"It's your tactics"

[thethe]

I've seen this explanation countless times on these boards. Here is a list of all my domestic defeats the last two seasons:

Juventus (a): 0-1 - chances: 12-6 (in my favour)

Fiorentina (h): 1-2 - chances: 12-6

Napoli (h): 1-2 - chances: 18-2

Pescara (a): 1-2 - chances: 9-5

Fiorentina (a): 0-1 - chances: 14-7

Parma (a): 1-2 - chances: 12-6

Udinese (a): 0-1 - chances 5-3

Palermo (a): 1-3 - chances 10-6

Reggina (a): 0-1 - chances: 18-4

Atalanta (a): 1-2 - chances: 6-4

Cesena (a): 1-3 - chances: 19-4

Fiorentina (h): 0-2 -chances: 14-7

Why does this keep happening? My tactics how? I'm the superior team in every single game I play, but these defeats still force their way through through absurd goals, penalties and strikers doing everything they can to squander chances and possession by finishing from 70 yards. I'm probably no tactical mastermind, but I would regard myself an above average player, and I really don't see it. I'm not performing poorly - I never do -, but I somehow still lose. I'm asking, genuinely: My tactics how? How do I prevent this from happening? I've never had the same problem in the Champions League, Europa League or Coppa italia.

[SeanNUFC]

People would need more info, such as the tactic/strategy/team instructions you are using.

[Puni]

How should we know if we don't know what setup you're using? Just for the record, shots do not equal chances in my book. If you're getting shots from too far out, you either have long shots turned up too high or your players don't have any playing options when going forward, which makes them shoot from distance.

EDIT: Sean beat me to it.

[wwfan]

Reading the Match: As many frequenters of these forums are undoubtedly aware, Football Manager's ME has long been criticised by a vocal minority as being inherently unfair. The gist of this argument is that while they can accept that teams lose matches in which they've dominated possession and the shot count, it happens far too often in FM. On most occasions, these people are losing slightly over a handful of matches this way per season. Out of this argument come theories about AI super-keepers, a cheating AI, the AI "knowing" and "cracking" your tactic, matches being pre-determined as it is "just time you lost", etc, etc.

CCCs: Thanks to OPTA, we know that most players convert less than 50% of their CCCs. Of the 33 players having 10 or more CCCs in last season's EPL, only 8 scored with 50% or more of them. In contrast, 11 converted 30% or less. Further, some strikers are almost completely reliant on CCCs for their goals, normally Target Man or Poacher types. As we've explained in these forums for FM13, that is one reason why they generally don't make good lone forwards. In contrast, as page two of the article illustrates, more complete strikers can fashion chances out of nothing.

In this Guardian article, OPTA even go so far as to determine a probability conversion for each chance. In a match in which Newcastle outshot Reading by 16 to 7 and had 56% of possession, they lost 2-1. The OPTA analyst suggests that Reading deserved to win, for they had the two best chances in the match with a 49% and 69% probability of conversion, compared to Newcastle's best chance, which had a 34% probability. In actuality, Reading won because they scored from a 17% probability chance. Across the match the data suggested Reading should score 1.6 goals and Newcastle 1.4, so the 2-1 result was a fair one. Whereas FM doesn't yet have that level of analysis, an educated subjective eye on the match analysis screen should be a good substitute.

Possession: Thanks to OPTA stats and The Guardian, we have exact knowledge of how often a team wins when having more possession (57%) and more shots (71%). Even if you always dominate the shot count, over a 60 match season you should expect to fail to win circa 18 times. Obviously, you will win some matches very easily. The key to being good at FM is not those matches, but reducing this 30-40% figure to one that will ensure you win some trophies.

A Holistic Approach to Tactics: Doing that takes a holistic approach. You must have good strategic skills and manage your squad so you buy the right players and keep them fit for the right matches. You must have good tactical skills and make the correct pre and in match decisions to ensure that the conditions, opposition players and formation, and the narrative of the match are under your control as often as possible. You must have good man and media management skills to ensure as many of your players as possible are mentally prepared for the game, extending your streaks and preventing slumps.

