Match Engine Update 13.2.1 - ME 1325 Constructive feedback here please

[Mensell76]

There are obviously a number of things in 13.2.1 that undermine tactical approaches. The super-dribbles, the inability to defend a particular type of cross, the long shooting (which is a knock on from poor attacking movement around the ball carrier). Users can minimise the dribbling and crossing by double marking great dribblers (which makes the game at least tactically controllable), but can do nothing about the lack of movement around a central ball carrier.

We could argue for a year and a day about whether the double marking should be necessary (I don't think it should and feel high players are not attending enough to their defensive duties, which is the root cause of the dribbling issue, but also think it should be a valid tactical decision if your FB is being totally outclassed). We'll immediately agree that defenders can't defend byline crosses hit from outside the area. We'll reach an agreement of sorts quickly enough about the long-shots / poor movement issue. I'll agree in an instant that there are too many long shots. I think final third attacking movement needs to be improved enough for the ball carrier to try the TB instead of the long shot, but that the amount of successful TBs in 13.2.1 is about right.

The problem, for me, is that there are too many buggy, undefendable goals from dribbles / crosses, which means that the conversion balance is wrong for the TB and long shot chances. Sort out the defending of those, improve the movement around the ball player, encourage tricky TBs above tricky long-shots, and improve the conversion rate from centrally generated chances (which will happen anyway as a knock on from the defensive improvements), and we'll have a great ME.

Thanks for this reaction. A very good and detailed description of the issues at hand and exactly the reasons why I choose to stop playing 13.2.1.

As far as Ackters remark:

I have written my post around a quote by you. So no need to belittle me by stating that "Mensell is yet another person who's completely linked my comments to something they were never aimed at probably because he's read other people reacting like they have". This is just one of the primary examples of how you react negatively to people. In just one sentence you try to put me in the corner of the dumb and ignorant around here and how did you go about it? Based on assumptions.

If I do not understand your own written words well enough, enlighten me with how you did mean them. I believe my quick reply left plenty of room to react differently.

[EX REAPER]

i agree with andy d on page 1 the game is hopeless now with players taking long shots constantly and not moving in closer or looking for space and amount of shots for goals for human teams is awful compared to ai teams i can understand them wanting to reduce the amount of times players win by 5 or more goals but im lucky if i can win a game now. it take me about 20 attempts for my strikers to score and takes the computer 1 or 2

[Hurball]

I've posted a few times on these forums with complaints about this FM, so it's only fair that I post some feedback since the new patches. In short - the game is infinitely better now than when it shipped, but it's still not perfect.

The far post crossing seems to have been tuned down - I concede very few drilled crosses hammered in at the far post first time now. These used to account for 60% of my goals against, so it's good to see a bit more variety and realistic goals against now for the most part.

Players actually tackle now. A minor possible side effect seems to be that I gain a LOT of bookings and have had 7 red cards this season - 6 from two yellows. How much this is down to my pressing tactics I don't know.

Keepers are better, but still make bizarre kicks straight to the opposition too often.

However, whereas the defence side of things is much tighter in the new patch, the attacking side of things still needs work:

Attacking players persist in shooting from range despite my best efforts to tell them not to. The slider set to "never" on long shots still sees my AMC blazing over constantly, and 50% of my shots being from range (and off target).

Through balls are non-existent. I've tried to play an AM just off a lone striker with the aim being for them to link up and create chances (they're both fast players), but the striker (set as a poacher) seems to love holding up play and passing backwards rather than looking for forward runs.

My lone stiker is less efficient at taking chances than my wing backs. I've drawn or lost a number of games where my CCCs outnumber the opponent's 4-1, with Di Natale missing them all. If a similar chance falls to my wing backs, they'll finish it. I play a 5-3-1-1 formation, but my striker (and AMC) has been outscored by both wing backs, whose instructions are to stay wide and cross in.

This seems to be associated with confidence, and I've seen this crop up far too often on past FM games too - strikers should be affected by it, but not to the extremes that these games take it to. Di Natale was missing around 2-3 CCCs a game!

Simple headers at the far post are missed 90% of the time.

