overall I'm pretty happy with that performance and I'll keep an eye on this over the next few games.