We've long argued that a subjective and contextual reading of a match is far more important than a statistical one (at least at FM's statistical level). We now have the data to back that up. You need to understand what is going on at a tactical and motivational level, not merely keep possession high and count shots. That only goes so far. Learning to win on the counter, in horrible conditions, against teams that park the bus, and when your players are nervous or frustrated is part of the management experience. Grasp that and you will master FM.

Winning and Losing Streaks: You embark on winning and losing streaks because you do not make logical tactical changes and/or are not god enough at other aspects of the game, such as media and man management. No matter how good your tactics, at some point, the players will play better or worse than expected. If they player better than expected, and you turn it into a win, morale will go up and you should be able to turn it into a streak. That's the easy part. If they play worse than expected, you firstly need to try to turn things around at half time and turn a draw into a win or a loss into a draw. If that fails, you need to have a man/media management strategy that stops the bad performance turning into a slump. If you don't have that, then you will consistently experience seemingly random winning and losing streaks. At other times, you will simply lose to the better team. You need to work out how to stop that defeat from badly affecting your players, so you can forget about it and move on. Again, a poor managerial strategy here can knock onto a losing streak.

[thethe]

People would need more info, such as the tactic/strategy/team instructions you are using.

How should we know if we don't know what setup you're using? Just for the record, shots do not equal chances in my book. If you're getting shots from too far out, you either have long shots turned up too high or your players don't have any playing options when going forward, which makes them shoot from distance.

EDIT: Sean beat me to it.

Yes, but I don't necessarily want you to fix it for me; I want pointers, and to know what I should look for. Long shots are turned down to the lowest possible, I've turned the tempo down to prevent rush decisions and there are plenty of options - both on the flanks and ahead. They still finish from distance.

As I said: I don't mind a challenge, and it's not about being a sore loser. These are defeats that, to me, makes no sense. I just lost 1-0 at home to Torino. Torino scored by overhitting a long pass towards my goal. My centre half runs towards my goal, heads the ball with the back of his head straight to T's striker, inside the box, and my goalkeeper sprints away from the goal line, making it an even easier chance to convert. It's these goals that shouldn't be. I'm not necessarily saying the AI's got an unfair advantage, or that the game has decided it's my turn to lose, but I can't see how this is caused by my tactics.

wwfan: Media strategy how? I've attended three press conferences during the entire save (after being hired, after my first Serie A title and after winning the CL), as this is a part of the game I feel slightly uncomfortable with. Should I start attending these? Wouldn't having a top assistant manager still cover this? Should I talk to the press about the next opponent's manager? Should I start arranging more team meetings, even when I'm on a decent streak?

[Puni]

We still can't give you pointers as to what's going wrong since it could be pretty much anything if we don't have any details to go on.

[Cleon]

If you're not willing to post up what settings you use and been all cryptic then the thread is useless and I'll close it. You are wanting help yet been all secretive. Either post the stuff people ask for to help them offer you pointers and advice or its a waste of time anyone even trying to help.

Either way its your choice. Post more details or seek the help elsewhere.

[Back to Earth]

Cleon - your attitude towards those who are struggling and a bit frustrated undermines the sense of community we should expect. I was very disappointed with your peformance on one of my own threads seeking help. People are struggling. A bit of understanding and help is needed. "Constructive".

To the op - I also was struggling a lot and getting very frustrated. What furstrated me most was one thread would say one thing and another would contradict it.

My advice is to look at wwfan's 12 point guide and keep his points in mind. I have found him to be very helpful. Also check out guide to football manager (just google that).

Measure your squad against others in the division. Pick a tactic and play your players in their best positions. Pay a lot of attention to decision making and creative freedom. Play more free and attacking at home, tighther and counter away. Check for contradictions - eg if you have fluid control, no point playing with low creative freedom. If you play fuild control, no point having ball winning midfielders; if you play short, no point in target men. If you play one up front, make him DLF Support. Watch for weather conditions - if pitch and weather is crap - short passing and counter may be difficult. The most important thing is to avoid your players being isolated. Check the post match analysis, especially shots. If you are taking loads of shots outside the box - get fixing. What you will find is that the oppo are having a few good chances and you may be having a lot of outside chances. You need to look at getting build up and suport into your attack if you are taking too many long shots. This was my main source of concern. Some posters are very helpful, some aren't

Post your player set up etc and how you play, whether you use touch line shouts etc. If you can't do screen shot, just type how you set up your team. My experience is that all posts are intended to help (one notable exception in my case).