Those criticisms aside, the game is actually playable now, and hopefully SI can keep up the good work in fixing some of the more annoying problems with the match engine - especially the lack of through balls attempted.

[MacZidane]

What i see is people being too polite for what they paid for! What i also see is Miles Jacobson talking only about "FM the best simulation football game ever" and stuff!

What i wanted to see is people demanding explanation and SI providing us information of what is going on, an official apology and some kind of "refund".. coz, okay, you're the best (so far) but we raised this game so high..

Apologize for what?

[Lazylen]

Well for me the fun is over. After 17 losses (13 of them with 1-0) in 34 games (16 wins and 1 draw) with a title candidate, the fun is over. Weird thing is, last four seasons i won the title with no problem, but ever since the last patch i cant win anymore.

I dominate 99% of the games, but always seem to conceide fluke goals and then see my team fail at any try to equalise in the remaining part of the game. My goalpost-bar average is 3-4 a game, whilst at least hitting 5 CCC. Also it aint a strikerproblem. Last seasons my strikers scored a combined total of 65 goals in the league....

Back to FM12 for now!

[dftone]

Things like these are a total buzz-kill and are ruining the experience for me.

Why did the defenders make such a bad decision? It can't be their stats because to make such a horrendous mistake their decision stat would have to be -18. Both of them hesitate to intercept the ball and it looks like they're intentionally leaving it to the keeper.

[video=youtube;UiN9XsQIDZU]

[Robert the Spud]

dftone, that is just a terrible back pass which has caught out your last man. Of course your CB's should have reacted better, but it was the pass in the first place.

[Chris21]

I wonder how many people actually go back to FM12 when they've said they're going to.

[Robert the Spud]

FM 12 had a beautiful ME!

[Cleon]

FM12 had more major flaws even in the final build than FM13 currently does.

[FM Addick]

Not sure if this is known, but since the last update I have 2 issues with match engine:

1 - slight pause before each goal

2 - Yellow cards appear on the bottom of the screen at the start of the match!

I have a JPEG, dunno how to upload

[Kriss]

Not sure if this is known, but since the last update I have 2 issues with match engine:

1 - slight pause before each goal

2 - Yellow cards appear on the bottom of the screen at the start of the match!

I have a JPEG, dunno how to upload

No need in this case they're both known issues, thanks.

[RTHerringbone]

Not sure if this is known, but since the last update I have 2 issues with match engine:

1 - slight pause before each goal

2 - Yellow cards appear on the bottom of the screen at the start of the match!

I have a JPEG, dunno how to upload

Both are known issues and raised as bugs. The first apparently goes in some cases if you take the 3D settings down from Auto to 60Hz/FPS (can't remember which, at work at the moment).

The second is a timeline issue - it retains the events from the previous match I believe.

[FM Addick]

No need in this case they're both known issues, thanks.

Thanks - can you point me in the direction of the thread?

[Keyzer Soze]

I wonder how many people actually go back to FM12 when they've said they're going to.

I can talk for my own experience.

After the release of FM2013 i really hated the game. The first version of 2013 ME it was awful in my opinion, so after a couple of weeks playing the game i think to myself that was enough and went back to play FM2012.

And i play FM2012 for about 2 hours, before i realise that... the ME from 2012 was worst.

It was a strange feeling, because until the release of FM2013 i was loving FM2012 and i trully believe that the ME was great, but after playing FM2013, with a different ME (with the new ball movement and the player detection movement) it became obvious to me that the ME from 2012 had so many flaws and features that dont make much sense in the football world.

It's very hard to compare both ME. It was easy to compare the ME from 2010 with the one from 2011 and 2012, because the set of rules were the same, with improvements. But with FM2013 we are not talking about an improvement... its something NEW.

So, i think that most people that say they go back to FM2012, will probably feel the same way after a couple of hours playing the game. The ME from 2013 have many issues to be solved, but even with all this problems its way better and real!

[Keyzer Soze]

Not sure if this is known, but since the last update I have 2 issues with match engine:

1 - slight pause before each goal

2 - Yellow cards appear on the bottom of the screen at the start of the match!

