Tactics

[chelseafc16]

Has anyone noticed the inconsistency in tactics? One game working very well and the next the complete opposite?

[Welshace]

... Well it would depend on the opposition and how they play... you need to account for that.

[RobertPage]

Yes definitely. One game i will be dominating the midfield of a top team who plays 3 in the middle and then the next game i find my midfield being dominated by an average midfield with 2 in the middle.

[Sussex Hammer]

Are you playing with the TC and shouts? Reason being if you think about it if you do you never really play the same tactic each game bar at the start. If you use shouts through a game your tactic at the very end will be totally different to the one you started with which is why I think it's a bit of a lottery in many ways because you may win a game or lose a game on the basis of a shout. Not sure if anyone out there makes a shout that works and then they save the tactic hoping that it works exactly the same way next game!!!

Mind you I still see a consistency issue even using classic tactics which I still use. I beat Arsenal 2-1, Liverpool, 2-0, Newcastle 1-0 and drew 3-3 against Man United then didn't win a game for the next 6 and all those teams were in the lower half!!!!!

[Sampa]

How do you do classic tactics? (sorry for off topic).

But yes, I do.

Had me down as low as 18th for majority of the season with Arsenal... Luckily I had a good run the last month and a half and stayed up.

[wwfan]

Are you playing with the TC and shouts? Reason being if you think about it if you do you never really play the same tactic each game bar at the start. If you use shouts through a game your tactic at the very end will be totally different to the one you started with which is why I think it's a bit of a lottery in many ways because you may win a game or lose a game on the basis of a shout. Not sure if anyone out there makes a shout that works and then they save the tactic hoping that it works exactly the same way next game!!!

Mind you I still see a consistency issue even using classic tactics which I still use. I beat Arsenal 2-1, Liverpool, 2-0, Newcastle 1-0 and drew 3-3 against Man United then didn't win a game for the next 6 and all those teams were in the lower half!!!!!

The belief that a single method of play should be consistent against all opposition of all quality in all formations in all conditions is the reason for inconsistency.

[dave7867]

The belief that a single method of play should be consistent against all opposition of all quality in all formations in all conditions is the reason for inconsistency.

Then came Barcelona! Ever heard of them nah me neither,They play the same way no matter the opposition damning the consequences.

Yeah over the last few years the formation has changed ever so slightly but the Philosophy NEVER changes.

[dking]

Has anyone noticed the inconsistency in tactics? One game working very well and the next the complete opposite?

You have to micromanage now, more than in any other version. You need to study exactly what's going on the pitch, for a lot of the match. I've got by in past versions but it just doesn't work anymore and I've had to completely change the way I play, for better or for worse.

[Falahk]

I plugged and played the same tactic for most matches (only changed shape a few times due to injuries and such and if my regular tactic was not doing the trick), to be fair, my squad also limited the amount of different ways I could go into a match, it was good enough to get me into the CL in the first season with Stoke....no new players, a few sold to get the wage budget in order....etc

a poorly constructed or illogical tactic would probably be inconsistent thought

[Herbert Fandel]

You have to micromanage now, more than in any other version. You need to study exactly what's going on the pitch, for a lot of the match. I've got by in past versions but it just doesn't work anymore and I've had to completely change the way I play, for better or for worse.

I would change what you say slightly, to say that you have to EITHER micromanage OR have an incredible squad (related to my post above)

Playing as St. Johnstone in the SPL the simple truth is that I am too lazy to micromanage. I play the same tactic every time, barely use shouts, and I finish 2nd in the league every year. This is because I have used my human advantage over the AI to build a squad far greater than even Celtic's, and way beyond what any SPL team other than old firm could ever achieve IRL.

Despite this I am stuck in 2nd place. If I was to pay more attention and adjust my tactics when required I could probably finish 1st. I 100% like that my laziness results in relative failure, it feels satisfying to know this is the case.

[wwfan]

Then came Barcelona! Ever heard of them nah me neither,They play the same way no matter the opposition damning the consequences.

