Has there ever been a realistically difficult FM/CM or has it always been the way the game is?

[Flub-A-Dub]

Perhaps it's the way you can view players you've never heard of's profiles with ease, maybe it's the match engines, maybe it's naturally discovering the nuances and weaknesses of a video game's processes and taking advantage of them, but it seems FM is and has been far too easy. The reason given is always that people will talk about when they're doing well, not when they're mid-table, but even if that's what's happening, there's still a large percentage of players who are reaching the Premier League with non-league teams in a few years, and winning European finals after beating Man Utd 6-0 on aggregate and whatever in the knockout phases.

In theory, such a meteoric rise should happen around once in a million, but it's a somewhat regular occurence.

I wonder, has there even been a realistically (or as close to realistic as a game could get) difficult edition of FM or CM, or have they all been easier than they could be?

In FM 07 I managed Tottenham and won the Premier League many times, several in a row, I think it includes a run of 9 in 10 seasons, and a couple of Champions Leagues. My transfer dealings made Spurs the richest club in the world and in later years I had a budget of £200m - £400m because of the players I could sell for crazy prices. I even won England a trophy. Oh yes.

In FM 06 I was in charge of Real Madrid. Yes, it's Real, but even the best managers who have come their way haven't eased through the stages of the Champions League while playing a second 11 in the league and still keep winning.

In CM 01/02 I remember taking charge of Schalke who had been relegated, winning the UEFA Cup (a bug with the patch entered the same teams regardless of position in the second season) and promotion (which isn't surprising) in the first season, then topping the table of the top division the next season (haven't finished that season). Also remember taking charge of a mid-table or near-relegation Atletico and suddenly topping the league by a whole bunch of points. Massive dominating run there. :/

I'd have to go back to CM 93/94, the expansion to the very first CM, for a consistently but realistically tough game (that I've played).

I also remember bumping into a site of a guy who was intricately recreating real life tactics in FM 12 or 13. He was winning every game 3-0 playing as Stoke with proper Stoke tactics.

What about you? Think it's, not necessarily EASY, but too easy in general? Would it take a complete overhaul to make it realistic to real life management, or just a couple of features added or removed?

[Keyzer Soze]

I think it's always been the same. Perhaps this year, FM is a little bit hard... but nothing special.

The major issue, is that after 3 or 4 years the game becames easier... simple because you can build better team when compare with the AI.

That kind of results that you talk about (beating Man Utd 6-0 and others) it's very hard to happen in the first couple of seasons, but it becames easier further ahead.

As this, happens in all FM that i play... since the beginning.

[Herbert Fandel]

At the end of the day you will always be a human against a bunch of 1s and 0s.

I find FM13 harder than before, although the transfer market is still woefully used by AI, and too easy to exploit (sign for free, sell for profit x ∞)

[Jibby123]

I would agree with Keyzer and Herbet, it's always been the case that after a few season your intelligence will always beat the AI in squad building and transfers so it becomes easy, especially if you are in a league where money comes easy and even moreso if you are in the Champions League where it's silly money. That's why personally when I get to that stage I resign and start again at a new club.

AI squad building and it's transfer policy improvements will resolve that, but to match your brain on doing so is maybe asking too much this century, especially if you know what to look for. When you're there it makes it difficult not to win just by hitting continue.

You can make it harder for yourself by managing a club that will never compete in the market, but that's not for everybody.

[siambluebird]

Also try the LLM rules.

[Majick]

Something to consider is that it's a game - anyone putting in their time will expect to see progress, and no-one really wants to spend decades trawling through the lower leagues.

[RBKalle]

Something to consider is that it's a game - anyone putting in their time will expect to see progress, and no-one really wants to spend decades trawling through the lower leagues.

Fair, true and underrated point!

Not even the most hardass and insane LLM guru would drool at the idea of spending 10 seasons floundering in League Two before stealing a promotion just to start the sloooow building process all over again... (assuming he won't drop down the following season)

Anyway I can't really remember a version of CM/FM where I struggled to win (even those I just played for one-two seasons before getting bored with the whole game).

Older versions were probably a bit more balanced because of regens. Having older players reborn as young supestars prevented human managers from taking too much advantage of AI's lack of squad building skills.