I have a JPEG, dunno how to upload

The second issue happen to me once, but after i leave FM, and load up again never show up again.

[kilik]

every time i come on the forum i just pray that i see a new thread for 13.2.2.

[Kriss]

Thanks - can you point me in the direction of the thread?

There are sevral in the Bugs Forum.

[Keyzer Soze]

every time i come on the forum i just pray that i see a new thread for 13.2.2.

I suggest you give yourself a vacation from this forum... for a couple of weeks!

[RTHerringbone]

I have just re-read the first 2 pages of this thread, and the pleasing thing is that all of the main issues were mentioned by that point (the day of the patch release on 24/12/2012).

A lot of the posts since then have been further instances of the same main issues, a few rants, a bit of Ackter bashing, but critically nothing "new".

[GunmaN1905]

I'm not playing this game until you fix the keeper/penalty issue.

First in the Cup final my DL (Santon) backpasses to GK almost from corner, ball goes between GK's legs and hits the post. Then opposition striker scores, of course.

Now in Supercup final first Akinfeev runs with the ball from edge of the box to almost center line and injures himself in the process.

20mins after that my DR backpasses to GK (Bardi, substitute) who does a Robinson and I concede.

Then on penalties I miss 4 out of 5, and all of my takers had at least 13pk taking and 12 composure.

I won't even mention +10 long shots every game.

And I'm supposed to continue playing to see all of my work going to dust because of some bug (yes, it's a bug if I concede goal scoring chance twice per game) that can be easily fixed.

[Candre168]

This game feels more and more like ping-pong every year.

Has anyone here ever WATCHED a full FM match? It's about as close to real football as it is to American Football. It's impossible, even with Barcelona playing 'slowly' to implement a composed, pass aware tactical system. Players generally resort to hoofing it to the wings and firing shots at goal from 40 yards out despite having passing options. That is, if they can spend 1 minute on the ball without being fouled or having the ball go out of play, or having another midfield battle ping pong session.

And god forbid they actually get a decent shot on goal, half the time they'll be offside or it'll hit the woodwork.

Then you have defenders that play like they've all smoked a ton of weed, particularly fullbacks who are pretty much irrelevant in this game (you can test this out if you want, stop playing a back four and you'll find you defend much better).

All these unnecessary, over complicated, poorly implemented additions like 'tax' and 'press conferences' mean nothing if the ME isn't working properly.

Oh and before someone says, 'It's your tactics'. I'm talking about my style of play AND the AI's.

[fmFutbolManager]

FM12 had more major flaws even in the final build than FM13 currently does.

That's why people prefer it

[Kriss]

I have just re-read the first 2 pages of this thread, and the pleasing thing is that all of the main issues were mentioned by that point (the day of the patch release on 24/12/2012).

A lot of the posts since then have been further instances of the same main issues, a few rants, a bit of Ackter bashing, but critically nothing "new".

Exactly what I said after a week of the last ME thread, some things never change

[Hanga]

Hitting the woodwork still seems very high, 5 times in a game last night and I'm up to over 13 times in the league from 8 games.

This is definitely a problem.

Here's some statistics for you...

There are WAY to many woodwork shots in the ME !!!

I'm through my first season with Danish club AaB, the game was started with the newest patch.

33 league matches + 7 cup matches = 40 matches

In these 40 matches there was none less than 57 shots on woodwork (33 for my team, 24 for the opponents). This is 1,42 woodwork shots per match.

The worst example was a cup match where I had 8 shots on the woodwork... EIGHT !

Mods, if you want I can upload the save game or match files.

[RobertPage]

I'm noticing players who are asked to mark the edge of the area are often following the ball into the area which means when/if the ball drops outside the area there is loads of space for an opponent. I don't set a player to the edge of the area for him to track the ball backwards into the area when there is really no need

[keeper tom]

Sorry for this post but if a Moderator or Admin could tell me why they made the change to the ME it would really make my day because all I have seen so far in response is "It's for the better" and "It's a step we had to take". If it was then how come and what is better about this ME ?????????????????????????

