Skill VS Mistakes

[skipping pig]

One thing I have noticed about FM13 is that the vast majority of goals I conceded seem to be as a result of mistakes from my players. Relativity few seem to come from opposition players skillfully crafting good goals. Rather I concede as a result of my normally level-headed players going bat **** bonkers and doing something that no professional footballer would ever contemplate.

This ranges from just watching the ball trundle past their feet before the opposition player who has raced 40 yards to get it tucks the ball away. Or players with the ball at their feet slowly dribbling back towards their own goal, ignoring unmarked teammates, and subsequently getting dispossessed by the two harrying strikers who then have a one-on-one chance against my keeper.

So out of interest do other players notice the same thing, and what proportion of the goals you concede come as a result of the skill of the opponents as opposed to unrealistic mistakes from your own players?

[soccer.joel]

Some come from skill, others from mistakes like in real life

[Herbert Fandel]

telling lack of a middle option.

[akuji2012]

its you're tactics

[skipping pig]

It's not my tactics

A case in point is this goal that I have just conceded:

If anyone can tell me which slider I need to adjust to prevent this sort of thing from happening, then I'm all ears!

[Puni]

Nothing you can do to prevent that, except for buying a better central defender. This happens, also in real life.

[OxfordUnitedFC]

Pretty much any goal IRL is preventable if the defenders make the correct decisions, there's usually always a mistake in there somewhere.

[Barkermush]

Speaking of skill, I'm still waiting for the 'tries tricks' ppm to be enabled again.

But then again, with the current match engine's since they disabled it, players like Taarabt on FM would probably destroy all Leagues with this ppm, so I can't see them re-enabling it anytime soon.

Do we even have 'likes to beat man repeatedly' or 'gets crowd going' ppm's anymore either? (yet to see any players with these ppm's.. I can't remember the last time I saw them either, at least 4 versions ago.)

Miss the days when you had a really skillfull flair player, who had these sort of ppm's.

[duduric]

You can still set them in the editor, I think... not sure if they still work though.

[scooterSB]

The question and the poll is massively subjective, if the question were flipped and you asked 'most goals I SCORE are a result of...' you would large ignore defensive errors from opposing team and focus on your own teams great skill.

It's not my tactics

A case in point is this goal that I have just conceded:

If anyone can tell me which slider I need to adjust to prevent this sort of thing from happening, then I'm all ears!

If your ream had been the one scoring this goal (and I have both scored and conceded similar) you would be praising your striker for being at the right place at the right time and capitalizing on the mistake and that at one-on-one 'he still had it all to do'.

As for preventing this kind of goal, there's not much you can do other than have better defenders, and ones with better passing ability. At the end of the these kind of goals will always happen from time to time.

There is however one simple and time tested solution to conceding sloppy goals.....

Turn around and score two in the other end!

If you have already put 2 or 3 past your opponents it simply wont matter if you score an own goal or conceded from a defensive error.

[wwfan]

It's not my tactics

A case in point is this goal that I have just conceded:

If anyone can tell me which slider I need to adjust to prevent this sort of thing from happening, then I'm all ears!

That's definitely tactical. You are passing the ball short around the back but your midfield line is moving aggressively upfield. You leave him totally isolated with no passing options. He then makes a suicide pass to avoid being caught in possession.

All kind of things you could do to prevent it.

1: Increase passing length

2: Give the DCs more CF

3: Lower mentality

4: Make sure players stay back to pick up short passes by reducing FWRs

5: Play narrower shout

[BiggusD]

That's definitely tactical. You are passing the ball short around the back but your midfield line is moving aggressively upfield. You leave him totally isolated with no passing options. He then makes a suicide pass to avoid being caught in possession.

All kind of things you could do to prevent it.

1: Increase passing length

2: Give the DCs more CF

3: Lower mentality

4: Make sure players stay back to pick up short passes by reducing FWRs

5: Play narrower shout

Passing back to the keeper when there are two opponents in the box is the worst possible option regardless of run and passing instructions. It is an unrealistic mistake, since Munoz has full overview of all the players in his own half and booting the ball forwards is a better option when he doesn't dare to pass to the Caldirola or the other defender, who is unmarked and available at the time of the pass. Brainfarts are of course possible, but much more likely when the player does not have a full overview of the situation and is under tougher pressure.

There are too many brainfarts in this game, and I think this is the OP's point.

