Match engine issues - through balls, crossing, defending, injuries...

[Sarmatian]

Hello, everyone.

I'm looking for some tactical input for my Juventus side and I'm beginning to be somewhat frustrated by the match engine, namely I'm not really sure whether the problem is with me or with the engine, so I'm looking for help from tactical gurus like Cleon, wwfan, lam... Of course that doesn't mean that I'm looking for help only from them, if anyone has some ideas, advices, tips - please do share them.

First I want to say I'm definitely not a novice. I've played every FM/CM since the first one on my Amiga and I'm more than decent in setting up a tactic. Even though I've visited the forums to look for inspiration and ideas, I never once downloaded a so-called "plug-and-play" tactic. I've taken great care find the perfect tactic for my players and/or perfect players for my tactic. I generally refused to use no collision exploit in previous versions and went to great lengths to create a tactic that is not one-dimensional, that's solid at the back and where goals can come from many different sides. Depending on the team, after I few seasons, when the team was truly my own, I usually went to dominate without really ever having to even tweak the tactic since it was so multidimensional. Winning by itself wasn't enough, I had to do it in a proper way.

That's pretty much the case now. It may sound silly that I'm feeling somewhat frustrated with my Juventus save in FM13, since I've only finished the first season and in that season I won Serie A being 16 points ahead from the second-placed. I also won the Italian Cup and Super Cup, was 1st in CL group stage ahead of Barcelona and Dortmund, all the while being plagued by injuries. I was knocked out in quarter final of CL, mostly due to injuries (Giovinco, Vucinic, Pepe and Giacherrini were injured).

Okay, sorry for the long introduction, onto the problem - this is my tactic

It's the basic 4-2-3-1 tactic. Used to be 4-5-1 earlier but I switched when I got Falcao (couldn't resist, he was transfer-listed) and sold Vidal mid-season (got 3 red cards in short time, was angry because I fined him and wouldn't back down, got 42M for him).

The basic idea was to use quick players on the wings, first and foremost Giovinco, who is set up AP(a). He's supposed to run with the ball, dribble, pull defenders out of positions and pass the ball to Falcao to finish or finish himself. On the other wing, there's Giacherrini or Pepe playing W(a), who act more like true wingers, hugging the touchline, providing width and potential crosses. In the middle AMC position there's a good passer, playing as AP(s) (Vucinic, Giuliano or Canales), whose primary role is to spray passes to wingers and supply Falcao with through balls.

Now this is where my setup fails - only Giovinco acts like he's supposed to, for the most part. He's running with ball, he's great at penetrating defences and he scores quite a lot of goals (was my top scorer last season), but he rarely tries through balls. Falcao is sometimes marked properly but he doesn't even try when it would make sense to try. Same goes for my AMC - very rarely, if ever, he tries a through ball to the striker, usually it's a safe pass. My wingers also sometimes cut in but usually they just shoot, ignoring passing options and both Pepe and Giacherrini (especially the latter) are good passers, with good creativity and teamwork.

This is my team set up

Now, Falcao wasn't that bad, he averaged about 0.5 goals per game but almost all came either from crosses or when the ball bounced around in the box and he managed to get on the end of it. Since he's one of the best goalscorers in the game, I'm inclined to think he can do much better. I've tried tweaking his instructions, but it didn't have much of an effect. Even though his Off the Ball is quite good, he's struggling to find space and when he does, the through ball usually isn't coming.

I've set him up as a poacher, like this

In the end, most of my goals come from either wingers cutting in and scoring (Giovinco mostly) and set pieces (at least one third, maybe half). It's very one dimensional and when opposition park the bus, it's very hard to penetrate the defence. Often the results depends whether Giovinco is in the mood or how lucky I am with set pieces and that's not good enough.

What I've noticed is that accuracy of passing was severely toned down in this year's version, while it seems that crossing has been given a massive boost. I generally notices good passers making mistakes on easy passes while even mediocre wingers tend to sneak in a perfect cross while being closed down by two players. This seems true for both me and AI, and is also evident in set pieces. I'm hoping it's not the case and that some of you may tell me what I'm doing wrong.