[Kriss]

Sorry for this post but if a Moderator or Admin could tell me why they made the change to the ME it would really make my day because all I have seen so far in response is "It's for the better" and "It's a step we had to take". If it was then how come and what is better about this ME ?????????????????????????

Read though this whole thread and it's all explained, if you skip the garbage it won't take very long.

[keeper tom]

Ok I'll have a look

[TSH]

I'm not saying you have to. But you do have to understand how to create space for a through ball. I don't agree that there's that much wrong with through balls in the ME (although as I said there are some instances of dodgy decision making in good positions). Statistically the amount of them is a lot closer to reality than ever before. There's obviously too many long shots but the right option in most of these instances is NOT a through ball. Instead players should be more willing to commit defenders by running at them through the centre and they should be more patient in the build up bringing players in with short backwards and sideways passes. People are simply expecting those route one through ball goals from earlier ME versions to return and I for one am seriously hoping this is not catered to.

In real life it's not difficult to instruct an AMC to produce through balls and the attackers to look for space. I am not talking about succesful through balls, just the ability to produce them. If my team is not set up properly then I would see a lot of unsuccesful through balls. Then I would try to correct my tactics. That's they way it should be working. Being generaly obstructed by actually making any TB in the first place, because the ME has decided that they will be unsuccesful, is bad design and a source of confusion.

The game doesn't have the ability to teach you from your mistakes. Unless you play it by its rules, then it's very difficult to understand what is wrong. That is why it needs a MAJOR change in the way tactics are set up and played out, in conjuction of course with the A.I. and how the ME depicts the action.

Now THAT would be an effort I would gladly support.

[baros2011]

Sick to death of this rubbish game. I've played this game since the mid-nineties but this version truly is awful. Purely because of the match engine. The match engine isnt fit for purpose. I've read all the tactics forums, done all I'm meant to do, the game just doesnt work. Players do not follow tactical instructions. The long shot issue is a game-breaker, defenders and keepers are so ridiculously inconsistent. The ME just needs to be ripped up and start again.

So disappointed with a game I was looking forward to.

[keeper tom]

FM12 had more major flaws even in the final build than FM13 currently does.

No way. If it did, why are more people annoyed with the game and shouting about more problems than FM 12 ??

Definitely the case. I haven't seen so many annoyed people on the forums in years.

[keeper tom]

Sick to death of this rubbish game. I've played this game since the mid-nineties but this version truly is awful. Purely because of the match engine. The match engine isnt fit for purpose. I've read all the tactics forums, done all I'm meant to do, the game just doesnt work. Players do not follow tactical instructions. The long shot issue is a game-breaker, defenders and keepers are so ridiculously inconsistent. The ME just needs to be ripped up and start again.

So disappointed with a game I was looking forward to.

Exactly the point I'm trying to make but I have never had a great response.

[Jibby123]

No way. If it did, why are more people annoyed with the game and shouting about more problems than FM 12 ??

Definitely the case. I haven't seen so many annoyed people on the forums in years.

You think?? Every year is the same here imho. Google back.

In good old AssMan/Scout star ratings for FM at Amazon UK feedback (albeit with all of just a couple of 100 giving rating and feedback) is:

FM13 3.5 stars

FM12 3.5 stars

FM11 4.0 stars (woot woot)

FM10 4.0 stars (toot toot)

FM09 2.5 stars (ouch)

[MacZidane]

No way. If it did, why are more people annoyed with the game and shouting about more problems than FM 12 ??

Because previous versions of the game had an ME which was incredibly easy to exploit. That was probably its worst flaw. Then there was the corner glitch, and the non-existent collision detection.

There are people who have offered constructive feedback on FM13's faults. There are also people who have just ranted incoherently. Unfortunately the latter makes up the majority, and of those people, a very large percentage are only ranting because they can't win.

This year's game makes you work harder than any previous version. By and large, one single tactic won't let you win every game. To get the very best out of the game, you need to work at it, and this is an aspect many people don't have the patience for. The ME is therefore an easy target for the anger.

However, anyone who knows what they're talking about can clearly see the advances in the ME this year, and while still not without its faults, is light years ahead of the dated engine from previous versions.