Yeah over the last few years the formation has changed ever so slightly but the Philosophy NEVER changes.

No, they don't. Guardiola prepared meticulously for every match.

The whole problem with this place is that people genuinely think that's true. You do not become the best team in the world just through talent. Hard work and preparation is vital.

[Jibby123]

No, they don't. Guardiola prepared meticulously for every match.

The whole problem with this place is that people genuinely think that's true. You do not become the best team in the world just through talent. Hard work and preparation is vital.

Well said....I read a tip top article on this recently. Will try to find it.

EDIT - Found it, quicker/easier than I thought. It's el clasico based, Mourinhio v Pep, but shows what you mean well.

http://www.barcelonafootballblog.com/8767/tactics-champions-league-clsicos-review-preview/

[themadsheep2001]

Well said....I read a tip top article on this recently. Will try to find it.

EDIT - Found it, quicker/easier than I thought. It's el clasico based, Mourinhio v Pep, but shows what you mean well.

http://www.barcelonafootballblog.com/8767/tactics-champions-league-clsicos-review-preview/

Damn it, you both beat me to it.

Also the various zonal marking articles.

That website you linked is fantastic by the way. One of my favourite reads.

[Jibby123]

It is a good site, some interesting stuff.

[wwfan]

The majority of those Guardiola has worked with can’t speak highly enough of him, though. Busquets is one of those who has been promoted from B team success with Guardiola to Champions League and World Cup glory. “Pep is identical now to what he was like then,” he explains. “He studies endlessly, prepares in detail, draws the maximum from his players and makes us ready for the opposing team."It involves many hours watching videos but also a huge knowledge as a coach and experience as a player.” His assistant, Tito Vilanova, a childhood friend, says Guardiola’s X-factor is his “contagious self-confidence. His will to win is matched by a complete belief that he’ll win and an ability to explain how to do it.”

From this article: http://fourfourtwo.com/blogs/fourfourtwoview/archive/2012/04/27/inside-the-mind-of-pep-guardiola.aspx

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[TD=class: alt2, bgcolor: #DEDFDF]Yet those fundamental lessons do not mean a lack of flexibility or invention. Nor does the faith in their identity mean ignoring the other team. Guardiola was accused by some of being tactically out-thought by José Mourinho last season or by Wenger at the Emirates. If so, it was not for lack of thought. Guardiola is every bit as obsessive a coach as, say, Rafa Benítez. "You wouldn't think so," Barça's reserve goalkeeper, Pinto, says, "but Guardiola controls every little detail." "Every decision is made according to the opposition," says one of Guardiola's collaborators. "Every one."

Messi's withdrawn role was initially employed – in 2009 – to confuse Real Madrid. Barcelona won that Clásico 6-2, Christoph Metzelder saying: "Centre-backs hate being dragged away from that position and we just didn't know whether to follow him out." As one of the staff puts it graphically: "With no No9 you leave the centre-backs to kick each other." Messi has now made that role permanent but not entirely inflexible. The reason is partly tactical, partly a response to the Argentinian's own desire. A different solution with Zlatan Ibrahimovic was aborted because of personal problems.

That means no Plan B – if by Plan B you mean a Big Man. But there are nuances and variations: plans C, D, and E. Besides, seeing tactical awareness only in terms of changing a game in course is a red herring; Guardiola would rather change the course of the game first; a successful coach ends up looking like a less interventionist coach. Against Athletic, he made his players receive on their own byline, four of them lined up around the area to receive from the keeper. "We knew they would pressure high and that risked us being dragged into long balls – which they would inevitably win," he said. Every move was 120 yards long. But if that's what has to be, so be it.

Against Valencia last week, there were three centre-backs and two wing‑backs. Within five minutes, there were also five long, uncharacteristic diagonals. The idea was to force Valencia to think twice about their high pressure. The plan did not entirely work – although Messi had countless chances – and this time Guardiola, suffering with sciatica, did make the change. On came Pedro. Messi got the goal; the assist came from Adriano, the man least expected to be included and the favourite to be removed.

