Progressive Scouting Idea - Good or Bad?

[tts0]

Hi everyone,

I would like you to share your opinion with me about an "progressive scouting" idea that I came up with a while ago.

What is that? It's basically the more "real - life" scouting idea, including scouts actually missjudge - not only - players' star raitings - but also -their atributes. All tied up with (now) usless "watch the player for X matches" option, which can help scouts to get to know better players they watch and hence their atributes as well.

In my opinion, it's ridiculous that scouts can't actually missjudge the players' atributes right now despite of their scouting abilities and time they spend watching footballer.

What do you think?

[LilSaint]

i've actually just been wondering about the point of judging CA & PA for scouts. I have a scout with 12 judging on both, and another with 20 on both.. The two of them always give me the exact same report about a player. i don't think they should 'misjudge' but poorer scouts should give you a more vague report i think. Fifa 13's system works well in that respect. A good scout will tell you a players rating is between 74-78, a lesser scout will say it's between 64-84 for example.

[haunted1234]

the only difference between a 12 and 20 PA acout is that on some rare occasions as far as my experience goes, the 12 point guy sometimes gives 5 stars where the 20 star guy gives 4,5 stars

but other than that, theres not much difference, i find it anyway unrealistic that someone can judge youth players so accurate

[THOG]

It's a good idea, but I think implementation would be very difficult. Essentially, every club would need to have its own individual database and that could be a disaster in terms of file size and processing speed. The current "masking" system certainly can be improved, but one huge benefit is that it's very efficient.

[MasterOfSuspense]

I would have what is basically a variation of "fog of war" - your scout has a basic ability depending on his CA - he doesn't actually give you stats out of 20 but would say "player x is excellent in the air" - however - it's his opinion and is entirely accurate depending on his hidden CA - so his "excellent" could be average in your assessment of the player

so basically you scout him with 2 or 3 scouts to get a better picture of his perceived ability and only get the actual rating out of 20 after you sign him or have had the player on trial

TBH I would do away with the 1-20 ratings altogether and have more basic poor, good, excellent etc ratings for each attribute that are basically the opinions of your staff - you would therefore be more likely to pick him on performances rather than his attributes

How many times have you had a striker that has scores goals with a 4 in finishing totally out performing someone who has 20?

Most people would pick the guy with 20, regardless of form and performances, simply because he has 20 for finishing

I know that scoring goals is a lot more than just his finishing stat but you get many cases in real life of a seemingly lesser player keeping a better one out solely on his performances

[Stephanie McMahon's Secret Lover]

Yeah let's make the GAME even more complicated.

[keeper tom]

Yeah let's make the GAME even more complicated.

In all fairness would this actually make the game more complicated? If you're talking about people that can't count then you have a case

[LilSaint]

Yeah let's make the GAME even more complicated.

it's not about further complicating the game though, is it? what's the point in scouts judging CA/PA atm ? might as well hire a scout with 1 on judging PA, he'll give you the same scout report a world class scout would get. That's just not right imo

[Stephanie McMahon's Secret Lover]

it's not about further complicating the game though, is it? what's the point in scouts judging CA/PA atm ? might as well hire a scout with 1 on judging PA, he'll give you the same scout report a world class scout would get. That's just not right imo

The game should not reveal PA at all. In real life PA is a combination of age with CA. Simples.

[THOG]

I don't see why scouts should be providing a PA estimate anyway. In real football, scouts judge "potential" by comparing current ability to age. Wonderkids are considered future stars, but countless players with high potential are overlooked and don't emerge as established stars until later in their career. I don't see why a scout should be able to determine that a 17 year-old CA 40/PA 200 player has the ideal potential to be a world beater. The only function that being able to scout PA really serves is to allow player clubs and big clubs to get ALL the top youngsters for cheap at a young age and prevent any overlooked gems from slowly rising through the ranks of smaller clubs. This further widens the big club/small club gap as it means that small clubs aren't really able to develop youth to strengthen their own teams and sell for large fees. Additionally, the big clubs are already so loaded with talent that it typically leads to many of these players just going to waste in reserve squads.

If you think about it, the ability to scout PA and identify non-wonderkid future stars is at the root of a lot of problems, all for a feature that is not in the least bit realistic...

The game should not reveal PA at all. In real life PA is a combination of age with CA. Simples.

[wwfan]

If you think about it, the ability to scout PA and identify non-wonderkid future stars is at the root of a lot of problems, all for a feature that is not in the least bit realistic...