But even back then, it was just a matter of keeping an eye on retiring superstars to sign their 18yo clones.

But I daresay as the game got more complicated, the easier it has become to destroy the AI in a matter of 5-6 seasons.

When the game was relatively straightforward, there were much fewer factors that could "confuse" AI clubs...

[AjaxNo1]

The thing that makes it slightly easy although Im in my 4th season and on my first good run now is the cold heartness of it, you can buy and sell players without much come back the board moan a little but mostly you get away with it, so you can have a high player turn over sell off your expensive players to make profit and not deter players from coming to you

[BiggusD]

I expect to rocket up the leagues when I start at the bottom. Actually, I wouldn't bother playing this game much if it was so realistic that I couldn't expect to overachieve. That would be awfully dull. It would be like playing a roleplaying game stuck at lvl 1; you could be awfully good at everything mechanics-related and everything, but the point of exploration and adventure would be lost...

[Jelle Slaets]

I think it's a pretty simple combination of things that make it happen:

- Scouting is too powerful, so it's pretty easy to reliably get good prospects

- Good prospects develop to reliably and fast, so they can quickly reach their potential and be amazing, or make you lots of money

- It's easy to have a big squad of world beaters, and no one will ever complain, and cause money is a non issue, it will just remain simple to keep this squad

I think if finances become more realistic, and scouting / player development becomes less reliable, the human manager will need to:

- Spend more transfer money and wages on established players to compete, not just quality regens at lower wages.

- Have a bigger squad size, to host more prospects. (Just from personal experience, I always spend the first weeks in my new career games, getting rid of about half the players at my club, to end up with a ~ 22-25 player squad. Down from the 40 or so players there are at the start.. This will then also cost a lot more money.

I hope the game will become more realistic in the financial model, where it would actually reflect most teams struggling to break even, not just have them all running massive profits easily.

[AjaxNo1]

I think it's a pretty simple combination of things that make it happen:

- Scouting is too powerful, so it's pretty easy to reliably get good prospects

- Good prospects develop to reliably and fast, so they can quickly reach their potential and be amazing, or make you lots of money

- It's easy to have a big squad of world beaters, and no one will ever complain, and cause money is a non issue, it will just remain simple to keep this squad

I think if finances become more realistic, and scouting / player development becomes less reliable, the human manager will need to:

- Spend more transfer money and wages on established players to compete, not just quality regens at lower wages.

- Have a bigger squad size, to host more prospects. (Just from personal experience, I always spend the first weeks in my new career games, getting rid of about half the players at my club, to end up with a ~ 22-25 player squad. Down from the 40 or so players there are at the start.. This will then also cost a lot more money.

I hope the game will become more realistic in the financial model, where it would actually reflect most teams struggling to break even, not just have them all running massive profits easily.

People would kick off if scouting was less reliable lol they already moan they dont tell you how much to pay

I think having to scout a few times to get the full report would be a good idea

and the gutting the squad thing, its what I do and it goes to the point I said before its hard to gut the squad in real life with real personalities where as on the game you do it buy new players and nothing happens

Its like what Liverpool are trying to do but on the game you would take it to the next level and sell all the older high wages players and instead of buying Joe Allen and Borini you would have quality players for half the price in there

[Toney]

Three words:

Financial Fair Play

Go Platini!

[Flub-A-Dub]

Something to consider is that it's a game - anyone putting in their time will expect to see progress, and no-one really wants to spend decades trawling through the lower leagues.

Fair, true and underrated point!

Not even the most hardass and insane LLM guru would drool at the idea of spending 10 seasons floundering in League Two before stealing a promotion just to start the sloooow building process all over again... (assuming he won't drop down the following season)

You don't have to stay at one club if you don't enjoy that.

[QWERTYOP]

I think this is by far the hardest version i've ever played. My FM playing friend agrees. Neither of us have been able to get into it this year.

[Herbert Fandel]

I think this is by far the hardest version i've ever played. My FM playing friend agrees. Neither of us have been able to get into it this year.

I 50% agree with you.

Hardest version I have ever played. Only reason I have been able to get into it again.

I still agree 100% with all the comments about the AI managers being morons over the long term as killing the game.

