Laptop...Meet Wall...

[Dan13L]

Hi Guys,

I'm posting this morning now I've calmed down. It took every ounce of my being not to come on here last night and call the game a stupid head. I experienced some very serious Footman rage, akin to the Pro Evo/Fifa rage of my youth. Having never felt so angry and annoyed at the game i've played and loved since I was a wee bairn and not wanting to give up just yet, inspired by the posts of Cleon and wwfan, I've come, cap in hand for help.

I'm managing Monaco. Oil rich, expected to win and to return the club to its former glory. However I am a mere Sunday league amateur and the players don't really respect me. I have reshaped the backroom staff from top to bottom.

I'm playing a 4-1-2-2-1 formation. My main frustrations are coming from my defence I think, We just don;t seem to defend very well at all. My full backs don't tackle, they just seem guide the opposition wingers (who all seem to go like the proverbial faeces off a garden implement) into the box or down to the byline and they either smash it in, or cross for someone else who then smacks it in. My full backs aren't bad, they're fairly quick and I think are better than the average ligue 2 type player so I feel they should be doing better.

My CB's don;t seem to be able to challenge too well either. They frequently lose headers and get out muscled in the box, It feels like the opposition has 13 players and I have 9. I get swamped by their wingers and full backs on the wings, despite me trying to do the same and my midfield seem to run out of options frequently and then either give the ball away or get tackled and when we do get forward, the opposition is so tight and compact that we have no where to go and my WB's crossing never reach their man (unlike what I feel the opposition can do to me very easily). I have tried different roles for the Midfield but all players seem to lack one or two attributes for each specialised role so I've just left them as CM's for now.

What infuriated me last night was a simple lofted ball from out wide, again my full back just stood next to the winger and didn;t challenge and when the ball came in, my CB didn;t challenge, just let the attacker bring the ball down, control it and he then booted it in from 12 yards. I've seen this type of thing happen a few times, but we've gotten away with it. This cost us a game.

When I attack it seems the opposition do what I want my own team to do in defence and vice versa i.e. make things so tight, tackle and mark superbly that my wingers/IFs barely get a look in and my players can't seem to make easy passes. I'm not too sure what I'm doing wrong really. My tactical familiarity is fluid for all except mentality that is Accomplished. I tried counter and standard but i found that we just couldn't get out of our own half so I put it to attacking and found that we at least where got forward a bit more.

Here is my formation

Here is my defence:

Heres the midfield:

And Attack

I have a quick attack, and tricky players, like Nem and Barazite and a decent finisher in Billiat or Chibuike. I also have a good target man in Ribas

Here are the other players I use.

Jorginho, the young mid and Ilsinho, a bit of utility player but can't decide on his best position...

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I use the shouts: Work Ball; Look for Overlap; Pass Into Space; Exploit Flanks; and then mix between Retain Possession/Pass to Feet and Get Ball Forward

So here is some analysis:

2-0 Defeat to Gazlec a team I'm expected to defeat comfortably but are doing well

Heat Map

Goals Conceded

2-2 vs Chateroux again team i'm expected to beat but doing well

Heat Map

Goals

And the damp squib Angers. They're 19th in league and i drew 0-0

Heat Map

Match Stats

Summary

- So I think looking at heat map I have a good balance but perhaps I'm too flat or don;t have great support to the attackers....

- I have a lot of new players and team gelling might not be there yet, however I have had been training Team Cohesion and tactics from the start of the game and also players might not fully respect me yet.

- Team morale isn't bad, i'd say average of fairly good to good, with a few very goods.

So any tips on shoring up my defence and getting my full backs to defend and tackle would be greatly appreciated and also how best to use my attacking prowess to its potential. I have a cup game against the mighty Lille and I don;t want to get battered!!

I can post any other information you need :-)

Thanks

Dan

[Cleon]

I'm playing a 4-1-2-2-1 formation. My main frustrations are coming from my defence I think, We just don;t seem to defend very well at all. My full backs don't tackle, they just seem guide the opposition wingers (who all seem to go like the proverbial faeces off a garden implement) into the box or down to the byline and they either smash it in, or cross for someone else who then smacks it in. My full backs aren't bad, they're fairly quick and I think are better than the average ligue 2 type player so I feel they should be doing better.

Play less attacking then and try and create quality over quantity?

When you say your fullbacks don't tackle, how do you mean? Is it a case of them been caught out of position and been too far up the pitch? I find it very hard to believe they don't tackle unless you are over exaggerating? Can you post up their season stats please so I can take a look at them. The ones from the individual form page please.

Your fullbacks are poor even for the level you are at. Both have 11 positioning. In fact from a defensive point Ebondo is really poor, he is good going forward though but he lacks all the defensive attributes imo.

