Some thoughts not a rant

[bladesadviser]

I would just like to put my thoughts on FM13 down in a rational and constructive way. I am 48 and have bought every Champ Manager through the change to FM and never missed a year. I don't play any other computer or console games as I don't have time. I probably play 3-4 hours a week so I want to get enjoyment from it. I have always bought the new game in the January after release.

Today I have done something I have never done before and gone back a year to FM12. The reason is that FM13 just has too many things wrong. I have always accepted that the press conference ask daft questions like "do you think you can win the FA cup" when you have just scraped a win in the 4th qualifying round as a conference north side. I can even accept the stupid suggestions of the backroom staff such as "x player is a high earner and the money could better spent" when they are talking about your leading scorer who is the best player in the team and not even the highest earner.

No to me its the match engine and the training that have made me go back to FM12

In FM13 the ME just seems to be broken. I have watched players run away from the ball, changed direction to avoid the ball, stop dead in their tracks to let a player run through. I have watched three players run to the same attacker leaving huge gaps. I have seen strikers run through clear on goal and then either stop to wait to be tackled or veer off to the edge of the area instead of towards the goal. A throw is invariably given straight to the opposition, not won in a header just thrown to straight to an opposition player with none of my players around them. Goalkeepers seem determined to kick balls straight to opposition players and if they don't score they try again a few minutes later. I score and concede a unrealistic amount of goals that are crosses that go straight in and also goalkeepers clearance that reach the halfway line and a player shoots straight back at goal. These sort of goals are once a season in real life not every 2 or 3 games

The two incidents that finally sent me back to FM12 were a long ball played towards my goal that was going out harmlessly for a goal kick which my defender stopped right on the goal line near the corner flag, he had loads of space in front of him but instead chose an inch perfect pass to an attacker standing on the edge of the box who put it away.

In my last match I lost 1-3 except I didn't. I drew 2-2 but for some reason the game chose to give my equaliser to the opposition. The correct score is surely the least I can expect from the game

Let me make it clear I am not wanting to win every game. I always start with a conference north or south club and would expect the quality of player to be fairly poor but having watched football at many levels for many years I have yet to see players act in the way described above. On my first game back on FM12 I lost 5-3 but at least felt I lost in a sensible and proper way.

Just a brief note on the training. To me its a mess, I have my Ass Manager take control on this game yet during my backroom meetings I get my Ass Manager telling me that x player is unhappy with his training regime. Why is he telling me when I have put him in charge? I have tried reverting back to me to organise training but there doesn't seem to be anyway I can change the workload of the individual without changing the team. Also which part of the training is the player complaining about? Apologies if this is something I am missing but its clearly not as straightforward as in past versions

Hopefully this hasn't turned onto a rant, I am not someone who says "I shall never buy the game again" as over the years CM/FM has given me hours of enjoyment. All I ask is that the guys who put together FM2014 just look back at previous versions to see what worked especially the ME.

Thanks for reading

[johnhughthom]

I like the new training module, though I agree it isn't very intuitive. Remember the training stacks, so if they have a training focus, position training and learning/unlearning a ppm they are likely to complain. I usually just have them doing a focus or position retraining, sometimes you can get away with both, but if the player complains I take them off focused training. Of course you will get players complaining about even just that, but I ignore it and have never noticed a morale/performance drop.

I can understand your issues with the ME, though some of your points can be helped through tactics, it has a lot of issues and drives me to distraction at times. For me though, the big thing is it doesn't seem to be as easy to manipulate as FM 12's engine, and most of the flaws effect the AI and player equally so I can put up with it's quirks. Mostly.

[milnerpoint]

Your ass man takes control of MATCH PREP training, not the full schedule. You still have to do some work with the training set up. If a player complains about the level have a look and see if he has been given extra training, like a new position, or new move, or even focusing on one attribute, and decide if you really need the player doing the extra work. I personally ignore training complaints without seeing any issues.

The ME is subjective. The 13 ME has had issues but i think its running quite well now, you will always see mistakes and stupid incidents, but thats football. The 12 ME was decent enough, but once you figured it out it made the game so easy, a couple of quick wingers and a quick poacher and you were unstoppable. I actually went back to 12 before the last patch as a bug was stopping me going forward, and i dont agree the ME was better. I saw my team play about 14 through balls in one game, all of them in the gaps between the centre backs and full backs, 5 of which lead to goals, its just completely unrealistic when compared to how football is actually played.