There is a discernible Barcelona philosophy, a style. It is Guardiola's style, one so clear as to appear to suggest rigidity and insularity. The impression is not entirely true. When Guardiola travelled to South America, Menotti encountered a man who "reads, studies, listens and shows an enormous capacity for observation". And the observation is applied to opponents. Guardiola only knows how his team is going to play when he knows how the other team is going to play. Everyone has been asking how Arsenal will play at the Camp Nou this week. And Pep Guardiola is no exception.[/TD]

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From: http://www.redcafe.net/f7/guardiolas-tactics-barcelonas-style-323220/

[Sussex Hammer]

Messi's withdrawn role was initially employed – in 2009 – to confuse Real Madrid. Barcelona won that Clásico 6-2, Christoph Metzelder saying: "Centre-backs hate being dragged away from that position and we just didn't know whether to follow him out." As one of the staff puts it graphically: "With no No9 you leave the centre-backs to kick each other."

Always makes me laugh when people think this kind of thing is new and only done by "igenious" managers like Guardiola. In the 1980 FA Cup Final West Ham Manager John Lyall withdrew striker Stuart Pearson to leave David Cross up top on his own making a 4-5-1 formation which is well used now but totally alien then. Arsenal's centre backs didn't know what to do for most of the game and of course West Ham went on to beat Arsenal 1-0.

[hluraven]

Has anyone noticed the inconsistency in tactics? One game working very well and the next the complete opposite?

In real life, definitely. In FM, yes but not always as pronounced.

[Jibby123]

Always makes me laugh when people think this kind of thing is new and only done by "igenious" managers like Guardiola. In the 1980 FA Cup Final West Ham Manager John Lyall withdrew striker Stuart Pearson to leave David Cross up top on his own making a 4-5-1 formation which is well used now but totally alien then. Arsenal's centre backs didn't know what to do for most of the game and of course West Ham went on to beat Arsenal 1-0.

I don't think anyone is arguing that he came up with anything new or invented the wheel, rather that the myth he just sends 11 out with the same old philosophy that are good enough to win whatever and that their granny could manage Barcelona is ********. He did prepare tactics meticulously on a game by game basis, that's all.

[fmFutbolManager]

Has anyone noticed the inconsistency in tactics? One game working very well and the next the complete opposite?

Sir Alex Ferguson hasn't played the same players or used the same tactics two games in a row for like 10 years now. Okay, slight exaggeration, but the point stands, real football managers change things depending on who they're playing.

In football manager you have to do the same. I have one main formation, with two tactics: defensive and counter. With these two tactics I have the same 10 different shouts that I use depending on what is happening on the pitch. It works. If you have a solid tactic, make sure you're team are as comfortable playing defensive, counter, standard, control and attacking (you can view the familiarity of these philosophies in the main tactics screen on the left).

Once you're familiar with these philosophies and your primary formation, you can then adjust this using shouts, rather than changing the tactics. The only area I will change before a match is my passing from short to direct, depending on the opposition and how I want to play. Short if sitting deeper, for example.

I have a plan B, a standard 4-4-2 formation. It has been used once, but I try to keep with my 4-1-2-2-1 formation, which is pretty effective against any other formation out there, as long as you're covering the opposition moves. Monitor the opposition report you receive.

I've moaned. And I've moaned and moaned. Then I asked for help and I can hold my own now. I now understand what I need to look at, and when. And I'm beginning to understand if the opposition does x then I need to do y to counter. It doesn't always work out, but I don't expect it to. But it helps.

[fmFutbolManager]

No, they don't. Guardiola prepared meticulously for every match.

The whole problem with this place is that people genuinely think that's true. You do not become the best team in the world just through talent. Hard work and preparation is vital.

I think Chelsea have proved that in the Premier League with all their money and talent. And look how closely City were run against a considerably weaker (player for player) United side.

