What is your opinion ?

[miguelalves]

Just trying to collect some opinions about the issue mentality /CF by the player position

CB (high mentality / high cf)

CB (high mentality / low cf)

CB (low mentality / high cf)

cb (low mentality / low cf)

and the same through all positions.

I do not know if there is any thread that looks this deep to this question, if there is can anyone post a link ? If not, I think it could help us a lot about player's decisions.

[miguelalves]

Right... no opinions

[swallow1050]

What are trying to ask? whats best for each position?

[miguelalves]

How the mentality / CF will affect player decisions with the ball ? For instance the CB's (and / or any other position) will they simply kick the ball to atmosphere or will always try to find a passing solution even if to the goal-keeper ?

[Los_Culés]

Mentality means risk. Higher mentality = more forward (risky) passes. I personally like my CBs on normal mentality as I do not like if they use so many back passes.

Creative freedom usually does not make much difference in CBs play as these players usually have low creativity and flair. In other words they do not see flamboyant options.So even if you give them high CF they will not play like Djalminha.

[miguelalves]

Mentality means risk. Higher mentality = more forward (risky) passes. I personally like my CBs on normal mentality as I do not like if they use so many back passes.

Creative freedom usually does not make much difference in CBs play as these players usually have low creativity and flair. In other words they do not see flamboyant options.So even if you give them high CF they will not play like Djalminha.

As for CB's it is not expected they play as Djalminha :-) my doubt is facing these 4 options what would the be best in order to the CB tries a pass (even if it's a simple one to the goal-keeper) instead of kicking the ball to the sky. And as for CB's the same doubt applies to the other positions on the pitch: what would be the best option for the player going for a pass, instead of anything else ?

[Los_Culés]

As for CB's it is not expected they play as Djalminha :-) my doubt is facing these 4 options what would the be best in order to the CB tries a pass (even if it's a simple one to the goal-keeper) instead of kicking the ball to the sky. And as for CB's the same doubt applies to the other positions on the pitch: what would be the best option for the player going for a pass, instead of anything else ?

Going for a pass? We seem to be on the same note as I want from my defenders the same ie. no stupid clearances.

There are various factors which influence how you defenders act and what they do with the ball:

1. when pressed heavily your best friend is composure (they stay calm) and creativity (they see passing options)

2. if your midfielders have high team work, they will offer themselves for pass much more and so the defenders will have easier work

3. mentality influences mainly if the defenders are willing to play more risky forward passes, if you give your defenders low mentality, they will do more back passes to goalkeeper

4. creative freedom influences more the style of a pass (simple/flamboyant), I think simple is the way to go as regards of defenders

[agentvinz]

If you want your CB not to hoof the ball all the time but to bring the ball out of defence like Barca, set his RWB to sometimes, it helps a lot. My CBs has 85% pass since I use this setting.

[miguelalves]

Going for a pass? We seem to be on the same note as I want from my defenders the same ie. no stupid clearances.

There are various factors which influence how you defenders act and what they do with the ball:

1. when pressed heavily your best friend is composure (they stay calm) and creativity (they see passing options)

2. if your midfielders have high team work, they will offer themselves for pass much more and so the defenders will have easier work

3. mentality influences mainly if the defenders are willing to play more risky forward passes, if you give your defenders low mentality, they will do more back passes to goalkeeper

4. creative freedom influences more the style of a pass (simple/flamboyant), I think simple is the way to go as regards of defenders

So, a defensive or normal (below 10 in the bar mentality) mentality with a high CF will do for CB's... defensive in order to avoid risky or more agressive passes and a normal / high CF for them to see more passing options.

[miguelalves]

If you want your CB not to hoof the ball all the time but to bring the ball out of defence like Barca, set his RWB to sometimes, it helps a lot. My CBs has 85% pass since I use this setting.

Set the rwb to sometimes... what? run from deep ? run with ball ?

[swallow1050]

Setting passing style to short will make defenders play shorter passes along with the rest of the team.

[miguelalves]

Setting passing style to short will make defenders play shorter passes along with the rest of the team.

Yes but that's not the point :-)

[Sussex Hammer]

Mentality means risk. Higher mentality = more forward (risky) passes. I personally like my CBs on normal mentality as I do not like if they use so many back passes.

Surely this is not logical though. For example if you had a poacher on attack why would you want him to make risky forward passes? The poacher should logically be the farthest player up the pitch finishing off chances not playing balls forward to players who may not be ahead of him?!

The whole mentality theory is extremely confusing in FM13. In older versions I believe it was to do with starting position, but now this "more forward/risky passes" theory has appeared and I just don't find it logical at all because if mentalities are set too far apart then you get the old warning messages like "there is a gap between your defence and your midfield" or "there is a gap between the midfield and attack". Now if that's the case how does pass risk come into it? Just because you make more risky passes shouldn't mean gaps appear in your formation?!

Plus what do you then do with a target man, Andy Carroll type? If mentality is more risky forward passes and nothing else then surely a TM should be on a defensive mentality with central midfielders on an attacking mentality? See where the confusion seems to be?

[miguelalves]

Surely this is not logical though. For example if you had a poacher on attack why would you want him to make risky forward passes? The poacher should logically be the farthest player up the pitch finishing off chances not playing balls forward to players who may not be ahead of him?!

The whole mentality theory is extremely confusing in FM13. In older versions I believe it was to do with starting position, but now this "more forward/risky passes" theory has appeared and I just don't find it logical at all because if mentalities are set too far apart then you get the old warning messages like "there is a gap between your defence and your midfield" or "there is a gap between the midfield and attack". Now if that's the case how does pass risk come into it? Just because you make more risky passes shouldn't mean gaps appear in your formation?!

Plus what do you then do with a target man, Andy Carroll type? If mentality is more risky forward passes and nothing else then surely a TM should be on a defensive mentality with central midfielders on an attacking mentality? See where the confusion seems to be?

Right, I tend to think alike and following this argument we could assume that forwards should have normal mentality.

It would be nice, since we are all at SI Forum that someone from SI shed some light on this. Everyone has opinion, maybe some are more logical or reasonable but the truth is that we are all guessing here.

[Sussex Hammer]

Right, I tend to think alike and following this argument we could assume that forwards should have normal mentality.

