4-2-4 with 2 striker, 2 wingers ---- Did anybody try it? Does it work?

[pazmacats2]

HI,

Playing Monchengladbach currently.

We have THREE target men strikers and two good wingers (Arango left, Herrmann right), so I really want to play 4-2-4. The problem is: We suck at scoring and we suck at defending.

I tried EVERYTHING. Rigid, very rigid, fluid, TM / no TM, Playmaker / no playmaker, so I am looking for help.

In theory we need to get the ball to the wings

Left wing: Arango plays cross or through ball (which he doesn't do in my games!)

Right wing: Herrmann runs down the flank (which he does do, but he always crosses, and he sucks at playing a cross)

Midfield: Xhaka plays a long ball (which he doesn't do)

In my games this does not work. We play the ball to the flanks and back to the defender, and back to the midfield, and back to the flank again. My strikers are set to roaming, lots of creative freedom, run from deep sometimes, mentality difference of 2-8 clicks (tried everything), but I NEVER see one-twos or any other kind of interaction between strikers and midfield/wingers. So I suspect: This year's ME NEEDS an AMC.

__________________________________________________

Has anybody tried playing with 2 strikers and 2 attacking wingers? Did it work? How are you setting them up?

Maybe my players are just lazy, bad morale, etc?

[davidnio_422]

I had success with Man Utd on FM11 and 12 with 2 wingers and 2 strikers, haven't tried it on 13 yet though. Had both wingers (Valencia and Nani) on Support and Rooney and Berbatov on DLF - Attack. Also had one of the CMs on Attack and the other a DLP on Defend. Might not work on 13 as I have had problems without a tough DM.

I also played quite rigidly and without much CF. This was mainly because we were shooting too early rather than waiting for the run

[Koki]

I think 2 wingers + 2 strikers can work, It did ever since FM09 and I'm trying it currently with FM13 (very limited success so far though). The problem is, that you usually have 4 players in front of the ball when defending, so I instructed my wingers to mark the opposition's wingers. Of course, this somehow comprises your attacking power but you should concede considerably less. Can you post a screenshot of your formation and tactic settings? This will help others to get a better picture of your tactic and rises the chance that someone can help you with your problem.

PS: You can only set specific man marking during a game. Open your tactics and go to "players". Then click on Arango/Herrmann and "Instructions". Marking: Specific man and then choose the player you want to be marked (the AMR for Arango and the AML for Herrmann). Then SAVE your tactic. And after the match, load the tactic. You will now have specific man marking for every match. You might want to check the settings when playing against formations without AML/AMR and ML/MR players.

[pazmacats2]

Thanks for the answers!

The main problems: in defense when facing sides with DMC and/ or AMC (3 midfielders). Not enough pressure on the DMC and very dangerous if my CD "lock on" the AMC. I tried man marking the DMC (with my DLF), I will observe what this does.

In offense The main problem is that the wingers receive the ball in very advanced positions. I somehow solved this by completely redesigning the mentalities. My team has 4 mentalities now (difference between them is 3 clicks).

Defense: Goalie + CD

Support: Full backs + one midfielder

Midfield: other midfielder + AML + DLF

Attack: AF + AMR

It will take some time until the team gets used to this. Also form and morale makes it VERY difficult to judge whether the tactic is wrong or the players don't want to run.

[wwfan]

TC settings:

Strategy: Attack

Roles:

GK: SK

FBs: FB/S

DCs: LD/D

MCs: MC/D, BWM/S

AML/R: Wingers/Attack

FCs: TM/S & TM/A

Adjustments:

Passing More Direct

Press More

Roam More

Shouts:

Clear Ball to Flanks

Get Ball Forwards

Push Higher Up

Play Wider

Play Early Crosses

Hassle Opponent (sometimes)

This will create the opportunities for your wingers, which will result in high scoring games. You'll suffer some defensive weaknesses against the counter though, so you might want to develop a more cautious approach to see out games should you go ahead. I'd also expect one or two bad losses as the system is so open.

