FM 13 - Signing wonderkid style youngsters is very difficult

[stonini90]

i think the game made impossible to sign wonderkids. Check this http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/stoni90/somma_zps91e18f80.jpg player and these demands http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v621/stoni90/bid_zps2267aaab.jpg

[Jibby123]

It should be so difficult to sign wonderkids ffs without paying a shedload of ridiculous $$$£££ (or Euro's ). That's the whole point. Wonderkids should be THE next big thing of his generation and every man and his dog will be wanting them. If anything it's too easy to sign great prospects, not the opposite.

Or would you rather make it easy for your wonderkid to be stolen off of you??

[ozza000]

The issue is right now there doesn't seem to be anywhere near enough influence of repuation (both club and league) and finances in taking into account sale prices. Right now a will be world beater at 17 in game, if you try to buy from Man Utd and the likes will cost you around £30-40m. But some team from Croatia or the like will also want £20-£30m for the same player. This just isn't anywhere near realistic. Most clubs in most countries simply cannot afford to hang on to their most potent youngsters. If some big club came knocking their is simply no way these clubs can hang on to these players and they would go for far cheaper than in game.

For those that said in real life no clubs really buy youngsters with intention of selling them on for profit later, this simply isn't true. Clubs like Porto, Udinese have been doing this practice for years buying from South America and then later selling on then the bigger clubs in Europe come knocking.

It's understandable that the big clubs with secure finances do not want to sell these players, but the reality is very few clubs are in this situation. Very few clubs are so sound financially that they could turn down £20m for an 18 year old. In Football Manger 2013, too many clubs are defiant in selling their youngsters in the face of all logic. Most clubs in a lot of countries would bite clubs hands off for £10m for one of their youngsters, and even if they didn't the player would be desperate to force his way out to a bigger league, bigger club etc. In game not only do small clubs reject ridiculous bids, the player doesn't even seem to bat an eyelid, and not be bothered at all that his club just rejected £10m for him from Barcelona.

[stonini90]

It should be so difficult to sign wonderkids ffs without paying a shedload of ridiculous $$$£££ (or Euro's ). That's the whole point. Wonderkids should be THE next big thing of his generation and every man and his dog will be wanting them. If anything it's too easy to sign great prospects, not the opposite.

Or would you rather make it easy for your wonderkid to be stolen off of you??

Look at the player first. 0 apps in league. 1 U-21 cap. Value 725k and requested price is 18.25M. are you serious this is a normal request?

and if you say ok Napoli is a big club. how about a player from Panaitolikos greek small club whos value is 10k and they wont sell him even with 4m. THIS IS COMPLETELY UNREALISTIC. we are talking about clubs with **** finances and no reputation.

[Jibby123]

Look at the player first. 0 apps in league. 1 U-21 cap. Value 725k and requested price is 18.25M. are you serious this is a normal request?

and if you say ok Napoli is a big club. how about a player from Panaitolikos greek small club whos value is 10k and they wont sell him even with 4m. THIS IS COMPLETELY UNREALISTIC. we are talking about clubs with **** finances and no reputation.

They just don't want to sell him?? The price is their way of telling you to 'do one'??

I can paste up shedloads of real life 'ridiculous' transfers that big clubs have had to pay way, way, way, way over the value for (which is so subjective anyway and so open for argument in itself). Ask Liverpool.

[ozza000]

Liverpool overpaid to rich English clubs though. Big difference there. There is no not wanting to sell for a no-name Greek club, if some club offers something semi-reasonable they will be forced to sell.

[stonini90]

Liverpool overpaid to rich English clubs though. Big difference there. There is no not wanting to sell for a no-name Greek club, if some club offers something semi-reasonable they will be forced to sell.

especially when the no-name club has no future in league and no money.

[Jibby123]

Newcastle and Sunderland aren't rich ffs. Even if they are; £35M for Carroll is as nuts as any example you will find in game I think.

Bebe to Man United from Estrela or Vitoria de Guimaraes (depending who you believe ) for £8m, and that's just off the top of my head. Football is awash with mad OTT prices.

Find your own wonderkid and accept the market value for him?? No thought not, you'll push it to ridiculous and AI should act any different??