It would be nice, since we are all at SI Forum that someone from SI shed some light on this. Everyone has opinion, maybe some are more logical or reasonable but the truth is that we are all guessing here.

Well wwfan made some "explanations" after I questioned one or two things and they can be read here

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/350047-How-to-Play-FM13-Definitions-Concepts-and-Holistic-Tactics

The problem is there is still a fair amount of ambiguity even with those explanations. There is a lot of confusion I still think in this game and mentality, closing down and creative freedom are at the crux of that confusion. I think half the issue is that in my opinion real life football is a mixed bag. What I mean by that is for example a centre forward in the Andy Carroll mode. In real life Carroll may hold up the ball in a counter attack and play the ball back to a midfielder, but also he may hit a direct pass on the turn to a wide man or flick the ball on to a forward running midfielder. As I say a mixed bag. But in FM you have a hold up ball setting so do you tick that in say a counter attack tactic or does holding the ball up all the time ruin the essence of a counter attack? Yet if you don't tick hold up ball will he ever hold it up? Also if you use him as a target man you can go head aim, feet aim or run onto ball. Or of course mixed. Now Carroll aim to feet, yep. Aim to head, yep but run onto ball no if you are playing to his strengths so that makes a mixed setting risky as you don't want him to run onto ball yet there isn't a setting to aim just at feet and head.

Some will then say that then means a need to apply creative freedom. So do you give a Carroll a low CF or a high CF? wwfan suggested that you could give Carroll a high CF to stop him taking long shots all the time. I tried that and he takes more long shots than he did on a lower CF. So there is a major confusion on exactly the meaning of what things mean.

I think that there is a major issue on what decides a players "starting position", if it's not mentality then what is it? defensive line? that would be even more confusing. Anyone who has ever played football knows pretty much on where his general position is and then you take it from there with regard to closing down, forward runs etc. But if you cannot be sure where a players starting position is then everything else becomes very much random guesswork.

[miguelalves]

Yes, I have read that thread by wwfan and although it can help, it also can make more confusion :-) as you said Sussex Hammer, you tried increasing Carroll's CF and he started taking more long shots... that is why I wrote we are all guessing and maybe only SI could help us a little, I mean, teach us how to fish because no one is pretending the fish on the plate :-)

[swallow1050]

With Carroll having high CF, i believe that you are basically telling him that to only loosely follow instructions, and so he makes his own decisions; one of his ppm's is to power shots in, so whats likely is that he will stick to what he knows and take shots.

Looking on my game (in 2018) he only has 10 decisions, flair and 9 creativity; so giving him creative licence doesn't sound the best way to get the best out of him.

[miguelalves]

I'm guessing that CF is (also) linked to ppm's, i.e., CF is linked either to mental attributes as to ppm's.

So, high CF is about telling the player to make other decisions instead of sticking with individual instructions. But why would his decisions should be more risky ? and why individual instructions set by us are less risky ? And the gold question: how to make players to pass the ball with less risk and only when there is an opportunity, bang, a killer pass ?

[wwfan]

My suggestion is that you all stop thinking about mentality and CF as individual settings and employ them team-wide. None of you seem to have much of an idea as to how either work because your own opinions conflict with what you have read. There are no best settings for any single position or player, so searching for them is a waste of time.

[miguelalves]

My suggestion is that you all stop thinking about mentality and CF as individual settings and employ them team-wide. None of you seem to have much of an idea as to how either work because your own opinions conflict with what you have read. There are no best settings for any single position or player, so searching for them is a waste of time.

It's because we are thinking about mentality and CF not as individual settings that these doubts remain and although I started the thread asking for best mentality / CF by position, I have changed that to best option to keep the team passing the ball. The problem is precisely that these two settings cannot be seen separated (as for others as well, but these two seems to create more confusion) and we cannot rely on the fm manual because it does not explain much, so it's understable that this is the best place to shade some light. We (clients of SI) keep sharing opinions and ideas increasing the confusion, but you guys could elucidate us and doing so making the game even more enjoyable.

[Los_Culés]

Surely this is not logical though. For example if you had a poacher on attack why would you want him to make risky forward passes? The poacher should logically be the farthest player up the pitch finishing off chances not playing balls forward to players who may not be ahead of him?!

Attacking mentality for poachers is recommended by the tactical creator, not by me .It really depends on many factors. And I also did not say that mentality is more risky passes and nothing else.

I can clearly see from the ME that mentality influences at least the amount of risk a player is willing to take, his attacking position and his defensive position.

[Sussex Hammer]

Attacking mentality for poachers is recommended by the tactical creator, not by me .It really depends on many factors. And I also did not say that mentality is more risky passes and nothing else.

I can clearly see from the ME that mentality influences at least the amount of risk a player is willing to take, his attacking position and his defensive position.

Oh indeed, sorry my post could have been worded better. That's the issue in itself a lot of things could be worded better. For instance the TC suggests "Run From Deep - often" for a poacher I think. I had visions of a poacher running back to the half way line before darting forward all the time like he was doing shuttle runs!! Whereas apparently RFD means Forward Runs. Through balls, if on often how often does a player make them? Roam From Position - Is that just in the offensive phase of play? Creative Freedom - Linked to flair or decisions?

As I say so many areas of ambiguity but also of major interest but unfortunately we are just to employ them through the TC which is fine but it would be nice to know what we are employing and as to why. The post above suggests that "There are no best settings for any single position or player, so searching for them is a waste of time." but surely there are fairly ideal settings for "a type of player" whether it's an Andy Carroll/Peter Crouch type or a Darren Bent/Michael Owen type.

[miguelalves]

As I say so many areas of ambiguity but also of major interest but unfortunately we are just to employ them through the TC which is fine but it would be nice to know what we are employing and as to why. The post above suggests that "There are no best settings for any single position or player, so searching for them is a waste of time." but surely there are fairly ideal settings for "a type of player" whether it's an Andy Carroll/Peter Crouch type or a Darren Bent/Michael Owen type.