The loanee centreback is good but the other one is average.

I use the shouts: Work Ball; Look for Overlap; Pass Into Space; Exploit Flanks; and then mix between Retain Possession/Pass to Feet and Get Ball Forward

How does your team play when you don't start with these shouts?

You kind of have the wrong set up to use look for overlap imo from the start of a match. I feel this could be one of the issues with the fullbacks.

In the Angers match it looks like all your chances where from range and really poor quality. What did you do in the game to try and win it when you saw things going wrong?

[Dan13L]

Play less attacking then and try and create quality over quantity?

I tried less attacking but then i just get swamped and pinned back in my half and I do struggle to create many decent chances... I struggle when they send their full backs forward and they then play neat little triangles through my defence.

When you say your fullbacks don't tackle, how do you mean? Is it a case of them been caught out of position and been too far up the pitch? I find it very hard to believe they don't tackle unless you are over exaggerating? Can you post up their season stats please so I can take a look at them. The ones from the individual form page please.

I wouldn't say they are caught out of position however both full backs tackling isn't great it seems. I'm not sure if its just a visual quirk, but it does appear that quite often they will just follow the run of the winger inside and and no one will really put in a tackle...

Which CB do you mean Cleon, i don't have a CB on loan...but i sure wish I did sometimes :-)

As you can see i feel that Abondo lost some tackles in a key area that allowed the winger to cross unchallenged.... My question, I can't change Abondo/Pisano now so how do I best use them and hide their inadequacies...more support from the Wingers?

How does your team play when you don't start with these shouts?

I'll be honest, I don't really seem too much change in our play. I know its the age old cliche but at the moment I feel that not much is working. But I don;t know why!

In the Angers match it looks like all your chances where from range and really poor quality. What did you do in the game to try and win it when you saw things going wrong?

Against Angers, as they were a poor team, I expected them to defend so I think I tried dropping deeper and wider to draw them out, pass the ball about and retain and probe but from the heat map it seems like we played more narrow than ever! I have a feeling that my initial plan wasn't working as they started finding space so i played narrow to tighten up and tried the overlap down the flanks.

[Rashidi]

Pretty hard to tell from pure stats what the issue is, cos when I stick up my fullbacks who average like 7.5 tackles per game, the one stat that stands out is distance covered, but I always feel that focusing on stats is usually overkill. Your formations suggests overlapping runs, but distanced covered is far less..than my 2 fullbacks who are set to support....

Looking at your midfield cover, the only impressive one looks like the DMC, i can't say much for the rest either. If i had this team at the start of the season, I'd expect quite a few tense games.

[RocheBag]

His distance is in miles, while yours is in kilometers. Dan13's fullbacks are actually covering just as much distance.

[tajj 7]

I'd try counter as the starting stratgy with that formation, create some space for your extra midfield men to work, maybe have the fullbacks less attackcing, maybe changed to support.

Maybe look to change one of the inside forwards to a winger, create a bit more space as a TM, AP, two IFs will all be operating in theat 'no 10.' space.He'll also get to the byline and cross better for you target man.

Also not sure 'pass into space' shout suits a target man. If he's dropping deep and holding up the ball you'll want to play into his feet and look for one twos off him.

Like Cleon said, look to maybe create more quality openings form a more stable base, you have a formation that should be set up for retaining possession but have a strategy that is more suited to quick tempo get the ball forward style.

[Dan13L]

I tried playing Barazite as a Treq with a counter strategy as he has comes deep and plays 1-2's as his PPM's. We won 3-0 the first time I did this but then the next 3 games were 0-2, 2-2 then 0-0 and I wasn't impressed by our football or defending...

Looking at your midfield cover, the only impressive one looks like the DMC, i can't say much for the rest either. If i had this team at the start of the season, I'd expect quite a few tense games.

According the league stats I'm number 1 in quite a few departments of all areas, so whereas the players might not look so good, compared to the rest of the league I'm not bad. This is whats frustrating me as I'm sure my players aren't as bad as form suggests, but maybe I am asking too much of my players... My full backs aren't great defensively so i thought I'd use their attacking talents and send them bombing forward...basically my thinking is attack is the best form of defence but its not quite panned out that way and I'm wondering why lesser teams are dominating me... Could it be my reputation and a team gelling issue or is it more a tactical issue?

[

[RTHerringbone]

Out of interest, what changed for the Angers game?

In the other two heat maps your AML and AMR are operating at the same width as your wing backs, but they're incredibly narrow against Angers.

It looks as if you moved them into central striker roles.