[AjaxNo1]

I tried 4-2-4 as I ruled FM12 with it, 1st season was fun (lots of high scoring wins/high scoring games 7-5 away to Napoli) but after threatening the Euro spots in SPL with Motherwell my team fell apart

2nd season they were terrible and after 2 wins in first 3 games they fell apart and went on an 14 game losing streak and got me sacked

I feel if I can get the team workrate up it may still work

[pazmacats2]

Thanks guys, thanks wwfan!

This does indeed work! I am using wwfan's settings with some minor adjustments (no "hold up ball" for one of the TM and one of the midfielders + "roam from position = yes" for both wingers) and the guys managed to score a ton of goals, didn't think this would work so well.

We let the other team score a lot too. So I'd better pray my goalie doesn't pick up an injury ...

Very entertaining matches to watch, lots of clear cut chances. 4-0, 3-3, and crazy differences in player ratings:

Had one match with both of my strikers getting a match rating of <5.5 while most of my defense had >7.2. Didn't really know what to tell them (we played 1-1).

A couple of insights from my first 6 or 7 games.

The one enlightening thing is: Juan Arango DOES like to play a cross, but he absolutely needs his fullback (+ everyone else) to be in "ultra attack mode" in order to find the space to do so.

The other enlightening thing is: My fullbacks suck at crossing. But my TM are very very bad-ass and they still CAN do SOMETHING with a badly played cross.

The bad thing is: We don't know how to defend. We HAVE to play quick and long balls. Mentality "control" is too slow and does NOT work! So currently we are "defending" in 4-2-4 (with 1 Anchor man and 1 DLP) while using Attacking mentality+get ball forward! I tried switching to "control", but it seems the opponent takes the initiative if we don't attack 24/7 ...

The good thing is: We aren't afraid of letting the opponent score. We were planning to attack anyway, haha!

Shouts:

When trying to score (at kickoff):

2 center midfielders (DLP(S)+BWM(S))

Get ball forward

Cross from deep

Play wider

Exploit the flanks

When trying to somehow "defend" a lead:

2 defensive midfielders (Anchor + DLP(S))

Get ball forward

Cross from deep

play more narrow (but still attacking down the flanks)

Pass to feet

clear ball to flanks

+ time wasting slider (first click of max)

Once more, thanks! I am looking forward to spending some champions league cash on some proper fullbacks / midfield working horses and wingers that are capable of "properly crossing a football" now!

[wwfan]

I was expecting that. Check out Watford's results under Graham Taylor for a historical parallel.

[MeesterCat]

Interesting - I've been having the same problems (static frontline, no movement) in attack but with a 4231. The solutions that seemed to work in FM12 don't seem to work with this match engine, so I might have to pinch those settings and shouts from wwfan and apply them to my formation.

I have always liked to have a 424 tactic like this as an emergency 'we're 2 down with 15 minutes to go' formation too, so this thread could reap double the rewards!

[wwfan]

I'm not sure if they'd work well in a 4-2-3-1. You need a set of instructions that take advantage of a five man midfield. This usually requires encouraging your FC to drop deep and getting your FBs and wingers to interact in different ways on each flank. Far better suited to Counter-Control range strategies as well.

[MeesterCat]

Ah fair enough. I have more questions, but I will raise them in a different thread so as not to derail this one.

[pazmacats2]

Still testing the balanced/attacking setup.

Some results: The setup is very streaky, I wish I was able to analyze what lead to some of the embarrassing results to be able to take counter-measures (lost 3-0 vs a rather average team, who were placed last in the league!)

However: We won at home vs Valencia (4-0) and away vs Ajax (3-0) but we also lost away vs Arsenal (7-1)!

When playing away (or "defending" a lead) we are currently playing with 2 DM, but we are still attacking (but no "exploit the flanks", no "get ball forward" and with "pass to feet" and sometimes even "retain possession" in away games), even when playing away.

The funny thing is:

After losing 7-1 vs Arsenal we won the 2nd game at home! When playing at home vs Arsenal we didn't field our two star players (Arango and Luk de Jong) since they did not perform lately. However, playing our "away" formation at home vs Arsenal we somehow managed to win! 1-0, own goal. Next to no clear cut chances for both teams.