I agree with that, but the idea is not about finding the best individual settings. I do not have a clue why wwfan gave emphasis to this when it was not an issue, because no one is trying to discuss mentality and CF separately

[Svenc]

The whole mentality theory is extremely confusing in FM13. In older versions I believe it was to do with starting position, but now this "more forward/risky passes" theory has appeared and I just don't find it logical at all because if mentalities are set too far apart then you get the old warning messages like "there is a gap between your defence and your midfield" or "there is a gap between the midfield and attack". Now if that's the case how does pass risk come into it? Just because you make more risky passes shouldn't mean gaps appear in your formation?!

That is because mentality doesn't merely affect positioning. It's always been that way, it never used to affect merely positioning (in combination with runs). If you want to have a bit of a chuckle as to how convulted the setup can be for newcomers (as well as longtime players), see this thread. None of this has fundamentally changed: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/108695-Ditch-the-quot-mentality-quot-slider-altogether. There's no point in puzzling out abstract video game mechanics now as that has largely been done with ever since the TC came about.

One slider in isolation I've always been wondering about is the closing down one, namely because I often barely saw a significant difference as far as attacking the ball carrier was concerned. I saw strikers with zero closing down hunting down CBs just as well as those with highest closing down standing off them, for instance. But closingn down behavior has made a big shift in between FM 12 and earlier and FM 13 - namely teams now actually close down in hordes rather than with individual players. But since I only played the demo occasionally, I don't know if the difference is any more pronounced than it used to be. At least in theory, the collateral damage of nonsensical closing down instructions (sitting deep, closing down max) should be higher than it used to be, since it is multiple players getting dragged out of position whilst attacking the ball carrier, and thus providing no additional cover which could still see the attacker stopped.

The poacher should logically be the farthest player up the pitch finishing off chances not playing balls forward to players who may not be ahead of him?!

No options means no pass, naturally.

[wwfan]

It's because we are thinking about mentality and CF not as individual settings that these doubts remain and although I started the thread asking for best mentality / CF by position, I have changed that to best option to keep the team passing the ball. The problem is precisely that these two settings cannot be seen separated (as for others as well, but these two seems to create more confusion) and we cannot rely on the fm manual because it does not explain much, so it's understable that this is the best place to shade some light. We (clients of SI) keep sharing opinions and ideas increasing the confusion, but you guys could elucidate us and doing so making the game even more enjoyable.

There is no "best" option.

Mentality and CF are holistic settings. The philosophies/styles are mentality and creative freedom structures. They range from being very structured (i.e. individual mentality settings) with low creative freedom, to being very unstructured (i.e one mentality setting across the team) with lots of creative freedom. A useful interpretation would be as follows:

Very Rigid: Each player is given a job and is supposed to stick to it (usually 5+ different roles across a team)

Rigid: Players are assigned a responsibility that contributes to a specific element of play (Defence, defence & transition, transition & attack, attack)

Balanced: Players focus on their duty (Defend, Support, Attack)

Fluid: Players are given instructions to focus on defence or attack

Very Fluid: Players contribute to all aspects of play

As you can see, each step reduces the level of specialisation. At Very Rigid, you have five different roles, Rigid four responsibilities, Balanced three duties, Fluid two focuses, Very Fluid one method. In Very Rigid philosophies, you expect players to stick to their role, so can assign multiple specialist roles. In Very Fluid philosophies, you expect everybody to do a bit of everything, which means specialist roles are redundant.

The mentalities of every player in the squad are changed when you cycle through the strategies, thus (NB: these are estimates of the values):

Very Rigid / Attack / Defend

GK / 14 / 4

DCs / 15 / 5

FBs / 16 / 6

MCs / 17 / 7

Wingers / 18 / 8

FCs / 19 / 9

Very Fluid / Attack / Defend

GK / 16 / 6

DCs / 16 / 6

FBs / 16 / 6

MCs / 16 / 6

Wingers / 16 / 6

FCs / 16 / 6

As you can see, there is no absolute setting for any player. It all depends on the strategy. Within this broad mentality structure are some other basic mentality settings referring to role. Some roles add +2 or more to the default mentality and some - 2 or more, depending on whether the role is supposed to encourage the player to push ahead of or drop behind play.

Creative Freedom relates to how much freedom you wish to give each player. If you think players should follow instructions at all time, then Very Rigid, individualised mentalities and low CF is the best option. In order to stop play being too rigid, you will probably need a lot of specialised roles to add the creativity and flair. If you think players should be given their head and everyone in the team should contribute to all aspects of play, then Very Fluid, holistic mentality and high CF is the best option. There is no point in lots of specialised roles as the high CF will override them anyway.

None of these settings ever provide a "best" option to help the team pass the ball. Your strategy, formation and passing settings do that. If you want to play keep ball, a lower mentality strategy plus a lot of players in the back three strata are necessary. If you want to play more direct, it is better to have a more attacking strategy and more players in the front three strata.

The post above suggests that "There are no best settings for any single position or player, so searching for them is a waste of time." but surely there are fairly ideal settings for "a type of player" whether it's an Andy Carroll/Peter Crouch type or a Darren Bent/Michael Owen type.

As the above makes clear, there are no best mentality or CF settings for any player or position. They are holistic settings that determine how the team approaches a match. The individual instructions sliders provide "best settings" for any specific player, not sliders that are team based. Team based sliders determine how the team plays. In the TC, these are set through philosophy, strategy and the adjustments. Individual sliders determine how a specific player plays, which are set in the TC by roles and duties.

There are some exceptions. For example, as mentioned above, some roles have +/- mentality settings if the role encourages the player to push ahead or drop behind play. Some roles have specific passing settings if the player is supposed to dictate passing (playmaker roles). Some roles have increased CF and decreased tackling and CD (e.g. TQ, as the role has no defensive responsibility). Other roles have increased CD and tackling (e.g. BWM and defensive forwards/wingers) as the player has an increased responsibility to try to win the ball. All can be further altered by shouts.

However, all work within the holistic patterns determined by philosophy and strategy. As soon as you try to fiddle around with those sliders at individual levels, you risk breaking up the holistic of a strategy. There is no reason, ever, to think about a CF slider in terms of a player's creativity and flair, or to think that a player has to have a high mentality because he is a poacher. All are relative within the philosophy and strategy settings. Once you fiddle with these sliders, you change the related settings and all hell can break loose. If you really know what you are doing, you will be able to design a good tactic. However, if you don't, you'll experience either randomness or disaster.

