DAK Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 IM liverpool and im losing over 13M a month, in my 3rd season, transfer expen a month is 600k Last season i was losing 7M a month and wages has not really increased Is this a bug , just starting November and if this continues it will be unplayable, i have 2M left in balance. Run down of expen Wages- 6.6m bonuses -700k loyalty-520k staff-700k non footy-2.2m transfer-600k agent-240k match day-400k ground m-750k youth-490k scouting-12k loan-1M tax-5.7m travel=400k other800k Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
La Furia Roja Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 post your income as well? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welshace Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Many 48 monthly transfers? Many players on a lot of wages? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
athos7 Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 5.7M tax and 2.2M non-football are the only big expenses on your list, so yeah it's the taxman robbing your club. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAK Posted November 10, 2012 Author Share Posted November 10, 2012 i wonder is it a bug as i took a quick look at man utd and thay made a loss of 17M last month, though they do pay 9.6M on loan repayments iv been playing this save since the beta so maybe that has something to do with it just looked at the projection tab and it says my balance will be 2.00m, and it wants my wages down to 1M per week by 2017 Man utd projection ,they want the wages down to 700k by 2017 lol this save has become unplayable, starting again and hopefully it will be ok with the updates Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flohrinho Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 i wonder is it a bug as i took a quick look at man utd and thay made a loss of 17M last month, though they do pay 9.6M on loan repaymentsiv been playing this save since the beta so maybe that has something to do with it just looked at the projection tab and it says my balance will be 2.00m, and it wants my wages down to 1M per week by 2017 Man utd projection ,they want the wages down to 700k by 2017 lol this save has become unplayable, starting again and hopefully it will be ok with the updates That sounds indeed strange. In my save they lose between 10-15 mio. € every month main expenditure is 11 mio. € loan repayments and interest each month. So if they making a win in the middle of the season without selling any players I would def. say there is something fishy going on in your save game, probably best to report it in the bug forum and upload your save game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eple Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 It's the same in the full game. Might be an idea to be a bit cautious with signings and wages and not spend your entire budget. I went from £12m in taxes and £10m in non-football cost in 1st season to £66m and £36m respectively in 3rd season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki679 Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 It's the same in the full game. Might be an idea to be a bit cautious with signings and wages and not spend your entire budget. I went from £12m in taxes and £10m in non-football cost in 1st season to £66m and £36m respectively in 3rd season. Unless they've added the tories into the game that sounds like a bug. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar2010 Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Why do people assume its a bug before anything else? You can't possibly make that sort of judgement without seeing further evidence. Personally I seriously doubt its a bug, the most likely answer is that the OP has simply spent too much money. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eple Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Taxes might be correct, I don't know. The 'bug', if so, might be that they were too low in 1st season. Non-football cost I have no idea about. The club has grown in size so it might be related. The issue I have with it is that despite having £8m in in the bank in December and losing roughly that each month the board confirms my transfer budget of £74m and £1.140m pr week(spending slightly less than £1m). If I spend any of it I suspect the club is put into administration. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
20leGend99 Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 It's normal to lose money through the season. You'll make most of it back and more once you get the TV money plus prize money at the end of each season. You're only making a loss each month because you'll get the lions share of your income in one big chunk whereas your costs are more spread out through the season. Overall it averages out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eple Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Everyone who has played FM for more than a little while knows that, 20leGend99. The issue that is being discuss is the size of the losses (and I brought up the over-the-top transfer budget when looking at the losses - as if the board is ignoring taxes, agent- and signing-on fees). If you win PL and Champions league that will give you maybe £50m, but you would probably pay out £15m of that in bonuses, so it really doesn't cover the massive amounts of losses and only avoiding to spend the transfer money will keep the club afloat. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katarian Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Taxes might be correct, I don't know. The 'bug', if so, might be that they were too low in 1st season. Taxes in the first season will be calculated on actual accounts, so they are going to be lower as the club will have done as much as possible to avoid tax in their actual accounts. The tax from the second season onwards is "correct" according to the tax rates of the country the club is situated in. As for the original post you have limited financial options in the game that you can control. 99% of the time if you are losing big amounts of money over the whole year, it's because you have over spent on wages, bonus and transfers. Just because the board give you a certain wage and transfer budget doesn't mean you have to use it. Look at the financial screen and decide if the club can afford that big transfer fee or big contract before you sign that new player not after when you discover you are losing tens of millions every month. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevedox Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 I'm Newcastle, £700k pm wage bill, in a season where i won the league and the CL and i'm losing at least £7m a month, every month. All my transfers are paid upfront, and a lot of sales are spread over time. It's all down to tax. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodyscot Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Taxes in the first season will be calculated on actual accounts, so they are going to be lower as the club will have done as much as possible to avoid tax in their actual accounts. The tax from the second season onwards is "correct" according to the tax rates of the country the club is situated in.As for the original post you have limited financial options in the game that you can control. 99% of the time if you are losing big amounts of money over the whole year, it's because you have over spent on wages, bonus and transfers. Just because the board give you a certain wage and transfer budget doesn't mean you have to use it. Look at the financial screen and decide if the club can afford that big transfer fee or big contract before you sign that new player not after when you discover you are losing tens of millions every month. Give the clubs accounts wont have been released for this season i highly doubt that in some way they have researched the tax accounts of every team in the game to get a figure, and even if they had done so the following seasons should realistically follow them rather than the budget being hugely inflated. I would assume the only large tax charge being paid on a monthly basis is going to be income tax on wages etc (as anything else is going to be paid on profits, which if your losing money hand over fist on a yearly basis you wont be paying). Im wondering how it works however as I have a wage expenditure of about 9 million a month at the moment along with a tax bill bill of about 7 million a month which would be roughly about right where the tax to be PAYE. However to me it looks as though the income tax amount is included in both the salary expenditure, as well as separately being charged in the tax account (just from quickly adding it up, my wages seem to be about equal to my player+staff wages pre tax so this should already include the tax you will pay on player wage)so effectively it looks as though you are being charged the tax on wages twice to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
milnerpoint Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 I think for once in this game you now have to seriously watch what your spending, in all previous version there was next to no punishment for vastly overspending. I've had to really watch who i am signing for Aberdeen, making sure i only sign players i can really see myself playing, whereas in previous version i would just sign anyone and if i didnt want them at xmas i could get rid of them on the cheap, if i did that now it could cause me problems. Its made it a much tougher challenge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timtom84 Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 6 seasons in with liverpool and my tax bill was 106M and non football costs was 43.9m for the last season. This season i am losing 10.3M for tax and 4.3 for non football costs per month. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legendary Manager Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Deffo sounds like a bug...... Can someone from SI clarify? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champfan10 Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 http://www.arsenal.com/assets/_files/documents/oct_12/gun__1349166617_ARSENAL_HOLDINGS_plc_ANNUAL_RE.pdf Just had a read through this, although I'm not an accountant or have any financial background, I believe as page 48 & page 66 state, Arsenal paid £6.95m in tax on a total turnover of £243m. Now on my Hednesford save, I have turned over £29m so far this season and paid £25m in tax, which isn't anyway comparable to Arsenal's real life accounts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougar2010 Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 http://www.arsenal.com/assets/_files/documents/oct_12/gun__1349166617_ARSENAL_HOLDINGS_plc_ANNUAL_RE.pdfJust had a read through this, although I'm not an accountant or have any financial background, I believe as page 48 & page 66 state, Arsenal paid £6.95m in tax on a total turnover of £243m. Now on my Hednesford save, I have turned over £29m so far this season and paid £25m in tax, which isn't anyway comparable to Arsenal's real life accounts. That tax figure will only be for corporation tax. It won't include any PAYE or NI that is collected by companies and passed onto HMRC which is shown under tax in FM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champfan10 Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 That tax figure will only be for corporation tax. It won't include any PAYE or NI that is collected by companies and passed onto HMRC which is shown under tax in FM. The PAYE & NI made up from the player wages? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodyscot Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 The PAYE & NI made up from the player wages? I think this could be the issue, i think it may be counting the PAYE & NI in both salary expenditure as well as seperately under tax. Easy way to test if, add up all your players wages (if you use the contract view on squad screen it gives you the pretax figure per week. Times it by four to get your monthly figure and compare it against what your paying our as salaries (its obvious a rough estimate as it doesnt include staff wages etc but you dont need to be too precise). If this is about equal so your salary expenditure the salary should include tax, in which case you really should be getting hammered with several million a month tax charges Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eple Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Staff wages has a separate post under expenses, Goodyscot, but I think you guys are on to something. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodyscot Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Staff wages has a separate post under expenses, Goodyscot, but I think you guys are on to something. Oh aye so it does, you can also cheat and just do it from your current player wage total under salary but i wasnt a 100% sure if that was pre or post tax (its pre) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champfan10 Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 I think this could be the issue, i think it may be counting the PAYE & NI in both salary expenditure as well as seperately under tax.Easy way to test if, add up all your players wages (if you use the contract view on squad screen it gives you the pretax figure per week. Times it by four to get your monthly figure and compare it against what your paying our as salaries (its obvious a rough estimate as it doesnt include staff wages etc but you dont need to be too precise). If this is about equal so your salary expenditure the salary should include