[Cleon]

No way. If it did, why are more people annoyed with the game and shouting about more problems than FM 12 ??

Definitely the case. I haven't seen so many annoyed people on the forums in years.

I guarantee you it does. And the reason why people are less vocal about those bugs are because they favoured the human manager. Your striker could score 100+ goals a season easily yet people accepted these kind of bugs (not everyone though ofc) but a lot of people who've posted in here were happy to use this in FM12, hence a lot of the frustration now it doesn't work.

[Kriss]

No way. If it did, why are more people annoyed with the game and shouting about more problems than FM 12 ??

Definitely the case. I haven't seen so many annoyed people on the forums in years.

I've seen the same number every year just about different things.

I'll explain one more time Tom.

Over two years ago it became apparent that the FM11 ME had reach the limits of adjustability. i.e. it simply could not be improved further and things like the corner bug couldn't be eradicated without a major rewrite of whole sections of code.

In addition if it was going to be taken to further heights new sections such as collision avoidance had to be introduced.

It was decided that the FM11 ME would remain virtually unchanged into FM12 so that two years could be devoted to the major overhaul.

This year it was decided that the new ME should be introduced, controversial maybe but the reasoning is sound, the only true test for it is to expose it to the hundreds of thousands who buy the game and who will detect every tiny flaw in no time atall.

Keeping it in house for a further year might have resulted in a 10% improvement, releasing it now means improvements will be quicker and far more rigorously tested.

The downside is that it hasn't gone as well as most of us hoped so far and of course updates necessarily take far longer than any of us would rather wish.

My conclusion is that it was totally right to do it this way and while people have every right to feel disappointed at this stage they do need to see the bigger picture too.

We can also have confidence in SI to do everything they can to make rapid steps forward in resolving the current issues.

[keeper tom]

I've seen the same number every year just about different things.

I'll explain one more time Tom.

Over two years ago it became apparent that the FM11 ME had reach the limits of adjustability. i.e. it simply could not be improved further and things like the corner bug couldn't be eradicated without a major rewrite of whole sections of code.

In addition if it was going to be taken to further heights new sections such as collision avoidance had to be introduced.

It was decided that the FM11 ME would remain virtually unchanged into FM12 so that two years could be devoted to the major overhaul.

This year it was decided that the new ME should be introduced, controversial maybe but the reasoning is sound, the only true test for it is to expose it to the hundreds of thousands who buy the game and who will detect every tiny flaw in no time atall.

Keeping it in house for a further year might have resulted in a 10% improvement, releasing it now means improvements will be quicker and far more rigorously tested.

The downside is that it hasn't gone as well as most of us hoped so far and of course updates necessarily take far longer than any of us would rather wish.

My conclusion is that it was totally right to do it this way and while people have every right to feel disappointed at this stage they do need to see the bigger picture too.

We can also have confidence in SI to do everything they can to make rapid steps forward in resolving the current issues.

Thankyou for the great response. I apreciate it and can understand why a game would want to improve but the people that don't come on these forums must be wondering what is going on.

Of course I want te game to get better, I just don't enjoy it as much this year and have sadly seen more bugs than FM 12.

Well I hope the updates keep rolling out and make the game better for everyone

[S2008]

I've seen the same number every year just about different things.

I'll explain one more time Tom.

Over two years ago it became apparent that the FM11 ME had reach the limits of adjustability. i.e. it simply could not be improved further and things like the corner bug couldn't be eradicated without a major rewrite of whole sections of code.

In addition if it was going to be taken to further heights new sections such as collision avoidance had to be introduced.

It was decided that the FM11 ME would remain virtually unchanged into FM12 so that two years could be devoted to the major overhaul.

This year it was decided that the new ME should be introduced, controversial maybe but the reasoning is sound, the only true test for it is to expose it to the hundreds of thousands who buy the game and who will detect every tiny flaw in no time atall.

Keeping it in house for a further year might have resulted in a 10% improvement, releasing it now means improvements will be quicker and far more rigorously tested.

The downside is that it hasn't gone as well as most of us hoped so far and of course updates necessarily take far longer than any of us would rather wish.