There is simply never any reason to think of best mentality or CF settings for any player or any position. If you are trying to find them, you don't understand how sliders work and should use the TC. If you already know how sliders work, then you'll realise there's no reason not to use the TC because it does all the things you should be doing anyway, and in seconds not hours.

I think that there is a major issue on what decides a players "starting position", if it's not mentality then what is it? defensive line? that would be even more confusing. Anyone who has ever played football knows pretty much on where his general position is and then you take it from there with regard to closing down, forward runs etc. But if you cannot be sure where a players starting position is then everything else becomes very much random guesswork.

Starting position is determined by the player's position in the formation. Mentality can encourage the player to drop deeper or push up a little, but only within the strict confines of the position he occupies in the formation. Everything is relative to the formation. Mentality is not an absolute setting. As soon as you start thinking it is and determine that DCs should have the lowest mentality (i.e. 1) and the FCs the highest (i.e. 20), you make the overall formation incoherent because of the degrees of risk taking and movement it results in. Your forwards will push up and look for high risk runs / passes all the time. However, the defence has been told never to play even a slightly risky pass. When they have the ball, they will be confronted with a midfield and attack moving into aggressive positions, but refuse to pass to them because of the risky nature of the pass. They might either pass between each other or boot the ball long because they are the only two risk free options available. If the rest of the team is similarly risk averse (i.e. low mentality), they will stay deeper and offer easy passes.

As I said in my previous post, if you don't know what mentality and CF does, then trust the TC, as it does. You are getting sucked into the micro-management of sliders, which is paradoxical given your belief that all players should be given their heads to do what comes naturally. As I have stated before, the TC does allow for such a philosophy. You should use the following settings as a base:

Philosophy: Very Fluid

Strategy: Standard

Roles (4-4-2):

GK: GK/D

FBs: FB/Auto

DCs: DC/D

MCs: CM/D & CM/S

WMs: WM/A

FCs: DLF/S & AF/A

To get a little more movement between the lines, give one FB an Attack duty and the WM in front of him a Support duty. Ideally, have the AF and CM/S playing on that side of the pitch. This exactly matches your descriptions of how you think football should be played.

Initially, just use strategy changes to focus more on attacking or defending. As you become more sophisticated, you can use adjustments to support or protect strengths and weaknesses in your team. Over time, you can begin to play around with shouts to cope with on pitch conditions. Or you can continue tweaking and failing to understand sliders and get more and more frustrated.

[miguelalves]

Ok, now we are beggining to getting something. So taking in consideration this explanation, it is fair to say that mentality and cf sliders work better if not tweaked or if they must be tweaked it is better working with both and not just one or another in order to maintain the tactic coherence.

[lam]

Until you have a very strong grasp of the game DO NOT TWEAK THE SLIDERS............... STICK WITH TEAM INSTRUCTIONS AND PLAYER INSTRUCTIONS as assigned by the TC.

This is the downfall of so many players.

We all watch football and we all think we can do a better job than the managers of our selected teams, however, we are NOT managers and it's unlikely that we'll ever get close to even trying the real thing, add to that that this is a game and you are then dealing with so many factors that unless you understand management AND the game, you will struggle with minor tweaks.

Just leave them alone for a while, choose the right players for right positions and the way you want to play and things should start to work out. Then watch lots of games and ONLY then tweak when you see glaring errors.

I've said it time and time again (not that anyone has to listen to me), but I learnt the game by removing things that the players couldn't do before I started making them do things differently. The key to it is watching lots of games!

LAM

[miguelalves]

Until you have a very strong grasp of the game DO NOT TWEAK THE SLIDERS............... STICK WITH TEAM INSTRUCTIONS AND PLAYER INSTRUCTIONS as assigned by the TC.

This is the downfall of so many players.

We all watch football and we all think we can do a better job than the managers of our selected teams, however, we are NOT managers and it's unlikely that we'll ever get close to even trying the real thing, add to that that this is a game and you are then dealing with so many factors that unless you understand management AND the game, you will struggle with minor tweaks.

Just leave them alone for a while, choose the right players for right positions and the way you want to play and things should start to work out. Then watch lots of games and ONLY then tweak when you see glaring errors.

I've said it time and time again (not that anyone has to listen to me), but I learnt the game by removing things that the players couldn't do before I started making them do things differently. The key to it is watching lots of games!

LAM

Agree :-) since I have use my tactics by default and using shouts, the team has a lot more fluid game, enjoyable to watch and players know what to do with the ball

[lam]

Agree :-) since I have use my tactics by default and using shouts, the team has a lot more fluid game, enjoyable to watch and players know what to do with the ball

Great!

Take some time to look at the player instructions vs the team ones vs the style of play and understand what it does to them. Most required changes to a team can be acheived through a change in style and strategy. WWFans post in #25 is key here. Load up player mentalities on the team screen and then tweak the style of play and see what it does to them. If you wanted players to play more to their duty (which is what I tend to opt for) then use Balanced (whcih in my view is often a good place to start), if you like the idea of a split team, ie one attacking and the other defending then opt for a more fluid approach.

Read WWFans descriptions (and I think Cleon made some notes elsewhere too) but also read the ingame description BUT play around with them in the tactical screen, go through all the settings.... cf, mentality, throughballs etc etc to see the impact.

LAM

[miguelalves]

Thanks :-)

I have started the thread not with the intention to establish a better setting for each player seeing mentality and CF individualy but to try some understanding of player's trends or most likely decisions by their mentality / CF: low / low; low / high; high / low; high / high;

[Sussex Hammer]

I have actually been thinking about this. Take an example of a winger in the TC. Say his settings in an attacking phase are RWB - Often, RFD - Often, TB - Often, Cross Ball - Often, Cross from Byline. All very specific instructions especially if the player has low stats in say dribbling and crossing, so would you want him dribbling and crossing often? Looking through a player search unless you are very lucky only the top teams would be able to find wingers with excellent stats in BOTH dribbling and crossing and studying the cross completion rates in my game for the Premier League interestingly enough there are very few wide me in the list. The best cross completion rates come from central defenders and midfielders. I can only assume that this is because they perform less crosses than wingers so would probably have a lower failure rate, but that's for another discussion!!