EDIT - ignore that, have seen you replied to Cleon. "Against Angers, as they were a poor team, I expected them to defend so I think I tried dropping deeper and wider to draw them out, pass the ball about and retain and probe but from the heat map it seems like we played more narrow than ever! I have a feeling that my initial plan wasn't working as they started finding space so i played narrow to tighten up and tried the overlap down the flanks."

Personally I do the opposite against defensive teams. If they're sitting deep and defensive, rather than draw them out to find space, I move up a Strategy to keep them pushed back.

When you say "I played narrow", was that via the "Play Narrow" shout?

[Dan13L]

Out of interest, what changed for the Angers game?

In the other two heat maps your AML and AMR are operating at the same width as your wing backs, but they're incredibly narrow against Angers.

It looks as if you moved them into central striker roles.

Against Angers, as they were a poor team, I expected them to defend so I think I tried dropping deeper and wider to draw them out, pass the ball about and retain and probe but from the heat map it seems like we played more narrow than ever! I have a feeling that my initial plan wasn't working as they started finding space so i played narrow to tighten up and tried the overlap down the flanks.

[Dan13L]

Yeah it was via the play narrow shout

Anyway an update, against Lille I changed to a 4-4-1-1, changed FB's to Defensive and played a BWM and DLP and we put up a good defensive display but was terrible display of football. Possession was terrible, 70/30 and Lille had 35 shots on goal compared to my 9. I tried a few shouts, first to get possession (retain poss/pass to feet) and then to try and hit on the counter (play through defence/get ball forward/pass into space) but my players are thick and instead of playing forward passes like I asked they spin round on it and then get tackled. I eventually lost 2-1 aet.

But Lille are a good team and we defended really well so that was a positive and I decided to move on. The fans were devestated for some reason but Lille are 5th in Ligue 1 so i'm not sure what they expected.

Next up Niort, they're 19th, not won in 7 and i'm hoping we can get over the Lille disappointment with a good win....How wrong I was. I changed back to my 4-1-2-2-1 as above and we got battered 2-0. I just can't seem to find a way to defend against the floods of players they throw forward, especially down the wings with the FB's and when we do finally go on attack there's no space and we can't seem to pass round the AI like they do to me.... Colour me frustrated. Anyway to top things off I got sacked after that game so thats that! I'm still none the wiser.

[Dan13L]

So this is a fairly typical goal i'm conceding, you can see how far advanced their wingers are, they're practically playing with 2 wingers and I just can't deal with it. However I can't do the same to the opp, no matter what I do.

[video=youtube;vi-Zc2x8NV4]

PS I reloaded, tried a couple of different things and got a draw against Noirt and didn't get sacked...

PPS Heres a PKM of the Auxerre game. This is fairly typical of my play. I'm using counter strategy

www.dropbox.com/s/8f95gyylfwhovfs/Monaco%20v%20Auxerre.zip

[iMan]

I played a similar formation to your one in the op but had both IF on Attack and a cm a cm s and dm d combo. Another thing it was Very Fluid.

Wwefan has posted on here that if you have only one specialist role then it's a very fluid system. You only have one with the treq. I've have had good success with largely generic roles and Very Fluid. Any time I've tried something like Balanced with generic roles it hasn't really worked.

I'm not sure if Monaco could play attacking and Very fluid though.

[Dan13L]

Thanks for the tip iMan. Never thought about changing philosophy..i'll try it, can't go any worse!

[Christian Hope]

Personally I'm not so sure about using the very fluid option. Yes, it might make sense if you have only one specialist role, but if you're defenders can't make basic decisions now, I hardly think giving them more phases to work in is going to help, as it will just give them one extra decision to make and mess up. Don't forget that though people have come up with these theories, very rigid for lots of specialist roles, etc, it isn't a given. If you have flair players at a big club, then the last thing you want to do is put them on very rigid and stifle them. At the same time, giving a pants team lots of phases to work in and decisions to make is not really helpful at all as they will probably end up caught out of position and making mistakes in dangerous areas of the pitch, areas you may not want them. In short, the only time I'd use very fluid is if I'm wanting a goal and goaing all out attack so that everyone is involved, or if my players are of the highest quality and feel they're capable of game changing moments.

What formations have you been going up against? I just wonder if it's worth going more risky and focusing on attack whilst the balance of the team is more in that favour. So, for example, if you're up against a team with no AM, or in the guise of a wingers version of 4-4-2/4-2-4, if it's worth you fighting fire with fire and simply going toe to toe with them in the hope that your teams superiority will win through. Another option could be to play a 4-2-3-1 in situations where the opposition plays a 2 man central midfield system, thus giving you the extra man. You can still play one CM defensively if you want, but would have an extra body going forward, which as a bigger team, should be a safer risk. Just wonder if a more swashbuckling style of play will help you out for now. Let's face it, it's not like you can do much worse defensively, so why not go for it? If I was going to play more attacking, then I'd obviously change WB's to FB's and probably go support.