Good luck - keep patient!

[Cleon]

Cleon - your attitude towards those who are struggling and a bit frustrated undermines the sense of community we should expect. People are struggling. A bit of understanding and help is needed. "Constructive".

Then people should post details if they want helpful responses. There is no excuse for been lazy and not providing details especially when it clearly states in the forum rules and there is a topic at the top of the very forum highlighting what details are needed etc. This is the tactics forum, so when people are seeking help they should be specific about exactly what they need help with and post up information of what settings they use etc. That way myself and others are able to offer advice without guessing. If people want constructive then post details, without them threads have always been closed and this will continue to be the case. I don't care if you or others don't like my attitude it doesn't really bother me, I'm not here to make friends. I'm here to help and I and others aren't able to do that without specific and details. I know I sound an arse and it makes me look bad but the rules are in place so the user gets the best help possible, its not for my benefit .

But anyway, if you want to carry on the pettyness because I had a run in with you in your own thread, PM me.

[thethe]

-Forget the passage I posted here. Just want my tactics to work. I apologise for not following the rules for opening posts.-

Tried uploading it here, but it wouldn't work. (Error #2038). I'll just post links.

Tactic 1: http://i.imgur.com/pv5c9Wb.png

Instructions: http://i.imgur.com/htqhwUG.png

Tactic 2: http://i.imgur.com/GMwGlKx.png

Inst.: http://i.imgur.com/KQwQb6U.png

Tactic 3: http://i.imgur.com/qlmvPyv.png

Inst.: http://i.imgur.com/rjJHIcx.png (I've moved the DM [Aybek] up into attack, replacing him with Sanchez (deep lying) against lesser teams, playing with two ball winning midfielders instead.)

Obviously adjustable game by game and through shouts, but that's roughly my starting point. I've mostly used the 4-4-2 against stronger or equal opposition in the CL, with success, and mostly the 5-3-2 in the domestic league. I've experimented with two centre halfs recently against the strong teams, doing fairly well, but I feel I master those games anyway. It's the weaker teams I mostly lose against. I beat Juventus 5-0, but then lose 1-3 to Fiorentina weeks later. Those are the games I need help with.

My tactics can't be that bad? I won the CL and Coppa Italia last season, and all three follow-up tournaments (both supercups and the World Cup), so they surely can't be awful? I've won the Serie A twice, too, but I've lost the title three years in a row now due to the defeats mentioned earlier. All titles have been won with this ME, so it's not that the tactics got lost between ME builds.

Any pointers? Appreciated.

[Guest]

Cleon is right, and helps countless people with contructive help but that OP is no use whatsoever. It is not like the mods have not put up a very clear instruction of what is required if people need help.

[Cleon]

Right. I'm not really being secretive, though, it's just that I want the challenge rather than having the answer handed to me. I still apologise for the iconvenience. Screenshots below.

No need to apologise. We need to know the settings not to spoon feed you anything, but so we know more about how you play and what the issues could be. Without them its just one big guess and the info anyone offers you is pointless because it would be a meaningless guess

Tactic 1: http://i.imgur.com/pv5c9Wb.png

Instructions: http://i.imgur.com/htqhwUG.png

Both the central MC's have the same role and duty, so at times you might see them both going for the same ball and this can cause massive problems. Especially when you need the MC's hold their position so they can cover the middle and side threats.

Now, if you are a good side you'll find most teams will counter attack you which could be a major issue and a reason why you think you dominate some games yet still lose.

Actually looking at the other set ups this could be a major reason as to why.