Back to my example. Say that winger has good decisions and flair, which some assume are the attributes on CF, would you then have him as high CF with everything on mixed so he uses his head on when to perform each task? I did an experiment where I had my best winger on "often" for all bar long shots with a high CF and medium mentality and I must say 99% of the time he dribbled with the ball inside, so maybe an instruction of hug touchline would be better? And rather than a higher mentality forward runs also have an effect on a players position.

At the same time take David Beckham as a winger. No pace or dribbling stats but a great passer and crosser so obvious instructions are cross from deep and through balls often, but would you give him high CF or low? Would high mean he would deviate to those instructions and maybe run with the ball whereas low CF would mean he sticks to what you have told him?

So as far as I can tell there isn't a link to mentality and CF, Beckham last night could be considered to have a high CF in the deep lying role he played.

I think that the one thing that is confusing is probably the little drop down menu in the tactics screen where for tackling you get tackling stats, RFD you get decision stats, CF you get flair stats, I think these are confusing and maybe should be eradicated. I think there is more than one ability that makes a player perform a role. RFD apart from decisions you would require off the ball skills and for CF aside from flair decisions and off the ball skills are important. For instance there isn't much point in giving a player a free attacking midfield role with roaming if his off the ball stat is 6!!!

[miguelalves]

I have actually been thinking about this. Take an example of a winger in the TC. Say his settings in an attacking phase are RWB - Often, RFD - Often, TB - Often, Cross Ball - Often, Cross from Byline. All very specific instructions especially if the player has low stats in say dribbling and crossing, so would you want him dribbling and crossing often? Looking through a player search unless you are very lucky only the top teams would be able to find wingers with excellent stats in BOTH dribbling and crossing and studying the cross completion rates in my game for the Premier League interestingly enough there are very few wide me in the list. The best cross completion rates come from central defenders and midfielders. I can only assume that this is because they perform less crosses than wingers so would probably have a lower failure rate, but that's for another discussion!!

Back to my example. Say that winger has good decisions and flair, which some assume are the attributes on CF, would you then have him as high CF with everything on mixed so he uses his head on when to perform each task? I did an experiment where I had my best winger on "often" for all bar long shots with a high CF and medium mentality and I must say 99% of the time he dribbled with the ball inside, so maybe an instruction of hug touchline would be better? And rather than a higher mentality forward runs also have an effect on a players position.

At the same time take David Beckham as a winger. No pace or dribbling stats but a great passer and crosser so obvious instructions are cross from deep and through balls often, but would you give him high CF or low? Would high mean he would deviate to those instructions and maybe run with the ball whereas low CF would mean he sticks to what you have told him?

So as far as I can tell there isn't a link to mentality and CF, Beckham last night could be considered to have a high CF in the deep lying role he played.

I think that the one thing that is confusing is probably the little drop down menu in the tactics screen where for tackling you get tackling stats, RFD you get decision stats, CF you get flair stats, I think these are confusing and maybe should be eradicated. I think there is more than one ability that makes a player perform a role. RFD apart from decisions you would require off the ball skills and for CF aside from flair decisions and off the ball skills are important. For instance there isn't much point in giving a player a free attacking midfield role with roaming if his off the ball stat is 6!!!

For instance, what would you say in a 4-5-1 (1 DM, 1 DLP, 1AP) the dm stays in his position and the other two have roam from position and move into channels ? Is this appropriate? The logic here is the two midfielders support the FB's or WB's run's from deep and also getting close to the inside forwards. As the CB's and the DM are set to stay in position this would create a back line of 3 and the getting all others on attack (although some of them with support roles and other with attack roles). Does this have logic ?

[Sussex Hammer]

For instance, what would you say in a 4-5-1 (1 DM, 1 DLP, 1AP) the dm stays in his position and the other two have roam from position and move into channels ? Is this appropriate? The logic here is the two midfielders support the FB's or WB's run's from deep and also getting close to the inside forwards. As the CB's and the DM are set to stay in position this would create a back line of 3 and the getting all others on attack (although some of them with support roles and other with attack roles). Does this have logic ?

I couldn't answer that without once again getting a definitive confirmed description of "move into channels".. Once again an FM instruction that seemingly after several years 100% of people still don't agree what it means. a. move into the wide areas of the pitch, or b. move into the space between centre backs and full backs. It could mean either. As a player I assumed move into channels was the wider areas of the pitch but I can see the logic of the meaning of (b) although why would you have an option for your centre backs to perform option b?? There again if it is option (a) how would a player with "hug touchline" and "move into channels" perform? See what I mean, too much confusion. It's like having a lone striker with "move into channels", "run with ball" and "forward runs often", if MIC is option (a) where on earth is he going?!?!?!

[miguelalves]

I couldn't answer that without once again getting a definitive confirmed description of "move into channels".. Once again an FM instruction that seemingly after several years 100% of people still don't agree what it means. a. move into the wide areas of the pitch, or b. move into the space between centre backs and full backs. It could mean either. As a player I assumed move into channels was the wider areas of the pitch but I can see the logic of the meaning of (b) although why would you have an option for your centre backs to perform option b?? There again if it is option (a) how would a player with "hug touchline" and "move into channels" perform? See what I mean, too much confusion. It's like having a lone striker with "move into channels", "run with ball" and "forward runs often", if MIC is option (a) where on earth is he going?!?!?!

Not my CB's performing option b, my CB's and DM are staying in position, at the middle, my deep-lying playmaker and advanced playmaker are roaming and moving into channels as well the trequartista. Been trying to upload an image, but I keep getting a message "invalid url"

[miguelalves]

The Right full-back is set to attack and not defend.

Managing FC Porto and having good players with fairly good attributes such as Moutinho, Quaresma, James Rodríguez, Fernando, etc, etc I would expect a lot of possession combined with several beatings at least at the portuguese league.