The TM (Support) Mike Hanke has a TON of assists and/or goals already. Hanke is a hard working, intelligent, no nonsense (low flair) player, so I am quite happy this is a formation he actually performs in! I'd never buy a player like Hanke (bad technique, bad acceleration, bad finishing), but with so many long balls and so many fighting for the ball and running up and down the pitch he is one of the team's most important assets.

I THINK this formation could work very well with 2 midfield wingers (defensive wingers), but currently I don't have the players to try it.

Gladbach is not the best team in the world. But qualifying for the Champions League and winning vs Valencia, Ajax and Arsenal should be a proof that the 4-2-4 setup CAN be working.

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In real life Lucien Favre managed to get to 4th position in the Bundesliga by A) telling everyone to defend and B) seriously upping the tempo. His Gladbach side was one of the best defenders in the league (in 2011/12) who played counter-attacking football even when not on the counter. The team usually kept the ball (passing at the back) until suddenly launching very high-speed, very high-risk attacks with vertical passes and a lot of one-twos to get the ball forward as quickly as possible. Gladbach did not use crosses or long balls over the top. Success came from very good passing (Arango, Dante) and very high speed (Herrmann, Reus) together with very good teamwork on the defense.

[TimCalvin]

TC settings:

Strategy: Attack

Roles:

GK: SK

FBs: FB/S

DCs: LD/D

MCs: MC/D, BWM/S

AML/R: Wingers/Attack

FCs: TM/S & TM/A

Adjustments:

Passing More Direct

Press More

Roam More

Shouts:

Clear Ball to Flanks

Get Ball Forwards

Push Higher Up

Play Wider

Play Early Crosses

Hassle Opponent (sometimes)

This will create the opportunities for your wingers, which will result in high scoring games. You'll suffer some defensive weaknesses against the counter though, so you might want to develop a more cautious approach to see out games should you go ahead. I'd also expect one or two bad losses as the system is so open.

Great post!

Ever since FM08, the first FM that had a good 2D match engine (in my opinion), I enjoy watching matches in full highlights mode (every match), change things (if things aren't working), and enjoy the beautiful game (if they are working).

I suffered with the sliders a lot, so I think that TC is the best thing that's happened to the game, like, ever. I've read every TT&F, 'Inverting the Pyramid' and tons of posts on these forums (I'm a big fan of wwfan), I feel like my tactical knowledge has significantly improved, but there are still some things I don't understand, and I still don't succeed in translating my tactical ideas in practice.

I always wanted to try out 4-2-4, and I look at wwfan's recommended TC setting, and it would be great, wwfan, if you could give me some more explanation...

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1) Strategy: Attack.

This is something that always baffles me. I understand that it's required for a direct style of play, but one can't use the Attack strategy for full 90 minutes, surely? I always thought that dynamic changes are necessary during the match. I choose my starting strategy according to pre-match odds, and then I choose to go more defensive or aggresive, depending on how things go (and it sometimes helps, and sometimes it backfires nicely).

Also, it seems to me that when I play too aggressively, if my players start to pick up cards, knocks and/or injuries, that's my cue to switch to more cautious strategy. Is really strategy the problem, or could this be solved by shouting Stay on Feet, maybe Drop Deeper, so that my players don't ram themselves into opposition players so much?

Is it possible at all to stick to one match strategy, and just use shouts to tighten things up or become more attacking?

How would you, wwfan, develop a more cautious approach for your 4-2-4? Switch to Standard, and keep the other shouts? Or, maybe, stick to Attacking strategy, but shorten the passing length, pass to feet, play narrower, drop deeper? Change FB roles to Defend? Wouldn't that cause disjointed play?

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2) Roles: GK/Sweeper keeper. Is this really necessary? I understand that if the team pushes higher up, then Sweeper keeper makes sense, but I'm not sure that my keeper would do well in that role (his Rushing Out attribute is not very high).

I tried once the Barcelona style (again, wwfan's version), and for it to work it was also recommended that GK is set up as a Sweeper keeper, but I played with GK/Defend, and it worked quite well.