[iMan]

You can get a Very Fluid style to work with lesser teams. After over a half a season I'm 5 points clear in the championship with Forest playing a 4-4-2 VF control tactic. I beat Liverpool and Arsenal in the Carling Cup playing it and I just knocked Wigan out of the FA Cup 3-0 away playing it. All generic player roles aswell.

Very Fluid doesn't automatically mean you are trying to play some type of Total Football and need the greatest players in the game.

[wwfan]

Personally I'm not so sure about using the very fluid option. Yes, it might make sense if you have only one specialist role, but if you're defenders can't make basic decisions now, I hardly think giving them more phases to work in is going to help, as it will just give them one extra decision to make and mess up. Don't forget that though people have come up with these theories, very rigid for lots of specialist roles, etc, it isn't a given. If you have flair players at a big club, then the last thing you want to do is put them on very rigid and stifle them. At the same time, giving a pants team lots of phases to work in and decisions to make is not really helpful at all as they will probably end up caught out of position and making mistakes in dangerous areas of the pitch, areas you may not want them. In short, the only time I'd use very fluid is if I'm wanting a goal and goaing all out attack so that everyone is involved, or if my players are of the highest quality and feel they're capable of game changing moments.

What formations have you been going up against? I just wonder if it's worth going more risky and focusing on attack whilst the balance of the team is more in that favour. So, for example, if you're up against a team with no AM, or in the guise of a wingers version of 4-4-2/4-2-4, if it's worth you fighting fire with fire and simply going toe to toe with them in the hope that your teams superiority will win through. Another option could be to play a 4-2-3-1 in situations where the opposition plays a 2 man central midfield system, thus giving you the extra man. You can still play one CM defensively if you want, but would have an extra body going forward, which as a bigger team, should be a safer risk. Just wonder if a more swashbuckling style of play will help you out for now. Let's face it, it's not like you can do much worse defensively, so why not go for it? If I was going to play more attacking, then I'd obviously change WB's to FB's and probably go support.

There's a little bit of a difference between me saying how the TC works and anyone else saying how the TC works.

[tomtuck01]

There's a little bit of a difference between me saying how the TC works and anyone else saying how the TC works.

Haha just a bit. Laughed my backside off when I read the aformentioned bolded bit.

[Christian Hope]

There's a little bit of a difference between me saying how the TC works and anyone else saying how the TC works.

Well then this obviously aint aimed at you then.

By the way, how did you think that was going to make me feel? Also, why did you feel the need to say that? I re-read through what I put and didn't see anyone's name mentioned.

On another note, do you know where i'll find a guide on PPM training? Been searching through forums and can't find one.

[tomtuck01]

Well then this obviously aint aimed at you then.

By the way, how did you think that was going to make me feel? Also, why did you feel the need to say that? I re-read through what I put and didn't see anyone's name mentioned.

The point he's making is that he is the one who created the TC, so he knows what relates to what. It's not a theory of his or anyone else repeating what he says. It's a stone cold fact.

[wwfan]

Well then this obviously aint aimed at you then.

By the way, how did you think that was going to make me feel? Also, why did you feel the need to say that? I re-read through what I put and didn't see anyone's name mentioned.

On another note, do you know where i'll find a guide on PPM training? Been searching through forums and can't find one.

It was aimed at me, even if you didn't know it. The 'rigid = lots of specialist roles, fluid = few" "theory" is me trying to explain to people how the TC works. I starting writing it this way for FM13 as it became increasingly obvious that people were using the "Very fluid = good players" interpretation which is not how it was ever intended to work. If I tell you that the manager we originally used as an exemplar for "Very Fluid" was Kevin Keegan, perhaps you'll understand why. We've moved away from this now because of the Total Football implications of Very Fluid, but it is still a philosophy of play, not a way of playing only suited for good players playing against poorer ones.

[iMan]

I thought I was Rinus Michels I'm actually Kevin Keegan.

[Dan13L]

So I restarted the game after reading about Cleons pre-season thread and taking on board iMans suggestions about playing more fluid, I'm doing much better this time round. I signed some better players too this haha.

I also decided to set more direct and more disciplined in the team tactics and I am now playing much better. My team are able to get the ball forward and we're not just being pinned back on the edge of the area any more. We seem a bit more cohesive and we are working the opposition defence a bit better. Although I still feel like my team really have to work for a goal and the opposition seem to score really easy goals, things are much better than what they were previously...