[lam]

I have actually been thinking about this. Take an example of a winger in the TC. Say his settings in an attacking phase are RWB - Often, RFD - Often, TB - Often, Cross Ball - Often, Cross from Byline. All very specific instructions especially if the player has low stats in say dribbling and crossing, so would you want him dribbling and crossing often? Looking through a player search unless you are very lucky only the top teams would be able to find wingers with excellent stats in BOTH dribbling and crossing and studying the cross completion rates in my game for the Premier League interestingly enough there are very few wide me in the list. The best cross completion rates come from central defenders and midfielders. I can only assume that this is because they perform less crosses than wingers so would probably have a lower failure rate, but that's for another discussion!!

Back to my example. Say that winger has good decisions and flair, which some assume are the attributes on CF, would you then have him as high CF with everything on mixed so he uses his head on when to perform each task? I did an experiment where I had my best winger on "often" for all bar long shots with a high CF and medium mentality and I must say 99% of the time he dribbled with the ball inside, so maybe an instruction of hug touchline would be better? And rather than a higher mentality forward runs also have an effect on a players position.

At the same time take David Beckham as a winger. No pace or dribbling stats but a great passer and crosser so obvious instructions are cross from deep and through balls often, but would you give him high CF or low? Would high mean he would deviate to those instructions and maybe run with the ball whereas low CF would mean he sticks to what you have told him?

So as far as I can tell there isn't a link to mentality and CF, Beckham last night could be considered to have a high CF in the deep lying role he played.

I think that the one thing that is confusing is probably the little drop down menu in the tactics screen where for tackling you get tackling stats, RFD you get decision stats, CF you get flair stats, I think these are confusing and maybe should be eradicated. I think there is more than one ability that makes a player perform a role. RFD apart from decisions you would require off the ball skills and for CF aside from flair decisions and off the ball skills are important. For instance there isn't much point in giving a player a free attacking midfield role with roaming if his off the ball stat is 6!!!

The issue you raise is one of the key examples I give on how I learnt the game.

Playing as Spurs, I always had the choice between Lennon and Bentley. They were both wingers, but very different ones at that. Bentley was a great crosser of the ball, but was slow and could not dribble, whereas Lennon was a poorer crosser of the ball and weaker, however he had the ability to get past his opposition most of the time and thus create time and space for his poorer crossing.

I set these two chaps up very differently and both sets of instruction came from trying to stop them doing things that they were not very good at. I used the same set of default instructions as I wanted to keep as much default as possible to allow for changes in shouts/strategy etc

Lennon was

RFD mixed (as I wanted him running AT players, not starting beyond them)

RWB often (stands to reason as he could dribble)

TTB Rare (he couldn't pass for toffee)

Cross (often as he always created the space and had the time)

Cross from Byline (as he could easily get there).

Bentley was this:

RFD Often (because he could not get past his opponents when in possession, he had to try to get past them without the ball)

RWB mixed (he could dribble, but just lacked the pace)

TTB mixed (he was a decent passer and was sometimes better off passing when facing an opposition and having a flanking wingback)

Cross Often (he could cross well)

Cross from mixed (as he generally was NOT fast enough to get to the byline and then still have time to get the cross in). You'd quite often see him pick up the ball in an advanced position and whip in a cross immediately.

So, this is where I learnt about the TC..... I started REMOVING instructions rather than adding them. Which is generally the opposite of how most people work.

[lam]

For instance, what would you say in a 4-5-1 (1 DM, 1 DLP, 1AP) the dm stays in his position and the other two have roam from position and move into channels ? Is this appropriate? The logic here is the two midfielders support the FB's or WB's run's from deep and also getting close to the inside forwards. As the CB's and the DM are set to stay in position this would create a back line of 3 and the getting all others on attack (although some of them with support roles and other with attack roles). Does this have logic ?

I wouldn't suggest that. Moving into channels will occupy space that your wingbacks are going to be moving into (unless you have them on cutting inside - which works very nicely with certain types of players). Also, you combination of MC/DM does not really allow any of them to storm forward to support an attack. I would look to use one MC(S/A) in there somewhere (player dependent).

If your DM doesnt move forwards to much then his presence will allow for your DC's to play a little wider in turn supporting the attacking FB's.

Interestingly, with your diagram, you have your ATTACKING MC supporting your attacking fullback.... so they are both advanced and leaving a gap down the flank, where as on the other side you have your SUPPORTING MC supporting the defensive fullback. If you wanted to work it this way, you may provide better support by switching the MC pair or the FB pair around.

Have you looked through Cleons epic thread about understaind the tactic? Most of it focuses on this formation, though it is very specifici to the Spurs team.

[miguelalves]

I wouldn't suggest that. Moving into channels will occupy space that your wingbacks are going to be moving into (unless you have them on cutting inside - which works very nicely with certain types of players). Also, you combination of MC/DM does not really allow any of them to storm forward to support an attack. I would look to use one MC(S/A) in there somewhere (player dependent).

If your DM doesnt move forwards to much then his presence will allow for your DC's to play a little wider in turn supporting the attacking FB's.

Interestingly, with your diagram, you have your ATTACKING MC supporting your attacking fullback.... so they are both advanced and leaving a gap down the flank, where as on the other side you have your SUPPORTING MC supporting the defensive fullback. If you wanted to work it this way, you may provide better support by switching the MC pair or the FB pair around.

Have you looked through Cleons epic thread about understaind the tactic? Most of it focuses on this formation, though it is very specifici to the Spurs team.

Thanks, great help.

The defensive fullback is not defensive :-) my mistake, he's also attacking fullback. So I guess I am leaving a gap in my both flanks.

Indeed my DM does not move forward, he stays on his position. When looking to match analysis at the end of matches, looking to the thermic positioning my 4-3-3 turns in a 2-3-2-2-1... 2 CB's, the wing-backs making a second line with the DM, third line with the DLP and AP, 4th line with the inside forwards and the trequartista.

I will try the wing backs with support role instead of attack

By DC's you mean my centre-back ? do not know how to make them playing wider.

[kevin3]

The whole mentality theory is extremely confusing in FM13. In older versions I believe it was to do with starting position, but now this "more forward/risky passes" theory has appeared and I just don't find it logical at all because if mentalities are set too far apart then you get the old warning messages like "there is a gap between your defence and your midfield" or "there is a gap between the midfield and attack". Now if that's the case how does pass risk come into it? Just because you make more risky passes shouldn't mean gaps appear in your formation?!