The reason why I think you are struggling is you are no longer an average side and are a very good one now. So against the big sides who are of similar rep they'll still allow you space to play your normal game because they will be attacking you. Against the lesser sides they'll sit back more and be harder to break down. Now, if you are relentless in attacks then you will be the one leaving lots of space for the opposition to counter attack. This can catch you out regardless of how good you are. If you allow teams space and time and allow them to out number you, then you always risk shipping in a goal no matter how much you've dominated.

Your tactics aren't bad its just things have changed since the earlier seasons and now you need to create space rather than relying on the opposition giving you the space.

Being attacking isn't always as attacking as you'd think. You should maybe use a control/balance strategy instead against the weaker sides imo.

Also what kind of shouts are you using to try and win games in the easier games that you should be winning?

[Back to Earth]

the the - one point that might be of help - if you are pressing more and your only wing players are your full backs, if the oppo have a wide midfielder and a wing back overlapping you have a problem. If your full back commits to the winger and their full backs overlap, your exposed. I wonder if stand off more would be better?

[RTHerringbone]

Tactics 1 and 2 are essentially the same (Strategy change and wing back changes only), and are very similar to one I used to great effect.

In my opinion, your issues lie with the Duties of your wingbacks, and the roles and duties of your MCs and AMC.

Everything depends on how you want to play but a narrow diamond has no width unless you really encourage your wing backs to attack.

With a DM role, you have sufficient cover for at least one of them to have an Attack Duty.

Two BBMs is excessive, you need something more creative and controlled in the MC strata to intelligently distribute the ball after receiving it from the DM.

I would consider a Playmaker role of some sort here; look at the setting of DLP and AP roles with Defend and Support Duties to see what fits best.

The greatest success of my narrow diamond has been the movement of the strikers (set up like yours) clearing space for an appropriate role and duty in the AMC line to exploit. Look at the more aggressive attacking roles in the AMC line and see what you can muster.

Haven't looked at the other tactic, but these changes to your 4-1-2-1-2 should help improve things tactically, it is then down to how you analyse the opposition, set up strategy and morale (via team talks) in advance of the game, and respond during the game.

[SnUrF]

Both the central MC's have the same role and duty, so at times you might see them both going for the same ball and this can cause massive problems. Especially when you need the MC's hold their position so they can cover the middle and side threats.

How do you see the difference in the players' attributes and PPMs etc. compared to roles in this? Also even tho they are CMs, still one is CMl and the other is CMr so the have different starting position to every game situation.

-SnUrF

[Cleon]

How do you see the difference in the players' attributes and PPMs etc. compared to roles in this? Also even tho they are CMs, still one is CMl and the other is CMr so the have different starting position to every game situation.

-SnUrF

There not far enough apart, surely you've seen this when you've watched games? So when an opposition player is in the middle of them both they'll both go for the same person, the same things happens when both your CB's are the same too. They'll get dragged out of position. Plus the fact he used 2 BWM's doesn't help because they have high closing down and charge around like headless chickens which isn't what you want any 2 man midfield doing.

PPM's make no difference either because his MC's wont have the ball as I'm on about when hes defending. So starting positions when defending will be identical morealess. Just the same as attributes don't really impact starting positions, so not quite sure of the point you tried to make?

I bet if you looked back over the games played this happens in every single game and sometimes a lot. I'd put my life on it I'm that confident.

[SnUrF]

I have no reason to doubt your insight on the matter Cleon, but remember reading here how different players play differently even when given the same instructions. So if player A (let's call him Diakite ) would have higher work rate and aggression than player B (perhaps we'll call him Taarabt ), would Diakite end up closing down more than Taarabt, even tho they have the same instructions and they play quite close to each other.

And what if it was 3 MCs, would the outer MCs be far away enough to be used effectively with same role & duty.

And a tiny correction (doubt it really makes any difference) but the tactic 1 used 2 BBMs not BWMs and T2 & T3 used BBM with BWM.