A lot complained before that they'd chase a player and he was not for sell at any price, as in impossible to bid for, now you do get an actual figure, still people tantrum it up?? They want reality, but reality is mad and so subjective as well, what's reasonable in transfers is different for every fan or manager irl.

[Savo7en]

prime examples of clubs paying over the odds for unproven players irl:

John obi Mikel to Chelsea aged 18, deal worth £16m in 2006 from Lyn Oslo, played 6 games for Lyn

Anderson to Porto aged 17, deal worth 7m Euros in 2005 from Gremio, played 19 games for Gremio

Raheem Sterling to Liverpool aged 15, deal worth £5m in 2010 from QPR, played 0 games for QPR

Overpriced for their age given the potential? i think so, particularly at the ages they were signed.

[Jibby123]

prime examples of clubs paying over the odds for unproven players irl:

John obi Mikel to Chelsea aged 18, deal worth £16m in 2006 from Lyn Oslo, played 6 games for Lyn

Anderson to Porto aged 17, deal worth 7m Euros in 2005 from Gremio, played 19 games for Gremio

Raheem Sterling to Liverpool aged 15, deal worth £5m in 2010 from QPR, played 0 games for QPR

Overpriced for their age given the potential? i think so, particularly at the ages they were signed.

Good spots. Pretty much closes the thread?? Just refer them back to this post for those wanting reasonable 'realism' in-game. Transfers are mad.

[ozza000]

Newcastle and Sunderland aren't rich ffs. Even if they are; £35M for Carroll is as nuts as any example you will find in game I think.

Bebe to Man United from Estrela or Vitoria de Guimaraes (depending who you believe ) for £8m, and that's just off the top of my head. Football is awash with mad OTT prices.

Find your own wonderkid and accept the market value for him?? No thought not, you'll push it to ridiculous and AI should act any different??

A lot complained before that they'd chase a player and he was not for sell at any price, as in impossible to bid for, now you do get an actual figure, still people tantrum it up?? They want reality, but reality is mad and so subjective as well, what's reasonable in transfers is different for every fan or manager irl.

They are very rich on a worldwide scale. The main concern here is not that sorta of top level. This is the main thing you're missing. It's one thing Newcastle and Sunderland demanding big fees (and these weren't for total no-name 17 and 18 year olds either), but teams from most of Europe outside the top several leagues just cannot be rejecting any sort of big resembling those that are rejected willy-nilly in game.

£8m buys you hardly anything in this game. When I went to Guimaraes for one of their youngsters, they wanted £30m. This is just not at all realistic.

Your next point would be solved in what my solution is. If you are a small club, it should be near impossible to hang on to these better players. You shouldn't have a say in rejecting a fee. If you're a League One side and some team comes in offering £10m for one of your players, your chairman should be coming over your head to accept it. Two wrongs don't make a right, just because both sides are flawed right now doesn't mean that is the right way to go about it.

In general the transfer system needs an overhaul. If you are a Conference side piling through the leagues, your best players should all be in high demand, in game this doesn't tend to happen, and it's far too easy to keep players of League One standard at a Conference team.

And on your final point, the reality is very few players from very few clubs are just not for sale at any price, so this whole "not for sale for any price" for an 18 year old is a complete nonsense.

prime examples of clubs paying over the odds for unproven players irl:

John obi Mikel to Chelsea aged 18, deal worth £16m in 2006 from Lyn Oslo, played 6 games for Lyn

Anderson to Porto aged 17, deal worth 7m Euros in 2005 from Gremio, played 19 games for Gremio

Raheem Sterling to Liverpool aged 15, deal worth £5m in 2010 from QPR, played 0 games for QPR

Overpriced for their age given the potential? i think so, particularly at the ages they were signed.

The John Obi Mikel transfer simply isn't true. Lyn received £4m for the player. Chelsea had to pay £16m because Man Utd had already signed him and they basically swooped in a highly controversial fashion. And they had to pay £12m to Man Utd. Man Utd are obviously going to demand a high price for a promising youngster so nothing to see here at all. In game Lyn would probably want £20m themselves.

Anderson. 7m euros is not a lot of money really for a promising Brazillian youngster from a Brazillian club. In game again they would cost 3x that figure.