How to play a more passing game and to get my striker to find more space and midfield to supply more through balls? I'm willing to listen to any advice, changing instructions, positions and even formation. I really hope it's possible since I'd loathe to switch over to a 4-4-2 variant, with quick wingers who pump the ball in the box endlessly for the tall striker(s) to head home, which seems to me is the key in this years version.

Also, about injuries - I seem the to get a lot of them. Now, I'm really anal about fitness and I rarely allow player with less than 95% fitness to step on the field and I've generally never had problems with injuries but in FM13 they're happening constantly, so this a major issue. I still don't understand the new training system quite well, so I haven't touched it except for high fitness routine for a about a month in pre-season, after which I reverted everything to default. Is there anything I can do, in training or otherwise, to minimise injuries? Most of the injuries are in the games, very few in training, if that helps.

[Sarmatian]

Anyone... ?

[tomtuck01]

For starters you have too many specialised roles, (Advanded Playmaker, Ball Winning Midfielder, etc), to play with a fluid philosophy. Try switching to rigid.

[RTHerringbone]

I'd suggest setting Alaba to an Attack Duty, just to get some movement between defence and midfield.

[tomtuck01]

I'd suggest setting Alaba to an Attack Duty, just to get some movement between defence and midfield.

This.

It's important, like in real life, to have movement inbetween the lines. When playing a back four I always give one of my fullbacks the "Attack" duty.

[Sarmatian]

For starters you have too many specialised roles, (Advanded Playmaker, Ball Winning Midfielder, etc), to play with a fluid philosophy. Try switching to rigid.

Ok, will try that. Do you think it will also affect Falcao and attack in general, or are some additional tweaks needed there? Or even a complete revamp?

I'd suggest setting Alaba to an Attack Duty, just to get some movement between defence and midfield.

Very good suggestion. I'm surprised it didn't occur to me. It would work great with Giovinco cutting in from AML position, giving crossing option and providing additional width and another passing outlet. Hopefully Asamoah can provide adequate cover for the left wing.

[RTHerringbone]

I wasn't sure if Giovinco would cut inside that often, as I think the wide play of an AP (A) is "normal", but yeah, the logic behind my suggestion was the overlap potential.

tomtuck01's suggestion about Style is bang on - people assume that putting something sexy like "Fluid" or "Very Fluid" means the team will play phenomenal interplay with all players involved in multiple phases. It rarely works like that and I only ever play on Balanced, primarily because it is easier to diagnose where things are going wrong.

[Sarmatian]

I wasn't sure if Giovinco would cut inside that often, as I think the wide play of an AP (A) is "normal", but yeah, the logic behind my suggestion was the overlap potential.

When in the middle it is "normal" but on the wings it's "cut in". Anyway, Giovinco has preferred move "cuts inside" so wherever I place him, he'll cut in.

tomtuck01's suggestion about Style is bang on - people assume that putting something sexy like "Fluid" or "Very Fluid" means the team will play phenomenal interplay with all players involved in multiple phases. It rarely works like that and I only ever play on Balanced, primarily because it is easier to diagnose where things are going wrong.

Indeed. Haven't really paid attention. I rarely play 4-2-3-1, usually it's 4-5-1 where I tend to eventually end up with players in AML, AMR and FC positions who can create, score and dribble so fluid generally works well, but in this case, maybe rigid is really the answer.

[wwfan]

For starters you have too many specialised roles, (Advanded Playmaker, Ball Winning Midfielder, etc), to play with a fluid philosophy. Try switching to rigid.

As he has five, I'd suggest very rigid.

[Sarmatian]

As he has five, I'd suggest very rigid.

Well, partly this is your fault. I'm not used to Juventus without Del Piero .

I'm not sure if railroading my player like that is the answer. Yes, there's a lot of specialized roles, but a lot of my players, especially center midfield players are kind of jacks-of-all-trades. Asamoah is a holding midfielder primarily but he also has decent passing skills, not to mention Marchisio.

I've tried switching to Rigid and setting Alaba (DL) to Attack role. I've played 6 matches

CL

Stoke City 1:2 Juventus

Serie A

Roma 1:4 Juventus

Serie A

Juventus 1:0 Milan

CL

Juventus 1:0 Barcelona

Serie A

Bologna 1:1 Juventus

Serie A

Parma 2:4 Juventus

Fantastic results - five wins in six matches is great, even better when considering that opponents were Barcelona, Milan and Roma.