Good call. Perhaps a scout could comment on the maturity of the player and suggest that as he matures he could/should develop a little/lot. Could/should would relate to current maturity + professionalism, little/lot to the scout's best guess on his potential (which needs to be less accurate than now).

You then have scouts specialised in analysing specific skills, so you can only get an accurate picture of all his attributes through a long term scouting project.

[THOG]

Good call. Perhaps a scout could comment on the maturity of the player and suggest that as he matures he could/should develop a little/lot. Could/should would relate to current maturity + professionalism, little/lot to the scout's best guess on his potential (which needs to be less accurate than now).

You then have scouts specialised in analysing specific skills, so you can only get an accurate picture of all his attributes through a long term scouting project.

Good idea, though my personal preference would be to keep PA completely "invisible" to the player. Its supposed to be more of an abstract game mechanism anyway, and it makes more sense to just have scouts looking at CA/maturity + a predicted development rate (ambition, professionalism, etc.). That's reminiscent of some of the more interesting ideas for a PA-free development system, and while this would preserve PA, it would feel much more true to life.

Besides, this game obviously needs more heartbreaking realizations that that determined, hard-working regen who always listened to your recommendations, made you his favoured personnel, looks up to you as the father he never had and fought his way into your first team through impressive youth performances just isn't quite going to make it as a viable long-term replacement for that aging star who he was always intended to replace.

And it definitely needs more infuriating realizations that that smug, troublesome regen who refused to be tutored, didn't want to learn any PPMs and flatly rejected your generous contract offer before signing for your rivals on a free is going to turn into the next big superstar.

[Govnar1]

This would be an improvement as instant x-ray vision that FM scouts currently have is just bizarre. I still hope that SI will eventually include option to turn on complete fog of war.

[treble_yell_:-)]

Yeah let's make the GAME even more complicated.

You're right of course.

What we should actually do is just ask SI to ship a version of FM scout in the box, the ridiculous scouting system already manages to tell you how good a 15 year old is going to be after 1 quick report, might as well go the whole hog and just tell us the CA/PA.

[Stephanie McMahon's Secret Lover]

You're right of course.

What we should actually do is just ask SI to ship a version of FM scout in the box, the ridiculous scouting system already manages to tell you how good a 15 year old is going to be after 1 quick report, might as well go the whole hog and just tell us the CA/PA.

Yeah lets have a need for 654685489549 scouts to be employed to get an accurate picture of a player.

I'm sure I need to scout Messi (for example) 45 times before I know what his attributes are.

I'll say it again just in case the intelligently challenged are still with us. IRL PA is CA with age!!!

[Zilkin]

The scouting system that has FM is just about as realistic as just directly using an editor to see players CA/PA values. The fact there is pretty much no chance of error also makes it extremely boring.

[Mons]

Yeah lets have a need for 654685489549 scouts to be employed to get an accurate picture of a player.

I'm sure I need to scout Messi (for example) 45 times before I know what his attributes are.

I'll say it again just in case the intelligently challenged are still with us. IRL PA is CA with age!!!

I see the point you're trying to make but saying anybody else who disagrees with you is intelligently challenged [sic], makes you look far from the sharpest knife in the drawer, I'm afraid.

CA and PA are not real-life terms, you know. Irl, players have a number of skill sets at which they are good and others at which they are less so. The rate at which they improve (or not) is dependent on the coaching they receive and the willingness they have to want to improve. Moreover, the position they play in and the instructions that they are given also impact on their effectiveness.

[x42bn6]

Also, do managers really rely on scouts for all their scouting needs? A manager himself can provide a judgement on a player, even with imperfect information (i.e. a YouTube video with terrible music). A manager also gets information from agents, friends and even his own scouting when he watches Match of the Day, although the information will of course vary in quality. We've seen cases where Sir Alex leaves Mike Phelan in charge of the team during matches while he goes off and scouts himself. And all this information is not necessarily first-hand - the greatest scout only has a limited brain capacity so it is likely that a lot of his knowledge comes through contacts.

So the reality is that fog of war needs to happen, and The PA Question needs to be answered, but there is a lot more to it than just scouts scouting.

[LilSaint]

I see the point you're trying to make but saying anybody else who disagrees with you is intelligently challenged [sic], makes you look far from the sharpest knife in the drawer, I'm afraid.

CA and PA are not real-life terms, you know. Irl, players have a number of skill sets at which they are good and others at which they are less so. The rate at which they improve (or not) is dependent on the coaching they receive and the willingness they have to want to improve. Moreover, the position they play in and the instructions that they are given also impact on their effectiveness.

i agree with this completely.

[NobleZarkon]

I'll say it again just in case the intelligently challenged are still with us. IRL PA is CA with age!!!