[Tom Laskowski]

Individual Training, hope it helps:

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[Erimus1876]

The ME has been frustrating this year but I couldn't go back to FM12's engine now, despite '13's flaws. FM13's engine is way ahead of anything that has come before but the frustrating thing is its far from being finely tuned and SI have ran out of time with it this year as development of '14 takes priority. But the potential for it is there for all to see, although I think its going to be another year, possibly until 14.3, before we see the very best of it.

A no-collision detection and pace-trumps-all ME like FM12 just doesn't appeal to me anymore now that I've had a taste of SI's new ME vision.

[forameuss]

I think the biggest problem when people talk about the ME is comparing it to real football. The ME is not, and never will be, a reflection of the real world. It's an approximation, and a pretty good one considering the circumstances. I think it's just a case of expectations being too high. There are definitely bugs in the ME, not disputing that, but sometimes I think people want it to play like you're watching Sky Sports. I'd like that, but realistically it's not going to happen.

[CityAndColour]

I think there are some terrible things in the current ME ('keeper behaviour being a big one) but its good stuff is light years ahead of anything we've seen previously. It's just a shame you can watch a wonderfully intricate bit of play, followed by your 'keeper running out of the box and inexplicably chipping the ball back into the centre to the opposition.

[bladesadviser]

Thanks for the replies so far especially the training hints

With regards to the comments about the ME, I am quite happy to see mistakes and errors by players that is what makes football so exciting but you don't see players running away from the ball, standing still, running towards the ball and changing direction so they don't tackle. The problem with that is no tactics or training will change, there is no learn move "please learn to not run away from the ball"

[milnerpoint]

I personally dont really see those issues. I do see some horrific goal keeping at times, both in saves and distribution and some very dodgy along the backline passing. But i really dont see players running away from the ball or standing still with the ball for no obvious reason.

My biggest gripe is wingers dont always want to be wingers, mines love cutting inside onto their weaker foot, its frustrating sometimes.

[hashassin]

I score and concede a unrealistic amount of goals that are crosses that go straight in and also goalkeepers clearance that reach the halfway line and a player shoots straight back at goal. These sort of goals are once a season in real life not every 2 or 3 games

In my last match I lost 1-3 except I didn't. I drew 2-2 but for some reason the game chose to give my equaliser to the opposition. The correct score is surely the least I can expect from the game

1st thing was happening often in early versions of ME, now it happens maybe 2 times per season, at least in my case.

And i never had a wrong score (over 800h of gameplay)

[milnerpoint]

I've had the ghost result once in all my life playing the game. It exists in 12 as well, its one of those they have never been able to replicate so its next to impossible to find out whats causing it.

[Q.P.R]

I myself am fully with the OP .

I too have gone back to fm2012

you only have to look at fm2013 sales to see that most do not like it .

in fact there has been a 50% drop in sales on fm2013 .

fm2012 sold 1.4 million . fm2013 has sold less than half of that . 600.000 .

so 50% of fm gamers have not even brought fm2013 . and i can understand why .

fm2013 is the end for si - or its a good kick up the ass.

[AllUrBase]

I must admit I also find the "unhappy with training" with no explantion of why quite frustrating.

Things I have seen players unhappy with

- Too high workload.

- Being asked to do too much extra training, seen when being asked to train ppm/position as well as individual focus

- Not enough match preparation

A player telling me he's unhappy but not why is useless information. I'm inclined to think it's a bug.

[stevereay]

The ME is a massive step forward now from where it was at release. While its not perfect its not a million miles away from that. I have 2 games going atm. A premier league game and a LLM. I see similar flaws in the engine at both level but a lot less frequent at the higher level than at the lower lower. While this can be frustrating I feel I can except them more as player flaws now and ME errors which they still are. Its just my perception has changed now.

FM13 is a huge step forward from FM12 and I cant see me going back to it and being satisfied.