[Eastwood]

Totally agree with Jelle Slaets. I can send my scouts out and sign 5 potentially world class youngsters between 16 and 19 for sometimes below £10m. Within only two seasons you can have these players all developed and performing as good as some of your top players in the World.

Not sure how SI can improve this other than increasing computer intelligence in squad building. Every single version you see the same old top clubs wasting top money on average players who sometimes don't even play at all. Possibly have less chance of players "making it". Look in real life hundreds of players come and go as the next big thing, yet look how many actually make it to be top standard.

[RBKalle]

You don't have to stay at one club if you don't enjoy that.

If the game were more realistic, moving around would barely matter because there wouldn't be much improvement from one Blue Square club to the next one... It'd be horizontal, not vertical

The best case scenario would be a long and bumpy road all the way to League Two, hoping to land a job at a relegation candidate at the next level, impressing other clubs enough to keep on climbing the ladder.

But if a less forgiving gameworld, it'd take you 10 years just to attract the mild interest of a yo-yo club in the Football League.

[Nobby_McDonald]

I'm still playing my FM2011 save. It has taken me 26 seasons to reach the Championship from the Northern Premier League First Division South with Newcastle Town. In that time I was relegated twice and I only remember successive promotions being achieved once. That's a reasonably realistic timescale.

[martinji]

Keep in mind that the posters on here, who have taken the time to sign up to a forum about the game, are not a representative sample of the whole FM player base. I would expect the people on here on average put in considerably more effort to the game than the average punter.

That said I agree with basically everything that's been said. The game is unquestionnably easier than real life would be, but do we really want a real life difficulty simulation? I don't think I do. More of challenge from the mid-long term AI squad building would be nice but if it was truly realistic I rather suspect my career would usually consist entirely of going nowhere or failing at a couple of non league teams and then not being offered any more jobs ....

[Lankylars]

On one hand, I definitely wish that the game presented a more realistic challenge - i.e. a much longer timeframe for dominating success. On the other hand, I'm at the point in my life where I don't have 1000+ hours to devote to a game save. If the game were to become more realistic re: timeframe to build a world-conquering team, I'd never be able to achieve success. I like knowing that it will probably take me only a few seasons to reach the Champions League and win, or to achieve promotion to the top flight and become a domestic force.

[Big Marv]

I think what has to be remembered is that each incarnation lasts only ~1 year, so people need pretty swift success rates, or they will have achieved very little when the next version is out. Combine that with the people who are casual fans and maybe play a season or less per month, if it was too difficult it would only be the die-hard fans who would achieve anything, and a massive chunk of the market would be lost. The only game I play is FM, but there are many gamers on here that play FM, Fifa, call of duty or whatever is the vogue action/adventure/strategy/shoot-em-up and those guys SI want to remain as fans.

Bottom line is, once you have a solid tactic/training 90% of the time it will work at any club, just need time and the right players, I know that's how I play. I guess if you wanted to make it more difficult on yourself, when you move clubs or start a new game, forbid yourself from using the tried/tested approach that has worked for you in the past?

[Stephanie McMahon's Secret Lover]

For every person who finds it easy I bet there is 50 who find it difficult. It's bound to be easy if you've played the game for as long as you have.

However I think the game needs a lot more options for BOTH those who find it easy and those who find it very difficult.

[ScotchWhisky]

One of the things I've noticed is that so long as I get a player to agree to terms with me, it doesn't seem to matter how many teams he is negotiating with (or their stature), he will almost always pick my team. The thing is, you can really screw players on their salaries too, especially if they will be a backup or part of your rotation. Just decrease their salary demand by a lot and increase the appearance fee. Then you don't pay them on off weeks or weeks they don't start. Also, giving them a multi-year contract (almost all players I sign get three year contracts) and adding a simple annual pay raise seems to go a long ways in getting them to accept your demands, even if the pay raise in three years is still far less than their initial demand. This works great because I can often get players for a bargain then sell them after a year if I get promoted or find other better players.

[Flub-A-Dub]

It's bound to be easy if you've played the game for as long as you have.

Three seasons?

Combine that with the people who are casual fans and maybe play a season or less per month

One reason I think the label 'casual fans' is stupid is because it's often insultingly misused.