That's simply not true - you can have two players with the same skills and the same age and scouts will be higher on one than the other IRL.

[CaptainBanana]

I paste a text i wrote in wishlist thread:

1 / i think we need a new scouting system.

it's not normal to know a player after 2 days, and too easy to find very good player, specially in south america and africa.

The CM 2010 system was a good start with the "range system".

ex: scout a player, and in his caracteristic you see: stamina: 7 -18, wich mean it's between 7 and 18.

and more good are your scoots, more right are the prediction.

Small team with poor scoot would never get the right caracteristic, just range, so we are more able to get a bad player and fail.

I think it's not a shame to check what others management games do. specially when it's good.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/306914-What-s-that-A-new-Wishlist-Thread-What-you-would-like-to-see-in-future-FM-versions.?p=8163495#post8163495

[THOG]

That's simply not true - you can have two players with the same skills and the same age and scouts will be higher on one than the other IRL.

That's what wwfan's comment gets at. Rather than just look at current ability, scouts could give an indication of a youngster's Ambition and Professionalism and recommend those who appear most likely to quickly develop into a quality footballer. The difference with the current system is that there would be no guarantee of how much further they will actually develop.

Of course, this can work both ways. In many cases (as in real life), scouts will make mistakes. There are countless examples of the "next big thing" failing to develop just as there are countless examples of players not turning into superstars until they hit their prime in their mid-to-late 20's. Basically, the game should have more Jermaine Pennants and more Falcaos, but the current scouting system prevents that from happening.

[Stephanie McMahon's Secret Lover]

That's simply not true - you can have two players with the same skills and the same age and scouts will be higher on one than the other IRL.

Two players, playing at the same level, the same number of games, with clubs of roughly the same size and ability and are the same age will have their PA in real-life judged around about the same.

Name me two from the above description that aren't.

[LilSaint]

Two players' date=' playing at the same level, the same number of games, with clubs of roughly the same size and ability and are the same age will have their PA in real-life judged around about the same.

Name me two from the above description that aren't.[/quote']

what does club size have to do with any players CA/PA ? Shall i tell you where Eden Hazard comes from?

quality of club staff and players determination/ambition are what form a player IRL.

[Cleon]

Two players' date=' playing at the same level, the same number of games, with clubs of roughly the same size and ability and are the same age will have their PA in real-life judged around about the same.

Name me two from the above description that aren't.[/quote']

Kyle Wakler and Kyle Naughton when they still played for us (Sheffield United). Everyone knew back then that Walker would be the better player and one of the best right backs in the country in a few years time. Yet at the time you could argue Naughton was the better player although not much between them at the time.

[Recury]

Kyle Wakler and Kyle Naughton when they still played for us (Sheffield United). Everyone knew back then that Walker would be the better player and one of the best right backs in the country in a few years time.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but how did everyone know?

[Cleon]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but how did everyone know?

He applied himself better off the field and was always looking to learn. He was a better professional and out of them both (very talented for their age) the coaches always had more faith in Walker due to what they were seeing off the field and in training. All things can be equal but if the coaches/scouts see a player has more Ambition and Professionalism then they'll tend to favour him.

That's what wwfan's comment gets at. Rather than just look at current ability, scouts could give an indication of a youngster's Ambition and Professionalism and recommend those who appear most likely to quickly develop into a quality footballer. The difference with the current system is that there would be no guarantee of how much further they will actually develop.

Of course, this can work both ways. In many cases (as in real life), scouts will make mistakes. There are countless examples of the "next big thing" failing to develop just as there are countless examples of players not turning into superstars until they hit their prime in their mid-to-late 20's. Basically, the game should have more Jermaine Pennants and more Falcaos, but the current scouting system prevents that from happening.

[Al_Pacino]

Being told that a brand new regen is "injury prone" when he has been in-game for a couple of days and never played any kind of football (nor suffered any injuries at all) is very unrealistic.

I think hidden traits/attributes like that should only be revealed over a long period of time...

[Lord Rowell]

I think this is a good idea that could work .

It should only be implemented with the full version of FM, not the classic mode.

If this was done, I'd suggest that some attributes e.g. physical ones, should be easier to scout than others, perhaps mental ones.

For example, I've seen many a real-life case of people thinking a player is good off the ball, and / or has good anticipation, because he's quick. Stick him in a higher league and those mental attributes get found out for what they are.

[SCIAG]

Kyle Wakler and Kyle Naughton when they still played for us (Sheffield United). Everyone knew back then that Walker would be the better player and one of the best right backs in the country in a few years time. Yet at the time you could argue Naughton was the better player although not much between them at the time.