tax, in which case you really should be getting hammered with several million a month tax charges Okay I currently pay £1.375m in salaries per month, which is the same figure as the figure of each player and staff members salary added up before tax. Would I be right to assume that would mean that I am paying the PAYE & NI, but also paying the players salary in full, thus meaning I am paying the tax twice? Can somebody explain why I have been taxed so much, I will use last month as an example:- Total Income: £859,686 Expenditure Total: £4,726,348 Salary (ammount which was tax): £1,419,036 (£667,450) Tax: £2,550,545 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goodyscot Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Okay I currently pay £1.375m in salaries per month, which is the same figure as the figure of each player and staff members salary added up before tax.Would I be right to assume that would mean that I am paying the PAYE & NI, but also paying the players salary in full, thus meaning I am paying the tax twice? Assuming the tax figure is meant to be indicative of PAYE & NI (and with the large amounts it pretty much has to be as no other tax suffered by a football team is going to be as large at least during the actual season, you will get larger tax charges at the end of the year etc when the Corp tax is paid on profits) then yes, your salary amounts to the pretax figure of your staff/player contracts (ie what they get at the end as well as the tax paid on the wages) it then seems to pretty much add this tax amount in again under a separate tax charge. Best not to compare it during close season (as im in preseason and my tax bill just now is actually 16 mil compared to 9 mil wages) but its either that or the actual tax amount is just far far too high. Of course the other side of the coin could be that when you negotiate with a player the wage offered is actually meant to be the wage they receive (not including any tax charge) which I guess is a possibility? Ie you offer 150k a week and your basically saying that the club will pay the tax bill. That would fit with whats coming through but in that case its a bit strange showing you post tax wages in a contract negotiation it would be far better to show the total cost of wage+tax and take it out of your salary budget if this is meant to be the case. Id also doubt if this is the case that the calculation for wage budgets is properly taking into account the tax youre going to pay on wages. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Champfan10 Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Here is the in game version of what I posted:- Income Expenditure Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
treble_yell_:-) Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 As for the original post you have limited financial options in the game that you can control. 99% of the time if you are losing big amounts of money over the whole year, it's because you have over spent on wages, bonus and transfers. Just because the board give you a certain wage and transfer budget doesn't mean you have to use it. Look at the financial screen and decide if the club can afford that big transfer fee or big contract before you sign that new player not after when you discover you are losing tens of millions every month. This is utter nonsense , Clubs have 2-3 massive incomes every year : Season tickets / Tv money and prize money. Clubs in real life are losing money month on month because the majority of their revenues are not split throughout the year. Losing money ingame month on month has nothing to do with financial irresponsibility. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just-Wool Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 I think this could be the issue, i think it may be counting the PAYE & NI in both salary expenditure as well as seperately under tax.Easy way to test if, add up all your players wages (if you use the contract view on squad screen it gives you the pretax figure per week. Times it by four to get your monthly figure and compare it against what your paying our as salaries (its obvious a rough estimate as it doesnt include staff wages etc but you dont need to be too precise). If this is about equal so your salary expenditure the salary should include tax, in which case you really should be getting hammered with several million a month tax charges This sounds right. My pre tax wage bill is slightly over £1.5m a week, I paid £6.2m in wages in October according to my game, and £5.7m tax. Taxes in the UK for footballers are around 50% IIRC. Most of them end up being in the high bracket anyway, so I am paying roughly £3.1m tax per month on wages alone. Compare that to FM12 where you ended up paying peanuts in tax every month, this works out. I lost £5m a month last year and still ended up with a £20m profit in the accounts, so not really worried. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katarian Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 This is utter nonsense , Clubs have 2-3 massive incomes every year : Season tickets / Tv money and prize money. Clubs in real life are losing money month on month because the majority of their revenues are not split throughout the year. Losing money ingame month on month has nothing to do with financial irresponsibility. Read the four words in the quote before the bit you highlighted . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
treble_yell_:-) Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Read the four words in the quote before the bit you highlighted . Meh, reading comprehension is over rated anyway Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAK Posted November 11, 2012 Author Share Posted November 11, 2012 Just to let every one no (from 1st post), i have not went and spent mental money , my net spend for all 3 season together is 20M and my wages have increased by 100k per week. i have not missed out on champions league, made semi last yr, and have finish 2nd twice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Äktsjon Männ Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 I think this should be raised in the bugs forum to get some attention from SI and maybe a confirmation whether the taxes are payed twice or not. If there indeed is a problem with this it'll surely cause financial mayhem in long term games especially with AI clubs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eple Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 I mentioned it in another post in the 'all other issues-section'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legendary Manager Posted November 11, 2012 Share Posted November 11, 2012 the lack of an SI presence confirms this is a bug for me..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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