Managers and tactics are more important than the players. City would be devastating with someone like Mourinho in charge.

[Sussex Hammer]

I think Chelsea have proved that in the Premier League with all their money and talent. And look how closely City were run against a considerably weaker (player for player) United side.

Managers and tactics are more important than the players. City would be devastating with someone like Mourinho in charge.

Not strictly true because what is the point of spending millions on the best players if a good manager and decent tactics are all you need?! You can't tell me that you put Guardiola or Ferguson in charge at Reading they will then win the title? they won't because players still generally win games that's why the top teams are in the top four or whatever are always there. Yes a West Ham will still beat a Chelsea once in a while but more often than not the team with the better players will still be more consistent.

You can always over confuse things as well. It's no coincidence that Man United's poorest results have been when Fergie has tried something different from the norm and the same with City. Fergie tried a diamond and it didn't really work so recently he has gone back to 4-4-2 and it paid dividends. City were brilliant last year playing a 4-2-3-1 then Mancini started pfaffing about with three at the back and he can't get it to work consistently.

Granted I am old school, and as a manager (a real life one) I tend to use the "let them worry about us rather than us worry about them routine" and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't but you have to play to your strengths and if you worry about the opposition "too much" your own game can go to pot. Of course a degree of tactical awareness about the opposition is a good thing but not to the detriment of your own teams strengths. Like Man Utd again. Their strength has always been in their great counter attack attacking play with width and wide men so playing a diamond like Fergie tried just didn't work.

[Jibby123]

Not strictly true because what is the point of spending millions on the best players if a good manager and decent tactics are all you need?! You can't tell me that you put Guardiola or Ferguson in charge at Reading they will then win the title? they won't because players still generally win games that's why the top teams are in the top four or whatever are always there. Yes a West Ham will still beat a Chelsea once in a while but more often than not the team with the better players will still be more consistent.....

Agree with you completely on that at least. Am one of those who always thought managers get too much credit for wins, but moreso way way too much flak when they're losing. The quality of players are THE most important ingredient, which makes the irl 'Wenger resign' muggins having me miffed when it's some of his players who should think about resigning or take a voluntary pay cut.

The same in-game. No matter your tactics, or prep, if your players are less quality than the rest of your league you're fighting an uphill battle straightaway. Obviously.

And as you say about the scottish one; the over complicated tweaking in game can send you up a blind alley as well and give you problems. Keeping it simple with the best players you can get is obvious but true on FM.

[fmFutbolManager]

Not strictly true because what is the point of spending millions on the best players if a good manager and decent tactics are all you need?! You can't tell me that you put Guardiola or Ferguson in charge at Reading they will then win the title? they won't because players still generally win games that's why the top teams are in the top four or whatever are always there. Yes a West Ham will still beat a Chelsea once in a while but more often than not the team with the better players will still be more consistent.

You can always over confuse things as well. It's no coincidence that Man United's poorest results have been when Fergie has tried something different from the norm and the same with City. Fergie tried a diamond and it didn't really work so recently he has gone back to 4-4-2 and it paid dividends. City were brilliant last year playing a 4-2-3-1 then Mancini started pfaffing about with three at the back and he can't get it to work consistently.

Granted I am old school, and as a manager (a real life one) I tend to use the "let them worry about us rather than us worry about them routine" and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't but you have to play to your strengths and if you worry about the opposition "too much" your own game can go to pot. Of course a degree of tactical awareness about the opposition is a good thing but not to the detriment of your own teams strengths. Like Man Utd again. Their strength has always been in their great counter attack attacking play with width and wide men so playing a diamond like Fergie tried just didn't work.

I'm not saying it's all about the tactics and manager. Perhaps this didn't come across as I intended. My point is you cannot just chuck a good team together and expect success. There's a reason Chelsea have only won the league once in the last six years: Ancelotti.

Of course you need good players to win the league, but success is relative and if you Swapped McDermott for Mourinho, I would bet my house they'd finish higher up the league table.