Naughton was two years older tbf.

I think there's a bit more to "real life PA" than "CA factoring in age"- sometimes, for example, you'll have a very quick/strong player who you know isn't going to develop as much as a more technical player.

[lonestar190]

I like this idea but would add that different stats should be easier/harder to scout. Physical stats (speed, jumping, pace) should be fairly easy to scout, and perhaps should not require a scout. Mental stats, on the other hand, should take extensive scouting and perhaps not be totally clear until the player has been at your club for a period of time.

Edit - noticed this idea was recently suggested - so I agree with it as posted above.

[Krald]

I *like* being able to find out how good a player is and could be, if I had my way, CA/PA would be visible in the game right away, I just find it makes the game a lot simpler and less-time consuming. That said I understand some could be frustrated in a way - but making scouts less accurate for lower attributes than they are right now would make LLM impossible, as you can only afford crap scouts there. What makes more sense is that less-able scouts can accurately tell both the potential and the current ability of players up to a certain standard, but the wonder kids, the players who are going to be greats, maybe not as well. So a scout at 8 judging PA would maybe consider a player at 90 CA/170 PA as good a prospect as someone who was at say PA because he just doesn't know for the telltale signs of one that is destined for greatness.

A cap on spotting the true greats and recognising them as greats makes a lot more sense to me than huge inaccuracies.

Also, I suppose reputation of the player, league and club should define if a player could be can be just "scout reported" or needs the more extensive.

But I really do think this should be rolled into the attribute masking option - if you have it on, you get a more in-depth scouting system, if you have it off, it's just as it is now. Some people would rather have a good idea of the actual possible potential - I mean really, it is just a potential, often players fall short in FM of their actual PA.

[Mons]

I *like* being able to find out how good a player is and could be, if I had my way, CA/PA would be visible in the game right away, I just find it makes the game a lot simpler and less-time consuming. That said I understand some could be frustrated in a way - but making scouts less accurate for lower attributes than they are right now would make LLM impossible, as you can only afford crap scouts there. What makes more sense is that less-able scouts can accurately tell both the potential and the current ability of players up to a certain standard, but the wonder kids, the players who are going to be greats, maybe not as well. So a scout at 8 judging PA would maybe consider a player at 90 CA/170 PA as good a prospect as someone who was at say PA because he just doesn't know for the telltale signs of one that is destined for greatness.

A cap on spotting the true greats and recognising them as greats makes a lot more sense to me than huge inaccuracies.

Also, I suppose reputation of the player, league and club should define if a player could be can be just "scout reported" or needs the more extensive.

But I really do think this should be rolled into the attribute masking option - if you have it on, you get a more in-depth scouting system, if you have it off, it's just as it is now. Some people would rather have a good idea of the actual possible potential - I mean really, it is just a potential, often players fall short in FM of their actual PA.

Personally, I'd much rather see it become much more difficult to uncover hidden attributes. We've all read reports of players, even established ones sometimes, being scouted multiple times before scouts and managers make their mind up. On the flipside, you often read about players' ability and quality being evident on the first scouting mission.

It's hard to implement something like this in FM, but I'd ensure that not even the best scouts (JPA/JPP 20/20) would be able to uncover all the hidden attributes in one scouting mission, especially of a player whose reputation is quite low. At present, the system in FM means that a very good scout can display all the masked attributes of a previously-unknown player from the Zambian 2nd division in one report which imo is quite unrealistic.

I like the suggestion by lonestar below that physical attributes should be revealed quite quickly as it makes sense since they are evident. Next should be some technical and mental attributes (such as first touch and workrate, for example), but the remaining attributes could take a while to be uncovered, depending on the scout's attributes. Perhaps some might only be displayed if the player is watched during a match (which might be tricky for a player in a league which is not loaded).

The scouting system, and the related star system, are due a major overhaul imo. In the current FM system, scouting gives an indication to a player's PA too frequently and too correctly. A scout's initial impression irl will certainly not be as clear-cut as 'he will be a good Premier League full-back in the future' and 'he has no real weaknesses'. Something like that would only be pronounced after many scouting missions. Initially, he might say something along the lines of 'recent performances and word on the scouting grapevine lead <scout> to think that further scouting for this player might be worthwhile'.

Moreover, bad scouts should be less decisive in their judgements and more vague, or outright wrong, much more often. I agree with Krald, though, that bad scouts should not be wildly wrong too often, but judgement of PA should not be as quick or as spot-on by a bad scout, and the range thereof should be much larger than that of a better scout.