My conclusion is that it was totally right to do it this way and while people have every right to feel disappointed at this stage they do need to see the bigger picture too.

We can also have confidence in SI to do everything they can to make rapid steps forward in resolving the current issues.

I agree with their reasoning behind releasing the ME but a little bit of caution would have been nice- ie being told that its still a work in progress before folk have shelled out their hard earned cash. As it is those of us who arent happy with the state of the ME are left with no way of being refunded and are essentially stuck with it until SI get it right.

That, to me seems like a bit of a PR disaster and a lot of folk, me included, are going to be less likely to make a release day purchase. I was a little hacked off with last years game as well because one of the main features ie the Add and Remove League function not only didnt work but was a real gamebreaker with the infinite number of players that were added to the game until it spiralled out of control.

[Romanista.]

In real life it's not difficult to instruct an AMC to produce through balls and the attackers to look for space. I am not talking about succesful through balls, just the ability to produce them. If my team is not set up properly then I would see a lot of unsuccesful through balls. Then I would try to correct my tactics. That's they way it should be working. Being generaly obstructed by actually making any TB in the first place, because the ME has decided that they will be unsuccesful, is bad design and a source of confusion.

The game doesn't have the ability to teach you from your mistakes. Unless you play it by its rules, then it's very difficult to understand what is wrong. That is why it needs a MAJOR change in the way tactics are set up and played out, in conjuction of course with the A.I. and how the ME depicts the action.

Now THAT would be an effort I would gladly support.

although i agree with matsonn mann that on previous games through balls to the striker(poacher) was way too effective, there was nothing wrong with through balls to wingers, inside forwards, or attacking midfielders, which are all non-existent in this ME. how many times do you see a long ball played in to space for your wingers/inside forwards? 0 how many times do you see an inside forward cut inside and send a through ball to the other attacking midfielders? 0

just look at this picture, ridiculous, he is even a left footer which means he is in perfect position to send a ball to the striker that has beaten his marker. but what does he do instead? wait 2 seconds and shoot hopelessly straight at the GK.

other things ive noticed that i havent seen mentioned much:

* hitting the bar from hopeless headers, far away crosses.

*fullbacks being too adventurous(not the excessive running with ball issue). i was playing on counter and my RB decided to leave his man and position to go into an attacking midfield position.

*extremely poor movement from inside forwards on the wings. in all the patches. cutting inside is highly ineffective.

[jujigatame]

I've seen the same number every year just about different things.

I'll explain one more time Tom.

Over two years ago it became apparent that the FM11 ME had reach the limits of adjustability. i.e. it simply could not be improved further and things like the corner bug couldn't be eradicated without a major rewrite of whole sections of code.

In addition if it was going to be taken to further heights new sections such as collision avoidance had to be introduced.

It was decided that the FM11 ME would remain virtually unchanged into FM12 so that two years could be devoted to the major overhaul.

This year it was decided that the new ME should be introduced, controversial maybe but the reasoning is sound, the only true test for it is to expose it to the hundreds of thousands who buy the game and who will detect every tiny flaw in no time atall.

Keeping it in house for a further year might have resulted in a 10% improvement, releasing it now means improvements will be quicker and far more rigorously tested.

The downside is that it hasn't gone as well as most of us hoped so far and of course updates necessarily take far longer than any of us would rather wish.

My conclusion is that it was totally right to do it this way and while people have every right to feel disappointed at this stage they do need to see the bigger picture too.

We can also have confidence in SI to do everything they can to make rapid steps forward in resolving the current issues.

I agree that the new ME has potential to be far, far superior to FM11 and FM12, but as far as I can see, releasing the 2nd patch when they did was a big mistake. Before that the ME may have been a bit light on shots but it looked reasonably like real football and produced largely realistic scorelines. The 2nd patch swung things way too hard in the other direction and now the game is borderline ridiculous even after the rushed 3rd patch. I can't even imagine how their large-scale stress tests didn't pick up on these imbalances. It's somewhat unfathomable to me that someone thought it was in a releasable state and ok'd it to be pushed out the door.