[wwfan]

I didn't suggest it was good play and it is obviously a mistake. However, it is as clear as day as to why it happened. The player ran out of options and played a bad semi-blind backpass to the keeper. This is likely to be caused by minimal CF, very short passing and the players in front of him having a very attacking mentality.

[BiggusD]

I didn't suggest it was good play and it is obviously a mistake. However, it is as clear as day as to why it happened. The player ran out of options and played a bad semi-blind backpass to the keeper. This is likely to be caused by minimal CF, very short passing and the players in front of him having a very attacking mentality.

I didn't suggest you suggested it was a good play

My point is that even if he ran out of options passing back to the keeper is the worst possible solution. What could he do but boot it up/out anyways? There are simply put too many backpasses in FM13!

[skipping pig]

I posted that particular example simply because it occurred immediately after I started the thread and seemed to typify exactly what I am getting at. I disagree with wwfan regarding the example illustrated; the player had myriad options.

Boot the ball up the pitch

Knock it out for a throw

Give it back to Tiote

Diagonal ball to the right back in acres of space

Actually pass it back to the keeper, rather than to the imaginary player in the middle of the box...

Of course incidents like this, and worse, happen IRL. The difference is that stupid mistakes happen far too regularly in the game. I never play with the same tactic for very long and even two diametrically opposed set of instructions result in the same ridiculous mistakes occurring.

Basically it doesn't matter what your tactics are, there is still a disproportional number of unrealistic moments of madness from otherwise top class players.

In reply to scooterSB's point, no I don't really enjoy seeing my team profit from such occurrences. I'd rather see nice attacking phases of play (which the match engine is more than capable of generating) than constant goals that capitalise on mistakes. The regularity of such illogical instances mealy serves to break the illusion that one is watching a game of football, and for no apparent reason.

[Puni]

Most goals in real life football consist of seizing on opponent's mistakes. The most common ones are probably being caught in possession or a defender losing his man.

As for this specific case, how can he boot it up the pitch if he has short passing set and his CF set to low (which means he needs to stick to his instructions). He could have booted it out, but he probably thought the passing line to his goalie was clear. Obviously, it wasn't, but I've seen this happen before. Diagonal ball is risky and would probably require direct passing. I can hardly imagine a team conceding more than a few goals per season like this. If it happens more often, I'd like to see some footage of it.

[jujigatame]

I think my biggest problem with the ME right now has to do with goals resulting from headed clearances. Headed clearances seem completely aimless sometimes. They often can't even be called "clearances" as they are sent across the goal mouth or directly into the path of an onrushing attacker. I can understand the very occasional instance where a defender tries to head the ball back to the keeper and misjudges the force required and gives an attacker a gift, but the amount of defensive headers that seem completely inexplicable in their direction and purpose is too high right now.

[Gazza88]

I think the game should describe the mistakes made.

Eg

Player A scored after player B slipped in the box

Or

Player A scored after player B mistimed his tackle/pass

Those are the mistakes and the skills would be outpacing the opposition or just getting there sooner. Taking a player on or a defence splitting pass.

[scott MUFC]

mosty set pieces so hard to put it exactly

[wwfan]

I posted that particular example simply because it occurred immediately after I started the thread and seemed to typify exactly what I am getting at. I disagree with wwfan regarding the example illustrated; the player had myriad options.

Boot the ball up the pitch

Knock it out for a throw

Give it back to Tiote

Diagonal ball to the right back in acres of space

Actually pass it back to the keeper, rather than to the imaginary player in the middle of the box...

Of course incidents like this, and worse, happen IRL. The difference is that stupid mistakes happen far too regularly in the game. I never play with the same tactic for very long and even two diametrically opposed set of instructions result in the same ridiculous mistakes occurring.

He doesn't have one easy option. The key question is what were your tactical instructions? He'll probably be following them which is why he tried the short pass to the keeper.

The problems with people posting things like this is that a) they aren't looking closely at the game and b) they aren't paying attention to the fact that the player is probably trying to do what they told him to do in a difficult situation. Suggesting the player had a myriad of options is crazy. As he gets the ball, the pass to the wing is not on because the player is marked. Once he turns inside, everybody else is marked. He could play a difficult pass between the Norwich players and he might try it with the right tactical instructions. He might boot it with the right tactical instructions. However, he held onto the ball and played it back to the keeper. That suggests short passing, low CF, wide width and no players in midfield staying deep to support him.

My point is that it won't happen, or happen very, very rarely, with good tactical instructions. If your players do things like that on a regular basis, it will be because he is doing what he is told to do in an incoherent system.