So my question is, does Push Higher Up requires a Sweeper keeper on Support duty, and why, or is this optional?

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3) FBs: FB/Support. This is something that also needs clarification, I think. Shoudn't they be set on Attack duty? Wouldn't wingers benefit from extra support from fullbacks? Or is this a way of pulling the opposition out of shape when they try to close down somewhat deep lying FBs?

Usually, TT&F suggests, as well as TC, that FBs should be set on Automatic, and that would mean that if the strategy is Attack, then FBs will be set on Attack duty. And that makes sense to me.

I also read that 'make sure you have one Attack duty in defence' (again, wwfan's words). I'm a bit confused by this, clarification would be appreciated.

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4) DCs: LD/D. I suppose the idea is to hoof the ball forward as quickly as possible, and playing with Limited Defenders supports this (along with the shouts). I prefer to play with DCs: CD/D, as long as they have the right attributes, so, my question is: Isn't More Direct passing, Get Ball Forward, Clear to Flanks enough, or playing with Limited Defenders really adds that little something special into the mix?

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5) MCs: MC/D, BWM/S. I suppose BWM is necessary, as defensively this is a rather vulnerable setup. But, I think I've seen MC/D - DLP/S, or DLP/D - MC/S combos as well (Serbia under Radomir Antic in WC2010 qualifiers, Delneri's Chievo Verona 01/02). With a good DLP supplying killer passes for wingers it's even more potent, if somewhat more vulnerable.

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6) Adjustment: Roam More. Doesn't seem necessary, because TMs don't roam. In this setup only wingers will roam, and Default roaming is enough. Unless we switch to Defend or Contain, in that case, More Roaming is necessary. But, are we going to play this cautiosly at all?

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7) Press More and Push Higher Up. I'm all for this, but what worries me is that this might compress space too much. I thought that if Mentality is high, then D-Line should be low and vice versa. What also worries me is that might also be dangerous if DCs are too slow.

On the other hand, Delneri's Chievo, if I remember well, did exactly this, and the opponents were time and time again caught offside. Their defenders had good Teamwork, Workrate and Positioning, so this was possible.

Is this recommended so that the distance between the lines is reduced, since wingers are so aggressive?

Should these settings be changed if I want to play more cautiously (or aggressively)?

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8) Play Wider and Clear to Flanks. Makes sense. I suppose this instructs the team to play as wide as possible (Clear to Flanks increases Width as well, I think), without making FBs more aggressive, something that Exploit the Flanks would do and further compress space, and we don't want that, do we?

Play Early Crosses is not available in FM11. Any way around that?

On the other hand, what to do against Narrow formations? I usually try to channel the opposition by Shouting Drop Deeper, Play Narrower, Hassle Opponents, Exploit the Flanks, and that's exactly the opposite of what we're trying to achieve here. I guess it's either/or.

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9) Hassle Opponent (sometimes). When?

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10) What Philosophy and level of CF would be best for this style of play? I'd go with Balanced, because it has the biggest mentality difference between midfielders and wingers, but that's more of a personal preference and a hunch. On the other hand, Very Fluid would make midfielders play more direct passes (because their mentality would be higher).

I guess, CF should be lower. That would reduce too risky and extravagant attempts, and make the team more defensively solid. The whole idea is to create chances by playing wide, quick, and use physicality of TMs and pacey wingers. High CF is more useful for slow passing and probing approach, I think.

But, then again, if we have skillful and creative players, why not . More creativity could be achieved with a good PM, like I mentioned before.

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11) Could this style of play be achieved with a flat 4-4-2? That would make wingers a bit less aggressive, and formation more defensively solid, but... I usually play flat 4-4-2, and my wingers rarely get behind opposition FBs, get enough space and cross effectively. They are not world class wingers, they are average (important attributes are around 13 and I'm playing in a top division in a major league), you might say that I shoudn't be playing this style anyway with players like that, but I want to, and I think it's possible, it's just that I'm not getting the best of them.