I don't really like the training system although there isnt anything wrong with it I feel it is a step backwards in sophistication whereas the rest of the game has moved forward. I'd like to see a move back to the old format or more interactive model being created. Something along the lines of being able to train as a squad of players on things like ball control, tactics, Fitness, Set Peices. Then the Indvidual training for skills. Both of which we have now but then group training. Defenders on defending, Attackers Attacking. I dont like my defenders learning to shoot because they are group in with the overall training.

[mortdecai1]

How many issues can one game have, frankly for the game to be released in this state is a joke. They wont admit it but they have clearly given up on this pup of a game. Worst ever most unplayable CM/FM ever made in terms of an improvement from the previous one. It seems to me that every year they try and totally re-invent the wheel rather than improving certain features. The DofF etc are good features, the match engine is on the other hand certifiable rendering the whole game just downright annoying. I think FM is dying a slow death heading this way. I've noticed the attitude of some of the mods seems to me rather high handed and what you might call over sensitive, suggesting they might think it to. Never a good idea to bite the hand that feeds you.

[forameuss]

How many issues can one game have, frankly for the game to be released in this state is a joke. They wont admit it but they have clearly given up on this pup of a game. Worst ever most unplayable CM/FM ever made in terms of an improvement from the previous one. It seems to me that every year they try and totally re-invent the wheel rather than improving certain features. The DofF etc are good features, the match engine is on the other hand certifiable rendering the whole game just downright annoying. I think FM is dying a slow death heading this way. I've noticed the attitude of some of the mods seems to me rather high handed and what you might call over sensitive, suggesting they might think it to. Never a good idea to bite the hand that feeds you.

I'm sure FM14 won't miss you when you don't buy your copy. If you honestly can't see improvement between the past few games, then maybe it isn't for you.

[ohmydaze]

FM dying a slow death. Might want to check their sales figures before saying that buddy.

[jac4121993]

I think most of the game is actually fine, it is just that the match engine is so infuriating. It really is rage-inducing to see your players put the ball out for corners for no reason (I've actually seen players get the ball, run back to near the corner flag in their own half, be pressed all the way, and instead of trying to win a GK or a throw in, they instead turn around and boot it directly out for a corner. I don't mean lose control of it or miscue the clearance, I mean actually aim there). Similar thing for how they handle crosses and high passes, they seem to actually aim their headed clearances out for corners when they could quite easily put it out for a throw (or even leave as many times they are under absolutely no pressure). Goalkeepers seem to be incredibly stupid too. They keep balls in and boot them to opposition players when they shouldn't, they just stand there or run away when they should come for the ball and sometimes they don't even bother trying to save really weak shots or shots aimed straight at them.

I know that managing in League 1 I should expect mistakes, but I shouldn't be going into a match expecting a mistake at every high ball, a mistake for every shot, a mistake for every attack.

It's gotten to the point where I haven't got the slightest clue what I'm supposed to do with the game.

[Q.P.R]

The folk on here that says its a great game , must be watching something els , or they are purly here to just Sabotage the game .

I mean how good is it to watch players walking around the pitch ,then other times seeing them ice skate ..

yes it has become clear to me ,,

so any good feed back ,, reads to me this :

Sabotage the game is a deliberate action aimed at weakening the game

[milnerpoint]

FM dying a slow death. Might want to check their sales figures before saying that buddy.

Going on then, enlighten us with the sales figures you have to hand please.

[Q.P.R]

Going on then, enlighten us with the sales figures you have to hand please.

in fact there has been a 50% drop in sales on fm2013 .

fm2012 sold 1.4 million . fm2013 has sold less than half of that . 600.000 .

Facts

prove fm2012 http://www.vgchartz.com/game/57526/football-manager-2012/

prove fm2013 http://www.vgchartz.com/game/71128/football-manager-2013/

massvie drop

Global Total as of 23rd Feb 2013

even fm2011 sold far more .. http://www.vgchartz.com/game/43886/football-manager-2011/

[Keyzer Soze]

I personally dont really see those issues. I do see some horrific goal keeping at times, both in saves and distribution and some very dodgy along the backline passing. But i really dont see players running away from the ball or standing still with the ball for no obvious reason.

My biggest gripe is wingers dont always want to be wingers, mines love cutting inside onto their weaker foot, its frustrating sometimes.

Milner sums up, perfectly, the issues i also see in the ME. Apart from that, everything is very good and a huge improvement from last year (and this year) versions.