[KevMaaan]

Tbh, ive only noticed hugo lloris take a shoddy goal kick that barely reaches kaboul, to have whoever's striker run straight on to it and score an easy goal 3 times, the rest lloris saves it. It used to annoy me untill i was awarded 3 penalties (2 of which were not penalties) in the europa league final.

Swings and roundabouts.

[Rowly]

I think the arugment is that this type of mistake happens an awful lot in a season, in my Wigan Robin Park game I conceded 7/8 goals just from my goalkeeper throwing them the ball. I did eveyrthing I could to avoid it happening. At that level, htey are told not to **** about and just hoof it forward, so it would happen even less than at the higher level.

Mistakes like that happen (Yobo once did it for Rooney to tap in his goal at Goodison Park in a United shirt), but very occasionally, not every other or three/four games.

[wwfan]

All well and good, but my argument, based on it not happening to me more than once in a blue moon, is that reoccurring mistakes by players are the result of tactical settings. You can say "he shouldn't do that", but if your settings are telling him to do that, he's going to continue doing that.

[Bobble2002]

One of the big reasons why i went back to FM12 . i just cannot put up any more with the excessive number of times players make the stupidest decision available . I could accept it occasionally but when you get supposedly world class players doing it every couple of games it makes it all a joke whether its for you or against you

[Herbert Fandel]

One of the big reasons why i went back to FM12 . i just cannot put up any more with the excessive number of times players make the stupidest decision available . I could accept it occasionally but when you get supposedly world class players doing it every couple of games it makes it all a joke whether its for you or against you

I find FM 12 to be equally as full of this, but with added players ghosting through each other added on.

FM 13 having some areas in need of improvement is a fact, and even one accepted of course by SI.

FM 12 being magically better is a total and utter myth, although of course you are free to enjoy it more.

[scott MUFC]

just conceded a goal from a guy dribbling through a mass of space, this space made by midfielders standing back and disobaying instructions.

[skipping pig]

I shall indeed double check what instructions the players have. IMO this shouldn't make a difference however. The instructions should act as a general guide as to how you wasn't you team to play, not what they should to do in every single situation. It may explain why one sees players knocking the ball to each other, kamikazi style on the edge of the box when there are infinity better options available. But the whole thing gets a bit silly if you therefore have a team of brain-dead zombies (seemingly ignoring their 'decisions' stat) who blindly follow their instructions regardless of the situation.

I'm playing as Notts County, but I appear to have the Nuremberg Defence...

[BiggusD]

I shall indeed double check what instructions the players have. IMO this shouldn't make a difference however. The instructions should act as a general guide as to how you wasn't you team to play, not what they should to do in every single situation. It may explain why one sees players knocking the ball to each other, kamikazi style on the edge of the box when there are infinity better options available. But the whole thing gets a bit silly if you therefore have a team of brain-dead zombies (seemingly ignoring their 'decisions' stat) who blindly follow their instructions regardless of the situation.

I'm playing as Notts County, but I appear to have the Nuremberg Defence...

As I have said before, FM13 is very very robotic. I understand why SI has made it this way; the "my instructions doesn't change anything!" -brigade won this time around. This has led to a set of very limited instruction combinations that actually work, so that most users have to resort to the "keep it simple" tagline and thus play the same way as everyone else including the AI.

[jujigatame]

The issue with decision-making is that there are 2 components to it, both of which are hard to get right:

1) The game has to consider the player's decision rating and choose one of many possible options based on it

2) The game actually has to know which option is "better" so that players with high decision ratings will actually do the right thing

So when a player intercepts a long pass with no attacker within 15 yards of him, and decides to head it out of bounds instead of controlling it and looking for passing options, the question is, did he do that because he's a low-decision rating idiot? Or did the game actually think that was the right thing to do?

[skipping pig]

=So when a player intercepts a long pass with no attacker within 15 yards of him, and decides to head it out of bounds instead of controlling it and looking for passing options, the question is, did he do that because he's a low-decision rating idiot? Or did the game actually think that was the right thing to do?

The trouble is that regardless of the explanation the problem still persists.

Don't get me wrong, I like FM13 and it's defiantly a better engine than last year (replete with players dribbling the ball out of play for absolutely no reason) but I think this goes to show that there is a long way to go yet.

It's a familiar lament but if this years revision could address the core elements of the game, rather than titting about with 'achievements, 'conference tones' and the like, then I think most people would be pretty happy.