[Eomi]

I'm a longtime FM player who rarely posts here (I haven't logged into my account in ages). I do play FM quite a lot, however, and have owned every version since FM 2008. Since then I've logged thousands of hours playing FM, and I always watch my entire matches. I prefer 2D to 3D as well, though I've found that 2D Classic is extremely laggy and jumpy in the current patch (which is odd, because I have a powerful CPU and the 3D engine runs without a hitch even at the highest graphics settings). In 2D I may miss some of the finer details of how players interact with each other around the ball, but that's always been an abstraction in FM anyway. The higher level tactical movement of both teams around the pitch is more interesting to me, and easier to see in 2D.

Which brings me to the reason I'm posting... I don't have the litany of problems other people have with the current ME. It looks more like real football than any previous ME, in my opinion. I actually find myself watching in 3D because those on-the-ball interactions are feeling much less abstracted than they used to. FM is getting to the point where it's not just simulating the outcomes of football, it's simulating the actual process and appearance of football. Which is wonderful.

The ME, however, does suffer from one glaring flaw: friction. This is especially apparent when watching in 2D. The ball simply does not stop once it has been kicked. During a recent match I was coaching I posed myself a question: "Which of these passes would, if left alone, stay in-bounds." The answer is, very very few. Unless a pass is directly to its intended target (or an opponent), the ball almost inevitably will run out of play. I've been keeping tabs on this thread, and I think many of the problems people are having with the ME stem from this issue. Too many wingers dribbling past defenders? Easy to do when they need only boot the ball down the wing and outrun the full back because the ball just keeps going. Too few through balls? It's tough to make a pass that even the fastest striker can run onto when the ball just keeps going and going. Too many own goals? At least in my case all of the own goals I see are due to the ball moving too quickly (and not slowing down) for a defender or keeper on a back pass.

Overall, my impression of the ME has been that it gets the details right and the bigger picture wrong. The version of FM I've spent the most time with is 2010 (because I have a very long-running save game that I don't want to give up). The ME in 2010 was flawed and buggy in many ways, but it gets the big picture right despite getting so many of the details wrong. I understand that 2013 is essentially a full re-write of the ME, and that it's a work in progress, and I applaud SI for trying to model football from the ground up instead of from the results down (my interpretation of the difference between the 2010-2012 ME vs the 2013 ME). In the end this should produce a much more realistic and attractive experience.

With that in mind, my opinion is that the most useful thing to tweak and play with right now is the ball physics. Let it slow down more when it's sliding along the pitch. That alone, I believe, would be a huge step in the right direction.

[Kriss]

- ie being told that its still a work in progresss

We were told that several times, we were also given a chance to look at a Beta version even before the demo to judge for ourselves, there were plenty of chances to opt out till later if you were concerned at all.

[MacZidane]

I'm a longtime FM player who rarely posts here (I haven't logged into my account in ages). I do play FM quite a lot, however, and have owned every version since FM 2008. Since then I've logged thousands of hours playing FM, and I always watch my entire matches. I prefer 2D to 3D as well, though I've found that 2D Classic is extremely laggy and jumpy in the current patch (which is odd, because I have a powerful CPU and the 3D engine runs without a hitch even at the highest graphics settings). In 2D I may miss some of the finer details of how players interact with each other around the ball, but that's always been an abstraction in FM anyway. The higher level tactical movement of both teams around the pitch is more interesting to me, and easier to see in 2D.

Which brings me to the reason I'm posting... I don't have the litany of problems other people have with the current ME. It looks more like real football than any previous ME, in my opinion. I actually find myself watching in 3D because those on-the-ball interactions are feeling much less abstracted than they used to. FM is getting to the point where it's not just simulating the outcomes of football, it's simulating the actual process and appearance of football. Which is wonderful.