I've generally noticed slightly better play, especially with Alaba moving forward and providing width and additional passing option. Still, a lot of my goals come from set pieces directly or indirectly, like their defenders head it away, one of my players gets the ball, pass and/or cross and I score.

Of course, this is how it goes in reality. In FM12 it was easy to play free flowing passing game with very few mistakes and have a lots of through balls. I'm I right in thinking that the match engine doesn't really allow it anymore, at least to the degree it was possible in FM12?

On the related issue, what do you guys think - should I set my RB to Attack as well? Isla has got the attributes to play it, I'm wondering if it's gonna be too offensive and leave me vulnerable in the back?

[max787]

Sorry to hijack your thread, but can anyone list the "specialised roles?"

I currently use a balanced philosophy because I like attacking full backs, and this philosophy allows for a large mentality gap for the full backs.

I play a 4-2-3-1 with:

ST: Complete forward attack or target man attack

AMR+AML: Inside forward support

AMC: Advanced playmaker attack

MC+MC: Deep lying playmaker support

DR+DL: Wing back attack

DC+DC: Central defender defend

GK: Sweeper keeper support

Is that a lot of specialised roles?

[ShirazS]

Sorry to hijack your thread, but can anyone list the "specialised roles?"

I currently use a balanced philosophy because I like attacking full backs, and this philosophy allows for a large mentality gap for the full backs.

I play a 4-2-3-1 with:

ST: Complete forward attack or target man attack

AMR+AML: Inside forward support

AMC: Advanced playmaker attack

MC+MC: Deep lying playmaker support

DR+DL: Wing back attack

DC+DC: Central defender defend

GK: Sweeper keeper support

Is that a lot of specialised roles?

In your set up, the DLP's, AP and CF are on specialized roles.

[max787]

Thanks for the reply

So, could I benefit from changing to rigid since I have 4 specialised roles?

[ShirazS]

If I remember correctly, wwfan said that the guideline was something like:

5 Specialists = Very Rigid

4 Specialists = Rigid

3 Specialists = Balanced

2 Specialists = Fluid

1 Specialist = Very Fluid

But it is not a hard and fast rule, as I understand it.

[max787]

If I remember correctly, wwfan said that the guideline was something like:

5 Specialists = Very Rigid

4 Specialists = Rigid

3 Specialists = Balanced

2 Specialists = Fluid

1 Specialist = Very Fluid

But it is not a hard and fast rule, as I understand it.

Cool, I've never seen that before, thanks!

I'll try a few games on rigid and see if it improves things

[Sarmatian]

And which exactly are the specialist roles?

Is it any role except those with "generic name" (central midfielder, central defender, attacking midfielder, defensive midfielder, winger etc....)?

[RTHerringbone]

And which exactly are the specialist roles?

Is it any role except those with "generic name" (central midfielder, central defender, attacking midfielder, defensive midfielder, winger etc....)?

Yep, they are specifically listed in Cleon's Understanding Your Tactics thread.

[Stian1234]

On what page are they listed? Are ball playing defender's specialists, for example? Wing back?

[RTHerringbone]

Found it on Page 2 of the excellent Twelve Step Guide, right from the horse's mouth (wwfan):

I consider the following to be specialist:

Target Man

Poacher

Trequartista

Advanced Playmaker

Box to Box Midfielder

Deep Lying Playmaker

Ball Winning Midfielder

Anchor Man

Libero

These four roles can fit in either camp, depending on your interpretation.

Complete Forward

Defensive Forward

Defensive Winger

Ball Playing Defender

Generic roles:

Advanced Forward

Deep Lying Forward

Attacking Midfielder

Central Midfielder

Defensive Midfielder

Inside Forward

Winger

Wide Midfielder

Wing Back

Full Back

Central Defender

Sweeper

I don't include keepers.