-SnUrF

[wwfan]

wwfan: Media strategy how? I've attended three press conferences during the entire save (after being hired, after my first Serie A title and after winning the CL), as this is a part of the game I feel slightly uncomfortable with. Should I start attending these? Wouldn't having a top assistant manager still cover this? Should I talk to the press about the next opponent's manager? Should I start arranging more team meetings, even when I'm on a decent streak?

It is up to you how you approach it. You need to work out whether nerves or complacency cause the bad performance, how often they kick in and try to predict, pre-empt and prevent occurrences. This might mean some media interaction, when you want to cast more doubt or build up more expectation than usual.

As my previous post details, you don't have a serious tactical problem. You have a man-management problem and no Plan B to put into effect when your players aren't scoring (which is a minor tactical issue related to in-match decision making, not the logical coherence of your general tactical approach). You are asking the wrong question, and thus getting the wrong answers. You have a good team and good base tactic. You merely need to work out how to deal with the bad days. That does not mean changing around your core system, but developing a motivation strategy to reduce bad days, and a Plan B to tactically cope with them when they do happen. Plan B could be a formation change, a strategy change, or a shout combo.

Ultimately, it is up to you to identify who has bad days and why, and then work out some options to prevent them. Do not make the mistake of thinking you need to rework your base tactic. It's fine. It gets the 60-70% of results you are after. You just need to work out what to do in the small percentage of matches when it isn't working. That means dynamic and logical decision making in the match and a more sophisticated understanding of the morale and motivation make-up of your squad.

[lemeures]

I have no reason to doubt your insight on the matter Cleon, but remember reading here how different players play differently even when given the same instructions. So if player A (let's call him Diakite ) would have higher work rate and aggression than player B (perhaps we'll call him Taarabt ), would Diakite end up closing down more than Taarabt, even tho they have the same instructions and they play quite close to each other.

I would imagine there would be a slight difference, but the point she is making (I think) is that they have roughly the same starting position and will both be drawn towards the player with the ball, and given that BBMs will be up supporting play, they will most likely be high up the pitch when they do so leaving a huge gap in midfield. If the defensive midfielder doesnt get to ball first he is easily out numbered

And a tiny correction (doubt it really makes any difference) but the tactic 1 used 2 BBMs not BWMs and T2 & T3 used BBM with BWM

Both BBMs and BWMs will be closing down similarly, so there will be very little difference in my opinion

[thethe]

Pay a lot of attention to decision making and creative freedom. Play more free and attacking at home, tighther and counter away. Check for contradictions - eg if you have fluid control, no point playing with low creative freedom. If you play fuild control, no point having ball winning midfielders; if you play short, no point in target men. If you play one up front, make him DLF Support. Watch for weather conditions - if pitch and weather is crap - short passing and counter may be difficult. The most important thing is to avoid your players being isolated. Check the post match analysis, especially shots. If you are taking loads of shots outside the box - get fixing. What you will find is that the oppo are having a few good chances and you may be having a lot of outside chances. You need to look at getting build up and suport into your attack if you are taking too many long shots. This was my main source of concern.

Now, if you are a good side you'll find most teams will counter attack you which could be a major issue and a reason why you think you dominate some games yet still lose.

Actually looking at the other set ups this could be a major reason as to why.

The reason why I think you are struggling is you are no longer an average side and are a very good one now. So against the big sides who are of similar rep they'll still allow you space to play your normal game because they will be attacking you. Against the lesser sides they'll sit back more and be harder to break down. Now, if you are relentless in attacks then you will be the one leaving lots of space for the opposition to counter attack. This can catch you out regardless of how good you are. If you allow teams space and time and allow them to out number you, then you always risk shipping in a goal no matter how much you've dominated.

Your tactics aren't bad its just things have changed since the earlier seasons and now you need to create space rather than relying on the opposition giving you the space.

I see what Cleon mean about thinking I dominate games I still end up losing. I still think I dominated those games, but I can see that it's an inefficient and not very constructive way to dominate a game.