On Sterling, Liverpool paid £600k which becomes £5m if he plays a number of league games (effectively if he turns out to be any good). Again £5m from a Championship side at the time is a fair price really. Again in game Championship clubs want way in excess of this for their promising youngsters.

[Jibby123]

Fair points Ozza000 (the Andy Carroll trumps all that imvho anyway 44 aps, 6 gls and 18 months later he's loaned out), but I ask you this; how much would you sell that wonderkid you have waiting in the wings or just established in your first team for?? And the board have gone over my head in-game to move him on when I think he's not for sell at any price very often.

Blackpool, Peterborough and Yeovil and Crawley have smashed through their leagues in past decade or so. How many of their players were mashed up??

Horses for courses, but if anything I think it's too easy to hoover up amazing newgens on the game not the opposite, if you're waiting until they're 'wonderkid' material you've missed the boat and are and should pay stupid money.

[stonini90]

im getting this thread bacl. I still think signing youngsters is still unrealistic. How can a 17years with no apps ever, value 400k and current potential 1 star cost 20M. Its unreal.

[Skorpio678]

Read most of the first page and this entire third page but skipped the rest. Throwing in my opinion here.

Let's not focus on the AI here, let's say you just got your youth intake at an unknown club in your career, your scouts have given him 5 star potential and you notice wonderkid status, immediately clubs come in with low bids, You're obviously going to tell them to get out or get some cash from the situation. This kid can lead your club to glory are you going to sell him on for **** poor amounts? or even if somebody comes in with a shockingly outrageous bid of say 30million. Depending on how stubborn you are you either keep or take it, or even demand more, if they are dumb enough to bid 30mil maybe they'll go higher? If not you've still got your amazing wonderkid who can help your team out and as he improves maybe you'll get even more for him.

All I'm saying is stop thinking about the AI making "shoddy" decisions and instead think about what you'd do given their situation. Not to mention manager type comes into play, stubborn managers aren't going to sell him and ambitious managers are going to rake in as much as they can.. etc...

It's not unrealistic at all! it seems to the point of you guys who are on the "unrealistic" etc sides are too stubborn to admit you're wrong. Sure some clubs/managers make questionable decisions about their players but real life can be like that too...

[lil ole me]

I picked up a gem of a player from a low austrian side for 87k....now at 23 he`s worth over 32m quid and i ain`t selling for even 80

[Mojby]

i actually think that Si have got it right. I always play as Liverpool and I invest heavily in my youth team and scouting network. previously it was too easy to go and buy the best young talent around for relative peanuts. After 8 years, you end up with the best team around and it gets too easy.

By having to pay 10's millions for these youth players is right - it makes it harder to build up that youth team of wonderkids. You need to adapt and put all your energy into your own youth team and youth recruitment network.

[StewartJRobertson]

Ive focussed on building a young squad in my five years as Celtic manager. Whilst I agree that this isnt always the easiest thing to do with some clubs demanding astronomical fees, im not sure why you would want it to be any different.

If you had a player come through your youth system with 5 star potential and some mob came in and offered a couple million quid, you would tell them to chase themselves.

Ive still managed to buy some top quality youngsters for next to nothing. You've just got to look around and be in the right place at the right time. Signed a regen called Jo for £1.5m who was useless for his first season, now he's unstoppable.

It was too easy in past versions to sign wonderkids. SI should be congratulated.

[santy001]

The amount of money in football is ever increasing, so even average transfers now compared to a few years ago are tending to go through for higher amounts of money. What has to be done with youngsters is a a longer term view taken towards their purchase. My scouts spotted a striker at 16 years old, first offers were over £10m and I didn't think that was worth it for him at the time, at 18 the price had risen to over £20m. However, I just spent time continuing to pursue the transfer, periodic praise and in the last year of his contract at the age of 20 he wanted a transfer, I picked him up for £6.5m and he had already got a lot of first team action - albeit at a lower level - and was a top player.

I have found DoF's are quite effective at signing youngsters for less than you'd expect too, my DoF has bought in a cracking striker for £8m and a good right fullback for £11m, I wouldn't have expected to sign either of those myself for those fees.

[jcafcwbb]

Maybe the slightly ridiculous thing is the ability to spend £20 million on a 15 year old. What board in the real world would allow a manager to do that. In the real world manager's miss out on targets because they cannot raise the funds to complete the deal.