I guess if you wanted to make it more difficult on yourself' date=' when you move clubs or start a new game, forbid yourself from using the tried/tested approach that has worked for you in the past?[/quote']

I don't have a cheap tactic or formation. I use the right tactics that suit the attributes for the squad. If anything, that's one of the most realistic parts of the game.

[Neil Brock]

People always state that the AI are terrible at building squads but this isn't strictly true. If you look at the CA levels for say the 16 best players at the club at the start of the game and compare it 10 years in, very often it's at least at the same level (unless the club have encountered a massive blip in the road, say a relegation). The user definitely does have an advantage when it comes to discovering players I'd say. If you want it to be a harder experience it's very easy to do so - limit yourself to certain 'rules' in game. The LLM is an example of a way to play and make the experience more 'realistic'.

Yes it's very easy to look at the 'star' system and use that as the be-all and end-all in regards to player signing, but you can just look away and dig out those players based on say average rating or performances at youth/youth international level. This is all only in my opinion of course.

[balldoktor81]

but it would be nice to have an option to mask/hide the potential rating (Stars in this case) and instead just a more detailed informations/ feedbacks from your scouts. Someone on this board also mentioned the idea of different way to display ratings. if your scouting staff does not have any kind of knowledge about a player, you will have to scout him in first place. you get more or less feedback, depending on the reputation and skills of your scouting staff. i.e. first scouting report might rate his ratings in the range from 1-20/5-15//12-16, depending on the quality of your staff. The second will be more accurate, more like 3-18/8-12/14-15. just an example. And you would have to scout him on several occassions to get detailed and complete feedback. Maybe smaller clubs/less competent scouts would have to monitor players even longer to make some final conclusions about the player, they're scouting. this would make it more realistic and would benefit players who choose/ or a forced (board expectations/ small Clubs with little to no money) to choose to go that route. I guess Neil, you and the other guys already discuss similar stuff in order to improve the overall gaming experience. i like that you and the other guys are monitoring the threads on this boards. Maybe my two cents might inspire you guys. Have a nice WE!!!!

[Stephanie McMahon's Secret Lover]

So in all FM/CM's you've played you have only managed THREE SEASONS???

I doubt it. The game is naturally easier for those of us who have played all the incarnations of FM/CM.

Like I said for every person like you 50 people find it difficult.

[Flub-A-Dub]

So in all FM/CM's you've played you have only managed THREE SEASONS???

I doubt it. The game is naturally easier for those of us who have played all the incarnations of FM/CM.

Like I said for every person like you 50 people find it difficult.

No, no. It took three seasons of FM 07 and CM 01/02 to find success, although, officially, even less than that. Before FM 07 I had only played CM 93/94 and CM 01/02, hardly relevant experience. I had played FM 06, but only for about a season's worth and I cheated the whole way.

[Jibby123]

People always state that the AI are terrible at building squads but this isn't strictly true. If you look at the CA levels for say the 16 best players at the club at the start of the game and compare it 10 years in, very often it's at least at the same level (unless the club have encountered a massive blip in the road, say a relegation). The user definitely does have an advantage when it comes to discovering players I'd say. If you want it to be a harder experience it's very easy to do so - limit yourself to certain 'rules' in game. The LLM is an example of a way to play and make the experience more 'realistic'.

Yes it's very easy to look at the 'star' system and use that as the be-all and end-all in regards to player signing, but you can just look away and dig out those players based on say average rating or performances at youth/youth international level. This is all only in my opinion of course.

Not so much saying they're terrible. For AI, as games go, I think they're good. Just saying they won't match a long-term experienced human player and if you could better that as a games maker I'm guessing you'd be a genius (and not be making games). But that's the same for any game out there, and at least on FM you have alternatives....as in the great thing about the game is you can choose your level (managing at a club with no funds is a challenge!!) and as you say set yourself challenges; never spend over £2m on a transfer, wage cap yourself and one of the best saves I did was in France with a French nationality only player self-imposed rule. Or there's the editor (best feature by far imho) to make the game as you want it to be in terms of challenge.

Where I mean too easy is taking over say a Manchester City and just hitting continue against AI.