Plus what do you then do with a target man, Andy Carroll type? If mentality is more risky forward passes and nothing else then surely a TM should be on a defensive mentality with central midfielders on an attacking mentality? See where the confusion seems to be?

I think the confusion around mentality stems from the manual saying that mentality directly influences positioning. That can lead to some people thinking that if they increase or decrease the mentality slider by x amount of notches, it will make them play x amount of yards higher or lower on the pitch. Surely though that is illogical when you think of the true definition of mentality, which concerns a person's mental state of mind or way of thinking.

In my experience of FM, I find that mentality influences positioning in combination with runs from deep. If you want to change the general positioning of a player, then runs from deep will have the most dramatic effect. What mentality does is decide how early or late a player will make that run.

Consider two full-backs with runs from deep often, but one has mentality of 15 and the other 5. The more attacking full back is likely to make a forward run early in an attacking move and because of this, he will be in a more advanced position for the rest of the move, which could lead to gaps appearing between the back four. The more defensive minded full back is likely to hang back a little bit more and wait later in the attacking move when there is a better chance to get forward. He will be more reluctant to go past his marker in fear of leaving a gap in behind, but because of the runs from deep often instruction, he is likely to end up in just as an advanced a position as the more attack minded full back, but just at different stages in the attacking move.

As well as influencing positioning, mentality will affect the general attacking or defensive nature of a player. Increasing mentality could lead to more forward passes, shots, dribbles, through balls etc.

To give you an issue around mentality I had, I'll use my Barca save. I had a go using classic tactics and below is the mentality framework I used for my midfield and forwards.

Busquets : 8

Xavi : 8

Iniesta : 8

Pedro : 15

Villa : 15

Messi : 8

Villa and Pedro both had runs from deep often, Xavi and Iniesta were on mixed and Busquets and Messi were on rarely. Messi and Iniesta both had roaming instructions.

The idea was that I would have a very fluid midfield three combined with Messi dropping deep, and I would be able to keep the ball through the centre of the pitch whilst using the wings to create direct attacking runs for my playmakers to play them in.

Now this was on FM12 and the tactic was successful, but it lead to a very particular style of play in the attacking phase which wasn't quite what I was after. I wanted to play possession football and against some teams this tactic would prevent it from happening. Basically what would happen is that Messi would drop deep and find himself in oceans of room, but sometimes there would be no obvious simple pass to a team mate on - mainly due to a spacing issue and partly because of Messi's style of play. Villa and Pedro would make early attacking runs in behind, and Iniesta and Xavi were reluctant to go past their marker and give him support quick enough. That would leave Messi in plenty of space, but the only passes on were the direct through-balls into my wide attackers, and because of Messi's ppms and high creative freedom that I gave him, he thought why not.

So I changed the mentality structure round a little:

Busquets : 8

Xavi : 8

Iniesta : 12

Pedro : 12

Villa : 12

Messi : 8

Changing the mentality of Iniesta, Villa and Pedro meant that Messi had better options to choose from. Iniesta was more willing to go by his marker and give Messi earlier support whilst Pedro and Villa would would delay their forward run a little and give a simple passing option.

[miguelalves]

Awesome Kevin.

When changed the mentality structure did you also change the CF structure ?

Linking mentality with runs from deep, do you think is plausible to link CF with run with ball ? I am asking because a player that runs with ball will most likely use dribling, shooting...

Taking your idea into account what would happen with players with higher or lower mentality but with runs from deep set to rarely ?

[Sussex Hammer]

The issue you raise is one of the key examples I give on how I learnt the game.

Playing as Spurs, I always had the choice between Lennon and Bentley. They were both wingers, but very different ones at that. Bentley was a great crosser of the ball, but was slow and could not dribble, whereas Lennon was a poorer crosser of the ball and weaker, however he had the ability to get past his opposition most of the time and thus create time and space for his poorer crossing.

I set these two chaps up very differently and both sets of instruction came from trying to stop them doing things that they were not very good at. I used the same set of default instructions as I wanted to keep as much default as possible to allow for changes in shouts/strategy etc

Lennon was

RFD mixed (as I wanted him running AT players, not starting beyond them)

RWB often (stands to reason as he could dribble)

TTB Rare (he couldn't pass for toffee)

Cross (often as he always created the space and had the time)

Cross from Byline (as he could easily get there).

Bentley was this:

RFD Often (because he could not get past his opponents when in possession, he had to try to get past them without the ball)

RWB mixed (he could dribble, but just lacked the pace)

TTB mixed (he was a decent passer and was sometimes better off passing when facing an opposition and having a flanking wingback)

Cross Often (he could cross well)

Cross from mixed (as he generally was NOT fast enough to get to the byline and then still have time to get the cross in). You'd quite often see him pick up the ball in an advanced position and whip in a cross immediately.

So, this is where I learnt about the TC..... I started REMOVING instructions rather than adding them. Which is generally the opposite of how most people work.

To be honest I do similar. I just use "classic tactics" mainly because the TC has many individual roles like "often this" and "often that". The problem I have with my West Ham squad especially early years is that there are very few stats players have over 15 so as you say it's pointless having my wingers on "cross often" with crossing stats of 13 and 14. Pretty much most things bar my centre backs and a DM I have on mixed so they have the opportunity to do most things and I use a global mentality as well. Hence the reason why I am very interested in creative freedom although I must say I don't really see much difference in whether you use high or low.

Most positions perform pretty well it's just the lone forward I have an issue with getting him goals and that's my biggest concern. In 28 games I have only conceded 10 but scored only 31 and that's due to a lack of goals from the striker. I have tried every setting possible and yet the player plays the same, or so it seems,. Again that's why I am interested in CF and do wonder what settings to use on a lone forward.

[wwfan]

So I changed the mentality structure round a little:

Busquets : 8

Xavi : 8

Iniesta : 12

Pedro : 12

Villa : 12

Messi : 8

Changing the mentality of Iniesta, Villa and Pedro meant that Messi had better options to choose from. Iniesta was more willing to go by his marker and give Messi earlier support whilst Pedro and Villa would would delay their forward run a little and give a simple passing option.

Basically fluid with Messi as a TQ.