[ohmydaze]

Going on then, enlighten us with the sales figures you have to hand please.

Believe they have shifted around 780,000 units + world wide. Around 220,000 of those in 2012 in the UK making it the top selling PC game and also 22nd in terms of sales across all platforms.

[bladesadviser]

Can I just point out that I stated in my OP I didn't want this to become a I 'm not going to buy 2014 etc type of thread. It is my rational not going to fall out with anyone views on where I see this version of the game compared with all the others down the years Clearly some are feeling that the ME is an improvement which is fine but equally on this thread and on others there are many who find it not as good. As I also said in the OP I spend 3-4 hours a week on FM and would like to finish my session having enjoyed the game not be infuriated as to what I can do about the mad goalie and the players who think the ball is a bomb etc

[Herbert Fandel]

Going on then, enlighten us with the sales figures you have to hand please.

milner I think he was quoting the disenchanted writer further up, not making the 'dying' claim himself

[johnhughthom]

Not really helpful describing someone as a 'whiner', fanboy.

[jac4121993]

I personally dont really see those issues. I do see some horrific goal keeping at times, both in saves and distribution and some very dodgy along the backline passing. But i really dont see players running away from the ball or standing still with the ball for no obvious reason.

My biggest gripe is wingers dont always want to be wingers, mines love cutting inside onto their weaker foot, its frustrating sometimes.

To be fair, I do also see my players dally on the ball an awful lot. That might be slightly to do with my tactics, but I would still expect them to at least try something, ANYTHING, rather than stand there and do nothing at all. I also notice sometimes that my wingers can be free on the wings, they get the ball, can have the instructions to run at opponents, the PPMs that show they do do that and yet they just seem to amble up the wings rather than actually try to get at their opponents.

Also, just a small annoyance, but it's kickoffs. At every kick off, you want your players to keep the ball, try and build an attack. What do they always seem to do? Pass the ball to the centre half who then aimlessly hoofs it out for a goalkick up the other end. Happens at every kick off, no matter whether it's my team or the opponents.

[Herbert Fandel]

Also, just a small annoyance, but it's kickoffs. At every kick off, you want your players to keep the ball, try and build an attack. What do they always seem to do? Pass the ball to the centre half who then aimlessly hoofs it out for a goalkick up the other end. Happens at every kick off, no matter whether it's my team or the opponents.

I wouldn't say I have noticed this happening at every kick off, in my experience it seem to mostly be, for whatever reason, limited to lower league football. Even there I agree it happens far too often to be realistic though.

[ohmydaze]

I'm proper old skool and just rock it with the commentary so dont see these players doing mental things. Even those dots moving about was too much for me to shift to accepting! lols!

[jac4121993]

Yeah, I only play lower league football (Mostly League 1 or 2). But there are some very good passing sides down the leagues, so for most kickoffs to result in a hoof is frustrating.

Another one, less serious, and also probably due to my own personal biases, but seeing Colchester rated as a worse passing and creative side on the Comparison page than the likes of Preston (who are a hoofball side) is a bit insulting really. I would understand if they were rated poorly in attack and defence (as they have been terrible in both for a lot of the season), but not in their passing ability.

[mexamoxa]

I'm proper old skool and just rock it with the commentary so dont see these players doing mental things. Even those dots moving about was too much for me to shift to accepting! lols!

this is what made it for me. i now only watch the match occasionally and it must be an easy one LOL the ME was very imperfect up until this last patch, now seems way improved and I can live with the minor gripes it gives. Still, having said that, commentary only and full speed made the game a lot better for me.

What is also a very important point though, that someone above made, is that games can not be released in the state that FM13 was. And this is vital. Imagine yourself running a business, you sell a product to someone in November and they only have working "right" in March? How do you think your client will react?

To encourage the OP, when I started with FM13 I was a mess. I couldn't put a string of 3 wins together. But after spending some (considerable) time in the tactics and the good team forums, in my last 2 saves (Ajax and Porto) I won the CL with Ajax in the 3rd season and with Porto in the 1st season!! And walking all over the domestic leagues!