I've made some adjustments. Even against the weakest teams in the league, I sometimes play with Standard or Defensive as strategy. I'm more aware of the opponent's tactics both before and during the match, being more likely to adjust rather than hoping I'll still get a lucky win. I rely more on link-up play and overlapping wingbacks than before, which helps me cut through tight defences rather than using brutal force. Away from home, I mostly counter, and sit and wait for the spaces to open up. I've played 17 league games so far, finishing the first half of the season like this: http://i.imgur.com/iYFhaCN.png

I just beat both Juventus and Milan 3-0, and Cesena and Atalanta earlier this season, 4-0 and 6-0, respectively, so I'm still performing against the strongest teams too.

That single draw was against Torino (0-0, at home). I used tactic 3 in that game, before switching to T2 at half time. They played a standard 4-4-2. I'm aware of the weaknesses of both tactics (and arguably T1 too) against teams using both fullbacks and wingers (because of the point Back to Earth is making), so I'm wondering what would be the best way to handle this? I had no problems defensively in this match, but my wingbacks struggled to find space to create anything of importance, and it was back to "using brutal force" and hopeless long shots. One formation I've tried on occasions, for matches like this, is a 4-2-3-1, with two central midfielders, one attacking, two attacking wingers and one striker, but I've never succeeded with this in Italy. It's slightly frustrating, as it is my preferred formation. I would use supporting wingbacks, one BWM and one CM, two wingers (not inverting), an AP and a Complete forward, but I literally lose more or less every time I try.

Two BBMs is excessive, you need something more creative and controlled in the MC strata to intelligently distribute the ball after receiving it from the DM. I would consider a Playmaker role of some sort here; look at the setting of DLP and AP roles with Defend and Support Duties to see what fits best.

The greatest success of my narrow diamond has been the movement of the strikers (set up like yours) clearing space for an appropriate role and duty in the AMC line to exploit. Look at the more aggressive attacking roles in the AMC line and see what you can muster.

I'm now using a playmaker instead; DLP together with a BBM, and supporting AP with a BWM, depending on the opposition. I've made the AMC an inside forward, and both strikers are CF (supporting and attacking). Both (wing)backs are still mostly supporting, but the three up front + the playmaker usually create what I need.

It is up to you how you approach it. You need to work out whether nerves or complacency cause the bad performance, how often they kick in and try to predict, pre-empt and prevent occurrences. This might mean some media interaction, when you want to cast more doubt or build up more expectation than usual.

Ultimately, it is up to you to identify who has bad days and why, and then work out some options to prevent them. Do not make the mistake of thinking you need to rework your base tactic. It's fine. It gets the 60-70% of results you are after. You just need to work out what to do in the small percentage of matches when it isn't working. That means dynamic and logical decision making in the match and a more sophisticated understanding of the morale and motivation make-up of your squad.

Paying a lot of attention to this this season. My assistant still handles the scheduled press conferences, but I do talk to journalists about managers and players before every game. I've also sold a few big profiles (Fierro, Vidal, Sanchez, Niang, Caprari) and replaced them with fringe players from smaller teams. I don't know if too many big personalities in the squad can be a problem unless they're explicitly unhappy, but they're gone nevertheless, and my results haven't exactly suffered. Arranging team meetings more often, too, despite the very good results.

[Guest]

Bravo to you for turning it around and working it out, your analysis of how you turned it around is a big help to others as well. A thread like this should be highlighted to anyone that thinks the game is broken

[wwfan]

It's amazing how paying attentions to the workings of the club and the match, or, as I like to call it, managing, makes such a difference

[thethe]

End of the season: http://i.imgur.com/knCJ6Z8.png

Draws against Torino, Sampdoria and Genoa (home, away, away), and defeats against Cesena and Modena (home and away).

Satisfied. Won the Coppa Italia, but lost in the first elimination round in the Champions League, against Bayern. Red card and own goal at play there, so a case of bad luck, mostly.

Still not 100 % comfortable against 4-4-2, but I've had some success with a 4-4-1-1 (supporting wingers, supporting bwm, supporting cm, attacking AP and attacking CF).

Thanks to all of you for your advice.

[Guest]

I think you set high standards for yourself? You are Inter right? Lost just two games scored 100 goals, conceded just 16 Goals and racked up over 100 points should be elated no?