[Äktsjon Männ]

If you want to have a bit of a chuckle as to how convulted the setup can be for newcomers (as well as longtime players), see this thread. None of this has fundamentally changed: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/108695-Ditch-the-quot-mentality-quot-slider-altogether. There's no point in puzzling out abstract video game mechanics now as that has largely been done with ever since the TC came about.

Interesting one you have dug up there. I'd hazard a guess this very thread is what prompted the introduction of TC in the first place (although we'll need confirmation on that from wwfan.) Some very prominent users sticking up for the slider interface there

[Sussex Hammer]

Well I just performed an interesting experiment on mentality. I play a 41221 (451) formation with a global mentality with a team mentality one notch above normal. Played two games with the striker on an individual highest mentality possible in first halves and as per the team mentality in the second haves. Saw absolutely no difference whatsoever on how he performed according to the heat maps, if anything he was slightly further forward than his team mates when on the "lower team mentality". All very bizarre!!

[Cleon]

Well I just performed an interesting experiment on mentality. I play a 41221 (451) formation with a global mentality with a team mentality one notch above normal. Played two games with the striker on an individual highest mentality possible in first halves and as per the team mentality in the second haves. Saw absolutely no difference whatsoever on how he performed according to the heat maps, if anything he was slightly further forward than his team mates when on the "lower team mentality". All very bizarre!!

It all depends on the oppositions d-line too and how aggressive they are at closing you down. If they used a DMC etc.

[kevin3]

Awesome Kevin.

When changed the mentality structure did you also change the CF structure ?

Linking mentality with runs from deep, do you think is plausible to link CF with run with ball ? I am asking because a player that runs with ball will most likely use dribling, shooting...

I don't really see the link between CF and run with ball and I think you might be over-thinking things a little.

CF will encourage/discourage flair and high levels will allow a player to be free-er in their decision-making. I said free-er because it depends on the make-up of the player on how he decides to use that freedom you have given him. Max CF on a low flair CB is not the same as max CF on Messi, largely due to the difference in flair, but that's not to say you can't give a low flair CB max CF or that you must give Messi max CF.

The impact of CF can mean different things for different players so I think it's best to base it on the manager's philosophy; If you want your players to act like robots and follow your instructions strictly then give low CF, if you want your players to express themselves and decide their own choices then give high CF, and if you want something in between then go for mixed CF.

In my Barca team I prefer mixed CF throughout the team, including Messi; I don't want my players thinking that they can play as individuals and decide whatever they want, but nor do I want to stifle their creativity to the point where they act like machines. I want them to know that their is a game-plan that I expect them to follow, but that it can be improvised upon when they feel it is right to.

Taking your idea into account what would happen with players with higher or lower mentality but with runs from deep set to rarely ?

Depending on what other instructions you have given him, it will most likely lead to more forward/backward passing.

Basically fluid with Messi as a TQ.

Personally, I would go with Balanced as that allows full-backs with an attack duty to get forward more. The Balanced and Fluid strategies are actually very similar to the mentality structure I had set for my midfielders and forwards, provided that the duties were the same.

[Sussex Hammer]

It all depends on the oppositions d-line too and how aggressive they are at closing you down. If they used a DMC etc.

Well the game has decided that both Spurs and Chelsea used a 4-3-3 according to their formation screen!!!!!!

However,,,, First game was a home match against Spurs who played the same as me 41221, 433 or 451 whatever you like to call it ! and Chelsea away they played 4-2-3-1 with two central midfielders rather than DM's.

No idea why both formations were down as 4-3-3!!! It can get confusing, when I play 433/451 the media call it a 41221 but when opposition plays it it's down as a 433 and Chelsea's is a clear 4231 but it's down as a 433 and we wonder why people get confused!!!!

Anyway funny thing was I alternated strikers so Maiga played first half of first game and second half of second game whereas Gamiero did the opposite. Both are totally different players, Maiga static with back to goal and Gamiero moves into channels and runs of last shoulder but position the same on the heat map and most stats like runs etc the same, still quite odd I find.

[miguelalves]

I don't really see the link between CF and run with ball and I think you might be over-thinking things a little.

CF will encourage/discourage flair and high levels will allow a player to be free-er in their decision-making. I said free-er because it depends on the make-up of the player on how he decides to use that freedom you have given him. Max CF on a low flair CB is not the same as max CF on Messi, largely due to the difference in flair, but that's not to say you can't give a low flair CB max CF or that you must give Messi max CF.

The impact of CF can mean different things for different players so I think it's best to base it on the manager's philosophy; If you want your players to act like robots and follow your instructions strictly then give low CF, if you want your players to express themselves and decide their own choices then give high CF, and if you want something in between then go for mixed CF.

In my Barca team I prefer mixed CF throughout the team, including Messi; I don't want my players thinking that they can play as individuals and decide whatever they want, but nor do I want to stifle their creativity to the point where they act like machines. I want them to know that their is a game-plan that I expect them to follow, but that it can be improvised upon when they feel it is right to.

Depending on what other instructions you have given him, it will most likely lead to more forward/backward passing.

Personally, I would go with Balanced as that allows full-backs with an attack duty to get forward more. The Balanced and Fluid strategies are actually very similar to the mentality structure I had set for my midfielders and forwards, provided that the duties were the same.

Nice, more clues.

As I said, the idea with this thread was not to find the best settings but to understand the player behaviour. Only then is up to us to decide what behaviour is more appropriate to our team.

[wwfan]

Interesting one you have dug up there. I'd hazard a guess this very thread is what prompted the introduction of TC in the first place (although we'll need confirmation on that from wwfan.) Some very prominent users sticking up for the slider interface there

From memory, it was already in development, but we couldn't say anything. Paul's comments hint as much.

[wwfan]

Well I just performed an interesting experiment on mentality. I play a 41221 (451) formation with a global mentality with a team mentality one notch above normal. Played two games with the striker on an individual highest mentality possible in first halves and as per the team mentality in the second haves. Saw absolutely no difference whatsoever on how he performed according to the heat maps, if anything he was slightly further forward than his team mates when on the "lower team mentality". All very bizarre!!

Not bizarre in the slightest. It illustrates how dynamic and relative mentality is. As I keep trying to point out, although nobody listens, thinking it is absolute is the problem.