Don't lose faith, always try to learn and improve! And remember, commentary only!! LOL

[milnerpoint]

milner I think he was quoting the disenchanted writer further up, not making the 'dying' claim himself

I think you may be right, one day ill learn to read posts fully. Apologies ohmydaze

[milnerpoint]

To be fair, I do also see my players dally on the ball an awful lot. That might be slightly to do with my tactics, but I would still expect them to at least try something, ANYTHING, rather than stand there and do nothing at all. I also notice sometimes that my wingers can be free on the wings, they get the ball, can have the instructions to run at opponents, the PPMs that show they do do that and yet they just seem to amble up the wings rather than actually try to get at their opponents.

Also, just a small annoyance, but it's kickoffs. At every kick off, you want your players to keep the ball, try and build an attack. What do they always seem to do? Pass the ball to the centre half who then aimlessly hoofs it out for a goalkick up the other end. Happens at every kick off, no matter whether it's my team or the opponents.

See i honestly dont, since the last patch i started a Hull game, not the highest level of football, and not the best team, but i really really dont see players standing around with the ball, a few times players dally from time to time, but i expect that at championship level. Keepers insisting on short distribution, no matter how dangerous is my biggest gripe, that almost causes me a heart attack every time. My wingers are also insistent on coming inside, im sure its something i have set up tactically to an extent but i cant figure out exactly what ive done. I've even trained PPM's to run down the wings which has helped, but not completely. I play 3 across the middle, i dont need a winger stealing their space!!

[ohmydaze]

I think you may be right, one day ill learn to read posts fully. Apologies ohmydaze

I think we both got crossed wires!

[jac4121993]

See i honestly dont, since the last patch i started a Hull game, not the highest level of football, and not the best team, but i really really dont see players standing around with the ball, a few times players dally from time to time, but i expect that at championship level. Keepers insisting on short distribution, no matter how dangerous is my biggest gripe, that almost causes me a heart attack every time. My wingers are also insistent on coming inside, im sure its something i have set up tactically to an extent but i cant figure out exactly what ive done. I've even trained PPM's to run down the wings which has helped, but not completely. I play 3 across the middle, i dont need a winger stealing their space!!

I've just noticed that I have a two players with the Stops Play PPM, and another with the Dwells on the Ball PPM. Guess that's my problem. Really annoying that some of my players have inappropriate PPMs. Also annoying when you try to suggest PPMs for players, or the removal of some, and your coaches sometimes come up with some stupid suggestions.

[Bobble2002]

The biggest two annoyances currently for me with the ME is players walking with the ball even when being closed down and the actual ball physics .

I had a player who got the ball on the half way line and WALKED it back to his own penalty area whilst being supposedly challenged by an opposing forward all the way . then he promptly hoofed it out for a corner .

Also players constantly getting the ball in clear space and walking with it until an opposition player comes and takes it off them (both mine and the AI

The ball physics that really annoy me are the ones where the ball is played forward ON THE GROUND yet somehow manages to arc in a circle from out wide into the penalty area . I know its on the ground as to begin with you see it bounce then just roll . Anyone who plays football knows that a ball rolling on the ground in unable to keep arcing as the friction stops it from doing that

[youngrookie]

ive actually found the training set up very good in FM13. I always handle it myself (including reserves and u18) and give each player individual focus and have found this works great for improving my players and especially for the youth. Even when i get messages of complaint i generally ignore them, thou sometimes I reduce the player workload down a notch (say heavy to average). When a player is moaning about his training there should be a reason why thou.

This ME is currently the best version of FM13. Although, there is some flaws and mainly the ones you guys have mentioned. From when FM13 was released to now the match engine is so much better. Players 'doing a Messi', scoring and conceding from nearly every corner or free kick, keepers always kicking long even when told not to and throw ins going straight to the opp have vanished. Obviously it does occur every now and then but I believe that this is down to good and bad play by the teams and good and poor tactics and countering of tactics.

You should stick with the current release and give the individual training set up a go. As for the ME I don't get these problems frequently, but I am usually managing a team in a top division and dont know if it is a lower league problem

[jac4121993]

More goalkeeper stupidity now. Deep cross comes in from a freekick, my defender clears it. For some reason my goalkeeper dived to his right, then didn't get up. The ball from my defender's headed clearance drops to an opposition player 30 yards out who volleys it into a empty net. Dafuq?