My point is, that you cannot just rely on players to win you games. I usually play the same formation, and if I can the same players. My tactics only vary because of the shouts I use. So I'll swap from pushing up or playing deeper, all within the same formation, for example. These little tweaks change throughout the game depending on how I'm doing and I think this is where people are failing. Playing a fluid, attacking game as Man City and expecting to beat small teams all the time won't work because you'll have an off day (as all teams do) and you'll be caught by a team counter attacking you and exploiting the space you leave. You need to read the opposition and adjust with shouts to beat team consistently, this is my point.

United won't always go out attacking with direct passing. They won't always have Valencia attacking down the wing, sometimes he'll be more defensive. You have to change and adapt to who you're playing. Sure you can let the opposition worry about me, but if you have a slow RB and are playing against a fast LW, you know you're in for trouble, especially if they have a fast or tall attacker to get on the end of any balls that come in.

I think we both mean the same thing. Players are important, but use them wrong and it'll go bad. Real Madrid in Europe are a classic example of this.

[fmFutbolManager]

Agree with you completely on that at least. Am one of those who always thought managers get too much credit for wins, but moreso way way too much flak when they're losing. The quality of players are THE most important ingredient, which makes the irl 'Wenger resign' muggins having me miffed when it's some of his players who should think about resigning or take a voluntary pay cut.

The same in-game. No matter your tactics, or prep, if your players are less quality than the rest of your league you're fighting an uphill battle straightaway. Obviously.

And as you say about the scottish one; the over complicated tweaking in game can send you up a blind alley as well and give you problems. Keeping it simple with the best players you can get is obvious but true on FM.

Explain Real Madrids lack of European success recently? They have arguably the best squad in the world...

[Herbert Fandel]

Explain Real Madrids lack of European success recently? They have arguably the best squad in the world...

Technically

but mentally?

[CityAndColour]

The belief that a single method of play should be consistent against all opposition of all quality in all formations in all conditions is the reason for inconsistency.

Unless you're dafuge, who has made a mockery of the "plug and play tactics don't work" theory for years.

[Jibby123]

Explain Real Madrids lack of European success recently? They have arguably the best squad in the world...

True and fair point, but European success doesn't always reward the best team/players (Liverpool in 05, chelsea last year can win it). You can be out because of 10 minutes of madness no matter how good you are, especially in the latter stages where you're facing top, top players even if individually and collectively they're not quite as good as Madrid.

But fair one, I'd still argue the quality of players is the most important factor in all the factors that come together to win/lose at football. There will always be the odd exceptions; luck, bad decisions, injuries, suspensions, tactical fubars, but consistently across the board the quality of player counts most. To me anyway.

On FM as well to stop this turning in to real football thread.

[Sussex Hammer]

Fair points across the board and One United yep I hear what you are saying totally. I think this is where FM slightly falls down IMO because AI teams don't seem to have the "off days" you talk about!!! ;-)

It's a difficult one. IRL and in the game if my West Ham go to Old Trafford and win 1-0 do we win because we have better players? No. Do we win because of a managerial tactical masterstroke or is it just because Man United have had an off day? Difficult to say, probably most would say that Man Utd had an off day.

The problem with FM is it is difficult to balance it to portray realism. For instance some years ago West Ham went away at Arsenal and needed to win to have a chance of staying up. They won 1-0 through a Zamora goal but it was a real snatch and grab because Arsenal had about 30 shots on goal and Rob Green was brilliant, However at the same time Arsenals finishing was awful that day and they should have had 10. Now that doesn't really happen in the game and if it did how would we feel about it? If we benefited it would be great but if it was our team we would all be shouting about a finishing bug and therein lies the problem that it is so difficult for a coded game to generate human behaviour.

[THOG]

No, they don't. Guardiola prepared meticulously for every match.

The whole problem with this place is that people genuinely think that's true. You do not become the best team in the world just through talent. Hard work and preparation is vital.

The issue here is people conflating strategy with tactics.