Barcelona almost missed out on Messi because of the money needed to pay for his injections.

Maybe more realistic budgets and amounts of money allowed for a young, untried player should be introduced.

No way you should be allowed to spend £20 million on a young player.

[BiggusD]

im getting this thread bacl. I still think signing youngsters is still unrealistic. How can a 17years with no apps ever, value 400k and current potential 1 star cost 20M. Its unreal.

It's unreal because they demanding 20m is the equivalent of saying "not for sale at any price" rejecting your bid. You would complain then as well. That 17yo is not for sale. Move on. I have to pay 500k-10m for top talent as well, but I am also aware that if a youth player costs me 5m or more, he will need to become a regular first team player if I am going to profit from him. 20m and it is more likely that I'd lose money on him, and he will have to be good enough to be a first-team starter right away. A wonderkid.

What I agree is unrealistic, is that a club will demand more for a player than its entire value. Sure, when Manchester United entered the bid war for Mame Biram Diouf of Molde (he would be a wonderkid in the Norwegian League), the transfer value increased from £1,5-2,5m to a reported £5m because of MU's financial muscle and reputation. But that is still not anywhere near the value of the club. A Norwegian club would never demand transfer record fees (£7m for John Carew back in the day) for a teenager. In other words, the "not for sale at any price" should become "ok that's a ridiculous offer we will have to accept it thanks bye" depending not only on the club's financial status and the player's reputation, but also on the league and club's reputation. After all, it is not in the interest of small clubs in small leagues to prevent their players the opportunity to join a (much) higher reputation club because if anything, the sale of Diouf to Manchester United increased Molde's reputation in Europe. Thus it is okay for a club in the "big five nations" to demand 10m+ for their young prospects, and some bigger clubs in smaller nations like Porto, Ajax and Shakhtar as well, but outside of that the demands should be far smaller than they are today.

[jimminyjellikers]

One thing that hasn't really been talked about is the lack of negotiations. Most clubs in real life will realise almost regardless of the players potential they can't expect huge fees due to the amount of variables in a players developement e.g. injuries player personality excetra. The vast majority of young players signed in real life will command a decent sized fee AND sell on clauses. Look at Tom Ince IRL Liverpool let him go as he wanted first team football for a small fee but still included a percentage of next fee. He goes and does well and Blackpool and his value has increased but not to the extent that they are calling for 20mil.

I can see the reason behind the need to limit the ease of buying all the best youngsters but I don't think it has been properly thought out. I manage Liverpool and don't see why I should spend 15 mil on a possible class youth when I can buy a 25 yr old who can walk into my team for the same price. Example, i'm at the start of 3rd season and have just bought Wilshere for 20mil. Why would I spend 10-15mil on a 15 yr old when I can do that?

[j88_ftm]

A point I would like to throw into this debate (sorry if it's been mentioned already; haven't had time to look at every post) is that in FM player development is a bit too predictable. Wonderkids will pretty invariably develop to become among the world's top players, barring some serious injury or a club signing them and not playing them for years. This means if you find one they are a pretty safe bet.

Whereas if you look back about 5 or 10 years in real life, how many of the hotly-tipped rising stars from then have gone on to become world-class players? Granted, a fair few have, but far more have ended up at mediocre mid-table top-flight sides. The point is, potential is very hard to judge in real life - some players look amazing for their age when they are young but fail to show much improvement as they age.

I think the development system from FM could do with an overhaul - make it a bit less of a certainty that a player with a high PA will definitely go on to become a star. I don't have a suitable alternative to propose but it would be more realistic to see players looking like they are destined to greatness at a young age and fading into mediocrity as they fail to show the improvement that might have been expected of them. This way, a small club demanding 30m for their 16 year old prodigy will seem less frustrating as he could turn out to be a false hope anyway

[haunted1234]

A point I would like to throw into this debate (sorry if it's been mentioned already; haven't had time to look at every post) is that in FM player development is a bit too predictable. Wonderkids will pretty invariably develop to become among the world's top players, barring some serious injury or a club signing them and not playing them for years. This means if you find one they are a pretty safe bet.

you would be surprised how many people on this forum think differently, i raised this point in another topic

[dooro23]

If you could buy a player for 2m, who is soon to be worth 20m, you should have a chance of roughly 10% to achieve that. The trick would be, to be a slightly better manager/scout and to make a little profit on average or find a few more gems than others, but nothing above that like many here "demand" from FM. That works at least if you're Joe Average manager, but we all have super-scouting, with an incredibly high guarantee of anyone we evaluate to be a future world beater to become exactly that and all the other clubs are stupid for not giving us a 1000% profit! Why would you think a player's market price is what it is in the first place?!