I really also hate how your players can make such blatantly obvious mistakes leading to goals and yet the game doesn't even mention it, and you can't even talk to your player about the mistake.

[iMan]

I've largely enjoyed the game and didn't really mind the bugs that much. I think the ME now is fine.

I just find it a little bit confusing and a bit random at times though. Things suddenly just go wrong out of the blue and it's hard to recognise why sometimes when there's so many different things that affect performance.

It's defintly more of a ''simulation'' nowadays than a game.

[mortdecai1]

Listen Skyfall the highest grossing bond film of all time and quite possibly one of the very worst bond films of all time. I could go on and on. Let's wait and see the figures for fm14, 15 and 16 shall we ? I've played this game for 15 years i think i'm entitled to my opinion, if you find a game with more holes in it than a swiss cheese acceptable at that price then good luck to you. I dont.

[hawks27]

The biggest two annoyances currently for me with the ME is players walking with the ball even when being closed down and the actual ball physics .

I had a player who got the ball on the half way line and WALKED it back to his own penalty area whilst being supposedly challenged by an opposing forward all the way . then he promptly hoofed it out for a corner .

Also players constantly getting the ball in clear space and walking with it until an opposition player comes and takes it off them (both mine and the AI

The ball physics that really annoy me are the ones where the ball is played forward ON THE GROUND yet somehow manages to arc in a circle from out wide into the penalty area . I know its on the ground as to begin with you see it bounce then just roll . Anyone who plays football knows that a ball rolling on the ground in unable to keep arcing as the friction stops it from doing that

This sums up my bug bears quite well.

The walking with the ball scenario drives me insane.

My winger will get the ball on the counter and will have half a pitch to run in too yet he ambles around until the opposition have got everybody in place and had a quick fag .

I watched in bewilderment as the opposition centre half played a long ball down the right channel , upon bouncing it curled towards my goal, my goal keeper under no immediate pressure dives at the ball with his feet diverting the ball to the on coming attacker leaving him with a empty net.

I honestly don't remember this kind of stupidity in fm12

[Ramathustra]

bladesadviser was kind enough not to rant. I won't be...

This game has reached its peak with the 2008 version, sadly, and is going downhill ever since. Buying FM 2013 was one of the worst way to throw away my hard earned cash. It's a broken game, on every level, the menus messy beyond comprehension, the whole interface just plain ugly, and when it comes to gameplay, nothing, and I mean nothing works. Oh, and those dialogues... Don't misunderstand me, I don't expect to win all my matches, but to not have one tackle made during a match, because my players instead of running towards the ball, run away like mad, or when I set my tactics to short passes not to see one short pass, and so on, is unacceptable. Then the pep talk: I tell my player something, no reaction, I tell another player something, no reaction from his part, but the previous player is suddenly happy! And then the training...well, it's completely useless because it doesn't give any possibility of customization.

I'm sorry to say, but this game has only survived this edition due to its previous fame. As it is, bug-ridden and not working properly is just a shame on the name SI Games.

[Old Hand]

I'm proper old skool and just rock it with the commentary so dont see these players doing mental things. Even those dots moving about was too much for me to shift to accepting! lols!

Yes!

I was playing the 01/02 game recently, just text. It is proper nerve wracking when the time's ticking down and you need a goal, 87th minute "Player x picks up the ball.... Bursts into the area...... He shoots!...." ...and you're just waiting for the flashing text to mark the goal. Good times!

As regards the current game, I think it's fantastic. It got very complex (still is on full fat) so they introduced FMC (which I play) and I think you have to recognise that it's a very well made game. I think there's often a lack of reason when criticising the game. Phrases like "it's virtually unplayable" seem to crop up and with all due respect that's just not true. I think one of the main problems for FM is the fact that people invest so much in terms of time into playing it so when something, however minor, goes "wrong" it jars and really angers people (even if it's not really a bug but a quirk of football).

I mean come on, everyone's got to the last 5 games of a season, 3 points clear at the top, on a great run of form only to win one of those last five and finish 4th no? Automatically you think "The game's cheating! It's broken!" but really, that's football.

It seems to me that SI take on board complaints, suggestions and bug reports and really do make an effort to improve their product. There can't be many companies where you can post an issue in a forum and someone acting for the company replies the same day. I think you have to applaud them.