Note also that these roles then fit into the Philosophy framework as below:

Very Fluid : 0-1

Fluid : 1-2

Balanced : 2-3

Rigid : 3-4

Very Rigid : 4-5

[Sarmatian]

Thanks, although I'm not sure why it's based upon roles and not abilities. Basically, if I have 3 attacking players who can score, create and dribble (quite possible with a top team) set up like this

AP---------------------AP

----------CF------------

I should set my philosophy at least "balanced" depending on amount of other specialist roles in the team. But, why should I do that if all three can do everything? In that case I would want them to swap positions, drop deep and generally try to involve themselves as much as they can in both transition and attack phase. Why shouldn't I let them do that with fluid or even very fluid philosophy and instead railroad them into sticking to only one phase?

[RTHerringbone]

Because you risk losing sight of the underlying tactic. Don't forget that the Philosophy extends to the whole team, not just three players.

The underlying concept is that Specialist roles are creative, and can still create and add flair even when in a more structured Philosophy framework.

If you had a team with 5 specialist outfield roles and were set to Very Fluid, you'd have some very high mentality and creative freedom settings, in a team already packed with creativity. The risk is that they would drift so far from Plan A, that they would fail to resemble what you originally intended the tactic to achieve.

There is a tendency with FM for people to steer clear of Strategies like "Standard" or "Defensive", and Styles like "Standard" and "Rigid", because they are perceived to be restrictive and controlling. That isn't the case at all, and actually a "Standard" and "Rigid" setup can easily be anything but restrictive.

[Rashidi]

Because you risk losing sight of the underlying tactic. Don't forget that the Philosophy extends to the whole team, not just three players.

The underlying concept is that Specialist roles are creative, and can still create and add flair even when in a more structured Philosophy framework.

If you had a team with 5 specialist outfield roles and were set to Very Fluid, you'd have some very high mentality and creative freedom settings, in a team already packed with creativity. The risk is that they would drift so far from Plan A, that they would fail to resemble what you originally intended the tactic to achieve.

There is a tendency with FM for people to steer clear of Strategies like "Standard" or "Defensive", and Styles like "Standard" and "Rigid", because they are perceived to be restrictive and controlling. That isn't the case at all, and actually a "Standard" and "Rigid" setup can easily be anything but restrictive.

Nice :-)

[higgins]

Because you risk losing sight of the underlying tactic. Don't forget that the Philosophy extends to the whole team, not just three players.

The underlying concept is that Specialist roles are creative, and can still create and add flair even when in a more structured Philosophy framework.

If you had a team with 5 specialist outfield roles and were set to Very Fluid, you'd have some very high mentality and creative freedom settings, in a team already packed with creativity. The risk is that they would drift so far from Plan A, that they would fail to resemble what you originally intended the tactic to achieve.

There is a tendency with FM for people to steer clear of Strategies like "Standard" or "Defensive", and Styles like "Standard" and "Rigid", because they are perceived to be restrictive and controlling. That isn't the case at all, and actually a "Standard" and "Rigid" setup can easily be anything but restrictive.

True, if you use shouts standard strategy is a great and balanced starting point.

[yonko]

Sorry to hijack your thread, but can anyone list the "specialised roles?"

I currently use a balanced philosophy because I like attacking full backs, and this philosophy allows for a large mentality gap for the full backs.

I play a 4-2-3-1 with:

ST: Complete forward attack or target man attack

AMR+AML: Inside forward support

AMC: Advanced playmaker attack

MC+MC: Deep lying playmaker support

DR+DL: Wing back attack

DC+DC: Central defender defend

GK: Sweeper keeper support

Is that a lot of specialised roles?

In your set up, the DLP's, AP and CF are on specialized roles.

I don't understand why in his set up would you count the CF as a specialist role when further down you list that it can go either way?

Found it on Page 2 of the excellent Twelve Step Guide, right from the horse's mouth (wwfan):

These four roles can fit in either camp, depending on your interpretation.

Complete Forward

Defensive Forward

Defensive Winger

Ball Playing Defender

[agentvinz]

So if I'm a good team ex: Chelsea, will switching the philosophy to very fluid and having 0 specialist role will produce free flowing, sexy football?

[wwfan]

Not necessarily, no. There is no direct correspondence between philosophy and player quality. It relates to how you think football should be played. You can produce extremely sexy football with a very rigid philosophy because you have five creative players in specialised roles running the show. It could actually be harder to produce sexy football with a very fluid philosophy, because then every player has to contribute equally and you have to keep all of them happy and motivated.