Imagine 2 shops next to each other: Left one buys candles for 100 bucks, right one gets shouted at by us for not selling us candles for 5 bucks... Fine for me, if 5% of the candles i buy turn out to be trash, then 5 bucks would be the price. But with the current scouting and player development our success rates in FM are sky-high.

I often have 9 figure transfer windows even without buying replacements, so it is still easy to scout, buy, develop & sell.

Right now I have 9 wonderkids in my senior squad, total sum spent: 17,625,000€ - and as all the other buys that don't make it to wonderkids get sold for a profit, there's no money wasted while finding them.

That's why I'm happy that it's at least a little bit harder to fill my football nursing school and appreciate it, that some clubs throw a door in my face if i try to scavenge their grounds for profit. Now the other half of the balancing would be to make scouting more challenging or less rewarding, so either more top talents don't make it or just get misjudged, like you can't predict careers IRL as you can in FM right now.

[budisuharto]

no no no as far as im concerned thats cheating, i found this guy by doing what i do every year in the game, when i get youth intake i send scouts out to the main nations and set their seach to no older than 16, and thats how i find the good kids, on fm 12 i did this and i had 1 team in the end with 9 wonderkids in the 1st team line up which involved bargain buys and serious training, how it works now with the training i dont know how it will influence stats enough to be able to make a team like that again

how do u get your scout to target only the young ones?

[budisuharto]

i leave my scouting to the head scout, can i still get him to target only the young ones? or do i have to set individual assignment for each scout?

[DavePott]

So if you had the next Messi in your team, worth 250k, would you sell him for 5-10-15 million? I know i wouldnt. Its realistic, stop moaning and just play the game. Case closed.

[S2008]

Im quite happy with the prices I pay for newgens- Ive had to pay £12m for a then 16 year old AMC but he was rated at 5 star potential for my Man Utd team. Hes since developed well and at 18 has already paid back a fair amount of that fee.

I think the balance is just right- if you truly believe in the potential of a player and he is already recognised in the footballing universe as one to watch then you have to be prepared to pay a premium. Thats not to say that there arent bargains around- my 1st choice goalkeeper is a 19 yr old newgen who I bought for £1m from Grasshoppers and is going to be world class

[PoolFan]

So if you had the next Messi in your team, worth 250k, would you sell him for 5-10-15 million? I know i wouldnt. Its realistic, stop moaning and just play the game. Case closed.

Let me rephrase that.

'So if you had a 16yr old player of the potential of Messi playing for your part time Swedish 3rd division club who's entire value is less than 100k, would you turn down 1 million for him, or even 10 million, or in somecases 20+ million.'

That's the issue, I have no problem with teams like Porto who are well known for developing players asking for large sums for potential. What I do have a problem with is, insanely small clubs asking for values that are quite frankly insane. Waht makes matters worse is it is obvious that this was added as a artificial way of stopping teams grabbing the best youngsters around the world due to the awful AI. It's a awful solution and something that makes zero sense. SI should have simply made the clubs add in a bunch of sell on clauses etc for young players, and target goals after scoring/playing/international caps etc. This would make WAY more sense than some part time Swedish team turning down a 10 million offer for a player in their youth team who hasnt even kicked a ball.

[Falahk]

really enjoying how much more realistic the price for buying youngsters is on fm13 compared to earlier versions of the game

[lil ole me]

really enjoying how much more realistic the price for buying youngsters is on fm13 compared to earlier versions of the game

same here

I remember a few yrs back, you could virtually buy a squad of under 18`s on freebies and 5 yrs later, you destroy every opposition and get bored.

Only a few times have i found a gem of a player for a reasonable price. If they play for foreign unknown sides then they are normally cheaper than getting them from top sides, which is realistic i guess.