[Ramathustra]

Yes!

I was playing the 01/02 game recently, just text. It is proper nerve wracking when the time's ticking down and you need a goal, 87th minute "Player x picks up the ball.... Bursts into the area...... He shoots!...." ...and you're just waiting for the flashing text to mark the goal. Good times!

As regards the current game, I think it's fantastic. It got very complex (still is on full fat) so they introduced FMC (which I play) and I think you have to recognise that it's a very well made game. I think there's often a lack of reason when criticising the game. Phrases like "it's virtually unplayable" seem to crop up and with all due respect that's just not true. I think one of the main problems for FM is the fact that people invest so much in terms of time into playing it so when something, however minor, goes "wrong" it jars and really angers people (even if it's not really a bug but a quirk of football).

I mean come on, everyone's got to the last 5 games of a season, 3 points clear at the top, on a great run of form only to win one of those last five and finish 4th no? Automatically you think "The game's cheating! It's broken!" but really, that's football.

It seems to me that SI take on board complaints, suggestions and bug reports and really do make an effort to improve their product. There can't be many companies where you can post an issue in a forum and someone acting for the company replies the same day. I think you have to applaud them.

If a game has bugs, it doesn't work properly. Would you buy a product, that doesn't do so? Yes, I accept, improvements were made in time on these issues. But, I'm sorry to say, I have the right to a perfect, or a reasonably working product, if I splash out half of my monthly income on it.

[Old Hand]

If a game has bugs, it doesn't work properly. Would you buy a product, that doesn't do so? Yes, I accept, improvements were made in time on these issues. But, I'm sorry to say, I have the right to a perfect, or a reasonably working product, if I splash out half of my monthly income on it.

But would you honestly say it wasn't reasonably working? I don't know, maybe I'm old fashioned about these things. I remember playing games on tape where if there was a bug, there was a bug and that was that! No support back in them days (all was fields etc. etc.).

If there's a fault then yes, it should be fixed, but I think a lot of the criticism seems to be "The game's not fair. Why aren't I winning more?" kind which is a totally different kettle of fish.

[johnhughthom]

If a game has bugs, it doesn't work properly. Would you buy a product, that doesn't do so? Yes, I accept, improvements were made in time on these issues. But, I'm sorry to say, I have the right to a perfect, or a reasonably working product, if I splash out half of my monthly income on it.

The perfect game does not exist, good luck asserting your rights to such a thing, and I can't by any stretch of the imagination describe FM 13 as not 'reasonably working'. The only unreasonable part of the scenario are your expectations of a complex software product.

[Herbert Fandel]

If a game has bugs, it doesn't work properly. Would you buy a product, that doesn't do so? Yes, I accept, improvements were made in time on these issues. But, I'm sorry to say, I have the right to a perfect, or a reasonably working product, if I splash out half of my monthly income on it.

Extraordinary nonsense. Sadly you arrived on these forums a few months too late for all the fun and games.

Edit - Inb4 you quote me. Your lower post is not nonsense, but is almost entirely rational. It makes an entirely different point to the one I have quoted though, almost constitues a factual u-turn.

[mortdecai1]

Given that most software bugs are down to human errors in source code and design i think you are talking extraordinary nonsense. If a bug by definition causes a piece of software to crash or produce invalid output then it cannot be working properly.

[Ramathustra]

The perfect game does not exist, good luck asserting your rights to such a thing, and I can't by any stretch of the imagination describe FM 13 as not 'reasonably working'. The only unreasonable part of the scenario are your expectations of a complex software product.

Well, in all honesty, I can't accept your point of view - I'm not going to say it's not valid though, after all, both of us are stating personal views here. But when it comes to games, way to many not properly working ones are allowed to be released. And true, FM 2013 is by far not a bad case compared to others. Every previous football manager game had some minor issues, and I've had good seasons and bad seasons (got relegated, gone bankrupt) with each and every one them. The problem is that this one had more issues, and bigger ones, at least for me, than the others. And nothing, that with more testing couldn't be noticed and solved.

[themadsheep2001]

Given that most software bugs are down to human errors in source code and design i think you are talking extraordinary nonsense. If a bug by definition causes a piece of software to crash or produce invalid output then it cannot be working properly.

Then every piece of software is by your definition, broken.