The ME, however, does suffer from one glaring flaw: friction. This is especially apparent when watching in 2D. The ball simply does not stop once it has been kicked. During a recent match I was coaching I posed myself a question: "Which of these passes would, if left alone, stay in-bounds." The answer is, very very few. Unless a pass is directly to its intended target (or an opponent), the ball almost inevitably will run out of play. I've been keeping tabs on this thread, and I think many of the problems people are having with the ME stem from this issue. Too many wingers dribbling past defenders? Easy to do when they need only boot the ball down the wing and outrun the full back because the ball just keeps going. Too few through balls? It's tough to make a pass that even the fastest striker can run onto when the ball just keeps going and going. Too many own goals? At least in my case all of the own goals I see are due to the ball moving too quickly (and not slowing down) for a defender or keeper on a back pass.

Overall, my impression of the ME has been that it gets the details right and the bigger picture wrong. The version of FM I've spent the most time with is 2010 (because I have a very long-running save game that I don't want to give up). The ME in 2010 was flawed and buggy in many ways, but it gets the big picture right despite getting so many of the details wrong. I understand that 2013 is essentially a full re-write of the ME, and that it's a work in progress, and I applaud SI for trying to model football from the ground up instead of from the results down (my interpretation of the difference between the 2010-2012 ME vs the 2013 ME). In the end this should produce a much more realistic and attractive experience.

With that in mind, my opinion is that the most useful thing to tweak and play with right now is the ball physics. Let it slow down more when it's sliding along the pitch. That alone, I believe, would be a huge step in the right direction.

Excellent post, and I agree with you to an extent about the ball physics, but ask yourself how many times the ball stops in open play IRL. You very rarely see a stationary ball during a passage of play (other than when it gets held up, on a muddy pitch for example).

Some of the long, aimless passes in game DO tend to have a bit more zip to them than they maybe should, but this isn't something that affects the game to a great degree IMO. Certainly not in my experience anyway.

[fmFutbolManager]

We were told that several times, we were also given a chance to look at a Beta version even before the demo to judge for ourselves, there were plenty of chances to opt out till later if you were concerned at all.

To be completely objective, Kriss, when buying the game there's no disclaimer on the packaging to say it's 'work in progress'. Plus, 13.2.1 is a far cry from 13.0.0 (or what ever the demo version was). I think people are just frustrated that this year the ME appears to have gone progressively worse, whereas previously people were willing to accept that usually by November you'd have a satisfactory ME to work with.

[Rowe23]

The defending since the update is absolutely shocking. Before anyone says its my tactics, its already been agreed that there is a problem, but i must say surely such an error should have been picked up in testing prior to its release. It's affecting my game so much that its becoming unplayable to be honest! Now i know that is my own choice/opinion but come on SI sort this out how long will we have to wait for a ME update. Don't make us wait till the database update sometime in mid feb/early march!!!!

[Kriss]

To be completely objective, Kriss, when buying the game there's no disclaimer on the packaging to say it's 'work in progress'. Plus, 13.2.1 is a far cry from 13.0.0 (or what ever the demo version was). I think people are just frustrated that this year the ME appears to have gone progressively worse, whereas previously people were willing to accept that usually by November you'd have a satisfactory ME to work with.

The game wasn't a work in progress, we're just talking about the ME here, anybody buying FM with no pre knowledge (for the first time) you'd expect to do a little bit of research which would have left them in a position to make conclusions.

Those of us who frequent these and most other FM related forums had no reason not to be reasonably au fait with what was going on.

The only people who genuinely fit the bill of "innocent bystander":) are those who were bought it as a gift .

The ME hasn't got progressively worse, it's had one out of three updates that took it the one step back we really hoped wouldn't happen but were warned was possible.

General opinion as far as I can gauge it is that the previous update was at least a step in the right direction.

[bailarinasesino]

2 weeks without playing, yet no news

[billyboyeden]

Genuine question. I'm not a particularly savvy computer guy so what cause the me to be so different to so many. I have been playing a save since release from l1 to the prem in England with a basic 442, BMW and Ap in midfield, Dlf and Af up top and have not seen anything particularly out of the ordinary, no huge score lines, no massive mazy dribbles etc. in another thread, I mentionsed people trying to beat the me and not the opposition. Could that be causing issues?

[Kriss]

2 weeks without playing, yet no news

There won't be any news until there's some news to give, when it does happen it won't be kept hanging about.