So, my question is: Is it possible to achieve this style with flat 4-4-2 and recommended Instructions and Shouts?

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12) Would it work with a TM/S - AF/A partnership up front? I like the big man-quick man combination. I would also like to know how to instruct my TM to create more chances for AF and Wingers. Pump Ball Into Box? Set TM supply To Head? Tried it, and it didn't seem to help.

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Sorry for this ultra-long post. This is my first post ever, but I'm really inspired by these ideas, and ever since Delneri's Chievo 01/02, my Holy Grail in CM and FM was to recreate that style of play, and I never succeeded. (Well, that, and the Barcelona Style).

I welcome every opinion, and I especially hope wwfan reads this, because his posts have always been very insightful. I'd like to use this opportunity to thank him for making me a better Manager, and making me want to improve. If you answer to my post, wwfan, it would be a great honour, and I would be very, very grateful.

[blackdevil]

I've used the below with balanced mentality and counter strategy and it's worked quite well. Got promoted from League 1 and reached the FA Cup final with this formation.

The IF can be changed to winger too, it depends on the players you've got. Which if they're target men type then two wingers might be better.

Depending on the game and how it's going it may be worth changing both wide men to support duty or even dropping them to the left and right midfield position. Again depending on the players available I sometimes change the right CM to either CM-support or AP-attack. As alway it's best to tailor the roles to the players you have at your disposal.

[BiggusD]

Try two DMC's with support duty. They need to be very aggressive and run around like crazy. They also need to be very physical. Your wingers will benefit from this especially if they are set to cut inside. Also, I have set both my strikers to be DLF-like, so that they come deep and make themselves available for a pass when your defense and midfield has got the ball.

This works well, although I use classic - so it will be difficult to replicate all of this using TC-only.

[pazmacats2]

I tested the 4-2-4 in all kinds of player role variations and there is only one thing that I am sure about. It's not the formation and it is not the player roles that decide about winning or losing a game. It's more about luck, form and motivation (or lack of motivation when it comes to opponents). My 4-2-4 won a couple of games against the top teams of the league and did not do very well against similar or smaller rated teams.

4-2-4 with attacking will play terrible football (passing around 60%) but this will be successful if one or two players hit good form or the team is on a run.

4-2-4 with lower mentality (or 2 DMs) has failed (even less possession). Actually the only formation (with DM) that "seemed" to work (to stop conceiding) was 4-4-2 with 2 wide midfielders and 1 AMC OR ultra-defense 4-4-2 with 2 DM and 2 wide midfielders. I usually l felt it was best to simply stay attacking until 80+ minutes.

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As a side note: My "adventurous" AssMan managed to lead Monchengladbach to position 4 when on full auto. He played 4-2-2-2 (Brazil) and the only mentality my team (media prediction 11th) was fluent in was "OVERLOAD" . This is funny since BMGs best players are 2 attacking wingers (Arango and Herrmann) and 3 strikers. Guess my AssMan knows more about football than anyone else.

[abhid30007]

fail miserably in fm2013. u will concede so many shots and will be outclassed by lower clubs than you also. You could try this formation on a counter

[StoneColdA]

TC settings:

Strategy: Attack

Roles:

GK: SK

FBs: FB/S

DCs: LD/D

MCs: MC/D, BWM/S

AML/R: Wingers/Attack

FCs: TM/S & TM/A

Adjustments:

Passing More Direct

Press More

Roam More

Shouts:

Clear Ball to Flanks

Get Ball Forwards

Push Higher Up

Play Wider

Play Early Crosses

Hassle Opponent (sometimes)

This will create the opportunities for your wingers, which will result in high scoring games. You'll suffer some defensive weaknesses against the counter though, so you might want to develop a more cautious approach to see out games should you go ahead. I'd also expect one or two bad losses as the system is so open.

Why have you chosen the target man for both strikers?

Why not DLF and AF, or TM and P?

[wwfan]

Why have you chosen the target man for both strikers?

Why not DLF and AF, or TM and P?

Because he said he had three Target Man style strikers. Both other options are perfectly fine if you have the players for them, although the shouts I suggested might not be as effective.